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Coelophysis

Gender and Gender Identity

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I know 100% that I am a boy, and I'm cisgendered and I define as a boy, but yesterday I felt like a girl for the whole day. Just thought I'd drop in (in the middle of a discussion it seems) and share this because it was a sort of weird experience for me that I wouldn't have ever expected. I'm totally open to the thought that maybe in the future I will realise I'm not a boy, or whatever, but right now nothing feels wrong with how I define myself. I don't even know how that works, to have a sort of one-off day like that.

It seems interesting to me, how fluid gender identity is, and maybe one day mine might actually 'liquidise', so to speak.

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My body is female, but I've never felt like I was a female or a male. I am agender. My parents know this, and thankfully they still accept me.

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I can't make a decision, but I am allowed to advise. And, being an extremely distrusting person, my advice will always be that if you aren't completely certain of something, you should assume the answer is no

That's where the word 'questioning' comes in. You don't have to be "yes" or "no", so to speak. If someone wants to identify as something other than what you think is "correct", that's none of your business. Gender identity is not for anyone to decide but the individual.

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And I thought the term 'queer' was derogatory?

Is is. Most of us queer people who identify as queer are reclaiming the word - we are taking it for ourselves and making it something positive for us.

 

There are still plenty of MOGAI people who are uncomfortable with its use, although I've seen various people say they're okay with it in a purely academic sense but not when used casually by people who can't reclaim it.

 

Honestly, people who decide to just change labels every week with no research at all to try to find their identity are one of the reasons that you end up with "gatekeeprs" deciding what "trans enough" means. I've talked to people like that, and multiple of them cite the people who just randomly pick a label out of a hat and apply it and change it when they're bored of it as a reason they think there needs to be a more narrow standard definition and that if you fall outside it you're excluded.

 

But again, what does it really hurt when people play with gender? People who go "oh, you're not nonbinary because you're not like this person" are already transphobic and it doesn't matter what nonbinary people do, they are going to continue to be transphobic until they, themselves want to change.

 

Honestly, you really cannot say for sure you even know everyone switching genders so often is trolling. You just can't. Some people's gender really is that fluid. That's how some experiment and get to know themselves.

 

I do not understand why you think stopping nonbinary people from identifying as nonbinary is going to make transphobes any less transphobic???

 

I just hope that people that flip flop from week to week have thick skins and aren't easily offended. If someone doesn't know who or what they are from week to week, nobody else does either and if they're confused, imagine how confused the rest of the world is.

 

People who think this way probably haven't met a whole lot of nonbinary people. Yeah. We know that, especially if our gender is fluid, no one is going to automatically know what name/pronouns we prefer that day until we say or ask.

 

Even if we tell you and you slip up, if we know you, we can tell

-If you're genuinely trying or if you aren't putting in any effort

-If you really care that you slipped up or if you're just taking advantage of our forgiveness so you don't have to try

 

Nobody can know without us telling them and even if that tires us, we do know that.

 

~

 

*poke pokes thread* A trans woman has a "female body" because she is a woman, so any parts she has are automatically female. If you say you are a cis male, we understand that you were CAMAB and agree with that and know what that means with the current medical system. ;3 Let's not fall into the trap of unnecessarily gendering things. Just because our current medical system does it doesn't mean it isn't problematic. <3

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I'm not certain I understand what you mean by that last bit there, Sock. Is there some background to this statement that you could use to elaborate from?

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I'm not certain I understand what you mean by that last bit there, Sock. Is there some background to this statement that you could use to elaborate from?

Trigger: mention of genitalia.

 

Just as I said. Another example: "I am a cis boy with a male body." Just know the implications of what you're saying. You're a boy, so yeah, your body is a boy's body. But, for example, a penis is not what makes a body male. A trans woman, whether she has a penis or a vagina, still has a woman's body because she is a woman. There's no reason to gender genitalia like we do so commonly.

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"There will always be somebody who's crappy like that" is not an excuse to overlook problematic behavior when you see it, though.

 

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

 

It's simple--google results don't magically filter out unsound sources, and sometimes you end up looking at a bunch of ones that may not be totally reliable simply because they're the first ones that came up. Not everybody can easily determine "Oh, no, this isn't terribly reliable".

