Gender and Gender Identity

[KageSora]

Oh I should have been more clear, I was trying to talk about the previous discussion with the word trans* and trans and "transman" versus "trans man" etc., not the use of the word "it" as gender neutral.

Ah, my bad! Not feeling quite well, so I guess I'm tracking worse than I thought I was, sorry about that!

 

I do vaguely recall deciding to sit that one out because I facepalmed at the idea of Tumblr being an amazing place that's all about dismantling discrimination and an amazing source of social justice information (it's actually one of the most violently toxic places that I've ever actually seen in regards to social justice--most of it's people screaming at each other about things they're badly misinformed about and sending death/rape threats to anybody they THINK is a cishet white male to the point of denying that person's identity if they don't happen to be a cishet white male. It's a problem because the really good posts about actual social justice tend to get drowned out by it)

[MasterWeavile898]

"It" is a word that's used to strip the personhood of the subject, to reduce them to a sub-human creature or an object.

Okay, I guess I get it (Though I still fail to see how being human is a positive)

 

I never really thought of "it" as implying less than human, just, er, not human

[KageSora]

Okay, I guess I get it (Though I still fail to see how being human is a positive)

 

I never really thought of "it" as implying less than human, just, er, not human

Alright, let's try it this way:

 

It's used to imply that a person isn't equally deserving basic respect as the user, and is used to put a person on a lesser level.

 

It's used to equate them to a lesser being, like an animal or a tool.

 

The general implication is that something that is considered not human is not deserving of basic respects that are generally considered rights granted to fellow humans--by implying that they're not human, you are implying that they don't deserve the same basic rights or respects that you yourself believe you're entitled to.

 

And, if they are being equated with an object, then it is implying a belief that they don't even deserve the basic respect that non-human animals should have.

 

(The "you" is a general you, not specific)

[MasterWeavile898]

Just a heads up, I have this long rant about the deficiencies of the human race that I've been holding in for a while, apologies if I dump it on you later when I have less energy

 

Anywhales, that does make sense. It's just not how I think, I guess. Thanks for trying to help ^^ I'll be shore to remember to be careful with that

[tyto_alba]

Popping in to add my two cents on "it" as a pronoun - I know many people just do not like it. I understand that. But I am one of the people who do not mind at all and honestly, sometimes I prefer it. Sometimes I simply do not want to be called he or she. So, should I want to be called it, I'd like to be called as such. It bothers me when my girlfriend refuses to call me it because it's "dehumanizing" and it makes it sound like she's "belittling" me despite me telling her that it's fine, no it's not dehumanizing to me, etc. More often than not, I prefer being called "it" or masculine pronouns. I lean towards "it" but being called a "he" is easier on my gf. But anyway.

 

Never call someone an "it" unless you know they're cool with it. Don't use the word to be rude and hateful. But if the person is honestly okay with it and that is what they want, try to respect that while being respectful.

Edited February 15, 2014 by tyto_alba

[pudding]

Personally, I'm a fan of the singular they. My English teacher hates it but it's certainly better than saying he/she and it's less 'dehumanizing' than it. I don't mind 'it'. I've been called 'it' before. But others may not enjoy it so I think using they or them is a fine alternative. It's already slipped into speech and slang and, to be frank, if we made 'funner' a word, I think we can have a singular they.

[KageSora]

Just a heads up, I have this long rant about the deficiencies of the human race that I've been holding in for a while, apologies if I dump it on you later when I have less energy

 

Anywhales, that does make sense. It's just not how I think, I guess. Thanks for trying to help ^^ I'll be shore to remember to be careful with that

That has zero bearing on the fact that "it" is generally used as a way to demean and dehumanize (which, regardless of if you think humanity is bad or not is STILL a bad thing) people.

 

It doesn't matter at all what you think the deficiencies of mankind are. "It" is still used to place people on a lower level. Think of it like this: If you already think of humanity in that negative light, using "it" implies that the person is even more of a flawed, problematic entity.

 

 

Re: singular they:

 

IIRC, the word has been used in the singular context for quite some time?

 

 

 

Personally, I'm a fan of xe/xir/xim(self) myself.

