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Coelophysis

Gender and Gender Identity

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Nope, there's a world of difference. The words, for example. Go through your life as you want, but this isn't the first time it's been deemed transphobic, and you'd be hard pressed to find a trans woman who didn't find that stance offensive and transmisogynistic.

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As a trans person, I used to use the asterisk too and tell others to use it. They likely did not realize that it is problematic. It's not commonly known knowledge but it is slowly spreading.

 

I'm trying to be civil here but I'm sorry, that is horrifyingly transphobic. I sent a snippet of that message to a trans girl I know and she said it almost made her cry. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean they have to undergo sex reassignment surgery. I know plenty of trans people who have decided they're never going to! Plenty of trans people are happy with their body just the way it is.

 

Society has conditioned us to think "i am a lesbian, therefore i am not attracted to penis" when that's just not true. If you're a lesbian, you're not attracted to men. Trans women are women. Their genitals are female genitals. unless you've had a traumatic experience with a penis there's no excuse!!! And I'm a little horrified right now because there are probably trans women and men who have undergone surgery when they didn't want to so that their partners would sleep with them. That's sad.

Well then I'll definitely stop using it then, thanks for letting us know. smile.gif

 

Wait a minute, hold on. I didn't say they had to. I didn't say all trans people do that. I am aware that some trans people do have the surgery, and some don't, and I would never pressure someone into doing something they don't want to do. But the same should be made for both partners, yes? I don't want to have sex with a penis. I just don't. Social conditioning or not, my body does not react to it positively and I do not want to put myself in a position where both I am uncomfortable sexually, and thus make my partner uncomfortable.

 

I am a lesbian. I am not attracted to men, and I am not attracted to penises. While the two are not synonymous all the time, that is still a part of my sexual identity and I am failing to understand why I am being considered transphobic when that is literally a product of my own sexuality.

 

I know trans women are women? I've said that repeatedly. That doesn't mean I'm automatically okay with having sex with a penis.

You don't need to have a traumatic experience with a penis in order to not want to be sexually involved with one.

 

 

Edit: Sock, the quote you had in your above post had a couple points that I feel describe my situation.

"Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer."

And then the last one you pointed out about the penis. I feel like that is an accurate depiction of how I feel. I do not and will not rule out all trans women simply because some happen to have a penis, and I don't even say I wouldn't date those that do. But I am not comfortable having sex with a person that does, and to me that will present a problem with a long term relationship, because sexual compatibility is important to me.

Maybe that's shallow, but sexual compatibility plays a significant role in my relationships.

Edited by Shiny Hazard Sign

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@ryou - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I, as a transman, would not consider it phobic to be told someone isn't comfortable with sex because I do not have a penis. Might I be hurt by it? Well, yes. But that's on a personal level, it doesn't mean the other party is phobic.

 

I'm afraid I'm not massively into the social politics of things. I just am who I am, and I say it as I see it.

 

I also confess to being slightly worried by the opposition to the use of Trans* because a lot of the objections to it are a) very convoluted a B) on tumblr, which is not somewhere I've come to view as a hot-bed of common sense.

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Ooookay I'm over this topic because I doubt any of you are going to change your minds. It's transphobic to not want to have sex with a trans person because you don't like their genitals that's just how it goes.

 

"Not somewhere I've come to view as a hot bed of common sense" more like you probably got called out once lmao. Tumblr may have its problems but I've never seen anywhere on the internet more ready to dismantle racism, sexism, ableism and cissexism.

 

I'm going to unsubscribe from this. I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed in this forum. I was excited that there was a thread for gender identity, only slightly discouraged that people were using incorrect terminology....maybe I have been spending too much time on Tumblr, but I'd rather be politically correct and know the politics of what I'm talking about than be uneducated and harmful to others.

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What, so you weren't being sexist when you claimed in your first post that all cis guys are dangerous and have issues?

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Ah-okay? That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I guess it may never. I don't want to have sex with many people for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't have to do with who they are (unless they're a raging jerkward or a guy).

 

Edit: I feel like that's saying, "So what if you're physically uncomfortable with it? Stop being physically uncomfortable with it!" and magically I'll just stop being uncomfortable?