And I don't think that "but they're just doing it for the kicks" is okay to bash. What if they're doing it like that to have that excuse if someone DOES call them out on it? Maybe it's the only way they feel comfortable with experimenting.

 

No, ignoring a problem *doesn't* make it go away, but in this case, for those wanting attention giving them ANY kind of attention won't help. It's what they *want*. Don't bother giving it to them. And why does it matter if they want to participate in a fad or do it "just for kicks" anyway? I suppose maybe it might be demeaning to those who are actually experimenting/gender fluid/etc, but you *don't know for sure* and once others realize no one really cares what gender anyone is beyond the same kind of impact saying what your favorite band/color/genre/whatever is, they'll probably feel safer coming out. If you call out those you *think* are faking, some others who are really experimenting might see that as you thinking *everyone* who's experimenting is just faking. Alternatively, if you call out those you *think* are faking and they AREN'T...well then that really doesn't help anyone. But really, who cares? Why does it matter? There will always be trolls. Personally, *I don't care* if there are trolls pretending to be experimenting or whatever. Just let them do whatever. When people, even trolls, realize they aren't getting attention, sometimes they might try harder, but eventually *they'll move on* to the next thing they think they can grab attention with.

 

No, I know that google just gets anything. I said "I'm not sure why they'd choose a forum" because that just isn't the best place for information. The only reason I can see them reading ones is because they don't *want* to research; they're just looking for people who have experiences with having been trans or whatever and then stopping. If they really don't know how to research or don't want to actually do it, they won't care. I think at that point the trans/genderfluid/gay/whatever person should be finding articles on it to educate their parents/friends/whomever. Don't rely on those who want to remain ignorant doing the research; they'll find whatever agrees with them.

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Trigger: mention of genitalia.

 

Just as I said. Another example: "I am a cis boy with a male body." Just know the implications of what you're saying. You're a boy, so yeah, your body is a boy's body. But, for example, a penis is not what makes a body male. A trans woman, whether she has a penis or a vagina, still has a woman's body because she is a woman. There's no reason to gender genitalia like we do so commonly.

I don't think calling a penis a male organ or a vagina a female organ is gendering them. It's referring to what kind of sex organ that person has which is a primary sex characteristic. Sex refers to the body including the penis and vagina. Sex organs are the main difference between sexes. A penis and testes will always be the male sex organ, no matter who has it. Of course, all that changes after a sex change. That's the point of the operation.

 

But, sex and gender are two different things. I always looked at it as female and male referring to sex and woman and man referring to gender. So, a woman will always have a woman's body but not necessarily a female body.

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I don't think calling a penis a male organ or a vagina a female organ is gendering them. It's referring to what kind of sex organ that person has which is a primary sex characteristic. Sex refers to the body including the penis and vagina. Sex organs are the main difference between sexes. A penis and testes will always be the male sex organ, no matter who has it. Of course, all that changes after a sex change. That's the point of the operation.

 

But, sex and gender are two different things. I always looked at it as female and male referring to sex and woman and man referring to gender. So, a woman will always have a woman's body but not necessarily a female body.

Except it is unnecessary and it's also inaccurate. Sex and gender are not really two different things. We are assigned a specific sex/gender at birth. Not everyone agrees with that.

 

Exceptions/reasons why gendering genitalia serves no medical and no other purpose:

-Intersex people (whose genitalia are often mutilated upon birth so they fit the gender binary)

-People with variations on XX or XY chromosomes (ex. XXY, XXX, etc.) who are often just marked as 'male' or 'female' but may have the "corresponding" genitalia completely

-Trans people who have good doctors who have marked their actual gender (doctors doing checkups or whatever may not even realize they are trans until they state so)

-Literally having a penis doesn't make you male

-Literally having a vagina doesn't make you female

Simply writing down "male" or "female" on a chart is going to give you none of this insight, none of this medical background, none of this possibly important information.

