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Coelophysis

Gender and Gender Identity

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Me? I'm a boring 16 year old trans girl with a slight obsession with darkness. I am female because my male body doesn't sit right with me and I wish I was born with a female one. In short, I'm a female with a male body (at least for two to three more years)

 

EDIT: You know, if you want to go back to mixing up adjectives and possessives, we could even say that I have a male's body. Since in a way I'm a completely different person from when I used to identify as male. So it could be considered me in "his" body

 

I've been half trying to avoid actually stating this because I was kinda hoping this place had forgotten, since I was still defining myself as a cis male when I came here (Though it is kinda stated clearly in my profile anyways because I don't mind someone who's actually willing to take the time to learn about me finding out)

 

And back to the transphobic thing, what defines harmful when not even all trans people agree on what they are? Transphobic cannot be properly defined because it's meaning is objective. Thus your continued use of it only defines your opinions. And not even universally, only at the current time you are stating them. If in a month you change your mind, you'll still say that those who disagree are transphobic. Because it's not about what is harmful to trans people, it's about what you think at the time is harmful to trans people. And your continued use of it simply goes to show how ignorant you are of its connotations

 

Think of it this way: Using the off-putting term transphobic term is transphobic, you should stop being transphobic and not use it

 

How is that sentence helpful at all? A better way to write it would be: Using the off-putting term transphobic can cause people to be less accepting of trans people as a whole. You should stop using it so as to not cause people to be offended and push them away from being accepting

 

Also, no, that is not their fault. They aren't exempt from blame if they keep being oppressive. But if they honestly made an effort to learn and were turned off because someone used less-than-optimal terminology, then maybe that situation could have been remedied by that person having better word choice

 

EDIT: Um, no, not biology, sex. I don't use biology anymore because there's fifty billion different intersexual mutations to deal with and I don't want to have to learn a new "biological gender" for all of them. When I say sex I'm referring entirely to your physical attributes, which is what the terms male and female are drawn from

Edited by MasterWeavile898

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if you are still gendering sex

What I am trying to say that sex by itself *isn't* gendered. Sex is physical description. It is about as gendered as, say, being 6'2'' tall. Statistically, over half of the people who are 6'2'' tall will say that they are men, but it doesn't mean that the height itself determines gender.

 

 

Edited by Shienvien

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EDIT: Um, no, not biology, sex. I don't use biology anymore because there's fifty billion different intersexual mutations to deal with and I don't want to have to learn a new "biological gender" for all of them. When I say sex I'm referring entirely to your physical attributes, which is what the terms male and female are drawn from

But sex is a purely biological term. Using the term "sex" to describe only someone's physical attributes is not correct. When you say that you don't like to use the term "biology" to describe people because it's way too complicated, you are entirely correct. Biology is very complex and can not be described with the simple terms "male" and "female". And since sex is a purely biological definition, sex is also a very complicated concept that can not be described with the simple terms "male" and "female". If you want to describe your physical attributes, just say that you are describing your physical attributes. If you choose to assign yourself a gender based on your physical attributes, that is your own personal decision and you are absolutely free to do so. But keep in mind that there are many other people who do not want to gender their physical attributes. Forcing them to do so under the guise of describing their sex is a misusage of the term sex and can be very harmful to many trans and/or non binary people.

Edited by F.ury

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First of all, the biological definition of sex doesn't even use the terms "male" and "female". In biology, an organism's sex is defined by the type of gametes that it can produce.
Not entirely correct. The gametes *are* actually termed female/male gametes respectively. Alternatively, the male is the one which produces this kind of gametes, and the female is the one which produces the other kind of gametes, and male/female refer strictly to sex. Including in case of plants and other such lifeforms. In case of bacteria (which don't even produce gametes!!!) the male is the cell which donates its DNA, and the female is the cell which receives the DNA. Believe me, I was going to become a geneticist before I switched to studying computer sciences instead...

 

Male/Female are also terms in technology, fyi.

Edited by Shienvien

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Not entirely correct. The gametes *are* actually termed female/male gametes respectively. Alternatively, the male is the one which produces this kind of gametes, and the female is the one which produces the other kind of gametes, and male/female refer strictly to sex. Including in case of plants and other such lifeforms. In case of bacteria (which don't even produce gametes!!!) the male is the cell which donates its DNA, and the female is the cell which receives the DNA. Believe me, I was going to become a geneticist before I switched to studying computer sciences instead...

