Gender and Gender Identity

[Shienvien]

I tend to use "(biologically) female/male/intersex" to describe the body/sex, and man/woman/androgynous/gender-fluid/et cetera to describe the gender... In other words, I use an entirely different set of terminology when talking about sex compared to talking about gender.

 

I also very much dislike the term "designated x at birth" - for one it feels less neutral, since it to me very strongly implies that the person doesn't actually belong to the "designated" gender/sex (which pretty much rules out its use for cisgender individuals). Also, anything acronym for a part of person's nature? Are we back to making being transgender a medical condition or something (since D_AB certainly does sound like genetic disorder of some kind)? "Designated"? Things have designated uses. Also, it does absolutely not distinguish whether it was sex or gender which was "designated" (unless we go by my terminology above, which would make the term mean the person was born intersex and "corrected" to x). Blah, in conclusion the term just feels thoroughly repulsive. Take it away from me.

[Likewise]

I've never felt particularly male or female. Does that make me gender neutral?

[LaRose]

Honestly, not wanting to make people uncomfortable isn't a good way to go about it.

 

If they don't like your gender identity and think they can't learn your new pronouns, that's their problem not yours. A great way to put it is if people can learn to start calling a person by a new last name when they get married, they can sure as heck learn to start using your new pronouns.

 

However, if you are genuinely okay with people using other pronouns for you, then that's another story.

 

To answer this question (it's a response to something I said earlier) I simply do not mind being called she/her. My top preference is for EVERYONE to go by Zie/Zer so we can stop accidentally insulting each other, but since that's not how things work, I am ok with my second preference. Also, it is not the same as learning a new last name, because that doesn't require the person to rethink their sentence structure. Hopefully they will start to teach Zie/Zer, and other such things, alongside she/her and he/him in the classrooms. If that ever happens, people will not have to readjust their vocabulary after years of practicing the other way, making the whole process much easier.

 

As for biologically male/female/intersex, seeing as it is something the medics need to know when they are trying to save your life, I think we should feel free to identify ourselves in such a way. As long as, of course, we remember to keep gender identity and biological identity separate.

 

Also, why would an intersex person be offended by someone saying they biologically identify as male/female? That would be no different than me (biologically female) getting mad at them for identifying as intersex. They are all valid, scientifically accepted biological states, officially separate from gender and sexuality within the LGBT+ community, so let's stop arguing about it.

 

Sorry if I seem terse, but I have been dealing with this subject within several other groups/people of late, and it get's a bit tiring. If you want to know this stuff, go the your local LGBT+ college club, and simply ask for help understanding this subject. Odds are they will have a presentation ready and waiting, or a free workshop of some kind scheduled. Heck, just look up "gender vs. sexuality. vs. sex" on the internet and you're bound to find an overview of some kind.

 

With lots of love and slight annoyance, Jo La Rose <3

Edited February 24, 2014 by LaRose

[Zovesta]

I think the problem people have with "biologically male/female" is the whole assigning gender at birth thing, because penis =/= male and XY =/= male, and want to rework the whole system. Or some such. I'm not getting it all myself, and DM/FAB does sound a bit itemish, but it's not my place to label.

 

Someone really should explain this a bit better haha. Here's Sock's quote from the previous page:

When you say "I'm physically x" yeah there's a lot of cissexism/binarism behind that because what you're implying is that x genitalia = x gender or that you're really x gender because of your genitalia and if someone else claims to be x gender like you but don't have the same genitalia, then they're not really x gender they just identify that way, even if that's not what you're trying to imply. We've been working in a very strict gender binary but that doesn't make it automatically or even scientifically correct.

 

Biologically always made sense to me because that would imply what your sex is, which is good for medical reasons, of course, but sex and gender are separate things.

[Shienvien]

"Biologically female/male/intersex" = what the person's body's sex is. NOT what the person's gender is. Biologically female/male/intersex has, in my mind, nothing to do with a person's gender...

 

I see it as a matter of teaching people to better understand that sex!=gender. The term itself is just fine.

[TikindiDragon]

Sharing this a a wonderful milestone of acceptance for the trans community:

 

http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=69518

[KageSora]

dmab/dfab and camab/cafab have completely different connotations - "this term was forced on my by a society with a strict gender society". It means, a biased society has termed x genitalia with x gender and that's what I was assigned at birth, however... Because we do live in a strict gender binary, it can be necessary more often than not to have to use these terms. But "biologically x" has a whole different connotation; it has the connotation that x biology means x gender. It's "society has deemed this and therefore forced this on me" vs. "I agree with this societal label".

I suppose I just don't get why it's a big deal because to me sex != gender. Somebody's sex, to me, can be 100% different from their gender. Therefore talking about what biology considers their body is (to me), in no way shape or form, like saying X genitals = Y gender identity.

