Posted June 27, 2014 you lot do realize it was a make-believe question (cant remember the word right now) for a world where it was normal and that was the only way to have kids I was 8 at the time and the only answers I ever got were uppity how dare you ones Yes, we know it's a hypothetical. However, you asked for reasons that weren't "how dare you not let me have kids," and we're trying to give them to you, in addition to the other considerations around the question. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 27, 2014 Well your 8-year-old self managed to describe a pretty terrifying dystopian society with that one question, which is why everyone is reacting so strongly to it. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 27, 2014 (If someone could find one of ShinyTomato's posts that'd be great.) I'm on it! *Note*: I am not perfect and I am also lazy. Some of the statistics ShinyTomato says in the following quotes may be repeated. I tried to get rid of some of the same exact stuff said over and over, but I may have missed some things. A doctor can and will refuse to abort to save the life of the mother: 47% of puerperal maternal death is from doctors refusing to administer life-saving medical procedures which would prolong the mother's life but pose risk to the fetus. 74% of those cases are because of the doctor's morals and the "conscience clause." Of that number, 22% of those pregnancies were before the legal cutoff for abortion in the United States. (Puerperal Death, Infant and Maternal, 2008, The Journal of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, Dr. Meredith Fresquez and Joan Christodoulou-Smith) 10 million women attempt suicide every year. 4 million because of pregnancy. In the US alone, 14,000 women committed suicide because of their pregnancies in 2009. Another 3,000 were inconclusive with suicide suspected. If they can't afford a baby, how are they going to afford to put a baby up for adoption? ---- The point that they're making, is that when abortion is illegal in the united states, infanticide goes up 25% and child abuse goes up 46%, and that's cases that are reported. ---- see my statistics above. Also to add to that --Of children in chronic children's wards, or those with congenital diseases, 87% wish that they'd never been born. Of those, 2-6% under 12 attempt suicide every year for the second or more time. 14-20% attempt it for the first time. Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000 only 8% of abortions are "irresponsible" people who knew it was possible for them to get pregnant and didn't bother with birth control, right? And no federal money, once again, funds abortion. And, only 2-3% of the children given up for adoption (when people actually have the money to do it) are actually adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home. Okay, touching on things quickly. Unfortunately, we do not, in this country, teach proper birth control and even when we do, it is not an option for everyone, nor is it always effective. Birth control is often tampered with by partners of both genders. Did you know, for example, that over a 25% of abortions occur because a partner lied that they were sterile, or tampered with birth control? The number of married women, or women in serious, long-term committed relationships aborting is steadily increasing. ---- Only 2-3% of children given up for adoption will be adopted. (2010 Social Services Survey and Census of Adoption and Foster Systems in the United States) Further, for quality of life of those not adopted: 1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted. (United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010) Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive: Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543 Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved. Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones. Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500 Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500 C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000 C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200 Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000 Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications) Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications) Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000 So, fact time! A. Only 10% of women who have abortions knew or understood that they were not protected at the time. B. Between 25-30% of abortions are caused by fraud -- a partner lying about sterility or tampering with birth control. C. It is illegal to be sterilized against your will in the US. D. it is also illegal to be sterilized in most states, unless you are over 35 and already have two children, unless there is a pressing health reason, despite not wanting to have children. E. The majority of abortions are those well above the poverty line. F. Not everyone can use certain kinds of birth control for various health or moral reasons and NFP is unreliable. G. Abstinence sex-ed doesn't teach how to avoid pregnancy beyond "don't do it." We need to fix the education system. Considering that 1 in 3 people will have a partner tamper with birth control or lie about their fertility, statistically -- yes you are. The majority of children in this world were unplanned (as high as 82%). Obviously, the number that abort, unplanned goes up, but not by much (84%) ---- You are 74% more likely to have any sort of complication with birth than with abortion. Of those that have complications from abortion, less than 5% affect sterility, and less than 1% pose any threat to life. That's much lower than with birth. (US CDC National Center For Health Statistics, Risk of Maternal Complications During Birth, Spontaneous Abortion and Clinical Abortion, 2011) I see the Box O' Statistics is still infamous. So, here we go. Only 1-2% of children who are given up to the state for adoption are being adopted. In children who are not adopted, 73% will state that they wish they had been aborted. 