Gender and Gender Identity

[hydrargyrum]

Even before I was properly educated about trans people, I used they as a singular pronoun all the time. I never even really thought about it. Usually when talking about a hypothetical person, but also often talking about people online who's gender either isn't displayed or I just couldn't remember.

 

I just discovered that there's a whole wikipedia article for it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they It also mentions famous authors (including Shakespeare) who used singular they in their writing.

[Fawkesian]

Also, I dislike singular they being used as personal pronoun, because it's not.

My preferred pronoun is "they". I don't see anything wrong with that. :/

All of the X pronouns never really appealed to me, and "they" seems to come more naturally to many people...

[temposhark]

I usually ask people to use they/them pronouns with me, or tell them just to use my name when referring to me if it frustrates them too much. I consider myself nonbinary/genderqueer and frequently switch between acting masculine and acting feminine.

 

The X/Z pronouns feel somewhat alien to me. I don't think people who use them are aliens or anything, I just don't like the way they feel on me.

 

On the subject of people in retail and such - it really is hard to completely avoid offense. I try to adhere to the binary at work because where I live, calling someone "they" without them specifically asking you to do so is a good way to get shot by a burly man wearing plaid and driving a chevy. Of course if someone asks me not to call them that (which has happened a few times!) I immediately correct my behavior. I always remember a face, and we get a lot of "regulars" where I work, so I know by now who I can say what to.

[Shienvien]

since i have asked about four times for an explanation as to why someone considers DFAB/DMAB a slur and have only got "well I dont like it" im just going to carry on with those terms for now.

This is a long and rather nasty topic, and in all honesty I did not have the energy of typing out the long answer to why that particular term is both scientifically incorrect and socially inflammatory.

 

I already gave my reasoning on the scientific part - it is incorrect use of the terms male/female, simple as that.

 

On the social side, where to begin? Why is any word considered offensive other than that a) it is incorrect or people have been trying to use it to insult and/or plain don't like it for whatever reason? Why is "the n-word" bad? It's just a derivative of "black"in Latin! Even more interestingly, it came to be used in order to replace a term that was, at that time, considered highly derogatory. That derogatory term that desperately needed to be replaced? "People of color" ... which is now suddenly acceptable again, despite it having been politically incorrect to the core back in the day (to be fair, I am still not fond of PoC - seems to stress "these people are not normal, these people are different" a bit too much ... I also absolutely cannot help but be reminded of a silly joke each time I see it ).

 

As for ****/**** - yes I do feel the need of censoring those things - other than the once-aspiring-biologist-part of me physically cringing at the terms, it has largely to do with the context I've seen these particular terms used, and these have, more often than not, been inflammatory, offensive to either or both cis and trans people, dripping with hatred towards either side, filled with highly subjective content which is bound to start flame wars...

The closest example I can bring is perhaps "femnazi"/"radfem" for feminists (except in this case, both sides refer to the referred side with the same term). If someone were to call me a "femnazi" I'd react the same way - I am not a femnazi, I am an equal rights supporter and as a subcategory of it, also a feminist. And sadly, nowadays I also have to explain people what feminist is or is not, since it has been rapidly losing its original meaning in people's eyes...

 

I ... don't know how much sense I am making. But yes, I *will* take offence at being called *F**, whereas I mostly don't even bother correcting people when they address me by the wrong gender unless they persist to do it for a longer time.

[Switch]

errrrrrrm im going to be honest i cant figure out what you're trying to say at all

 

femnazi is... definitely an inherently offensive term, obviously, it's in the word ... but.... i dont understand how calling someone a nazi compares to a term that literally just means that when i was born i was designated to be a female........???? i dont understand how that's inherently offensive??

 

ive literally never seen the terms used in a derogatory fashion, i always only see actual trans people using it when they're introducing or talking about themselves for whatever reason, or if they're telling stories about their transitioning......

 

but i mean, even if people do use it in a derogatory fashion, err, some people call things gay in a derogatory fashion too, i dont want to stop being able to call myself gay just because some people are gross about how they use their words. i shouldnt be the one stopped from calling myself an otherwise harmless word that totally applies to me because some people try to use it to mean something rude, they're the ones that need to be stopped. :c

 

i mean, i have seen some trans people who prefer not to call themselves that to distance themselves from what gender they were designated when they were born or just prefer not to use it for no specific reason and that's totally A-Okay

but

i think trying to call it a slur when many Actual trans people use it to talk about themselves is a bit ummmm

 

as for the scientific part are you saying again that male/female refers exclusively to sex because people use it to refer to gender all the time! thats their common usage! it's used to refer to gender more than anything.