 

I also personally dislike the d_ab because I agree that it feels dehumanizing to me. It makes me rather uncomfortable to have the term applied to me. I feel infinity more comfortable describing my physical sex as "(biologically) female" than I would saying "dfab". D_am just... Feels like the term you'd use on an animal, or an artificial life form to me more than a term you'd use on a human.

 

 

And, just for the record, I'd like to throw out there that I myself am non-binary. So it's not just "cis person doesn't like changing their terms".

[St. Jimmy]

Just going to weigh in on the whole D_AB/biologically __ debate. I personally don't care which is used for me... I actually often use FAAB (female assigned at birth) even though it's poor English, just so I can say I'm FAABulous. But, if someone has a preference then that is what I use for them.

[Rhaegal3370]

This is an interesting discussion. I don't have much to say about it, but I found it interesting to see everyone's perspectives. But for me, as a nonbinary trans* person, I don't even know what words to use to describe myself sometimes, let alone other people. It seems like there's nothing that can be said that someone doesn't consider to be reinforcing the binary or the system of oppression.

[pinkgothic]

So, today, after eleven years of a stable but increasingly platonic relationship with my primary boyfriend (I'm polyamourous), I found out what the reason is that he doesn't find me attractive (and really never did, which is something we've been living with for several years and isn't news in itself):

 

I'm not a girl.

 

It's not that he's realised this for years and never told me - it's also not that we weren't both in the know about my identity - it just didn't occur to him that it might be getting in the way until I was expressly ranting about something related to my genderqueer-androgynous nature on Thursday. But... he's heterosexual and I'm not a girl. Biologically I certainly am, so neither of us ever thought that, given our (very intense) love for each other it would ever be an issue that I am not particularly female, but apparently it does.

 

I have a deep respect for this revelation, in that it makes much sense to me and puts many things that never seemed to quite fit together before into proper perspective, and we will not be parting ways because we love each other too much; and my polyamoury allows me to stay together with him while I pursue romantic interests... but nonetheless, it's called into question the entire eleven years we've been together, all intimacy we ever shared (scarce as that's become), and I'm predictably a bit shaken up about it.

 

I just wanted to get that off my chest; and maybe someone can use this as a basis for a 'me too', or a similar story, or to pluck it apart for a general case, or whatever else might crop up in the discussion here.

 

(Though if someone wants to respond directly to me, please remember before you judge my boyfriend that you do not know him. I genuinely have no words for how fantastic this man is; my only regret is that we're not intimately compatible, which is not a cerebral decision on either part of ours.)

[MsCerberus]

I sometimes think I identify as female... But in the end I'm more intersex than anything else...

[lightbird]

I've never felt particularly male or female. Does that make me gender neutral?

Basically me.

I'm fine with being called a woman, being in a female body, to me it's just... never been a big deal. :u

[MasterWeavile898]

I just had an, interesting, discussion with someone who didn't know about transgenderism beforehand. It was actually nice to try to explain it to them, even if they weren't really getting it (Which is mostly due to the fact that I don't really get it either) I almost died of laughter every time they said some "offensive" stereotype. I was also glad to be the one to explain it to them. If they'd had to deal with a similar reaction to the one I got when I was first trying to understand it, they likely would have just quit

 

Which really brings me around to my point: Why are people so damn sensitive about these things? If someone wants to understand, why push them away by getting offended when they fail to?

 

This person went so far as to ask if I might change my mind because it was "just a phase", and all I did was carefully explain that, while that might actually be true, it shouldn't be their first assumption. Whereas I've seen others explode and rage and call people horribubble transphobic haters for stuff like that

 

Hell, I've seen people go off at people saying it's weird. Which it kind of is, at least to most who don't experience it, and likely even some who do (Myself included) And it just really bugs me that people do this, when all it does is hurt themselves and others like them (It's even worse when "normal" people act like that, they don't even have to feel the consequences)

 

/rantover (Am I just being hypocritical here, ranting about people ranting or somesuch?)

 

In all anger-free seriousness. I really can't understand it, can someone here maybe explain it to me? (Kind of preferably someone who is like that, though I understand if you're offended, since it's about people who are too easily offended )

[JavaTigress]

Basically me.

I'm fine with being called a woman, being in a female body, to me it's just... never been a big deal. :u

I third what Lightbird and Likewise said... to me my gender was never a big deal.

 

I was brought up as a female in a home with a very strong-willed mother so... I learned early that a woman was every bit a man's equal in the vast majority of ways... that being born in a female body didn't mean I was any less capable of a person. Both me and my sister ( no sons in our family) tend to take after our mother in being stubborn and strong. That said, I am not and never have been particularly 'girly' or stereotypically feminine.