 

Male/Female are also terms in technology, fyi.

But sex is still determined by the types of gametes an organism produces. We've chosen to colloquially assign the terms "male" and "female" to the two different gamete types to make the concept easier to understand. We could just as easily have made it standard to refer to the two different gamete types as "A" and "B", "Type 1" and "Type 2", etc. You could explain the entire process of defining an organism's sex without ever using the words "male" and "female". You don't need to gender sex in order to explain how sex is defined. It's just become very standard to do so. An organism which produces A type gametes can be female, male, or any other gender. An organism that produces B type gametes can be female, male, or any other gender. An organism that produces no gametes can be female, male, or any other gender.

Edited by F.ury

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Saying "A" and "B" would be the same thing as "gendering" sex, it would just be different terms. Also, male and female referred to sex long before they referred to gender. So if anything we should go Shienvein's route and stop using male and female as genders

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I'm having too hard a time reading back over posts about "biological sex" and just can't make it through it. So I'll just leave a general question that will hopefully explain what I'm trying to say a little better: Why is it so important to folks that penis = male and vagina = female? How does this help you? What would change if we stopped making that connection?

As a child growing up, I was only made aware of the binary. Sex and gender were one and the same and I didn't know there were other options. I didn't know it was possible for a girl to be born with a penis or a boy to be born with a uterus. Throughout my entire life, the only time I've been aware that I encountered people who did not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth is here, at least before I started questioning. Unless people felt like sharing with me, it wasn't any of my business to know either. I guess that's a reason why I felt I didn't belong in the box I was labeled with, and I'm glad that there's other options that better explain how I identify.

 

Upbringing is why I used the terms female, woman and girl in my previous posts - they're familiar terms to me and while I don't identify with them, society identifies me with them most of the time.

 

How does it help me to use these terms? Other than the terms being familiar, it doesn't. They bring up more questions than the ones they answer in regards to me personally. In regards to others, it's a force of habit to refer to the body that has pronounced breasts as female, and the body that doesn't as male. I've used them/they/their on and off for a while now, would that be a better term to use when referencing someone who's name I don't know?

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Just because it's become popular to assign the terms "male" and "female"

 

It's not just popular. It's been that way since the beginning of time as far as I know.

 

What I see is a group, a minority, that seems to want to do away with calling anyone 'male' or 'female' because they themselves are, I don't know, confused? I like knowing how to refer to someone. It's confusing, not to mention down right embarrassing, not knowing. If I'm dealing with a customer and I have no clue whatsoever what their gender is, how in the world do I address them? What do I say? How do people avoid giving offense to these people ya'll are talking about? I'm curious because if I ever do run into that situation I'd like to know how to handle it and know what's appropriate. :S

 

Forcing them to do so under the guise of describing their sex is a misusage of the term sex and can be very harmful to many trans and/or non binary people.

 

Should the entire globe change because of that and be thrown into mass confusion? Wouldn't the simple word 'other' be enough? I mean, that about sums it up, right? I don't know, I'm so confused reading through all this I can't tell which end is up right now.

 

"producer of small motile gametes", "producer of large non-motile gametes", "does not produce any type of gamete", or possibly "producer of both small motile gametes and large non motile gametes"

 

I'm trying to envision that on a job application...

 

I'm not trying to offend anyone. Honestly, I've never run into anyone like what you're describing in real life. And after reading all of this and getting so incredibly confused, I'm rather glad to be honest. This whole issue is just way, way too complicated. There must be some simple solution to satisfy everyone... don't ask me what it is though. I'm clueless.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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I like knowing how to refer to someone.  It's confusing, not to mention down right embarrassing, not knowing.  If I'm dealing with a customer and I have no clue whatsoever what their gender is, how in the world do I address them?  What do I say?  How do people avoid giving offense to these people ya'll are talking about?  I'm curious because if I ever do run into that situation I'd like to know how to handle it and know what's appropriate.  :S

ACTUALLY, Medieval Mystic brings up a good question here.

 

Supposing , as Medival Mystic says, you meet a person, perhaps a customer at your workplace, whom you have never met before. If you aren't certain how someone identifies, what is the correct way to address them? To tell the truth, I always USED to assume that you just went by what they appeared to be, BUT if that isn't the case then what should a person do to avoid giving offense to someone? Just use neutral terms unless they tell you different? I am sure it would probably be rude to ask a complete stranger about their gender identity...