 

Genitalia reassignment operations are not the best. The point, from the standpoint of many doctors unfortunately, is to give the allusion of the wanted genitalia. That doesn't mean the genitalia will actually be functional in the sense that they should be. (It's why some trans people never go for surgery.) I don't understand how this relates to the concept of gendering genitalia, though? Like, I think you're thinking very, very binary. There are genderfluid, genderqueer, bigender, agender, demiboy/demigirl etc. people. It's not all "male" and "female". Not all trans people have to want or get a reassignment. So gendering genitalia purely so you can define trans as "having the wrong genitalia" makes absolutely no sense.

 

Please explain to me why you think penis = male and vagina = female and, more importantly, why you find these classifications helpful and necessary.

 

I do get where you're trying to come from. Not terribly long ago, I thought along the same lines - until I did some more research into it and listened to more nonbinary people. Gendering genitalia is harmful and transphobic.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Part me thinks penis+testes is male and vagina+ovaries is female. However I don't think it's exactly...solid? Erm, like, I don't think they're the absolutes or extremes, I suppose. I see it more like a circular sliding scale of sorts. I don't think anyone is perfectly male or female, and obviously those with both or neither or anything in between clearly penis+testes and clearly vagina+ovaries are just that, in between. They are nonbinary. I don't see what the problem is? Why is it bad to call something a "male" gonad and something else a "female" gonad? I think, though it might be similar to stuff like "boys' toys/clothes" and "girls' toys/clothes" but not the same. Those seem different to me.

 

Maybe I just need the topic explained more, though. It's honestly a lot to take in since all my life I've been told "sex is the body and gender is the identity/personality/self". I can kind of see how it might make people feel like they're more "wrong" because their sex and gender don't match, but I dunno. I don't think "gendering" the genitalia is the problem; I think it's more about how we think about them. If we don't believe it's a problem that body might be one thing while the person might feel like another, then it's not a problem

 

I guess that's just how I see it though? :U I'm totally okay with ditching that belief if it's false; I don't personally care and don't see it as an issue but since others do I'm not going to let my beliefs get in the way, and they're not strong beliefs anyway.

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Except it is unnecessary and it's also inaccurate. Sex and gender are not really two different things. We are assigned a specific sex/gender at birth. Not everyone agrees with that.

 

Exceptions/reasons why gendering genitalia serves no medical and no other purpose:

-Intersex people (whose genitalia are often mutilated upon birth so they fit the gender binary)

-People with variations on XX or XY chromosomes (ex. XXY, XXX, etc.) who are often just marked as 'male' or 'female' but may have the "corresponding" genitalia completely

-Trans people who have good doctors who have marked their actual gender (doctors doing checkups or whatever may not even realize they are trans until they state so)

-Literally having a penis doesn't make you male

-Literally having a vagina doesn't make you female

Simply writing down "male" or "female" on a chart is going to give you none of this insight, none of this medical background, none of this possibly important information.

 

Genitalia reassignment operations are not the best. The point, from the standpoint of many doctors unfortunately, is to give the allusion of the wanted genitalia. That doesn't mean the genitalia will actually be functional in the sense that they should be. (It's why some trans people never go for surgery.) I don't understand how this relates to the concept of gendering genitalia, though? Like, I think you're thinking very, very binary. There are genderfluid, genderqueer, bigender, agender, demiboy/demigirl etc. people. It's not all "male" and "female". Not all trans people have to want or get a reassignment. So gendering genitalia purely so you can define trans as "having the wrong genitalia" makes absolutely no sense.

 

Please explain to me why you think penis = male and vagina = female and, more importantly, why you find these classifications helpful and necessary.

 

I do get where you're trying to come from. Not terribly long ago, I thought along the same lines - until I did some more research into it and listened to more nonbinary people. Gendering genitalia is harmful and transphobic.

If gender and sex aren't different things then what are they? I've always been told that sex refers to the body and gender refers to the mind. And, while the two are usually tied together, they aren't always the same, which is what being transgender is. This is what I've been told by every transsexal I've ever met and it's even in the OP of this thread.

 

And it is necessary because there are different diseases that affect males and females. A male doesn't have to worry about getting ovarian cysts. Likewise, a female doesn't have to worry about getting testicular cancer. The bodies are different and have different needs. Looking at a baby's genitals is the easiest way to make that distinction.