Like... it doesn't work that way....?

Edited by Shiny Hazard Sign

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Ooookay I'm over this topic because I doubt any of you are going to change your minds. It's transphobic to not want to have sex with a trans person because you don't like their genitals that's just how it goes.

 

"Not somewhere I've come to view as a hot bed of common sense" more like you probably got called out once lmao. Tumblr may have its problems but I've never seen anywhere on the internet more ready to dismantle racism, sexism, ableism and cissexism.

 

I'm going to unsubscribe from this. I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed in this forum. I was excited that there was a thread for gender identity, only slightly discouraged that people were using incorrect terminology....maybe I have been spending too much time on Tumblr, but I'd rather be politically correct and know the politics of what I'm talking about than be uneducated and harmful to others.

Hrrrm. No, actually. I never have and never will post on Tumblr. This would kind of preclude my being 'called out' on anything (although, to be fair, if I ever *was* I find it incredibly funny, especially if it were a cishet 'campaigner' type.). What you see as 'ready to dismantle racism, sexism, ableism and cissexism' has often come across to me (in the blogs I've been linked to) as 'holier-than-thou, judgemental and intolerant'. Tumblr blogs are *not* places I would point people I wished to educate on the issues too.

 

Also, before you judge, may I suggest you read through the sexism thread and take a long look at the discussion that went on between myself and someone supporting radical feminism.

 

I'm sorry you feel you can't stay simple because people are disagreeing with you. This is a discussion forum, there are going to be dissenting opinions. We don't sit around and pat each other on the back about how enlightened we are - we tackle issues head on. I, as a trans person, am disagreeing with you (another person whyo identifies as trans). If I am saying that I do not find something to be phobic or harmful then my opinion on that is perfectly valid. It does not become less valid simply because it does not line up with yours.

 

Although, really, DILLIGAF.

 

Edit to add: Thank you for clarifying there, Sock. It seems we don't disgree as much as I thought we did. I'm just going to bold something here because it reads to me as the question that Haze has been getting at

 

Things which are not transphobic:

 

•Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.

•Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.

•Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.

 

Because nothing Haze said indicated that she was ruling out transwomen, just that she was uncomfortable with penises. Which, in and of itself, is not transphobic. Not as far as I am concerned (and, apparently, not as far your Socky's scource is concerned either).

Edited by TikindiDragon

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It's a bit unreasonable to expect society at large not to use terms that transfolk themselves are using.

Happens all the time though and in all walks of life.

 

The constant struggle to use the currently pc term for black people for example baffles me. Currently (in Germany) black people themselves say black, but want white people to say dark-skinned.

 

By all means, I'll call them that, but I still find it a little funny.

 

Re. attracted to a person's body -

 

I don't have much to say to that, xd.png pretty much sums it up. "Force yourself to sleep with people you're not attracted to, it's for the cause!" Forgive me if I find that to be completely irrational and slightly dangerous.

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"Not somewhere I've come to view as a hot bed of common sense" more like you probably got called out once lmao. Tumblr may have its problems but I've never seen anywhere on the internet more ready to dismantle racism, sexism, ableism and cissexism.

uh im on tumblr and ive never been called out for anything but i cant really blame TikindiDragon at all i've seen some ridiculous stuff on that website?? not liking the stuff on tumblr doesnt mean you've gotten called out for anything heck all the people i know on tumblr all admit how bad some of the stuff on there is and they have also never been called out the reputation isnt the best

 

I don't have much to say to that, XD pretty much sums it up. "Force yourself to sleep with people you're not attracted to, it's for the cause!" Forgive me if I find that to be completely irrational and slightly dangerous.

this is basically the vibe im getting

Edited by Switch

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It's transphobic to not want to have sex with a trans person because you don't like their genitals that's just how it goes.

