Gender and Gender Identity

[Mondat]

Sex: female

Gender: female, I think?

Attracted to: people, but I am married to a cisgendered male

 

(I am a German living in Japan.)

In daily life, if I have to make clear that I am talking about myself or my actions, I mostly use the gender-neutral pronoun "Watashi". But actually I would like to use "Ore" (which is used by Japanese males in informal situations) more often because I like it.

One good thing about living in Japan and speaking Japanese is the fact that you can talk to/about another person without using any/many pronouns. You can use the person's name the whole time instead without sounding weird and add the gender-neutral suffix -san, without causing any trouble or being disrespectful to a person. You do not need to use "you", "he/she/his/hers/they". Nouns also have no gender, unlike in German language.

 

I do not like it when people try to tell others that what they are doing is "not what a girl/boy would do".

From personal experience, for me as a girl it was ok to play with dolls and cars, but my little brother couldn't play with dolls. When I was a teenager I asked my mother once why I should clean up the house and not my brother, she replied with "he's a boy"...I was angry.

(Curious what she would say if she knew I bought flowers for my husband....)

 

I want to be the person my future children can come to talk about everything they like. If my son happens to like the color pink or playing with dolls, I am not going to stop him. And if she wants to be refered to as "she" (for example), I am going to respect that and support as much as I can.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Mondat

[prpldrgnfr]

Portraits of One Person as Two Genders

 

The Montreal-based photographer JJ Levine has been photographing the trans and queer communities since 2006.

His portraiture work includes series that are personal and intimate and others that challenge the ways in which sexuality

and the gender binary play out in contemporary society.

[ryoubakura]

I am biologically female but identify as intersex. If there was such a think as transitioning to intersex medically I would do it. But medical science can't give me what I want so I typically come off as a dominant femme.

 

Cheers!

you can't identify as intersex.....you're born intersex.......

 

uhhhx

[ryoubakura]

Also, i would like to point out that it is generally inappropriate to refer to oneself as "biologically male/female". It enforces the gender binary and contributes to erasure of intersex and nonbinary individuals, as well as furthering the concept that boy = penis and girl = vagina.

 

The best terms to use are designated ____ at birth. Example:

 

dfab=designated female at birth

dmab=designated male at birth

 

[Bex]

^ I would like to point out that that's not necessarily true, and sadly ignorant. I am a member of a very active intersex community that uses the terms biologically male/female/intersex all the time without reinforcing the gender binary at all. It helps people differentiate between their physical attributes and their mental state of mind when speaking, especially online. You are correct that some people also use dmab/dfab, but that isn't the only "correct" way of phrasing it.

 

For example, one of my best friends is biologically intersex, designated female at birth, but identifies as male. When he is discussing himself and specifically speaking about his physical body parts, he calls himself biologically intersex. This is not wrong, and it does not "enforce the gender binary" or "contribute to erasure of intersex and nonbinary individuals." General ignorance of the presence and facts of intersexism does that.

 

Also, you absolutely can identify as intersex. How else would you describe someone who does not identify as fully male or female, but some combination of both? There are people in this world who are born intersex and choose to identify as neither male nor female, but intersex. This is not wrong. Any person is free to identify as whatever they feel is right, and you have no grounds to make that choice for someone else. Here is a quote from the same page you linked: "Humans decide."

 

[Obscure_Trash]

^ I would like to point out that that's not necessarily true, and sadly ignorant. I am a member of a very active intersex community that uses the terms biologically male/female/intersex all the time without reinforcing the gender binary at all. It helps people differentiate between their physical attributes and their mental state of mind when speaking, especially online. You are correct that some people also use dmab/dfab, but that isn't the only "correct" way of phrasing it.

 

For example, one of my best friends is biologically intersex, designated female at birth, but identifies as male. When he is discussing himself and specifically speaking about his physical body parts, he calls himself biologically intersex. This is not wrong, and it does not "enforce the gender binary" or "contribute to erasure of intersex and nonbinary individuals." General ignorance of the presence and facts of intersexism does that.

Except "biologically female" and "biologically male" - which was what was specified in the post - does reinforce the belief that certain parts = male and certain parts = female. Having certain biology doesn't make you male or female.

It's language that can be triggering to some trans people and other nonbinary people.

[ryoubakura]

Except "biologically female" and "biologically male" - which was what was specified in the post - does reinforce the belief that certain parts = male and certain parts = female. Having certain biology doesn't make you male or female.