 

Assigning sex at birth is necessary for a parent to provide proper care. A parent needs to know the health care needs of their child. While it's not important when the child is a baby, it will be once the child goes through puberty. What would you say to someone with a female body who just got their first period? Most people would tell them that it's normal and healthy for female people. How the child reacts to this information is more gender based. Heck, that's important information for people who are ftm. It can help a young confused child to realize that this body isn't right for them.

 

I don't understand how simple calling a penis male or a vagina female hurts anyone. It's just making a distinction between the two sexes. While there are other factors to it having a penis is a key part of being male and having a vagina is a key part of being female. It's part of the common definition. Also, I don't think it's possible to "gender" someone's body because gender refers to the mind and sex refers to the body.

 

I don't see how calling a penis male or a vagina female hurts anyone. It doesn't invalidate anyone's gender because someone's gender doesn't always have anything to do with their sex. Someone having a penis and a male body can be any gender their identify with. I also fail to see how it's transphobic. A person who is a woman will always have a woman's body because it is a body that belongs to a woman. It doesn't matter what sex that body is.

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Part me thinks penis+testes is male and vagina+ovaries is female. However I don't think it's exactly...solid? Erm, like, I don't think they're the absolutes or extremes, I suppose. I see it more like a circular sliding scale of sorts. I don't think anyone is perfectly male or female, and obviously those with both or neither or anything in between clearly penis+testes and clearly vagina+ovaries are just that, in between. They are nonbinary. I don't see what the problem is? Why is it bad to call something a "male" gonad and something else a "female" gonad? I think, though it might be similar to stuff like "boys' toys/clothes" and "girls' toys/clothes" but not the same. Those seem different to me.

 

Maybe I just need the topic explained more, though. It's honestly a lot to take in since all my life I've been told "sex is the body and gender is the identity/personality/self". I can kind of see how it might make people feel like they're more "wrong" because their sex and gender don't match, but I dunno. I don't think "gendering" the genitalia is the problem; I think it's more about how we think about them. If we don't believe it's a problem that body might be one thing while the person might feel like another, then it's not a problem

 

I guess that's just how I see it though? :U I'm totally okay with ditching that belief if it's false; I don't personally care and don't see it as an issue but since others do I'm not going to let my beliefs get in the way, and they're not strong beliefs anyway.

 

This also goes to the first part of kitsune's post.

 

So, to gender body is to misgender many nonbinary people. It's basically a way of saying "yeah, I get that you're female, but really your body is male" pushing the idea that they are actually male.

 

Unfortunately, "sex is your biology and gender is your mind" is the 101 concept a lot of us are introduced to for nonbinary people and binary trans people, but it's a really grossly oversimplified way of explaining things that is problematic itself.

 

A better explanation is:

We live in a world with a forced gender binary, so at birth, we are coercively assigned or designated a gender at birth. As we grow and begin to explore ourselves, some of us realize that we do not agree with that gender we were assigned at birth. Because we live in such a strict gender binary, we have specific designations like cis and trans to explain if we agree or disagree with that assignment. In a better world, we would not be assigned a gender and would be encouraged to explore names and pronouns we liked as we grew.

But if you think about it further, babies have absolutely no concept of gender. They will being to understand the roles you are placing on them due to that perceived gender, but babies themselves have no concept of gender. It is not until we get older that we begin understanding or at least thinking about that.

Also, as already mentioned, there are a wide variety of genders. All sorts of people with all sorts of biology. So why is it we are sticking biology into one of two boxes when even biologically there is a whole range in between and further from those two specific designations?

 

Gender is a social construct. Our biology is not but gendering our biology is. I do think gender is useful and even in a world more accepting of nonbinary genders, I don't think gender would be obsolete. Humans like to label. We like to understand. But if we really want knowledge, wouldn't exploring actual biology be more helpful than offhandedly calling one set of gonads "male" and the other "female"? We have a very specific picture of what these mean, but, as said, there are all sorts of gonads that don't fit that rigid definition. We are only constricting ourselves by sticking to these definitions.

 

On clothing - that doesn't make sense either. Do men have one body type? Do women? No. So why not stop gendering clothes and instead make an actual useful range of clothes that fit more than a handful of body types?