Edited by Silverswift

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ACTUALLY, Medieval Mystic brings up a good question here.

 

Supposing , as Medival Mystic says, you meet a person, perhaps a customer at your workplace, whom you have never met before. If you aren't certain how someone identifies, what is the correct way to address them? To tell the truth, I always USED to assume that you just went by what they appeared to be, BUT if that isn't the case then what should a person do to avoid giving offense to someone? Just use neutral terms unless they tell you different? I am sure it would probably be rude to ask a complete stranger about their gender identity...

In this situation, I guess you should just refer to them as the gender they appear to be. If the stranger asks you to use different pronouns, then you should refer to them as that.

 

I think it'd be rude if you used neutral pronouns without them clarifying it first. Or getting to know them, for that matter.

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ACTUALLY, Medieval Mystic brings up a good question here.

 

Supposing , as Medival Mystic says, you meet a person, perhaps a customer at your workplace, whom you have never met before. If you aren't certain how someone identifies, what is the correct way to address them? To tell the truth, I always USED to assume that you just went by what they appeared to be, BUT if that isn't the case then what should a person do to avoid giving offense to someone? Just use neutral terms unless they tell you different? I am sure it would probably be rude to ask a complete stranger about their gender identity...

I, and I think most people, would just say what gender I think they are. If they say they're a different gender, then I'd refer to them by the gender they've told me they are.

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So if anything we should go Shienvein's route and stop using male and female as genders

 

Okay. As long as people understand that due to the close connection between male/female and men/women, that we would have to give up men/women as genders.

 

I've used them/they/their on and off for a while now, would that be a better term to use when referencing someone who's name I don't know?

 

Yup! Them/they/their is gender neutral and a good one to respectfully use if you don't know what they prefer. I try to use it for strangers (ex. Talking to my friend: "Oh, look at their dress! I love that material!") and such (such being like people on the forum with no gender/pronouns I'm aware of).

 

I like knowing how to refer to someone. It's confusing, not to mention down right embarrassing, not knowing. If I'm dealing with a customer and I have no clue whatsoever what their gender is, how in the world do I address them? What do I say? How do people avoid giving offense to these people ya'll are talking about? I'm curious because if I ever do run into that situation I'd like to know how to handle it and know what's appropriate. :S

 

Then ask? Thing is, even know, just by looking at body, you can have no idea what to call people. You may strongly, seriously think one thing and it be completely wrong.

 

I can't tell you how many times, especially as a tween, I was referred to as "he/him" and that burned. While I am nb, I have never identified as male and never ever wanted to be referred to with he/him/his. I just find baggy clothes more comfortable and that young, it was easier to find baggy clothes I liked. As well, I don't have big breasts and I don't wear makeup. I also prefer shorter hair. Apparently this makes some think I am a cis male. It really burned a while back when just a few months ago someone once again referred to me with he/his pronouns. I thought that was behind me, but apparently not. I'm pretty sure I was even wearing a fairly form-fitting shirt.

 

Obviously, working in retail and service and such, especially when things get busy, you can't ask everyone. Mistakes are going to be made. And unfortunately, due to the society we live in, not everybody is going to be comfortable correcting that. I certainly never corrected anyone who mistook me because I was too hurt and embarrassed and didn't want to embarrass them by correcting them.

 

So best thing is, when possible, to use neutral words. For example, when speakers say "Ladies and gentlemen" that can easily be replaced with "Distinguished guests". More individual interaction is, unfortunately, still harder, at least in English. There's not a good replacement for "sir" or "ma'am"/"madame" that I can think of off the top of my head. Judging by this list, others have the same trouble. There's some there we can start using, but chances are customers won't know them and it's possible they may complain if you call them a title that they aren't popular with. So, for now, I would say best thing is: refer to them as it looks like they may prefer by their gender/gender expression and just be graceful if you are corrected. Or if possible, ask their name and refer to them mostly by name (can be more awkward in speaking than in some writing situations, which is why I say possible/mostly).

 

I'm trying to envision that on a job application...

 

Which leads to the question... Why is this really necessary on a job application? If we're looking for what pronouns to call people by, why not just put that on the app?

 

(I'll point out that right now the system isn't good either because there are plenty of people that really aren't sure what to shoehorn themselves because male/female may not be actually descriptive of them and they mostly just end up picking one and feeling bad about it.)