 

I am truthfully not sure what that says about my gender identity.. other than that I have always identified as female without really questioning it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Silverswift

[sidnose]

really though using terms like "fe/male body" and "mental sex" is really iffy because it implies that there's an inherent connection between sex and gender, which isn't true. sex has nothing to do with gender identity. many people identify as the gender they were raised as based on their sex because they're used to being viewed that way. trans people aren't just "stuck in a different body"-- that's a really simplistic and inaccurate way to describe someone's identity. some trans people can't have or don't want surgery or hormones. though dysphoria is a big problem, not everyone wants to undergo any kind of process, whether because they don't have the money, they feel unsafe entrusting themselves to strangers, or just because they don't feel any need to.

 

also; saying things like "i must be trans because i like (insert traditionally gendered thing)" is. really really really bad. basically you're saying anyone who enjoys an activity or wears certain clothes or has certain mannerisms has to identify as whatever gender. that is a very very bad thing to imply. i know plenty of trans boys who wear makeup and dresses and are boys. i know trans girls who don't like any of those things and are girls. i know agender people who love fashion and art and rainbows and cute things and are agender. preferences do not equal identity. everyone likes things, who doesn't like things? but what things you like don't have ANYTHING to do with what you feel comfortable calling yourself.

 

that also applies to sexuality. so many times i hear people say things like "oh, they must just be gay." hate to break it to you, but that's not how it works. a trans boy dating a cis girl? straight as an arrow. a genderfluid person might consider themself gynosexual (attracted to women exclusively) or androsexual (attracted to men exclusively) to avoid the confusion of "homosexual" or heterosexual" that implies attraction to the same gender. nonbinary people can be technically gay and attracted only to other nonbinary people. i myself am agender and asexual, as well as aromantic (that's a whole lot of a's, jeez)

 

basically don't trust gender roles they are a Bunch of Baloney. not even properly spelled baloney that's how baloney they are

[edwardelricfreak]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mi...suicide-3110305

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/15...youre-thinking/

 

Even if females aren't being targeted directly as inferior, if a male happens to like something "girly" then he is treated as inferior. Why can't people just like certain things? I'll rejoice the day when any child can decide to play with any kind of toy or like any kind of show/movie without being told that they can't because they're not a boy/girl.

 

Also, whenever guys can wear what are deemed "girly clothes" and it doesn't matter.

 

Let's be who we feel like being. There's more to gender than just male and female. They don't have to have specific "traits".

 

I really hope we can get more pronouns to use, honestly. I hate only having 'her' and 'him'. 'They' is technically not proper for formal documents, for whatever reason. I really want something else, though, and not be limited to 'they'.

[KageSora]

I really hope we can get more pronouns to use, honestly. I hate only having 'her' and 'him'. 'They' is technically not proper for formal documents, for whatever reason. I really want something else, though, and not be limited to 'they'.

I agree. I'd like to see at least one more set of pronouns, a proper singular gender-neutral one, introduced.

 

Though I'd personally like to see such pronouns usable for everybody NOT being "special" pronouns strictly for trans and/or non-binary individuals.

 

Though I'd not mind seeing additions of pronouns strictly for trans, strictly for non-binary, and general usage gender-neutral ones that are considered proper and official.

 

I'd just like a nice, proper, singular gender-neutral one we can all use for everybody mostly.

[lightbird]

I'm fine with "they" as a genderneutral pronoun, but I guess that might not be the case for everybody.

 

IDK, maybe it's how my native language sounds, but "ze/hir" sounds like a chainsaw in my ears. >__<

[JavaTigress]

I agree.  I'd like to see at least one more set of pronouns, a proper singular gender-neutral one, introduced.

 

Though I'd personally like to see such pronouns usable for everybody NOT being "special" pronouns strictly for trans and/or non-binary individuals.

 

Though I'd not mind seeing additions of pronouns strictly for trans, strictly for non-binary, and general usage gender-neutral ones that are considered proper and official.

 

I'd just like a nice, proper, singular gender-neutral one we can all use for everybody mostly.

You mentioned, Kage Sora, that you are 'non binary'? May I ask, what exactly you identify as. The... various possibilities as far as gender confuse me, if i am honest. Was brought up with the binary, if I am honest.

 

I think I get the concept that one's sex is what one's body is... but things like gender neutral and Androgynous confuse me a bit. Regardless, i am inclined to agree that if it helps, it might not hurt to add more pronouns to the language so as to be able to PROPERLY refer to people. Referring to a human being as 'it' seems a bit iffy to me if they didn't specifically request it and they/their seems awkward.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Silverswift

[KageSora]

I identify as genderfluid. Sometimes I feel male, sometimes I feel female, and sometimes I feel neither. Generally speaking, however, I'm also "gender apathetic" in that no matter how I feel at a given time, I'm generally fairly laid back about the whole thing and don't care what kind of pronouns (other than "it" for the dehumanizing issues with it) you use to refer to me.