 

like even if you want to throw a dictionary at me and say that says male refers to sex organs and blah, "boy" and "man" are also defined as being male humans, so if im a boy, im male. do not call me a girl or female or any other synonyms of it or you are going to hurt my feelings very badly. >B| definitions of words evolve sometimes!

i mean look the heckin' gender symbols on the forums even say male and female! that usage is right there! im not gonna change my symbol over to the pink one just because it says female! do you expect that all the other trans people on the forums change their symbols to the opposite ones? :U

 

and if anyone thinks calling me female isn't offensive but dfab is, a term i and many other trans people willingly use to describe ourselves, i am absolutely not okay with that and you are going to hurt my feelings very badly.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Switch

[Omega Entity]

Feminazi has very little to do with gender identity, and more to do with being a derogatory term for extreme feminists - a term that I've been guilty of using myself, when describing self-described 'feminists' (emphasis mine, as I feel that the specific group I'm talking about are about as tolerant to those that disagree with them as Westboro is to those who don't follow their doctrine). In other words, a fringe group who takes feminism to the extreme to the point of elevating women -above- men to a ridiculous extreme, rather than the original goal of putting women on a level playing field. they would also seek to silence anyone who disagrees with them, mainly by calling -any- kind of criticism as misogynistic and sexist.

 

A fair number of the third-wave generation of feminists seem to lean more and more in that direction, though it could entirely be that they're simply the most vocal - again, I point to a likeness to Westboro in this sense, in that usually the most extreme yell the loudest, and make anyone else even remotely associated with them look bad by proxy.

 

Aaaand this has gotten off-topic. Shutting my piehole now.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Omega Entity

[Shienvien]

as for the scientific part are you saying again that male/female refers exclusively to sex because people use it to refer to gender all the time! thats their common usage! it's used to refer to gender more than anything.

Yes, essentially it does. And people use it for gender because a) they don't know to differentiate between the two or actually, they mean sex, but since "sex" is a bad taboo word, they put in gender instead, even if it means something else. The forum largely falls to the second category - you might also note that no other options but the binary and blank are available, although there are far more genders.

 

For the matter, you also don't typically address people by their sex, whereas you might address by their gender. (It might be normal to say "Hey man, what's up?, but turn it into "Hey male, what's up?" and that other person might very easily take it as you borderline insulting them and be automatically predisposed against you.) In return, when you are describing their appearance/anatomy, you are more likely to use sex, since that refers to anatomy specifically. ("White male, about 185 cm tall, short blonde hair, blue eyes." - perfectly normal description, nothing wrong there.)

- As a sidenote, I have encountered plenty of people who take offence to the respective groups being described as males/females not because they feel it is incorrect, but because the terms are more commonly associated with animals and sort of seems ... to address them as to breeding stock, I guess? Walking penises/wombs, and not persons? So yes, addressing people as male/female might be looked down on for entirely other reasons than you brought out...

 

 

@Omega Entity: Yes, they are words from completely different field - I simply couldn't think of workable examples with more overlap.

 

Edit: Go away, mildly unfortunate smileys...

Edited November 10, 2014 by Shienvien

[Omega Entity]

I was actually explaining it out to Switch, since they seemed confused. I need to use the quote button more, haha

[MasterWeavile898]

So I just spent an hour trying to explain why I don't like D_AB and I can't really

 

But basically, it's for the same reason I don't like people saying "[gender] with a [sex] body" which I also can't really explain. I just... I don't see either as exactly true? And I think I've already pretty well stated that I think truth is far more important than feeling multiple times over across this site

[Switch]

well yeah, I don't like being called male with a female body either, coz it's my body and I'm a male, so it's a male's body regardless of bits and pieces ;U

 

the reason I have no problem with dfab is because it doesn't imply I or any part of me is female, just that that's what I was designated to be when I was born. Like I said, some trans people prefer not to use it, which is totally fine, but

 

@omega entity: I understand the implications and meaning of the word, thank you though ouo/ what I was really confused about is why someone thinks multiple trans people choosing to refer to themselves with a word is comparable to calling somebody else a heckin' nazi :V

[edwardelricfreak]

the reason I have no problem with dfab is because it doesn't imply I or any part of me is female, just that that's what I was designated to be when I was born. Like I said, some trans people prefer not to use it, which is totally fine, but

yeah, this is how I understand it. I can't really see how it's offensive, exactly- it's not saying that you're female or whatever NOW, just that at birth you were described as that. :U

 

Course I still won't use it for people who don't want to be called that! o3o

[Pixxelation]

I'm all for diversity and usage of people's preferred pronouns. I very strongly support the transgender rights movement (and most other aspects of LGBTQA+ reforms, being bisexual). I'll admit, it will take getting used to if someone asks me to use pronouns outside of he/she/they. But I will certainly try.