61% will state that their parents were selfish for not aborting them. 1 in 5 under twelve will attempt suicide before the year is out. 1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they were never born. The average age of social workers placing children on suicide watch nationwide has dropped from fourteen to 12. In states where abortion rights have been restricted since 2010, the incidence in abuse and neglect of infants has risen 45% (with a 2% margin of error.) Suicides of pregnant women are up 31% (4% margin of error as knowledge is hard to determine.) The average cost for giving a child up for adoption, after medical bills and care, has risen an average of $3,525 in the continental US. Here's my view on abortion v. adoption. Why would you be against preventing a fetus suffering before it has any guarantee of being human rather than put them into a system where they have a 88% chance of being molested or abused, a 90% chance of attempting suicide -- when we know for a fact through studies that 97% of the children failed to be adopted in the 18-month window will actively state (some as early as five) that they wish they had never been born? --- So, to tell me, who works in social services and still works as an "other options" counselor at a clinic that I have so "see thigns from all sides" and throwing the numbers of how many abortions have happened at me -- why not look at the numbers of how many children are put in care every year? How many are in care at any given time because of abuse (over 400,000) How many children are proven to be neglected each year: (872,000) How many die on average due to neglect in the home (2,560) How many are put in care because they were not adopted (120,000 in 2004, which has since risen to triple that) How many fatalities for under-five year olds are due to neglect (76%) How many calls CPS gets each year (3.2 million) How many cases actually get investigated: (64%) How many cases investigated get rereported (22%) And you want to put more children in the system? I already work overtime every week, am on-call when I'm not at work, and have been shot twice. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 27, 2014 Wow I have never been educated on the extreme harsh side of adoption, I have only been exposed to the successful happy adoption cases. I now see that adoption is a poor option, but there are still cases where it can end up to be a good option. Which is why I think women should have the right to have their baby adopted or aborted. I think neither should be restricted. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Wow I have never been educated on the extreme harsh side of adoption, I have only been exposed to the successful happy adoption cases. I now see that adoption is a poor option, but there are still cases where it can end up to be a good option. Which is why I think women should have the right to have their baby adopted or aborted. I think neither should be restricted. Yes, it's a really sad reality. :c And I really like the idea of adopting children. I do want to possibly have a child myself when I'm older, but I thought that if I want more I will adopt. I think it would be wonderful to get a child out of that horrid system. :3 But until I am ready for children, I will abort if I absolutely must! I do make sure to have safe sex, and sometimes if my boyfriend and I aren't 100% sure if something messed up or not, we've gone twice now to pick up Plan B pills for me. I'm lucky that I'm not unfortunate enough to not be able to take BC and Plan B pills and I'm not allergic to latex! I have a bunch of other weirdness going on with my body. I don't need those, too. Edited June 27, 2014 by edwardelricfreak Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 I don't know about you, but even assuming this were plausible and sustainable the idea of the government or a corporation or ANY organization having permanent access to my freaking DNA scares the absolute hell out of me. Amen. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 Wow I have never been educated on the extreme harsh side of adoption, I have only been exposed to the successful happy adoption cases. I now see that adoption is a poor option, but there are still cases where it can end up to be a good option. Which is why I think women should have the right to have their baby adopted or aborted. I think neither should be restricted. Not to mention internationally, people like to traffic babies because international adoption is basically an industry that cares little for the well-being of children...... But yes, adoption is a very very flawed system as it is atm. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 (edited) I'm lucky that I'm not unfortunate enough to not be able to take BC and Plan B pills and I'm not allergic to latex! I have a bunch of other weirdness going on with my body. I don't need those, too. Not to get too off topic here but... ARE there BC options for those who can't use the usual ones? Who couldn't take the pills and are allergic to latex or such? Edited June 28, 2014 by Silverswift Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 Not to get too off topic her but... ARE there BC options for those who can't use the usual ones? Who couldn't take the pills and are allergic to latex or such? One could use lambskin condoms, but they do not prevent the transmission of disease, including HIV. Information on Lambskin Condoms. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 Not to get too off topic her but... ARE there BC options for those who can't use the usual ones? Who couldn't take the pills and are allergic to latex or such? As prpldrgnfr said, there are lambskin condoms. I'm not sure about pills. I think there are possibly some alternatives, but they're incredibly uncommon and/or expensive. Because, you know, specialty things. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 There's that little bar thing that you can get implanted in your arm? As well as shots. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 Oh right I totally forgot about those I was trying to think of alternative pills lol. x3 Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 May some inserted devices also be an option when the pills you take in are not? I am not sure by memory how much the hormones overlap there. And where one pill doesn't work out, another might. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 (edited) May some inserted devices also be an option when the pills you take in are not? I am not sure by memory how much the hormones overlap there. And where one pill doesn't work out, another might. If you mean the subdermal implants, I know there's at least some overlap between the hormones there and the ones in oral BC pills, but I don't recall how many actually match. In the end, it would depend on what hormones were used as well as the "dosage" whether those would be valid for people who cannot take the pills. If you mean an IUD, there are non-hormonal versions that are an option for those sensitive to what's used in other BC options. Also, I seem to remember some kind of reversible tube-blocking system that doctors were doing trials on for male birth control, and they were slated to be on the market next year. Anyone know if that's still on target for release? Edited June 28, 2014 by Kith Share this post Link to post
Posted June 28, 2014 May some inserted devices also be an option when the pills you take in are not? I am not sure by memory how much the hormones overlap there. And where one pill doesn't work out, another might. I think you're thinking of the nuva rings, which in theory can help since the hormones don't travel through your whole body but instead directly to your uterous, but they use the same drugs. (source: testing them right now) Share this post Link to post
Posted June 29, 2014 I think you're thinking of the nuva rings, which in theory can help since the hormones don't travel through your whole body but instead directly to your uterous, but they use the same drugs. (source: testing them right now) Nuva ring didn't work for me. It was a pain. I feel blessed that I have an IUD, not only because it's hard to find, but my body accepts it and have had no complications. Which brings us back to not everything is right for everyone. My gyno thought I was nuts when I told her that I wanted sterilization asap and actually refused to tell me any information on doctors that COULD help. Yea, I switched to a new doc soon after that... Share this post Link to post
Posted June 29, 2014 Nuva ring didn't work for me. It was a pain. I feel blessed that I have an IUD, not only because it's hard to find, but my body accepts it and have had no complications. Which brings us back to not everything is right for everyone. My gyno thought I was nuts when I told her that I wanted sterilization asap and actually refused to tell me any information on doctors that COULD help. Yea, I switched to a new doc soon after that... I'll agree they are a pain, but at least you don't have to remember to take one every day. I actually talked about using an IUD, but if you have heavy cramping periods the non-hormonal one is out of the question, and since I already had evidence of issues with high dossages of hormones in my family my doctor decided on a temporary solution. I'm glad there are more things out there than just the pill though, I just wish they were avalible to more people. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 So the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Hobby Lobby for the owners to refuse contraceptive coverage in their health care for employees. Though I guess it's more of a religious thing, I'd say it still ties into this thread for the fact that contraceptives can often times prevent the need for abortions. All the links on the story: http://sourcefed.com/on-the-hobby-lobby-su...cision-opinion/ http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supr...ate-108429.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/30/politics/sco...-contraception/ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/us/hobby...ption.html?_r=0 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hobby-lobby...ory?id=24364311 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/30...rt-hobby-lobby/ Seriously though, the story is everywhere. I doubt anyone has to do more than search "supreme court hobby lobby" in any search engine to find every news outlet's webpage for the story. Honestly this looks like really bad news to me. :\ Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 So the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of Hobby Lobby for the owners to refuse contraceptive coverage in their health care for employees. Though I guess it's more of a religious thing, I'd say it still ties into this thread for the fact that contraceptives can often times prevent the need for abortions. All the links on the story: http://sourcefed.com/on-the-hobby-lobby-su...cision-opinion/ http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supr...ate-108429.