 

...no? As far as I'm aware, not everyone is pansexual? o_o

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Bit late to the party, but I base sexual attraction based on sex. If someone is sexually male, then I cannot experience a physical attraction to that, whether they define as female or not (But I'm pointedly transphobic anywhales, so I guess that doesn't matter much. What with me, like, ya know, being female now xd.png)

 

I am perfectly willing to accept you as whatever gender you like, but if your sex doesn't match my sexual orientation, then that's that

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I also sent my question to a personal friend of mine who is a trans girl, and she started laughing and said it was ridiculous to think that not wanting to have sex with a penis is transphobic. She said, and I quote, "Everyone has their preferences, and you can't force someone out of their comfort zone in a sexual experience just because you think it's wrong of them to feel that way. I'm a trans lesbian and would never have sex with someone with a penis, mostly because I think its gross and I wouldn't be able to be sexually involved with someone that had one. It's totes fine to have preferences when it comes to sex because the compatibility between two people in that situation is really important. To tell someone that they have to have sex with someone that has a penis to not be transphobic is stupid. If someone I'm dating doesn't want to have sex with mine, that's their choice and I won't hold it against them. Hell even I don't want to have sex with mine, I don't blame them!"

 

 

It's difficult to figure out stuff when different people from the same community tell you conflicting view points... ><;

 

 

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^ This post has a list of everything that was added: http://illbeyourbrooklyn.tumblr.com/post/7...gender-settings

 

I tried changing mine earlier. The auto-completion thing wasn't working for me, but according to the list they really don't have what I was looking for anyway. >_> There are two other things I could go with, I suppose, but I just have my gender hidden still, lol.

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I was really happy--I got my preferred pronouns set to neutral, and was able to nicely pick "gender fluid". (I'd like if they could let you pick your own pronouns, but "them" in place of he/she is really nice especially since there's just a huge spectrum of pronouns with variations on spelling and all)

 

I also like how they have the ability to specify if you're cis or trans, rather than just assuming male/female automatically means you're cis. (And you can just leave the standard options if you just don't care)

Edited by KageSora

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I personally still just like my simple little pink thingy on here. I don't want to be anything outside that (I don't think it's a bad thing, just my opinion) I don't want to be seen as different for anything not absolutely necessary

 

Oh, and because I apparently failed to ask this still (I was shore I'd done it already... dry.gif)

 

Sock, you said elsewhere that people didn't like being referred to as "it" due to it being dehumanizing. If I may ask, do you know why that's problematic? I guess I just can't understand actually wanting to be human (To bad there aren't any female dehumanizing pronouns for me, that'd be cool) IDK, maybe I'm just being an idiot and digging myself into another hole. It's just hard for me to comprehend

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Sock, you said elsewhere that people didn't like being referred to as "it" due to it being dehumanizing. If I may ask, do you know why that's problematic? I guess I just can't understand actually wanting to be human (To bad there aren't any female dehumanizing pronouns for me, that'd be cool) IDK, maybe I'm just being an idiot and digging myself into another hole. It's just hard for me to comprehend

There are some people who are okay with "it" pronouns, but unless someone specifically clarifies that you should refer to them with it pronouns, you should never, ever do it.

 

I'm not sure why you're confused on why it's problematic when you've hit the nail on the head, even if it's not how you feel: "I guess I just can't understand actually wanting to be human". "It" implies someone is an object, undeserving of even the correct/respectful pronoun. It's dehumanizing. People aren't not people just because they are nonbinary. The problem is that nonbinary people are already considered subhuman by society at large. Where they don't feel safe enough to enter the correct bathroom. Where slurs may be thrown at them on the street and they can get arrested for defending themselves (ex. CeCe McDonald). Where people like Piers Morgan claim to be allies and then use incredibly problematic statements and try to silence actual nonbinary people. By automatically dehumanizing them, you're just belittling and demeaning them. I get demoted to "it" all the time when I speak up about my rights.

"Oh, look, it's trying to communicate with us!" is an actual thing that has actually been said to me. I can't remember what I said, but I wasn't even arguing with anybody. I think I was asking that someone else's preferred pronouns be respected or something.

"It" is used a lot to dehumanize and demean people. It can be quite triggering. And that's why you shouldn't use it as a gender neutral pronoun for people unless they've asked you to/stated "it" is their preferred pronoun.