I mean, think about how we separate "men's" clothes and "women's clothes", too:

-Women's pants are often missing pockets vs. men's pants often having and overabundance of roomy pockets.

-Women's clothes come in vague small to large sizes with a number that I have no idea what it's even measuring while men's clothes (pants at least, I guess), come in actual measurement sizes.

-Women's clothes are often more sheer while men's are often heavier (and do a better job of hiding their nipples even men with more fat under their breast area).

-Women's are form-fitting while men's are more freely-moving.

Does this system really make sense? Especially when we consider: there are small men and large women, there are nonbinary people who don't fit into either of these gender designations, there's no real practical difference between men and women's clothing, a lot of these differences are just different comfort and such choices we make, even now not all binary people shop just in "their" section. So why are we separating these things? Why not just have a clothes section with a wide variety of clothing types offered so people with different preferences can shop freely and still find clothes?

And same for toys, although I'm not gonna write it all out. And *cough cough* we really should mention that these designations are really just randomly assigned to uphold sexism and misogyny and patriarchy and toxic masculinity. Does liking pink or barbies make someone a girl? Does liking camouflage or trucks make someone a boy? Really?

 

tl;dr When you gender genitalia you are implying that a nonbinary person is really the gender they were assigned at birth. It's used to undermine nonbinary people and their bodies. It is triggering and harmful to many. And since there's no reason that gendering genitalia is actually useful or necesssary, why keep doing it?

 

Hope that explains a little better?

 

Also, just because something is in an OP, that doesn't make it the final word on things. o_O

 

And it is necessary because there are different diseases that affect males and females. A male doesn't have to worry about getting ovarian cysts. Likewise, a female doesn't have to worry about getting testicular cancer. The bodies are different and have different needs. Looking at a baby's genitals is the easiest way to make that distinction.

 

But some men have breasts and some women have testicles. Some people who are neither can have either of those. There are some people that may have some form of both of those.

 

So how is it not more accurate to actually talk about our bodies and say: "If you have testicles, you are at risk for testicular cancer. Here are the signs to watch out for [...]" than it is to say "Men watch out for testicular cancer"? Is the first not more explanatory and descriptive and clear?

 

Assigning sex at birth is necessary for a parent to provide proper care. A parent needs to know the health care needs of their child. While it's not important when the child is a baby, it will be once the child goes through puberty. What would you say to someone with a female body who just got their first period? Most people would tell them that it's normal and healthy for female people. How the child reacts to this information is more gender based. Heck, that's important information for people who are ftm. It can help a young confused child to realize that this body isn't right for them.

 

Is it really? Is it going to help an intersex child to have some bit of them snipped off and then called x gender and never have it explained to them how they were actually born?

 

Again, you're placing on a lot of emphasis on "female means x" and "male means y" when you could be more accurate and more clear by actually using descriptive terms.

 

What do I say with someone with a vagina who just got their first period? I certainly don't just go "well, you're a woman" like that explains everything or like it's even true. I actually tell them "you remember how we talked about what a vagina was? Well, what you're experiencing now is a natural part of having a vagina. The blood is because [etc.]". At what point in there do you think explaining to a child "you're a woman" is going to explain anything at all?

 

Parents change and bath and generally take care of their kids. It's not like if the doctor doesn't go "It's a girl!" they're gonna be really confused when they see their kid has a vagina or when their kid gets their period. ??? See above on gendering babies.

 

Why is misgendering people an important part of them finding themselves? D: If we actually explained genders and some of the various choices and etc., kids would also be able to more easily learn who they are/how they feel...

 

I don't understand how simple calling a penis male or a vagina female hurts anyone. It's just making a distinction between the two sexes. While there are other factors to it having a penis is a key part of being male and having a vagina is a key part of being female. It's part of the common definition. Also, I don't think it's possible to "gender" someone's body because gender refers to the mind and sex refers to the body.

 

I don't see how calling a penis male or a vagina female hurts anyone. It doesn't invalidate anyone's gender because someone's gender doesn't always have anything to do with their sex. Someone having a penis and a male body can be any gender their identify with. I also fail to see how it's transphobic. A person who is a woman will always have a woman's body because it is a body that belongs to a woman. It doesn't matter what sex that body is.