 

 

But gender itself is rather confusing.

[JavaTigress]

I identify as genderfluid.  Sometimes I feel male, sometimes I feel female, and sometimes I feel neither.  Generally speaking, however, I'm also "gender apathetic" in that no matter how I feel at a given time, I'm generally fairly laid back about the whole thing and don't care what kind of pronouns (other than "it" for the dehumanizing issues with it) you use to refer to me.

 

 

But gender itself is rather confusing.

No kidding about it being complicated... at least from what I have read. I wonder if that is why people cling to the idea of a male-female binary the way they do... its just a lot simpler to understand, even if it doesn't always work. Like I said, I always identified as female... but internally I am pretty apathetic about it. It just... is. Its my body as simple as that.... if that makes any sense. *shrugs*

Edited March 24, 2014 by Silverswift

[KageSora]

Something I wonder a little--and I've seen other people ask around but nobody's really ever been given an answer that's clear (and maybe that's because there isn't one):

 

How can you tell if you have issues with your body because you feel like your body should be a way that's different due to a gender thing, or because you just don't feel you fit in with the box society tries to put you in and you rather wish society would treat you more like they treat people of the opposite sex? (So, more like you reject the gender roles and "acceptable" gendered hobbies your society has, rather than actually feeling like you were born into the wrong body). Or if it's... Like... You wish you had the body of a different sex? But not like... Like not that you always feel like you have a very wrong body, but that you'd like the body of the opposite sex (or you'd like to have a sexless body, or something)

 

And is there really anything you can do if you sometimes strongly feel your body should be the opposite sex, sometimes strongly feel that your body is the right sex, and sometimes strongly feel that your body should be somewhere in between?

 

Like... How can you tell if it's "proper" gender-based body issues or if you just feel like you'd like your body a bit better (so not like you were born into the wrong body, but like... Like y'know how some people dye their hair or straighten/curl it because they like it better that way, not like they were born with the wrong hair?)?

Edited March 27, 2014 by KageSora

[skyie]

This is the kind of thing where I've now begun to wonder if it's gotten more or less complicated.

 

First of all, there are a lot of societal perceptions.When I grew up(80's-90's) there was a general attitude that girls basically couldn't do as much as boys. Oh, you're female? Well, why would you want to do anything but clean, cook,shop, raise babies and look pretty for boys. I just didn't like it. However,I refuse to use cliche terms now either. I was born with female genitals and have always been female. I got really awkward about my body and life in general circa age 14. I didn't want to be a boy but for awhile zi cut my hair short, and some people thought I was one.I quickly went from having the body contours of a child(including being quite small for my age) to having a body much curvier than most 14 year old girls get. But with baggy shirts I could hide it.Also I had a very young looking mom who was usually mistaken for my sister, and huge, obnoxious, oddly behaved dad.

 

Perceptions have changed a bit from then and I now have my hair longer and am not likely to pass for a man in my adulthood.I just figure I am me, and nuts to people's perceptions...I don't usually wear makeup(so I guess I am percieved as ugly then even though I am actually quite decent looking,I just don't like smearing stuff on my face)I love hockey, which doesn't make me a man, or gay It's just what I like. I shudder to think some kids start thinking they're the opposite sex because they're playing with the wrong toys....toys today seem to have gone from largely gender neutral to "boy" and "girl" with some dolls dressing more like call girls. It just makes me wonder when most of the cases of transgender children seems to be male to female,I hope these kids aren't been told by everyone that they are girls simply because thy like oversexed dolls(which I don't know if I deem appropriate for a child of either gender) or sparkly things of girly girl clothes(in my day we had a lot of gender neutral clothes)finally after the umpteenth person tellling them they are a girl because they like certain things, they start to believe they are(I'm not saying this is always the case, but I think it sometimes might be)

 

 

[MasterWeavile898]

Oh gosh. KageSora, I think you would be correct in stating that there isn't a proper answer. Or at least I'm not capable of figuring it out

 

And you have some very interesting points Skyie, I never thought of any of that. I think it's quite possible that you're correct there, though that's obviously not always the case

[prpldrgnfr]

Christian school pressures 'tomboy' to transfer

"She's a pure, 100 percent tomboy," said her great-grandfather Carroll Thompson, who along with his wife, Doris, adopted their granddaughter's child.

 

But to Timberlake Christian School administrators, the second-grader's boyish ways warranted an ultimatum: Start acting like a girl or find another school.

 

More supposedly "Christian" BS. Sunnie's great-grandparents are awesome sauce.