Abortion

[lightbird]

Said as a guy. Sorry - but.... Women can KNOW they never ever want children. This comes as a surprise to so many people - usually men - who KNOW that underneath it all, ALL women have a maternal instinct.

 

See under doctors (ALWAYS male, for this one) who tell you you don't want that REALLY....

It's a long known fact that sometimes animals, too, refuse their offspring, so yeah, it should be no surprise that human females might be unwilling, too.

 

There was a recent study about there being genetic markers in mice that correlate with refusing babies, but I can't find it through google just now. ;__;

 

 

 

OH AND TO ADD TO WHAT A MAN THINKS - IF HE DESPERATELY WANTS TO HAVE CHILDREN, IT *WILL* BE A RELATIONSHIP DEALBREAKER FOR ME.

Edited March 25, 2014 by lightbird

[whitebaron]

Don't try to subject me to your views when they vary.

what the.... I am male, so I must mean my opinion as law, is that it? Because I NOWHERE stated what you wrote up there.

 

@fuzz:same.

 

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

[Fuzzbucket]

what the.... I am male, so I must mean my opinion as law, is that it? Because I NOWHERE stated what you wrote up there.

 

@fuzz:same.

 

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

You said opinions might change. You are assuming that of a woman, in this context. There is an attitude among men - and equally, I didn't say you necessarily held it, just that you ARE a man - that says all women really want to be mothers. That is not the case. Is all.

 

And as someone said- there is always artificial insemination and implantation. The huge issue here is that WOMEN - in the case of abortion and in the case of sterilisation - are so very very often assumed not to know their own minds. This even carries over into sex, actually - the woman who said no to rape "wanted it REALLY" has been used as a defence in court more often than anyone should wish - and worse - has been used SUCCESSFULLY; the rapist has got off.

 

Women have minds and know them. Just like men.

[lightbird]

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

Yes, I know that. I have thought about this since I was a teenager, and as I've grown older (I'm 26 now), reasons for not getting any children have only accumulated, not diminished. If I opt for tube ligation (which I can afford right now, I just need time off for the hospital stay etc.) and due to some enlightenment years later change my mind, then it'll be my responsibility to deal with it.

 

Unless you have telepathic abilities or a machine that can somehow gauge someone's reasoning intensity behind a resolution by barely knowing them through a forum, you can't say that they WILL regret something. Especially when it's something that you, being male-bodied would never even hypothetically have to go through.

 

Also, contraception costs (like the pill) can easily rack up over the years to the cost of sterilization and, if that happens, subsequent IVF.

Edited March 25, 2014 by lightbird

[pudding]

what the.... I am male, so I must mean my opinion as law, is that it? Because I NOWHERE stated what you wrote up there.

 

@fuzz:same.

 

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

It's not just you, it's an idea that people have where everyone must share their opinion. If you are of age and are not hurting anyone (other than yourself), you should be able to do what you want. And this includes early sterilizations. People should be allowed to make decisions for themselves without being treated like children who don't know what they're doing.

[hydrargyrum]

You know what else is a major life-changing decision? Having a baby. Why do people only say "well, you might change your mind!!" when deciding they want to be sterilized? I never see people cautioning someone that they might change their mind about wanting children when they're talking about getting pregnant.

 

I personally place myself in the "I don't want kids, but I might change my mind". But that's just me, and I know perfectly well that lots of people don't change their minds, so extrapolating to other people is ridiculous.

[Infinis]

I'd certainly go for sterilization if it wasn't so hard, to prevent an unwanted child in case of an accident. Although all these laws and regulations make it seem like they don't want people to get sterilized. Then there's my grandparents doing the well-known "but we want great-grandchildren!" excuse. Sorry guys, you can count me out. Look to my brother if you want that.

It's not necessarily that they don't want you to be sterilized; rather it's that so many people in general, medical and not, still hold the misguided view that all women have a maternal instinct and that if you say you don't want children that your maternal instinct hasn't kicked in yet.

 

I don't want children of my own; I'm not even sure I'd ever consider adopting, either. I would be a horrible parent. I can't deal with things that scream and tantrum, I don't have the energy levels to keep up with a hyperactive little kid that needs to run and play, and I'm commonly forgetful (I'll even forget to eat if I'm doing something interesting).