 

As long as you understand that you are a human.

 

I'm sure I'm going to offend someone with this, but I just don't understand the idea of "otherkin". When people claim that they are a non-human figure--often non-existant or inanimate--I just don't know how to respond. I found this, and I just can't even begin to comprehend it:

 

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/nature

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/royal

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/creature

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/animal

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/ungrouped

 

"cor/corpse/corpseself"

"tu/tuba/tubas/tubself"

 

I'm sorry but what. Please tell me I'm not the only person who feels this way? It just...really confuses me.

 

EDIT: accidentally put the "general" link (which has legitimate gender pronouns and I meant to omit from this post) instead of the "ungrouped" one. Fixed.

Edited January 29, 2015 by PieMaster

[gyiyg]

Otherkin have nothing to do with gender identity, it's just that some nonbinary otherkin like to use neopronouns based on their kintype :V

[Whirlaway]

I'm all for diversity and usage of people's preferred pronouns. I very strongly support the transgender rights movement (and most other aspects of LGBTQA+ reforms, being bisexual). I'll admit, it will take getting used to if someone asks me to use pronouns outside of he/she/they. But I will certainly try.

 

As long as you understand that you are a human.

 

I'm sure I'm going to offend someone with this, but I just don't understand the idea of "otherkin". When people claim that they are a non-human figure--often non-existant or inanimate--I just don't know how to respond. I found this, and I just can't even begin to comprehend it:

 

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/nature

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/royal

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/creature

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/animal

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/ungrouped

 

"cor/corpse/corpseself"

"tu/tuba/tubas/tubself"

 

I'm sorry but what. Please tell me I'm not the only person who feels this way? It just...really confuses me.

To be honest some things people make up just. I shake my head at.

 

 

[Pixxelation]

Otherkin have nothing to do with gender identity, it's just that some nonbinary otherkin like to use neopronouns based on their kintype :V

There wasn't an otherkin thread (that I found), so I posted here, since pronouns have to do with gender identity. I've heard that otherkin are (supposedly) part of the transgender movement, so I thought this thread would be the right place. I'll delete my post if a mod says it belongs elsewhere, though ^^

Edited January 29, 2015 by PieMaster

[gyiyg]

Generally otherkin understand that yes they are physically human but they identify and feel a connection with with non-human things, for some people it's a spiritual thing and some people use it as a mental illness-related coping mechanism,,, speaking AS an otherkin for me it's some of the former and also partially because I've always felt kinda alienated from humans possibly due to brainweird stuff but |D

There's a Tumblr post around that explains stuff better than I do I'll see if I can find it :L

[octopi]

Otherkin aren't part of the transgender movement. Most people who claim that they are either don't know what they're talking about or are trolls that people take too seriously. Here is some good introductory info.

 

I have to ask, though... what do people think is wrong with making stuff up to label yourself with? I mean, in the end, human language is made entirely of labels anyway, and every word was invented at one point or another by a human or a group of humans. Does "male" or "female" mean anything, beyond what importance humans ascribe to those words? If not, what separates them from nonbinary identities and neopronouns?

 

I mean, being confused about someone's gender identity is one thing. I'm confused about biology and I have no idea how it works. But that doesn't mean I can just reject the existence of cells and transport proteins. Their existence and validity don't hinge on my understanding of their existence and validity.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Fractional Pi Day

[Obscure_Trash]

Otherkin aren't part of the transgender movement. Most people who claim that they are either don't know what they're talking about or are trolls that people take too seriously. Here is some good introductory info.

 

I have to ask, though... what do people think is wrong with making stuff up to label yourself with? I mean, in the end, human language is made entirely of labels anyway, and every word was invented at one point or another by a human or a group of humans. Does "male" or "female" mean anything, beyond what importance humans ascribe to those words? If not, what separates them from nonbinary identities and neopronouns?

 

I mean, being confused about someone's gender identity is one thing. I'm confused about biology and I have no idea how it works. But that doesn't mean I can just reject the existence of cells and transport proteins. Their existence and validity don't hinge on my understanding of their existence and validity.