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/30/politics/sco...-contraception/ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/us/hobby...ption.html?_r=0 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hobby-lobby...ory?id=24364311 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/30...rt-hobby-lobby/ Seriously though, the story is everywhere. I doubt anyone has to do more than search "supreme court hobby lobby" in any search engine to find every news outlet's webpage for the story. Honestly this looks like really bad news to me. :\ I see this as a horrible thing. I already know that when I'm done with my trial I have to fight my dad's insurance if I remain on BC. This case will make it easier for them to deny my claim. Really those who say the push against abortion isn't a war on women need to have this placed under their noses, though most probably agree with the decision. One thing I noticed is it doesn't seem to block the pill, but it blocks Plan B, both types of IUD's (hormonal and non-hormonal) and one other one that I haven't heard of. But with the case the way that it went I wouldn't be surprised if all forms become unaccessable because other companies follow suit with Hobby Lobby. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 They are only "Christian" when it suits them. Hobby Lobby Invests in Companies That Manufacture Contraceptives. What Hypocrites. Hobby Lobby's argument in Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby is that its religious opposition to some forms of contraception goes so deep that it represents a substantial burden for the company to allow its employees to use their own health care plans to purchase those forms of contraception. So it's no wonder that, in its piece revealing that Hobby Lobby's retirement plan invests "in the manufacturers of the same contraceptive products," Mother Jones accuses the company of "hypocrisy": It seems their employee retirement plan has a *lot* of money invested in companies that make the very forms of contraception they object to! *headdesk* They also covered all of them right up until they sued to block the ones they object to. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 They are only "Christian" when it suits them. Hobby Lobby Invests in Companies That Manufacture Contraceptives. What Hypocrites. It seems their employee retirement plan has a *lot* of money invested in companies that make the very forms of contraception they object to! *headdesk* They also covered all of them right up until they sued to block the ones they object to. Wow I knew they had critisisms about most of their stuff coming from China but now...really Hobby Lobby -.-. Welp I won't buy there again. Shame since it is a good craft store for yarn but really I can't support that. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 Yeah, my bf sent me a link to that story last night after I posted. I couldn't believe it! They won't support offering contraceptives to working employees, but will for retiring ones? I'm honestly confused. Maybe it's because "oh, well they're leaving now so it's okay" or something??? Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2014 Yeah, my bf sent me a link to that story last night after I posted. I couldn't believe it! They won't support offering contraceptives to working employees, but will for retiring ones? I'm honestly confused. Maybe it's because "oh, well they're leaving now so it's okay" or something??? I think its probably 'oh they're retireing their too old to have children, and they aren't as irresponsible as younger women'. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2014 The best summaries/comments of the Supreme Court's decision I've seen thus far are: We’ve told people that they must rely on their employers for health care in our Capitalist system, and then empowered employers to not provide adequate health care. Corporations are people. Women are not. And, crap. I can't find it now, but there was a really good one on how this was actually extremely hypocritical to the point of corporate personhood (not a surprise as CEOs have consistently warped that decision in order to chip away at workers' rights in order to pad their own pockets). Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2014 Honestly, the only way I could be okay with this is if they were legally required to not cover 100% of all kinds of contraception or procedures relating to that for both females AND for males if they wanted to not cover something or be forced to cover everything (since then there could be absolutely no bias, it'd be all or nothing), and would legally be forced to cover it if a doctor was able to provide documentation that the BC was required for a reason aside from pregnancy prevention (since, y'know, some types are done for other medical reasons and all). But, since that's clearly not how this works, I cannot think of this as anything but the most recent attempt to allow religion to be used to control or abuse people who don't follow the faith of another. There's been far too much of that of late. :/ Share this post Link to post
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