 

I'm not trying to offend anyone. Honestly, I've never run into anyone like what you're describing in real life. And after reading all of this and getting so incredibly confused, I'm rather glad to be honest. This whole issue is just way, way too complicated. There must be some simple solution to satisfy everyone... don't ask me what it is though. I'm clueless.

 

Yeah, biology is a lot less binary and a lot more confusing than we often put it down to: example of chromosomal oddity.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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i dont think using gender neutral pronouns before you know is considered rude? i think it'd be ruder to assume pronouns based on what they look like. im pretty sure thats standard. people do it all the time even without realizing it.

 

aaaand since i have asked about four times for an explanation as to why someone considers DFAB/DMAB a slur and have only got "well I dont like it" im just going to carry on with those terms for now.

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Short answer: Not slurs

 

I believe Sheinvein did state her issue with them was because she finds them dehumanizing?

 

I for one don;'t like it because it overcomplicates things. There's really no reason to go come up with an acronym for something that could easily be expressed in a single word. At the very least you could make up a new word if you don't like the old one

 

Also, this is probably just me, but: I would absolutely abhor someone asking me what pronoun to use for me. I already have to deal with people asking my name and forcing me to choke out something that doesn't actually apply to me (long story short I can't tell them I'm female)

 

Sure I don't like being mis-referred to, but it honestly feels kind of rude to just go and ask someone "hey you look very obviously male but I don't want to accidentally call you the wrong thing, so what are you?"

 

Using the unknown "they" is a perfectly viable solution, and most people do that anyways, but I honestly see nothing wrong with assuming someone's gender matches their appearance. For most people it does after all

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Except that asking people how they want to be addressed if they're ambiguous as to gender is just asking for trouble. Non-binary people are a very small minority, and therefore, there's a lot of people that don't know anything about it. So asking someone who's ambiguous what they prefer to be addressed as, especially in a professional setting, can be disastrous and a very, VERY bad idea.

 

I'm a bit confused as to what's really wanted by non-binary people, as far as acceptance. They vast majority I've encountered 'welcome' questions, but if someone's wording isn't absolutely impeccable, or there's some perceived slight (caused by honest ignorance, versus willful ignorance or purposeful slur), those that proclaim they want people to try and understand them turn around and berate the person asking questions.

 

With such a variety of ways people have come up with to define themselves, it's impossible to use any kind of terminology without -someone- being offended. It'd be different if everyone could agree on something, but the utter multitude of identities (and definitions of what are and should be basic concepts!) does nothing but hurt the chances of anyone on the outside truly understanding the feelings of non-binary people. It's counterproductive, and only makes people -not- want to try and educate themselves, especially if it means their heads will be figuratively bitten off when they try.

 

Unfortunately, the majority at large only has so much patience with something until it deems it too complex to be worth it to understand it, especially so with a group of people who are, at best, a sliver of the population at large. So either there needs to be some unifying language that everyone agrees on, or at the very least, people need to stop being offended at ever little thing that maybe, might be perceived as a slight (even though it also might be honest curiosity). It seems like it'd be extremely tiring to be offended at anything that could possibly be perceived as offensive. It's no way to live.

 

None of this is meant to be offensive to anyone. It's just what I've observed in my encounters.

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whwhy is clarifying what someone wants to be addressed as a bad thing???? i really appreciate when people ask what pronouns they should use for me if they don't already know it shows they're considerate??

and ive literally never seen anybody being offended from being referred to as they before making what they want to be called known?? im pretty sure that is what's been agreed on? like some people insist on using (s)he which is just obnoxious imo.

 

edit: also i definitely have a problem assuming pronouns/gender based on appearance. :U my appearance most definitely does not fit what people would assume to be a dude and a lot of my friends are the same. i think it'd be worse to call someone the wrong thing and possibly hurt their feelings just because of what you think they look like rather than just going for they.

Edited by Switch

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When you work in customer service as I do it's a no-go, especially when working in a high-traffic store. I also work in a relatively conservative community, so trust me when I say you don't want to ask a short-haired or long-haired redneck whose gender may not be entirely apparent, if they prefer 'she' or 'he'.

Edited by Omega Entity

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different experiences i guess, but that's what they/them is generally used for.

Edited by Switch

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But it was stated just a few posts back that 'they/them' isn't acceptable to someone. It's an exercise in futility, trying to avoid offense.