The thought of having something completely dependent on me for survival (when I clearly can't always depend on me for survival) is unthinkable and impractical.

On top of that, I don't feel like being pregnant. Too much that can go wrong and I don't well with pain of any kind.

Let's not forget my self-admitted selfishness either: I don't want to give up my life, and I'd rather have money for fine jewelry and stuff. v:

 

Seems like too much work. I'd rather have pets.

 

It seems to me that people who really want to stop abortion would also be advocates of sterilization (stopping unwanted pregnancies entirely) for those who want it and/or advocates of good birth control. Instead I see a number of antichoicers not advocating for either of those...I don't know how they expect their stance to hold up, then, because people have been having sex since forever for a number of reasons and I really don't think it's going to stop.

[whitebaron]

Also, contraception costs (like the pill) can easily rack up over the years to the cost of sterilization and, if that happens, subsequent IVF.

err. no. costs for contraceptives can NEVER rack up to the costs of IVF. IVF is very expensive! Yes, you might get it paid by health services in the country you live in, but thats not everywhere.

 

You know what else is a major life-changing decision? Having a baby. Why do people only say "well, you might change your mind!!" when deciding they want to be sterilized? I never see people cautioning someone that they might change their mind about wanting children when they're talking about getting pregnant.

You do not have a baby. So don't assume people don't do this to you, because I've seen as much of that as I have seen the typically "when will you finally have a baby?"

 

 

[High Lord November]

what the.... I am male, so I must mean my opinion as law, is that it? Because I NOWHERE stated what you wrote up there.

 

@fuzz:same.

 

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

Yeah, well then there's also being able to handle the consequences of your decision. If later in life you find you do want a child? Artificial insemination? Adoption? Maybe just saying "too bad, so sad"?

 

I know myself, and I know that I do not want to get pregnant. I also know that, for me personally, I could change my mind and I still have university to experience, so I'm not going to bother getting one right now. Other people? They'll know themselves well enough to make a decision.

 

The reason people are commenting so much is because of this little tidbit

I still think that early sterilization is a mistake

It isn't a mistake. We know our bodies and our mindsets well enough. If we do happen to make a mistake, then we can deal with the consequences ourselves. You don't know us better than we know ourselves, which is what that statement implies; that we don't know ourselves well enough to know if we'll want a baby/to get pregnant or not, which then brings up the link to "Well your maternal instincts just haven't kicked in yet!"

[Infinis]

It isn't a mistake. We know our bodies and our mindsets well enough. If we do happen to make a mistake, then we can deal with the consequences ourselves. You don't know us better than we know ourselves, which is what that statement implies; that we don't know ourselves well enough to know if we'll want a baby/to get pregnant or not, which then brings up the link to "Well your maternal instincts just haven't kicked in yet!"

To be fair there are a number of people who won't or refuse to deal with the consequences of their actions in a rational and mature manner. I'd imagine that early sterilization is difficult in part because medical personnel don't need people coming back ten years later to serve them with a lawsuit for reasons like "you didn't do enough to convince me otherwise and now I want biological children!"

 

It's not a far-fetched theory when people have sued others for even more stupid and immature reasons.

 

Every person knows themselves best, but we also cannot argue that we don't change, either, and we often don't change predictably. Either way, it's an individual's choice to get sterilized, but individuals who make that choice should also be informed and be able to deal with their decision and its generally lifelong consequences that come with it in a rational, mature manner.

[whitebaron]

The reason people are commenting so much is because of this little tidbit

 

It isn't a mistake. We know our bodies and our mindsets well enough. If we do happen to make a mistake, then we can deal with the consequences ourselves. You don't know us better than we know ourselves, which is what that statement implies; that we don't know ourselves well enough to know if we'll want a baby/to get pregnant or not, which then brings up the link to "Well your maternal instincts just haven't kicked in yet!"

thats the same old argument all over again.

because i am a male, I MUST think that all females want kids and thus, all my statements must be made in some kind of superiority complex...

 

fact: i never said any of those things. i just gave my opinion, and you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake. it was a mistake to get back in this thread, remedying that now.