 

Thing is, you don't have to understand why. You may never be able to relate or really empathize with why. All you, hopefully, have to do, is respect when other people explain that it does hurt them.

 

Good thinking exercise: (judging purely off your forum gender symbol) how do you know you are female? What mental or personality or spiritual or psychological traits do you have that you think make you female? Is this something you can put into words, even now putting biology into a strict gender binary? What is it that designates what your gender is? Do you think removing the binary on biology would harm how you think of yourself? Accepting that now people of all genders have all kinds of biology, would it ruin how you classify yourself to remove this biological binary?

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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I see now Sock! Thanks. c:

 

It will take some getting used to, especially since it makes it harder to identify/classify things and especially harder to explain to someone. What happens when we get to the point where it's all just "people"? o: Interesting to think about! Especially since...well...what defines gender? At that point nothing is defining so sexuality and gender identity just kind of...aren't there!

 

I do feel the same about similar topics like race/skin tone. To me there are no races, just people. Course, then it's a bit hard to point out one specific person. It's still kind of confusing. Maybe it will get that gender/sex?

 

It's just a weird topic that needs definition but at the same time can't really fit into any definition. Maybe it will eventually just be "people with vaginas" and "people with penises" and "people with both vaginas and penises"? o3o

 

What do you think it *should* be like and/or *will* be?

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I do feel the same about similar topics like race/skin tone. To me there are no races, just people. Course, then it's a bit hard to point out one specific person. It's still kind of confusing.

Bit off topic but I'd be really wary of saying things like "I don't see race" or "everyone is the same race" because statements like that are generally code for "I see everyone as my own race" or "I refuse to acknowledge someone's culture". People saying things like this are often white people who claim that they don't see race in order to deny that racism still exists and erase the culture and history of people of color. If you've ever seen/heard about the show The Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert's character who claims that he doesn't see race so he assumes everyone is white is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Or look at any right wing (white) politician who is accused of racism and denies it by saying "I don't see race so racism can't exist so it's not possible for me to have done something racist. These minorities are the ones who are being racist because they just hate white people! blah blah blah…". An innocuous statement like "I don't see race" or "we're all the same race" can actually be quite problematic.

 

tl;dr People have all sorts of different racial and cultural identities and claiming that everyone is the same often leads to the erasure of minority cultures and the unique identities of PoC. White people often claim that they "don't see race" in order to pretend that everyone is white and deny that racism exists.

 

 

What do you think it *should* be like and/or *will* be?

Simple. We need to stop defining people by their sex organs entirely. If someone tells you their gender, you need to respect that. Unless you're their doctor or their intimate partner, you absolutely do not need to know what their sex organs look like. Gender has absolutely no relation to reproductive organs.

Edited by F.ury

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Sock, you're confusing my words. In my first post, I said that the terms male and female refer to sex, to whether a person has male sex organs (penis and testes) or female sex organs (vagina, ovaries, and uterus) and man and woman refer to gender, what they identify as, and yes, I know there are other genders, I'm just using them as examples. I was careful not to confuse the terms in my post.

 

The reason male and female are necessary is because it's easier to talk about something when you have terms and labels for what you're talking about. It's apart of language and how we understand each other. Taking away the established meaning of someone doesn't help anyone and makes people confused. Males and females have different bodies and those bodies have different needs.

 

And on the subject of intersex people, they make up a very small portion of the population. Their existence doesn't invalidate the long established meanings of male and female. ALSO the existence of male and female don't invalidate intersex people. What we should be doing is pushing for intersex people's right to be intersex. Meaning, that being a validate sex on birth certificates and protecting them from genital mutilation. If anything, we should have 3 sexes, male, female, and intersex.

 

 

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Bit off topic but I'd be really wary of saying things like "I don't see race" or "everyone is the same race" because statements like that are generally code for "I see everyone as my own race" or "I refuse to acknowledge someone's culture". People saying things like this are often white people who claim that they don't see race in order to deny that racism still exists and erase the culture and history of people of color. If you've ever seen/heard about the show The Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert's character who claims that he doesn't see race so he assumes everyone is white is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Or look at any right wing (white) politician who is accused of racism and denies it by saying "I don't see race so racism can't exist so it's not possible for me to have done something racist. These minorities are the ones who are being racist because they just hate white people! blah blah blah…". An innocuous statement like "I don't see race" or "we're all the same race" can actually be quite problematic.