It's language that can be triggering to some trans people and other nonbinary people.

that's exactly what i meant, thank you sock

 

as i am not intersex i will step down from this aspect of the conversation but right now the term is definitely used to describe a biological condition, not identity. of course actual intersex people can decide what happens with the term in the upcoming years but right now the term intersex refers to someone who has chromosomal abnormalities at the least or a variation in genitals that may or may not have been coercively "corrected" at birth by parents/doctors. for this reason most intersex people i know use not just DMAB/DFAB, but also CAMAB/CAFAB for coercively assigned ____ at birth.

 

i was objecting to the post "I am biologically female but identify as intersex. If there was such a think as transitioning to intersex medically I would do it." because if someone is actually intersex that's different but "transitioning to intersex" is just iffy on so many levels

[Bex]

Except "biologically female" and "biologically male" - which was what was specified in the post - does reinforce the belief that certain parts = male and certain parts = female. Having certain biology doesn't make you male or female.

It's language that can be triggering to some trans people and other nonbinary people.

I really don't agree with that at all.

 

I think the key thing that is being missed here is that no terms you can use are going to be all-inclusive, and nearly every community is going to have a different idea of what is acceptable. I started reaching out to other non-cis people over 12 years ago and the language has changed so much that what was helpful and acceptable then would easily be seen by most as horrifically non-PC to the younger crowd of genderqueer+ that we have now. Biologically male or female is only alienating to intersex people if "biologically intersex" is not given as an option and/or if people mistakenly assume that biology and gender are always in agreement. Male and female are sexes that people can have, and no matter how much you want it to be, it will always be somewhat based on physiology. Male and female are also genders that people can have. Some people's gender and sex don't match, or they fit into some third option. That is the heart of gender dysphoria, isn't it? I know full well that some things can be triggering. I have hundreds of hours of therapy behind me addressing just that. For example, being told just a few posts ago that for some reason I can't identify with what I identify with, which is disappointing to see in a thread that was going so well.

 

I have actually never seen a trans person in any of the forums I am on state that they felt restricted or triggered by the term "biologically x". Most use it to simply mean what their physiology suggests or would typically designate, usually by way of describing their transition to whatever they prefer.

 

Perhaps I am lucky that my transgender and intersex groups are more laid-back, but we all seriously use those terms all the time and the only time there has ever been a problem was when people couldn't understand that biology isn't black and white, nor is it everything. :/

 

I'm curious now, so I'm going to open up the floor to some of them on another forum and see what they say.

[Bex]

actually intersex that's different but "transitioning to intersex" is just iffy on so many levels

Why though?

 

One of the biggest problems intersex people have is the pressure to choose on gender or another. For some reason, some of the most pressure comes from trans people. Why can't someone with an androgynous gender wish for a body to match?

 

Edit to include: Also, while we're discussing terminology, some people in the past have suggested that someone like me should simply label myself as "transgendered" to mean that my gender is somewhere in between male and female. However, trans people who have actually transitioned from one sex to the other through therapy and medicine often get really offended at that idea.

 

Edit2: Here is a link one of my XXY friends just sent me, which clearly points out that intersex/herm can be a social status as well as simple biology.

http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/HowMany/HowMany.html#Gender

Edited February 18, 2014 by Drache

[Obscure_Trash]

I have actually never seen a trans person in any of the forums I am on state that they felt restricted or triggered by the term "biologically x". Most use it to simply mean what their physiology suggests or would typically designate, usually by way of describing their transition to whatever they prefer.

Difference in experiences. I only posted it because I have been called out for that language in the past. :3

[7Deadly$ins]

I don't think there is really a term that no one will call out on.

[ryoubakura]

@drache i'm not going to talk about intersex labels because as i said before i'm not intersex and am only repeating what i have heard from intersex people in the past

 

however i WILL stand by that "biologically ____" are incorrect and harmful terms to use in this day and age no matter which group they are applied for. What do you mean when you say "biologically male"? that you have a penis? Because i know many girls with penises. It's just plain incorrect language, and it's not only harmful but laughable that people still try to defend its wording as somehow not transphobic.

[KageSora]

however i WILL stand by that "biologically ____" are incorrect and harmful terms to use in this day and age no matter which group they are applied for. What do you mean when you say "biologically male"? that you have a penis? Because i know many girls with penises. It's just plain incorrect language, and it's not only harmful but laughable that people still try to defend its wording as somehow not transphobic.

Yeah, biologically male means you have the anatomical structures that are designated "male". Biologically male does NOT mean you're a man. It merely describes the physical body you inhabit.

 

The sex of animals is determined by their physical form. This does not determine the gender. Since we can't know the gender identities of animals, we classify non-human animals as "male" or "female" (or other terms, as needed, for those that are not exclusively male or female).

