Posted January 30, 2015 My post was just to get you thinking about exactly what you're thinking about right now. "Why do we do this?" I'm not saying that we shouldn't use them. Just - why does it matter that it's she or her favorite cereal. It's a thought exercise to promote awareness, not a campaign to remove pronouns. :3 (And yeah, I know about Romance languages, etc., stuff that came from Latin using gendered nouns. I took years of French.) Giving up gendered pronouns is not something I want. To me it seems almost like trying to rewrite our language which doesn't seem like a good idea. What I do wish became normal is referring to people with "they" and "them" when it doesn't call for anything else. It seems too direct saying "she" or "he" all the time, like everyone is suddenly confused about who we must be talking about. (In which case knowing the name of the person is more important.) In writing it is definitely needed, because the characters can never be addressed personally. I love writing so, so much, but using "they" constantly in a story will drive anyone up the wall pretty quickly, and be confusing. There needs to be diversity in words, which is what I really strive for. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Giving up gendered pronouns is not something I want. To me it seems almost like trying to rewrite our language which doesn't seem like a good idea. What I do wish became normal is referring to people with "they" and "them" when it doesn't call for anything else. It seems too direct saying "she" or "he" all the time, like everyone is suddenly confused about who we must be talking about. (In which case knowing the name of the person is more important.) In writing it is definitely needed, because the characters can never be addressed personally. I love writing so, so much, but using "they" constantly in a story will drive anyone up the wall pretty quickly, and be confusing. There needs to be diversity in words, which is what I really strive for. This got me to thinking. I am sure there are OTHER ways, too, of adressing a fictional character's gender identity than pronouns? THOUGH I think pronouns'd be an important part of it. Edited January 30, 2015 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted January 30, 2015 I think the problem also lies in the fact that it is for EVERY language, not just our own. There are masculine and feminine words used to describe people and things. It's just how it's always been. If someone is learning how to speak English it probably wouldn't be a good idea to attack them for using "she" or "he" either. They are simply saying what they were taught. I am a native speaker of a language in which gendered words or pronouns do not even exist. There are only ungendered singular and ungendered plural for talking about living things. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 30, 2015 I am a native speaker of a language in which gendered words or pronouns do not even exist. There are only ungendered singular and ungendered plural for talking about living things. I'd actually be sort of curious to know if that effects people's perceptions of Gender, Shienvien. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 31, 2015 This got me to thinking. I am sure there are OTHER ways, too, of adressing a fictional character's gender identity than pronouns? THOUGH I think pronouns'd be an important part of it. There probably are but I'm definitely not familiar with anything else. I could look it up, but even just knowing that those words exist doesn't matter much if I don't get into the habit of using it. It's also the same for everyone else. I am a native speaker of a language in which gendered words or pronouns do not even exist. There are only ungendered singular and ungendered plural for talking about living things. I guess I should correct myself and say that not all languages use masculine and feminine words then. That's actually really interesting. What language is it, if I may ask? Are there numerous pronouns to use in conversation or are there only a few? It doesn't ever confuse anyone if you are talking about someone indirectly(besides using their name)? I don't know how the language works and am not native to wherever it is so knowing how easy it is to understand each other is kind of lost on me. Is the culture open about gender identity or it just happens that the language has no gendered pronouns? Similar to what Silverswift said, I could see it possibly changing the outcome of perception of gender identity. I can see a culture that doesn't put any weight on labeling in that way could potentially not give a flying hoot if someone came out as genderqueer. But I could be wrong and there could be just as much judgement being passed around. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 31, 2015 Well, I am physically female, and for the most part part identify with that. But I am also extremely masculine, and feel very comfortable in guys clothing. I would suppose it has to do with my upbringing, my parents never pushed me to play with dolls. I mean, sure, there would be that aunt that insisted on buying me Barbies and whatnot. But I always preferred dinosaurs and cars over dress-up and makeovers. Both of my parents are pretty cool over my gender identity, I mean, I have started preferring pants over skirts recently. And I have been considering binding, but otherwise, I'm pretty happy being female, and do prefer to be referred to as "She" or "Her" but tons of people mistake me for guy, so I'm not adverse to the "He" and "His" pronouns either. I guess I'm genderfluid.*shrug* Share this post Link to post