[Fuzzbucket]

thats the same old argument all over again.

because i am a male, I MUST think that all females want kids and thus, all my statements must be made in some kind of superiority complex...

 

fact: i never said any of those things. i just gave my opinion, and you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake. it was a mistake to get back in this thread, remedying that now.

No, You are missing the point. People are saying that men often think that way. Not necessarily that you are. But - you are rather coming over that way.

[Syaoransbear]

If I was sterilized and then wanted kids later I would just adopt. If you only want a child that's related to you, then you probably don't actually want a child, you probably just want to reproduce. And that's just instincts talking.

[Brite]

If I was sterilized and then wanted kids later I would just adopt. If you only want a child that's related to you, then you probably don't actually want a child, you probably just want to reproduce. And that's just instincts talking.

I'd just adopt. "Blood is thicker than water" that term to me is absolute bs. And plus, I certainly do not want my genes passing..

[pudding]

I'd just adopt. "Blood is thicker than water" that term to me is absolute bs. And plus, I certainly do not want my genes passing..

Actually, I think that proverb is true. Only, for me, it's not blood as in family blood. It's blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. So choosen friends are stronger than family ties. I like this a lot more because outside of my immediate family, our family is broken and divided. My friends help me and care for me a lot more than my family does.

[High Lord November]

thats the same old argument all over again.

because i am a male, I MUST think that all females want kids and thus, all my statements must be made in some kind of superiority complex...

 

fact: i never said any of those things. i just gave my opinion, and you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake. it was a mistake to get back in this thread, remedying that now.

Can you please, please drop the "I'm a male any word against me must be because I'm a male and not because of my argument or what I said." You bring it up all the time. I'd be saying these things regardless of your gender, because I have an issue with what you're saying, not with your gender. There will be a difference in how we (men and women) perceive things, because both genders do not have the same experiences and worldview and perspective. That doesn't automatically mean we're "attacking" you because of your gender. We will debate your opinion with a different perspective, and try to make you aware of the differences, as I'm sure you will to us. The only thing is, when you're debating whether women feel ready or "just haven't hit their maternal instinct age yet", I'm pretty sure women have the first-hand experience.

 

I explained why you came off that way. It might not be your intention, but there's intention, and then there's how it's perceived and the effect it has. You need to be aware of that, and not just go to "you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake" when someone disagrees. Consider the possibility that you might have actually said something wrong or something that would come off as wrong before doing that.

 

 

To be fair there are a number of people who won't or refuse to deal with the consequences of their actions in a rational and mature manner. I'd imagine that early sterilization is difficult in part because medical personnel don't need people coming back ten years later to serve them with a lawsuit for reasons like "you didn't do enough to convince me otherwise and now I want biological children!"

 

It's not a far-fetched theory when people have sued others for even more stupid and immature reasons.

 

That is very true and I did not consider it from that point, yes. I'm guessing it's also more common in the States for that to happen because of how the system is set up?

 

Every person knows themselves best, but we also cannot argue that we don't change, either, and we often don't change predictably. Either way, it's an individual's choice to get sterilized, but individuals who make that choice should also be informed and be able to deal with their decision and its generally lifelong consequences that come with it in a rational, mature manner.

 

Yeah, I'm also arguing from the point that they're well-informed. It shouldn't be let out freely, but I'm assuming that, since it's a bit decision, it'll be a bit less of a haphazard occurrence. The system someone mentioned with the mandatory seminar (in Switzerland?) sounded good. There will still be people who regret, like with everything, but I'll trust them to make the best decision for themselves.

Edited March 26, 2014 by High Lord November

[Infinis]

That is very true and I did not consider it from that point, yes. I'm guessing it's also more common in the States for that to happen because of how the system is set up?

I think it's not really how the system is set up so much as how people deal with it. Medical personnel pay a lot for malpractice insurance, so generally they try not to do stuff that would get them sued because, as with all insurance, your premiums go up if you do something bad. The overall immaturity of the American populace is the problem - people have tried to sue despite contracts and signed agreements, for example.