 

Humans are also animals. Therefore, I don't feel it's any more incorrect to describe the physical sex of a person as male/female/intersex if the physical sex is relevant to the current discussion. Such as describing physical anatomy, or things like abortion rights debates.

 

It is, of course, beyond incorrect to insist that a person is defined by their physical sex and to refuse to accept their gender identity and chosen pronouns if it does not match their biological sex. Insisting that biological sex determines gender and refusing to accept otherwise would be transphobic.

 

But I don't feel that using physical terms such as "biologically male", "biologically female", or "biologically intersex" to describe the PHYSICAL STATE OF BEING of a person--provided it's actually relevant to the discussion--is not transphobic. (Not anymore than dmab or dfab would be)

 

 

 

(Though I do find it kinda funny that you talk about "intersex" people but hey--people who are biologically intersex can have any gender identity as well, so y'know, you probably shouldn't refer to them as "intersex". Because what if that's not their gender identity?)

[ryoubakura]

you're not understanding

 

yes, we're talking about bodies. that still makes biologically ___ incorrect

 

when someone says biologically male they are specifically referring a penis and a flat chest and they are reinforcing dimorphism which is outdated and incorrect within humans

 

there are guys with vaginas. there are girls with dicks. How can "biologically x" even work? biological just means "relating to biology/life"--and then adding male onto that? so i could say that i'm biologically male, then, because i'm living and because sometimes i identify as male. or that i'm biologically nonbinary, because i'm alive and made of organic matter and i identify as nonbinary.

 

we live in a cissexist, binarist society that enforces the idea that there is only Male or Female and that male=penis and female=vagina. While a lot of terms in the wikipedia article for sex assignment are outdated and problematic, it still covers the grounds of what I'm saying.

 

therefore, when someone is born, they are usually, unless visibly intersex, designated Male or Female

 

in adulthood they may identify as something else. When you say "this person is biologically ___, but identifies ___" you are saying "they're REALLY a _____ genital wise but identify ___ :))" and it's very ****ty. identities are what they are and if someone is a woman they are a woman, a man a man, neither neither and both both so on and so forth. Genitals do not matter, genitals do not determine gender!!

 

If we're really sticking to biology so determinedly then everyone should just go get karyotyped, because unless there is visible sex organ variation, there is no way to know whether someone is XX or XY....there are a number of COMMON mutations such as: DFAB people can have Turner Syndrome XO chromosomes, Triple X Syndrome XXX chromosomes; DMAB people can have XXYY syndrome.....there are soooo many others. The gender binary is a POS and biologically ____ just reinforces it. Like i said...unless you are karyotyped you have no way of knowing anyway, 1 in 150 people on average are intersex.

 

DMAB/DFAB are simply more correct because they coincide with how society assigns sex at birth while rejecting it, let people know what privileges and situation the other person has (example: dmab trans women/nb people face more discrimination than dfab trans men/nb people) and escape the gender binary and avoid triggering language.

[Zovesta]

in adulthood they may identify as something else. When you say "this person is biologically ___, but identifies ___" you are saying "they're REALLY a _____ genital wise but identify ___ :))" and it's very ****ty.

I'm so confused by this. Why is this ****ty, aside from the REALLY? If the person in question tells you what they are physically, that should be their choice. What you should be respecting is what they identify as and refer to them as such. ??

 

Edit: I feel like I should clarify, I'll use the terms DMAB/DFAB if they really are the preferred terms, but practically all the trans* people I know use "biologically" without discomfort, so...?

Edited February 22, 2014 by Zovesta

[Obscure_Trash]

Edit: I feel like I should clarify, I'll use the terms DMAB/DFAB if they really are the preferred terms, but practically all the trans* people I know use "biologically" without discomfort, so...?

And all the trans and other enby people I know are wildly uncomfortable with this. Yay anecdotal excuses?

 

Are certain details necessary to note for medical reasons? Yeah. But that doesn't mean that should someone kick out a baby we should automatically label them male because of their genitals. Just write down the genitals the baby has.

 

When you say "I'm physically x" yeah there's a lot of cissexism/binarism behind that because what you're implying is that x genitalia = x gender or that you're really x gender because of your genitalia and if someone else claims to be x gender like you but don't have the same genitalia, then they're not really x gender they just identify that way, even if that's not what you're trying to imply. We've been working in a very strict gender binary but that doesn't make it automatically or even scientifically correct.

 

If for whatever reason, physical parts come up and someone is comfortable sharing, then yeah, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't make them biologically a specific gender or even sex. It means they have x parts.

Edited February 22, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Zovesta]

Aaah, ok, I see what this is getting in to. Stuff that's going a little too deep for me. XP I'll just stick with DMAB/DFAB and step out of this.