Posted January 31, 2015 I've had some trouble with gender in my early years mostly because I had a lot of friends who were guys. Even though I'm more masculine sometimes, I'm definitely a cis girl. I like a lot of girly things and I like a lot of boyish things. But that's okay because that's me. Share this post Link to post
Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I'm physically female, but I just don't know how I feel about gender in general. I've never liked typical 'girl' things-- but I haven't really liked typical 'boy' things either. I don't believe in a really definite kind of gender role or identification-- not for me, at least. Really I would rather remain gender-neutral. I just identify as female in rl because it's been that way most of my life and I haven't decided on the topic well enough to make a switch. Edited February 1, 2015 by cheese456 Share this post Link to post
Posted February 1, 2015 I'm physically female, but I just don't know how I feel about gender in general. I've never liked typical 'girl' things-- but I haven't really liked typical 'boy' things either. Really I would rather remain gender-neutral. I just identify as female in rl because it's easier, honestly. Interests and likes do not define gender. You can love princess movies and ballet and dresses and makeup and be a boy. Don't identify your gender based on stereotypes. Share this post Link to post
Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) Interests and likes do not define gender. You can love princess movies and ballet and dresses and makeup and be a boy. Don't identify your gender based on stereotypes. Sorry. I thought I was using that as an example of how I don't agree with traditional girl and boy habits and leanings, and how I'd rather just not apply myself to either of those. Again, maybe my choice is influenced by stereotype, but it's what I feel most comfortable with either way. I'm just not making sense, I suppose. Too sleepy right now, haha. Edit: Changed original post to reflect what I'm saying here. I think. Gosh I need to sleep. Edited February 1, 2015 by cheese456 Share this post Link to post
Posted February 1, 2015 Sorry. I thought I was using that as an example of how I don't agree with traditional girl and boy habits and leanings, and how I'd rather just not apply myself to either of those. Again, maybe my choice is influenced by stereotype, but it's what I feel most comfortable with either way. I'm just not making sense, I suppose. Too sleepy right now, haha. Edit: Changed original post to reflect what I'm saying here. I think. Gosh I need to sleep. Of course you can identify as whatever gender you feel comfortable as! I wasn't trying to convince you otherwise, I was just mentioning it because I've run into a lot of people who identify as, say, a girl, because they like wearing dresses. Share this post Link to post
Posted February 1, 2015 for a while i didnt want to wear dresses or skirts even tho i like them bcus i was worried people would be like "oh so you're not ACTUALLY trans" but i stopped caring anymore. i look cute as heck in skirts. Share this post Link to post
Posted February 2, 2015 I'm about 3000% percent cis. I have no problem with trans people, but boys have cooties so I'm not going there Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) I am very happy with my current gender, though on websites I do not share it. To me, the whole gender thing is kind of ridiculous. To me, there is male, and female. And transgender, I suppose. The whole 'self proclaimed' gender thing is really kind of stupid to me. But hey, that's just my opinion. Don't mean to hurt anybody. EDIT Then again, I'm not a huge professional on genders and stuff. Edited March 15, 2015 by PSYCHupdatedautopsyreport Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 I am very happy with my current gender, though on websites I do not share it. To me, the whole gender thing is kind of ridiculous. To me, there is male, and female. And transgender, I suppose. The whole 'self proclaimed' gender thing is really kind of stupid to me. But hey, that's just my opinion. Don't mean to hurt anybody. EDIT Then again, I'm not a huge professional on genders and stuff. Trans is not a gender. It's an adjective describing if the gender society placed on you agrees with the gender you are. Genders are man, woman, agender, etc. And no matter how you phrase it, invalidating someone's gender and even their entire existence is hurtful. You don't have to understand my gender to accept it. <3 Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 whoa i didnt know there was a thread for this? neat. i'm AFAB nonbinary. hello there! Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) I am very happy with my current gender, though on websites I do not share it. To me, the whole gender thing is kind of ridiculous. To me, there is male, and female. And transgender, I suppose. The whole 'self proclaimed' gender thing is really kind of stupid to me. But hey, that's just my opinion. Don't mean to hurt anybody. EDIT Then again, I'm not a huge professional on genders and stuff. nahh there's way more than male and female bruh. transgender isn't a gender also. im trans but my gender's male. that aside, there's genderfluid, bigender, trigender, agender, demi, other nonbinary, etc... it's not really a matter of opinion. these arent "new trends" or anything. gender identities besides male and female have been observed for a long time. what do you even mean by 'self proclaimed??' like im sure you didnt mean offense but lumping anything that isnt male, female, or trans as "stupid" is uh....?? Edited March 15, 2015 by Switch Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 Gender and sex are different thing. Sex is male, female, and rarely intersex (in humans). Gender can be many things. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Despite having been an epically great example of a tomboy as a little girl, I generally identify no problem as female (also my biological sex), but there are definitely times in which I feel more androgynous or even very male. I can't honestly say I feel I am nonbinary, as I really don't think much about it. I just am what I am, and that is fine with me, just as I wish it would be fine with everyone else to be how they are. It saddens me to no end that people can't accept others for who they are. As long as they are not harming anyone (and no, confusion is not harm), why does it truly matter? Some of my best friends are nonbinary, and they are amazing people. I don't care what gender they identify with (other than to use the right pronouns and support them, of course). I care about them as people. My husband is probably mildly demi, judging by the discussions he has had with me (though I would not actually put a label on him, as that is his decision, not mine). He asked me once--very nervously, I might add--what I would feel if he said sometimes he felt more like a woman than a man. I told him I would feel that he was still the same person whom I met and fell in love with, still love, and would continue to love. People have to remember that gender (not biological sex) is a construct of society. Many historical (and even some modern) societies have recognized that not everyone fits neatly into a binary system. Look up Indian (Asian, though Native American tribes have historically often recognized nonbinary genders, as well) hijra, sometimes, if you are curious about a different outlook on gender. Gender norms, even in binary systems, differ from culture to culture. Edited March 15, 2015 by harlequinraven Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) And here I'd add that gender norms by no means define your gender. By almost any stereotype out there, I "should" consider myself a man, but here I am, both a female by sex* and a woman... (I only use female/male/intersex for sex, and never gender. Gender has other equivalent terms that can be used to avoid confusion.) Edited March 15, 2015 by Shienvien Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 And here I'd add that gender norms by no means define your gender. By almost any stereotype out there, I "should" consider myself a man, but here I am, both a female by sex* and a woman... (I only use female/male/intersex for sex, and never gender. Gender has other equivalent terms that can be used to avoid confusion.) Oh, absolutely! I was merely pointing out that even in defined 'norms' withing binary systems (i.e. restricting it to pretty typical), there are differences from one culture to the next. This shows how much of a construct gender is, rather than being something merely biological. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 Gender and sex are different thing. Sex is male, female, and rarely intersex (in humans). Gender can be many things. Please stop saying that. I'm begging you at this point. It's extremely hurtful and harmful. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 Please stop saying that. I'm begging you at this point. It's extremely hurtful and harmful. Is it really? (I know this sounds like I'm being rude, I'm legit just curious and can't think of a better way to phrase that, and I am asking because I want to understand.) From my understanding, Gender and Sex are different things. Sex is what is between your legs, and gender is what you decide you are. Gender is what decides things like what pronouns you use. My understanding pretty much entirely comes from this video: Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Is it really? (I know this sounds like I'm being rude, I'm legit just curious and can't think of a better way to phrase that, and I am asking because I want to understand.) From my understanding, Gender and Sex are different things. Sex is what is between your legs, and gender is what you decide you are. Gender is what decides things like what pronouns you use. My understanding pretty much entirely comes from this video: she's referring to the fact that Shienvien has stated before that they believe that male and female should only refer to sex and that i shouldn't call myself male because that's not what my sex is. also that i shouldn't choose to call myself designated female at birth either because apparently im actually just female. Edited March 15, 2015 by Switch Share this post Link to post
Posted March 15, 2015 Please stop saying that. I'm begging you at this point. It's extremely hurtful and harmful. I maintain that it is not, and that sex and gender are indeed different things (saying sex = things in your abdomen and between your legs and gender = brain wiring is oversimplification, obviously, but it is mostly serviceable); I am aware that our standpoints differ drastically in those matter. Earlier in the thread there have been both several trans people who agree with me and at least two trans people (including Switch) who agree with you. I personally find your viewpoint at least as harmful. designated female at birth Designated woman at birth, DWAB, if you want to use an acronym? I still don't like acronyms for humans, but I'd have no technical issues with it. Share this post Link to post
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