 

If you identify with it and are okay being referred to as it, that's fine - that's your choice (although you've got some severe self-loathing going on that I really hope you explore sometime so you can recognize your own worth). And, I will mention, that if someone asked me to refer to them as "it" in order to degrade them, I'd be incredibly uncomfortable with that. =U

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I guess that sorta makes sense. I suppose I'll never really get it though, since it's not a feeling I experience >_<

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It seems like most everything has been said in this thread already, but I'd like to put in my two cents, that how one is viewed as a teenage trans/genderqueer/genderfluid/ trans*/agender/bigender/generally non-cis or gender minority, versus how one is treated as an adult and part of the workforce, can be extremely different. The issues of terminology and asterisks suddenly seem like very, very small tempests in teapots when you are desperately trying to get the BIG things out of the way, like changing gender markers on your paperwork or trying to explain things to your bosses.

 

While it IS important to use proper terminology (especially for the education of the young, who are going to grow up and make new laws), in some cases you just don't have time to deal with those details because you're in a life-or-death struggle to get medical care or work out the details of a divorce.

 

So I'm saying people may have different priorities during their transition. People who transition after their teenage years might NOT be up-to-date on the most PC of terms and morality issues, because much social change HAPPENS in youth culture. That is one of the great points about college kids. wink.gif

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^The thing in question here, though, is the use of "it" which has been used in a dehumanizing context for quite a while.

 

It's not just a word that's used with gender identities other than cis, but has been used to dehumanize people for their sexuality, for the biologically female, and for their race, among other things.

 

"It" is a word that's used to strip the personhood of the subject, to reduce them to a sub-human creature or an object.

 

"It" has been a rude, offensive, and not PC way to refer to people for far more than just gender identity reasons. So "They're too buys to know that 'it' isn't PC for gender stuff" isn't actually a valid excuse.

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Oh I should have been more clear, I was trying to talk about the previous discussion with the word trans* and trans and "transman" versus "trans man" etc., not the use of the word "it" as gender neutral. In English that's not appropriate (any more).

 

I have read in Victorian and Edwardian novels, that "it" was used to refer to a baby or child less than primary-school age, as in "The child ran to its mother's arms", even when the child has been given a gender or is a character in the novel. The appropriateness of pronouns is a feature of the fluidity of language. My parents' generation seem to use "it" for all animals, even pets, although I would never call a pet "it" if I know the gender.

 

Of course, in our time and culture "it" is certainly dehumanizing and objectifying, the same as referring to a person by their trait rather than using it as an adjective (Eg. "a transsexual" vs. "a trans person").

 

I don't think calling someone "it" is ever appropriate.

 

But people who aren't on the internet or read about transgender issues often (such as my roommate, a 37 year old trans woman) wouldn't know that some people use an asterisk on trans*.

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I'm really happy for the change they made on Facebook. Although I'm not out to the people on there, I could still pick agender and just have it hidden. :3

 

"It" is a very difficult pronoun for me to use for people who request it. It makes me feel like such an awful person for using it, but you also have to respect people's wishes, so it's a difficult situation. "It" is a very touchy pronoun that shouldn't be used lightly.

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I'm all kinds of confused about my gender right now. I think I'm a guy but if I am I'm a damn feminine one. xd.png Some days I just want to be a girl. Long hair, girly clothes, makeup. All that stuff. But some days I want so badly to be completely male. I really don't know. I'm just going along with it for now but I wish it wasn't so complicated!

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@Moeru - I don't think anybody was knocked for not knowing trans with an asterisk is problematic. I asked for why it was (and then went to go research myself) and received a very kind and very patient answer from someone who was glad I was open to listening. The conversation continued via PM and at no point was I attacked then either. And I note this as someone who started using trans with an asterisk and was still not attacked for doing so, even though I should have done better research before using it. Unfortunately, at the time when people were talking about it here, the most common search results were how it was inclusive, not on how it wasn't really inclusive.

 

Even keeping yourself constantly educated on things, you're going to be slower to hear about things than others. The real test is how you react when people point out something you're doing that is potentially problematic.

 

/did I totally misunderstand the conversation you were replying to?

 

Lupe - that's all you can really do - go with the flow as the current changes! Even if you don't figure it out one day, I'm sure you won't be alone, lol.

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