 

And all the trans and other enby people I know are wildly uncomfortable with this. Yay anecdotal excuses?

hehe

[Kith]

I'm so confused... How am I supposed to discuss this issue with people if any terms I might use could be triggering? I've been trying to talk to my husband about some of these things, but every time I think I've got the terminology figured out to be non-offensive if he wants to inquire further (or if I want to participate in discussion), I see that what I've been saying is offensive, triggering, or otherwise wrong. I've now run out of words to use.

[KageSora]

I'm so confused... How am I supposed to discuss this issue with people if any terms I might use could be triggering? I've been trying to talk to my husband about some of these things, but every time I think I've got the terminology figured out to be non-offensive if he wants to inquire further (or if I want to participate in discussion), I see that what I've been saying is offensive, triggering, or otherwise wrong. I've now run out of words to use.

It's simple--don't discuss it, ever, with anyone. If you want to never risk triggering anybody.

 

There is literally no way to have a conversation without upsetting somebody. SOMEBODY is always going to find your terminology offensive. (That somebody isn't always actually involved in the conversation--they may simply butt in to scream about how they don't like the words you're using)

 

That said, the best thing to do is probably ask the specific person in general if they have a preference with terminology and stick to whatever they tell you. Because, as you can see, even in the non-binary communities there isn't even universal agreement on what terms are "politically correct" or what terms are offensive or triggering. (Triggering especially is unique to each person--and people can be triggered by anything and everything so it's literally impossible to never trigger anybody ever)

 

 

 

Re: biologically vs. dmab/dfab:

 

And I'm still not seeing a difference. You're still saying "Well, this person is really still societally designated as X, even if they identify as Y". Same thing, different wording, slightly different connotations to different people. I really just see them as different flavors of "This person possesses a physical body that biologically possesses the traits society defines as belonging to [sex]".

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm so confused... How am I supposed to discuss this issue with people if any terms I might use could be triggering? I've been trying to talk to my husband about some of these things, but every time I think I've got the terminology figured out to be non-offensive if he wants to inquire further (or if I want to participate in discussion), I see that what I've been saying is offensive, triggering, or otherwise wrong. I've now run out of words to use.

You be open and receptive to learning and education. If you guys look into it further and find out some term is offensive/triggering, I'm sure there was information around offering better alternatives.

 

If something is simply triggering to someone but not offensive, then just be aware of your audience. Don't use the term that triggers them in front of them. But if you and your husband are comfortable with it, then you can use it in your private conversations.

 

If you're just talking triggers but not something that's offensive, that's something that is going to vary by person. Show yourself to being open to being called out so that people feel safe enough with you to say "Psst, I find this particular word triggering, could you please try to not use it when I'm around" (and you say "sure! I might need a reminder or two, but I'll try to remember with you"). For example - now these are words that are offensive - but reclaiming slurs. Some people are not comfortable reclaiming slurs or are not comfortable with specific slurs. Even if I've grown comfortable reclaiming them, if I'm in a conversation with someone who asks me to not say that, then I'll try to remember to oblige. However, I'm still free to reclaim that slur, I'm just being courteous not using it around that one person.

 

And I'm still not seeing a difference. You're still saying "Well, this person is really still societally designated as X, even if they identify as Y". Same thing, different wording, slightly different connotations to different people. I really just see them as different flavors of "This person possesses a physical body that biologically possesses the traits society defines as belonging to [sex]".

 

dmab/dfab and camab/cafab have completely different connotations - "this term was forced on my by a society with a strict gender society". It means, a biased society has termed x genitalia with x gender and that's what I was assigned at birth, however... Because we do live in a strict gender binary, it can be necessary more often than not to have to use these terms. But "biologically x" has a whole different connotation; it has the connotation that x biology means x gender. It's "society has deemed this and therefore forced this on me" vs. "I agree with this societal label".

[Kith]

You be open and receptive to learning and education. If you guys look into it further and find out some term is offensive/triggering, I'm sure there was information around offering better alternatives.

 

Yes, I've been trying to ever since I got conversationally slapped for believing that what I was taught in college about sex vs gender vs gender roles was true. But those "better alternatives" have all been shot down by somebody or other in this thread until it seems all but impossible to make queries of individuals or groups without someone getting angry, when I just want to learn.

 

I know that there are more than two sexes, more than two genders, that body and mind don't always agree, and that things can change (genderfluid, etc.). I know that gender identity and gender role are different, and that sexual and romantic orientation are a whole separate set of issues. Anything more specific or complex than that seems to get into potentially offensive territory very quickly.