 

tl;dr People have all sorts of different racial and cultural identities and claiming that everyone is the same often leads to the erasure of minority cultures and the unique identities of PoC. White people often claim that they "don't see race" in order to pretend that everyone is white and deny that racism exists.

 

 

 

Simple. We need to stop defining people by their sex organs entirely. If someone tells you their gender, you need to respect that. Unless you're their doctor or their intimate partner, you absolutely do not need to know what their sex organs look like. Gender has absolutely no relation to reproductive organs.

Eh I'm not going to really go into it. When I say I don't care about race I really don't. It's not me trying to see everyone as the same or devaluing their culture. It's complicated and not for this topic. It's just some stuff I've gone over in sociology classes, is all. I was just saying I don't really care about race to relate it to my thoughts on gender. So long as I know what someone wants to be called, I could care less if they were black, white, androgynous, orange, trans...whatever. It's just not something I pay attention to or at least try not to pay attention to beyond accepting someone for who they are and how they want to be called.

 

Haha, I was asking Socky but okay. >w< I kind of thought maybe that would be the case, though! At least that's kind of how I see it.

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Simple. We need to stop defining people by their sex organs entirely. If someone tells you their gender, you need to respect that. Unless you're their doctor or their intimate partner, you absolutely do not need to know what their sex organs look like. Gender has absolutely no relation to reproductive organs.

I do have to agree with you there.

 

Sex and sex organs might be important but they're only important to a small number of people.

How they identify is what takes higher importance, at least in the social setting.

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Haha, I was asking Socky but okay. >w<

Oh oops! Sorry about that! Didn't even realize you had someone specific in mind, I must be more tired than I thought. laugh.gif

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Oh oops! Sorry about that! Didn't even realize you had someone specific in mind, I must be more tired than I thought.  :lol:

Haha it's all cool! I did partially want to leave it open to others, too, and it is just out there. I don't mind other people answering. XD I am wanting to know more about what Sock thinks, though, when she gets back around to checking the posts here. o3o

 

I assume pronouns would just become whatever someone felt like using. Or would they still refer to genitalia (in some cases, I mean)? Since "she" is meant for females/those who feel female, but at that point there wouldn't be such a concept as "female". Right? Wrong? I grasp most of the concept and just feel super dumb when I try to think of certain things. Dx Would everyone just be a "they" or "xie" or some such? Would some still identify as "female" anyway and thus use "she"? But what would "female" *mean* at that point? Does it mean having a vagina? Clearly not because that's the issue now. o3o

Edited by edwardelricfreak

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I assume pronouns would just become whatever someone felt like using. Or would they still refer to genitalia (in some cases, I mean)? Since "she" is meant for females/those who feel female, but at that point there wouldn't be such a concept as "female". Right? Wrong? I grasp most of the concept and just feel super dumb when I try to think of certain things. Dx Would everyone just be a "they" or "xie" or some such? Would some still identify as "female" anyway and thus use "she"? But what would "female" *mean* at that point? Does it mean having a vagina? Clearly not because that's the issue now. o3o

People should use whatever pronouns they're comfortable with. It doesn't have to do with what's in their pants. It's part of how they identify.

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Trigger: mention of genitalia.

 

Just as I said. Another example: "I am a cis boy with a male body." Just know the implications of what you're saying. You're a boy, so yeah, your body is a boy's body. But, for example, a penis is not what makes a body male. A trans woman, whether she has a penis or a vagina, still has a woman's body because she is a woman. There's no reason to gender genitalia like we do so commonly.