 

For most people, it's kind of on par with asking a woman carrying her weight in the middle when her due date is, only to find out that she's not pregnant and ending up getting an indignant response. It's something that they feel should be apparent, but isn't, and there's no way to tactfully ask them if their pregnant without them taking offense if they aren't.

 

Most cis straight men get extremely offended if it's not obvious they're men, same goes for cis straight women, which is exactly what happens if you go around asking people at large (which consists of mostly cis men and women) whether tey want to be referred to as a man or a woman. General courtesy dictates that you simply don't ask those questions unless you want to look like a a complete and total clod, whether those of a minority think it's okay or not. If it's rude to ask someone their race, it's certainly rude to ask their gender.

Edited by Omega Entity

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huh? i never saw anyone say they didnt want to be called they/them at first. o-o; i mean i wouldn't want to be called they after telling someone i want to be called he but ive never seen anyone upset by it used a preliminary.

shrug. im not tryna tell everyone to do exactly what i do im just saying ive never had a problem with it.

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See, that's another matter entirely. If they correct me on pronouns, then I'll abide by their choices. Though I have to admit that things like xie/xa etc. seem a bit silly to me. If he or she isn't acceptable, then just go with they/them. It already a catch-all.

Edited by Omega Entity

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huh? i never saw anyone say they didnt want to be called they/them at first. o-o; i mean i wouldn't want to be called they after telling someone i want to be called he but ive never seen anyone upset by it used a preliminary.

shrug. im not tryna tell everyone to do exactly what i do im just saying ive never had a problem with it.

The only people I've seen object to they/them are people who

a) already use the pronouns for people they don't know the gender of, they just don't think about it when they do

B) argue this because "singular vs plural pronouns!11!1!"

 

But I am sure there are a few out there who don't like them. They are not my preferred pronouns, but if people don't know my pronouns, it's what I wish they would use. x3

 

But I didn't see that post either? Did I miss it or was my own wording confusing? o.o

 

aaaand since i have asked about four times for an explanation as to why someone considers DFAB/DMAB a slur and have only got "well I dont like it" im just going to carry on with those terms for now.

 

Yeah, don't worry about it. They're def not slurs nor offensive. If someone in particular doesn't like the terms, that's one thing, but I wouldn't stop using them generally.

 

Sure I don't like being mis-referred to, but it honestly feels kind of rude to just go and ask someone "hey you look very obviously male but I don't want to accidentally call you the wrong thing, so what are you?"

 

Only if you ask like that. Like, why would you even ask like that?

 

"Hey, Joey, I was just wondering what pronouns you preferred? I prefer she/her myself" as an example.

 

"What are you?" is of course offensive and dehumanizing.

 

Though I have to admit that things like xie/xa etc. seem a bit silly to me. If he or she isn't acceptable, then just go with they/them. It already a catch-all.

 

I want something a little more personal. I consider they/them more gender neutral and a catchall while xie/xir, IMO, refers more to an actual lack of gender. I know not everyone agrees, though.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Well, right now I take issue with that because I can't speak the truth and it forces me to say it myself. At least when they assume and use male pronouns for me that's their ignorance, I cannot fault them for not knowing if I haven't made an effort to tell them. But if someone asks me, then I am forced to choke out a lie that makes me feel a bit less like living every time (okay so technically they're asking my name, not my pronouns but shh) But that's just my current situation and no fault of theirs, so no biggy there

 

However, in three or so years I'll have put a lot of time and money into appearing completely female. I don't want people asking me about my gender, I want it to be an obvious non-issue. Hell, they shouldn't even need to go that far if they're talking to me, because that's second person. We only have one second person pronoun. I would really rather not have someone come up to me and say "hey you look like a girl but I want to be polite and make sure" because I've put a lot into making sure they don't have to

 

Also, I dislike singular they being used as personal pronoun, because it's not. Singular they refers to an unknown, not a neutral. Xe (and all fifteen billion variations) are more personal. Though I wish there was a standard variation that wasn't spelled with an X. Things being spelled with an X is an eye-catch thing that things like TV shows use to draw attention. It makes it seem like non-binary pronouns are more special than binary ones and also draws a lot of attention to an issue that, at least I personally, feel should have as little a deal made of it as possible

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people use they as their personal pronouns all the time? it's not just for unknowns. i see it more than the X ones.

Edited by Switch

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