[MasterWeavile898]

That wasn't my point. I was just letting you know that the current subject matter might trigger it to go off. It was in no way meant as an argument ^^

 

While I can't grasp the concept for myself, I guess I can understand why someone with a different viewpoint would be upset (Though personally I'm still back at wondering how an object or animal can in any way be considered worse than a human. But since people do consider it that way, I'll watch myself. It's not in my intent to hurt anyone right now)

 

I'm sorry for being so miserable at this, it's just kind of beyond my scope of understanding (I have been bested by a word :/) OH, WAIT. I just got it. Like, if "it" was referring to a word. And I just made it seem like a word was a low thing that shouldn't be capable of outdoing me. So it's kind of like that? (I suck at explaining things, but I think I just made the concept make sense to me, which would likely make no sense to anyone else...) Okay, I should really shut up now. But, erm, thanks again ^^ And sorry for being stupid

[Shienvien]

Humans are just a species of animal, nothing more, nothing less.

 

I must say, that to me personally, 'it' is a perfectly normal pronoun. Nothing that makes someone "less human". Other people might feel differently, and I respect that.

 

It would be another matter with being this/that, though.

[ryoubakura]

Whenever there is someone who requests "it" pronouns, I try my best to avoid pronoun use altogether, or just use their name instead. When it is unavoidable, I use "they", although I am hesitant to do so. I feel like that is equivalent to invalidating the person's identity, but at the same time, if the person's identity is psychologically damaging and unhealthy(i.e., dissociating and refusing to accept their humanity), I don't want to normalize that.

While I don't personally use "it" or would like it applied to myself, I have several gender variant friends who request it/its pronouns and it's disrespectful to ignore that those are someone's requested pronouns? Despite your feelings about it being "unhealthy", those are still its preferred pronouns and you should respect them.

 

Dissociating isn't necessarily psychologically damaging. Personally, I wish I liked it/its pronouns for myself and didn't have the preset "oh those are dehumanizing" mindset. My friend who uses it/its that it thinks of the pronoun like how someone would refer to an unknown creature/deity/concept beyond comprehension, and that is BEYOND cool. I wish I could apply it to myself; seeing as a lot of people don't even believe that nonbinary people are real, why not have an air of mystery, since they can't understand our gender/existence? It can be empowering in that way. Hope that makes sense!!

[Obscure_Trash]

While I don't personally use "it" or would like it applied to myself, I have several gender variant friends who request it/its pronouns and it's disrespectful to ignore that those are someone's requested pronouns?

Replying just to this quoted portion - I think "it" is a special case because using it as a pronoun can be triggering to people even if it's not being applied to them. I respect people's chosen pronouns, but I also must respect people's triggers, and sometimes we have to work together to find something best for everyone.

[Shienvien]

Thing is, almost *anything* can be a trigger, and 'it' - as I see it - isn't one of those things that is inherently disrespectful...

[TikindiDragon]

You guys realise this whole discussion now just has me thinking of the Knights Who Say Ni?'It' being the word the Knights cannot hear.

[MasterWeavile898]

As a side note, I appreciate the fact that you seem genuinely interested in being taught things you don't understand or having trouble comprehending. Some other people in that position would just give up, and accept their opinion as fact.

Thank you. Most people just get frustrated with me and give up themselves, but I try anywhales

 

Thing is, almost *anything* can be a trigger

No kidding. People are very fragile, the only way you're not going to trigger anything is by not speaking or doing anything near them

 

I actually know a friend who prefers to be called "it". It's never come off as demeaning to it imo, it actually kind of assists with the whole creepy not quite human thing it's got going (I.E. I think it makes it sound a lot cooler) So that's mostly why I was asking (Oh dear, reading that, I think I've come up with another reason to not call people it >_< Soo confusing)

 

Thanks once again all for your assistance, sorry for being a bother

 

EDIT: Oh wait, so that is a bad thing? Okay then... Sigh, I have a feeling there's no right answer to this, is there?

Edited February 15, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[KageSora]

If a person honestly prefers the "it" family of pronouns that is a tricky situation.

 

They they are claiming they do for reasons that may be damaging, such as it making them feel dehumanized (in either a demeaned or glorified way), that's a very touchy situation.

 

However, if they simply don't think of the word as dehumanizing--I do know there are people out there who don't--then I really see no problem with it.