^^^

 

No, I don't understand otherkin (or furries for that matter) at all and cannot empathize with how they feel. However, the fact that otherkin exist doesn't hurt me, so I don't see why it should bother me.

[Pixxelation]

I have no problem if someone wants to think of themself as a wolf or a plant or whatever. I'm sure they have reasons for it, and that's fine. I have no problem with people believing themselves to be spiritually aligned with a nonhuman thing. But when they ask others to refer to them as plants or animals or rocks or chairs or whatever they identify with--and use an endless array of so-called "neopronouns" to be referred to as--that's just silly and makes the whole idea of using nonbinary pronouns unappealing.

 

By that argument about, I can start substituting potato for anything I want and say that it means something that it doesn't. Essentially, I potato you to potato what you are potatoing with that potato. Words have a certain denotation, and questioning whether they actually hold significance will simply lead to communication barriers.

Edited January 29, 2015 by PieMaster

[Shienvien]

Does "male" or "female" mean anything, beyond what importance humans ascribe to those words?

Male and female are biological labels that predominantly refer to sex; I personally prefer if people do not extend the use of those for gender to avoid confusion. (Also feels weird for me - and I know several others; I've seen people called out on it - to describe humans as male/female outside of physical descriptions. Speaking of females rather than women (or males instead of men) can have slightly derogatory implications when you're speaking of social aspects that have nothing to do with the respective biological attributes.)

[gyiyg]

I'm

I'm gonna disengage here I can already tell you're gonna be dismissive and I don't have the energy to give lengthy arguments for things I'm sure somebody else can do it better than I can :V

[Obscure_Trash]

But when they ask others to refer to them as plants or animals or rocks or chairs or whatever they identify with--and use an endless array of so-called "neopronouns" to be referred to as--that's just silly and makes the whole idea of using nonbinary pronouns unappealing.

Why? We take the time to learn people's names, why not pronouns? Besides, a lot of folk only use those pronouns online.

 

Male and female are biological labels that predominantly refer to sex; I personally prefer if people do not extend the use of those for gender to avoid confusion. (Also feels weird for me - and I know several others; I've seen people called out on it - to describe humans as male/female outside of physical descriptions. Speaking of females rather than women (or males instead of men) can have slightly derogatory implications when you're speaking of social aspects that have nothing to do with the respective biological attributes.)

 

Really, really, really, really, really no. Not in humans at least.

 

We are humans and we absolutely can't just distangle words from their societal context. It's really rude and transphobic to refer to someone as "biologically fe/male" because it implies a distinction between sex =/= gender (which is not true and is an idea that needs to die) and implies someone is "really a wo/man".

 

For any purposes where it is necessary to know genitalia, there are much more accurate ways to go about it than boiling everything down to a simple, black and white fe/male view.

[Pixxelation]

Why? We take the time to learn people's names, why not pronouns? Besides, a lot of folk only use those pronouns online.

A name is one thing, but endlessly creating 3+ new words and expecting people to use them in everyday speech when they are likely the only person or one of very few who use them? That gets silly. It's hard enough to learn conjugations and such in foreign language classes. Making people do that in their native tongues is excessive and unfair.

[Shienvien]

It's really rude and transphobic to refer to someone as "biologically fe/male" because it implies a distinction between sex =/= gender (which is not true and is an idea that needs to die) and implies someone is "really a wo/man".

There is no need to say "biologically (fe)male" since there is only the biological (fe)male. There is no other kind.

 

However, female != woman. Not all women are female, and not all females are women.

 

And you generally don't have a business knowing whether a person is female or male (or intersex, although this typically gets "corrected" shortly after birth). The doctor or border toll might need to, since a penis and balls/vagina and ovaries and all that comes with either respectively are rather distinctive physical characteristics. You? None of your concern unless you're planning on dating that person or they decide to tell you.

 

it implies a distinction between sex =/= gender

Not sure what this even means. Of course sex and gender are different things. Else transgender people wouldn't even exist.

[Pixxelation]

From what I understand, sex is determined by chromosomes, and gender is a person's self-chosen identity. The distinction is important for medical purposes. Certain genetic disorders can only affect one sex or the other, and some medications affect the two sexes differently.

 

EDIT: Found an article that demonstrates this: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-matters-dr...-differently-2/

 

Biological males and females have different bodily functions, and it is thus important to distinguish between the two.

Edited January 29, 2015 by PieMaster