[Obscure_Trash]

Yes, I've been trying to ever since I got conversationally slapped for believing that what I was taught in college about sex vs gender vs gender roles was true. But those "better alternatives" have all been shot down by somebody or other in this thread until it seems all but impossible to make queries of individuals or groups without someone getting angry, when I just want to learn.

 

I know that there are more than two sexes, more than two genders, that body and mind don't always agree, and that things can change (genderfluid, etc.). I know that gender identity and gender role are different, and that sexual and romantic orientation are a whole separate set of issues. Anything more specific or complex than that seems to get into potentially offensive territory very quickly.

So then ask? You shouldn't demand anyone educate you and you should put a little research in answering your questions, but I'm here right now telling you that I'm willing to answer questions, to the best of my knowledge/experience. And if I'm not qualified to answer something/am uncomfortable speaking on the subject, I'll most likely go searching for answers and give you some stuff from people who have answers/explanations. Of course educating yourself is hard, unlearning prejudice is hard, especially as you move past the 101 stuff. Yeah, you're going to continue to delve into territory where you might offend someone - hey, chances are you've said or done microaggressions in life already and not even realized. It's just that now you're learning about what those microaggressions (or macroaggressions!) might be and so you might catch yourself offending someone rather than never even knowing. That doesn't mean it's impossible or that we shouldn't continue. Just listen if you get called out and go from there.

 

Have I reacted badly before when people said something offensive? Heck yes. It piles up and I can't always afford to be the polite submissive little subhuman people are expecting. Do I feel bad if someone reacts badly when calling me out - well yeah. I know what it feels like to get to that point and I feel awful that I contributed in doing that to someone else. However, most the time when I call people out and get more aggressive (when they're not just trolling - then all bets are off; I don't appreciate people playing with my feelings), it's after I've tried to help educate them. I've given them an explanation. Provided them with links. Explained better language or whatever. And they've ignored me, harassed me, attacked me, or otherwise invaded my safe space demanding more from me. And so I defend myself.

Now, sometimes someone says something that, to me, is pretty obviously offensive. I've already called out 10 others for doing the same thing. My patience is limited. So my reply to them might be a snappy. But as soon as someone I call out responds back and I can see they've listened to me or that they want a real discussion, I calm down and we talk. I apologize if necessary.

If someone replies in a way that you're not comfortable with or don't feel safe with, then step away. You don't have to engage them if you don't want.

Edited February 22, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[TikindiDragon]

*shrugs* Personally I do use the term "Biologically female" to describe myself. I do begin to suspect there's a bit of a division here between 'older' gender non-conforming people, and the somewhat younger ones that are more active in internet social justice circles though.

 

I'll be honest, I actually don't like being defined by an acronym. I'd rather be referred to as biologically female than as dfab. I find the acronym to be far more dehumanising to me than a term which is technically accurate. (Which, I guess socky, means you now know at least one trans person that prefers 'biologically' over 'd_ab'.).

 

I'm not exactly going to sit here and argue the point, because broadly I don't care, I just thought I'd toss the opinion of this one trans guy in for you all to mull over. Partly because, reading through some of it, I've had more of a feeling that there are people here speaking for me, when I'm perfectly capable of speaking up for myself if something bothers me. It always slightly baffles me to see people getting offended on my behalf when I haven't actually been offended in the first place.

[Kestra15]

As it does medically make a difference what chromosomes and internal/external paraphernalia a patient has, I will refer to someone as 'biologically male/female' in patient notes. handovers, and when planning care regardless of what they identify as. I will refer to them as 'male/female/etc' depending on what they wish to be known as, but when it comes to the medical aspect of my job the biology does make a difference.

[MasterWeavile898]

*shrugs* Personally I do use the term "Biologically female" to describe myself. I do begin to suspect there's a bit of a division here between 'older' gender non-conforming people, and the somewhat younger ones that are more active in internet social justice circles though.

 

I'll be honest, I actually don't like being defined by an acronym. I'd rather be referred to as biologically female than as dfab. I find the acronym to be far more dehumanising to me than a term which is technically accurate. (Which, I guess socky, means you now know at least one trans person that prefers 'biologically' over 'd_ab'.).

 

I'm not exactly going to sit here and argue the point, because broadly I don't care, I just thought I'd toss the opinion of this one trans guy in for you all to mull over. Partly because, reading through some of it, I've had more of a feeling that there are people here speaking for me, when I'm perfectly capable of speaking up for myself if something bothers me. It always slightly baffles me to see people getting offended on my behalf when I haven't actually been offended in the first place.

Almost exactly this (Thanks Tikindi, I've been trying to figure out how to word that all morning >_<)