Too many people just don't pay attention and end up uninformed because of themselves, not the system. A sterilization is something you have to see at least one doctor for - there is literally no excuse for being uninformed, because the system provides resources for people to get informed, from something as simple as the doctor giving you a piece of paper to read or answering all your questions (and in my experience most doctors will explain the procedure and stuff to you ANYWAY - in office, no less). Nurses can be helpful too. The internet is readily available free in many locations, from libraries to fast food joints, so you can get your info off the net. There is almost no way to not be informed unless you just aren't paying attention.

 

Granted I don't believe it's a very common occurrence anyway, since here in the States it's hard to get voluntarily sterilized if you're below 35 and without children to begin with, and by the time you're 35 and just now wanting kids you're at the point where you're going to want to do it quick since age increases the possibility of defects.

 

Yeah, I'm also arguing from the point that they're well-informed. It shouldn't be let out freely, but I'm assuming that, since it's a bit decision, it'll be a bit less of a haphazard occurrence. The system someone mentioned with the mandatory seminar (in Switzerland?) sounded good. There will still be people who regret, like with everything, but I'll trust them to make the best decision for themselves.

 

I like the Swiss system, yeah. "You MUST be informed!" yes, I like this. I like this a lot.

 

whitebaron - no one is responding the way they are because you're male. X: I don't really care what gender people are, I'm going to respond the same way.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Infinis

[MasterWeavile898]

I think you're overreacting Whitebaron. And while it's true that people around here do have a tendency to act like that, I'm not detecting that here

 

As for me, I am never having kids. Ever. At least not biological ones. It's not happening, and I don't care if you think I'll change my mind. Children are wonderful, or start being so around the age of six or seven, but there's so many different obstacles for me that I'm just not comfortable with dealing with

 

Oh, and the whole "you'll want them eventually" attitude, isn't just directed towards females. I've experienced my own share of that plenty lately

[KageSora]

@lightbird: you can study later in life, and switching jobs comes pretty naturally if your intetests change. Changing physical decisions is not that easy, and should thus always be considered a lot more intensely. Even though there are maybe other options to get around sterilization, its a)expensive and c) a very slim chance as it is.

Can't speak for other countries, but here in America that's not as easy as it sounds.

 

Unless you can change your job without additional schooling.

 

Education is prohibitively expensive these days, so if you have to go back to school to change jobs it's likely that you're already buried under a mountain of debt and that you'll just be adding to it.

 

Kinda like how sterilization is expensive, huh?

 

I still think that early sterilisation is a mistake, unless there are medical reasons(yes, that includes various phobias) or you already have children. Life is not very constant, and that you might change your opinion, should be an important factor in any decision.

Same can be said of virtually anything. You might change your mind on literally anything.

 

So unless your solution to any life-changing choice is to just not do anything, then really your argument shouldn't even come up here unless you make it every time somebody considers some choice that's an extreme change in their current lifestyle and their potential futures.

 

Personally, I've never wanted a kid to have a kid. The most I've had is a curiosity about pregnancy, but that's it. I'd never go through it for somebody else, and even if I WANTED a kid I know I'd be a horrible parent. I mean, I can barely even take care of myself--how in the WORLD would I take care of a KID???

 

You know what else is a major life-changing decision? Having a baby. Why do people only say "well, you might change your mind!!" when deciding they want to be sterilized? I never see people cautioning someone that they might change their mind about wanting children when they're talking about getting pregnant.

Yeah, same here. I NEVER hear people go "Oh, you want a baby? But you might change your mind! Don't you know how much work it'll be? Don't you know what you'll have to give up? You shouldn't have a baby--you should wait and if you REALLY want a kid when you're older you can just adopt!"

 

thats the same old argument all over again.

because i am a male, I MUST think that all females want kids and thus, all my statements must be made in some kind of superiority complex...

 

fact: i never said any of those things. i just gave my opinion, and you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake. it was a mistake to get back in this thread, remedying that now.

You don't have to explicitly states something to fall into a category.

 

Your previous posts and your continued posts speak just as loud as, if not louder than, the things you claim you aren't explicitly saying. Protip: Things like "you crazy women are all over me again, ready to burn me at the stake" does't earn you any good points. Even as a joke.