Ah, I see. I would then have to disagree. You're taking sex and turning it into gender. And those are two entirely different things that I'm honestly confused as to why you're mixing them? How would you suggest we refer to sex then? It seems you're saying we should say "people with penises" and "people with vaginas" but that honestly seems really pointless to me, when we already have male (people with penises) and female (people with vaginas) sexes. And saying that a body is that sex is perfectly fine, because that is what it is

 

Also FYI a "male body" is different from a "male's body", one is using male as an adjective the other has it as a possessive noun. You appear to be using them interchangeably and it makes your posts confusing

 

Though that first part... Someone saying that obviously doesn't know what cis means >_>

 

EDIT: Am tired tho, it's 6:00AM already, I needed to get to sleep five hours ago >_< So my apologies if I completely misunderstood everything you said

Edited by MasterWeavile898

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The terms male and female refer to sex, to whether a person has male sex organs (penis and testes) or female sex organs (vagina, ovaries, and uterus) and man and woman refer to gender, what they identify as, and yes, I know there are other genders, I'm just using them as examples.
Basically this.

 

Male/female/hermaphrodite/etc. = sex.

Man/woman/girl/boy/agender/nonbinary/genderfluid/etc. = gender.

 

Different things. Saying that a person is male is no different from saying that a person has ten fingers, is six feet tall, or has white skin. It describes the body's physical attributes. That's it. Period. It does not imply that the person is also a man.

 

Male/Female are terms in electronics (and other places), too, FYI - and I am quite certain plugs don't even have genders. rolleyes.gif

 

As for me, it doesn't feel odd to describe myself as a female woman. And some women are male. But they're women regardless; it says so right in the description - and that description is completely unambiguous, there is no mistaking what it means.

(As opposed to saying "trans woman" ... was it a female person person who is a man or a male person who is a woman? I actually still have to think which way it went when I see the term. I am quite certain it was the latter, but I have to take a second to remember each and every time.)

Edited by Shienvien

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But, for example, a penis is not what makes a body male. A trans woman, whether she has a penis or a vagina, still has a woman's body because she is a woman. There's no reason to gender genitalia like we do so commonly.

 

Are you serious? Then what the hell does? Hair color? I beg to differ. If someone has a penis, they ARE physically leaning toward being physically male the way I see it. If they have testicles, then for sure they're physically male. They might not mentally be male, but physically? Yeah, they most certainly are to the vast majority of the globe. I'm sorry if that doesn't gel with some people, but that's what it is.

 

YOU might not see any reason to gender genitalia, but there's a whole lot of reasons that I personally do. The day I feel 'weird' describing myself as female, or someone tries to tell me it's 'wrong', is the day the I view the world as being really ass backward and whacked, much more so than I do already.

 

 

Are you saying to do away with gender? God for freaking bid.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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Are you saying to do away with gender? God for freaking bid.

I believe you mean sex, not gender. I don't mean to be a nitpicky jerk or anything trying to correct you, but I've seen a few times here where sex or gender was used in place of the other and it just caused confusion and large paragraphs of debate that ended up not being about the proper thing. I could be wrong though, maybe you did mean gender and I'm just reading into things wrong. If that's the case, you can ignore me ^^

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Are you serious? Then what the hell does? Hair color? I beg to differ. If someone has a penis, they ARE physically leaning toward being physically male the way I see it. If they have testicles, then for sure they're physically male. They might not mentally be male, but physically? Yeah, they most certainly are to the vast majority of the globe. I'm sorry if that doesn't gel with some people, but that's what it is.

 

YOU might not see any reason to gender genitalia, but there's a whole lot of reasons that I personally do. The day I feel 'weird' describing myself as female, or someone tries to tell me it's 'wrong', is the day the I view the world as being really ass backward and whacked, much more so than I do already.

 

 

Are you saying to do away with gender? God for freaking bid.

I will answer to other posts when on a comp, but to this: go reread my post. I have specifically said gender is a human thing that will never disappear. Nor have I ever wishedit would. Labels are useful to humans. We need them. I have also specifically proposed the question of what do YOU think makes you x gender because of this exact reason. The point is you cannot pinpoint what it is. It is not as simple as "oh I want these gonads" and to simplify it down to that is both ridiculous and ignorant (and extremely binary which I have already explained neither gender nor biology is).

 

I wrote out a very long post already explaining all of this. =|

 

And real quick - kitsune. I am not confusing your words. I am at the very core disagreeing with your strict and transphobic definitions of them. I am not confused. I am disagreeing. I will expand more when I am home.

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