 

 

If you're in a situation where somebody else is triggered by the usage of "it" (and, that one can be a VERY triggering one, as it IS used to demean and dehumanize people to make it more acceptable to attack/rape/kill them and/or make their life hell/treat them as objects, etc.), then I think it would be better to work around pronoun usage by using their name instead or something. It's not as simple as just using their preferred pronoun, but I've yet to meet anybody who is upset when you use the name they prefer in place of their pronoun (though, I would argue that it would be best to inform them that you're not avoiding their pronoun to erase their identity but because it is triggering to other present company and you're trying to respect them both by not misgendering them and not triggering the other).

[Shienvien]

@Selm: On what account do you judge one thing or another to be "inherently damaging" without any further background given?

 

To me, whether someone is human - such as I personally am - or not is utterly insignificant. A person is a person is a person and this is all that ultimately matters. If we ever encountered aliens of comparable intelligence or constructed an artificial mind, then those would be persons, too, and thusly not inferior to humans.

[KageSora]

To me, whether someone is human - such as I personally am - or not is utterly insignificant. A person is a person is a person and this is all that ultimately matters. If we ever encountered aliens of comparable intelligence or constructed an artificial mind, then those would be persons, too, and thusly not inferior to humans.

Just to point out that in this context "dehumanizing" isn't got anything to do with if they're physically human or not.

 

It's stripping them of their personhood, saying they are lesser of a person, that they are more on par with an animal or an object than being an actual person.

[LaRose]

I thank it all boils down to not wanting to be put in a box. As a genderqueer/pansexual, I often feel odd having to choose between he/she/they. Perhaps it pronouns are simply a way for some people to avoid that feeling?

 

Personally, I would like to be referred to as Zie/Zer, simply to avoid gender binaries, because I really don't fit into any, but I don't like making people feel nervous about slipping up. So she/her, or whatever they find easiest, is fine with me.

 

P.S. I am biologically female. Thought I'd mention that to avoid certain questions.

Edited February 24, 2014 by LaRose

[Obscure_Trash]

So I just saw this earlier, but if anyone is updating their gender on facebook and you are not out to your family, do be careful! While fb won't post the change on your timeline, if you choose gender neutral pronouns, you'll be listed default as masculine for family members - ie if you were listed as someone's daughter, you could find yourself now listed as their son because you chose "them/they" for your pronoun. Someone was outed to their family earlier due to this. =X

[KageSora]

So I just saw this earlier, but if anyone is updating their gender on facebook and you are not out to your family, do be careful! While fb won't post the change on your timeline, if you choose gender neutral pronouns, you'll be listed default as masculine for family members - ie if you were listed as someone's daughter, you could find yourself now listed as their son because you chose "them/they" for your pronoun. Someone was outed to their family earlier due to this. =X

Man, that sucks. D:

 

And they seemed to have been doing so well... That's a pretty big screw-up on their end...

 

Personally, I would like to be referred to as Zie/Zer, simply to avoid gender binaries, because I really don't fit into any, but I don't like making people feel nervous about slipping up. So she/her, or whatever they find easiest, is fine with me.

Honestly, not wanting to make people uncomfortable isn't a good way to go about it.

 

If they don't like your gender identity and think they can't learn your new pronouns, that's their problem not yours. A great way to put it is if people can learn to start calling a person by a new last name when they get married, they can sure as heck learn to start using your new pronouns.

 

However, if you are genuinely okay with people using other pronouns for you, then that's another story.

[Marrionetta]

-zips through thread-

 

Hello I am Marrionetta. I identify as a cisgender woman. I use the pronouns she/her and I present as feminine.

 

-zips out-

[Bacon_Strips]

After a long time of thinking about it, I've realized that I identify as strictly male.

[Bex]

I am biologically female but identify as intersex. If there was such a think as transitioning to intersex medically I would do it. But medical science can't give me what I want so I typically come off as a dominant femme.

 

Cheers!

[tyto_alba]

I am biologically female but identify as intersex. If there was such a think as transitioning to intersex medically I would do it. But medical science can't give me what I want so I typically come off as a dominant femme.

 

Cheers!

As someone who has a type of intersexism, can I ask why you want to be intersex, or do you just generally feel that's what'd be right for you? Thanks. (:

[Bex]

I think to fully explain would be better reserved for PM, so I think I'll just say that generally I feel that it would suit me best. I experience most of the same symptoms as those diagnosed with gender dysphoria.