 

That said, I'd take just as much issue with your opinion if you were biologically female. I don't care male, female, or other. It's your views not your sex that I have an issue with.

 

Actually, I think that proverb is true. Only, for me, it's not blood as in family blood. It's blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.

IIRC, that's actually the full quote--it's usually just shortened and misinterpreted.

[Tazzay]

Personally, I've never wanted a kid to have a kid. The most I've had is a curiosity about pregnancy, but that's it. I'd never go through it for somebody else, and even if I WANTED a kid I know I'd be a horrible parent. I mean, I can barely even take care of myself--how in the WORLD would I take care of a KID???

I can second this.

 

With various mental disorders and my very quick temper when it comes to interacting with people (physically, not on the internet), I can say that i'd be a horrible parent. Little kids annoy me easily, which is why I tend to stay away from them.

 

I would never even consider raising a child, not evem if a partner of mine begged me to. And if I was forced to raise one, it would certainly damage my already unstable mental health. It's not my thing, and it would be likely that the output wouldn't be pretty. If the arrival of my brother had my (step)dad and I at each other's throats, i'd hate to see what would happen between me and a partner.

[Brite]

I can second this.

 

With various mental disorders and my very quick temper when it comes to interacting with people (physically, not on the internet), I can say that i'd be a horrible parent. Little kids annoy me easily, which is why I tend to stay away from them.

 

I would never even consider raising a child, not evem if a partner of mine begged me to. And if I was forced to raise one, it would certainly damage my already unstable mental health. It's not my thing, and it would be likely that the output wouldn't be pretty. If the arrival of my brother had my (step)dad and I at each other's throats, i'd hate to see what would happen between me and a partner.

Now that I think about it, that's another reason why I wouldn't want my genes spread. I thought about donating my eggs but then the couples that use them for implantation and fertilization would have to deal with my mental problems passed on to the child..

 

 

[KageSora]

Okay, I know that stats are posted in this thread often about the adoption system, but I cannot find ANY of the posts that have them.

 

Can somebody point me to where I can get stats for how many kids are actually adopted each year?

[Fuzzbucket]

Okay, I know that stats are posted in this thread often about the adoption system, but I cannot find ANY of the posts that have them.

 

Can somebody point me to where I can get stats for how many kids are actually adopted each year?

US or worldwide ?

 

This looks like a fairly reliable US site...

 

Here we see the following:

In the U.S. 400,540 children are living without permanent families in the foster care system.  115,000 of these children are eligible for adoption, but nearly 40% of these children will wait over three years in foster care before being adopted.

and

Over three years is the average length of time a child waits to be adopted in foster care.  Roughly 55% of these children have had three or more placements.  An earlier study found that 33% of children had changed elementary schools five or more times, losing relationships and falling behind educationally.

 

and

Adopted children make-up roughly 2% of the total child population under the age of 18, but 11% of all adolescents referred for therapy have been adopted.  Post-adoption services are important to all types of adoption, whether foster care adoption, international adoption, or domestic infant adoption.

Edited April 13, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Obscure_Trash]

Okay, I know that stats are posted in this thread often about the adoption system, but I cannot find ANY of the posts that have them.

 

Can somebody point me to where I can get stats for how many kids are actually adopted each year?

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry6504218

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry6410063

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry7823371

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry7310108

 

A lot of those are just the same stats, but yeah. Shiny mentions rates going from 2%-3%/3%-4% to 1% - 2% at least in the last one.

[Brite]

Was flipping through and reading some other stories about abuse and tampering birth control..

 

I feel sorry for the children from the outcomes of those types of relationships. I know several old friends who were born from bad marriages. One of my guy friend's was a result of his father forcing his wife throw away her pills. She was going to abort but he being manipulative convinced her to keep her pregnancy and she was at first happy because she thought one of the worst things in a relationship where thinking a child will fix a marriage or change your partner for the better.

 

When he was 7 he remembered his mother becoming mental and blaming him, saying he was the reason why she no longer had a chance to leave her husband and start a new life.

 

It's scary to think how some women can be brainwashed in such ways. I cut a friend off from my life because I lost faith in her after finding out that she not only forgave her rapist(which isn't exactly wrong, I know), but she became best friends with him.