Abortion

[LascielsShadow]

Yeah, that... yeah. I'm glad it was resolved, but... yeah. :C

*nod* It shouldn't have even been an issue to begin with. Even a drafter of the legislation said it didn't apply in that case. That's the issue with laws like that. Even if intentions may be good, you run the risk of this happening. Those decisions need to not be legislated as if every family and every circumstance is precisely the same.

 

(Also, I'm trying really hard not to respond to that one post. I'm at a point right now where I just wouldn't be able to refrain from saying something nasty, because wow. Just...wow.)

Edited February 11, 2014 by LascielsShadow

[Brite]

~Removed for name calling~

 

AHEM

 

Isn't there someone in Canada going through something similar like the texas case of the brain dead woman?

Edited February 11, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[prpldrgnfr]

Yes, but from what I've read, she had no advance directive, it's her husbands choice, she was at 22 weeks, and supposedly the fetus is doing OK, as apparently it didn't suffer the lack of oxygen the Texas case had. Lemme see if I can find a link.

 

ETA:Found one

Edited February 11, 2014 by prpldrgnfr

[prpldrgnfr]

Update on the Canadian woman:

 

Brain-dead Canadian woman dies after son born

A 32-year-old Canadian woman who had been declared brain dead in December and kept on life support for six weeks died on Sunday soon after giving birth to a baby boy.

 

Robyn Benson was just 22 weeks pregnant when she collapsed from a cerebral hemorrhage and was declared brain dead. Doctors in Victoria, British Columbia, kept her alive at her husband's request so that their unborn baby would have a better chance of survival.

[Brite]

Was the son healthy?

[TCA]

Since in this case it was later in the pregnancy, the fetus didn't suffer a severe lack of oxygen or anything, she hadn't stated she never wanted to be on life support, and the family DID want the baby born, I'm going to say it was okay thaaat time. But this is the kind of thing where a slippery slope argument may not necessarily be a fallacy...

[Kestra15]

anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

I so wish I could have taken you around on my visits today to all the child protection meetings and cases of abuse/neglect the team I'm with have to deal with on a daily basis

[Cecona]

~Removed~

 

I need to address what Linda said about how if we are okay with terminating a "child" in the womb then we aren't far from killing living children. The whole thing with that idea is that it's not at all reasonable. a child that is living outside of it's mother's body has personhood, it's aware that it is alive and interacts with other living things like people and animals. It's able to form thoughts and create memories and learn. At the point when the majority of abortions are preformed it barely even resembles a human, and is still so small you may not even be able to see it or could easily over look it. It has as much brain activity as a tapeworm if any at all. It is not aware of anything, it is not sentient. It cannot react or respond to anything. Terminating a fetus is NOT the same as killing a child because a child is an individual with rights. A fetus is, by definition, a parasite until it has developed enough to where it actually has brain activity and can react to outside influences and survive outside of it's host (mother).

Edited February 12, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Htt71]

Please tell me what you think the difference between pro lifers and forced birthers is? I understand the meanings of both, and don't exactly see why you react to this any differently than how you react to say, my posts?

 

((I don't think anyone appreciates the sarcastic and just plain rude comments said about her, so please just tone it down a bit? This is the whole reason I went on a rant earlier that ended up with me getting reported for calling BlightWyvern out for doing such. Act mature, and handle these situations like an adult. C'mon people.))

[Syaoransbear]

I don't care if it's a fetus, a baby, or even a child. I don't care if it's alive. I don't care if it has a consciousness. I don't care of it has memories. I don't care if it feels pain.

 

If born people are unable to forcefully use another person's body without that person's consent to preserve their own lives, unborn people should not be granted that right. And consenting to sex is only consenting to sex, not pregnancy.

 

So until the government starts hauling people away to force them to donate organs/blood/marrow/whatever, anti-abortion laws give too many rights to the unborn.

[BlitzDrake]

Please tell me what you think the difference between pro lifers and forced birthers is? I understand the meanings of both, and don't exactly see why you react to this any differently than how you react to say, my posts?

 

((I don't think anyone appreciates the sarcastic and just plain rude comments said about her, so please just tone it down a bit? This is the whole reason I went on a rant earlier that ended up with me getting reported for calling BlightWyvern out for doing such. Act mature, and handle these situations like an adult. C'mon people.))

 

 

Ahem, well, pro-life to ME is caring about not just a fetus' life but also the mothers life as well. OR in a broader sense, caring for EVERYthing with a life. aka oppose death penalty, support the homeless, help end poverty.

 

Proforced birth-

anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

 

The latter is OVERLY irrational, cruel, harsh, and very VERY horrible....to say the least

 

Now a question for YOU. Do you see the difference between proCHOICE and proABORTION?

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[Htt71]

"I don't care if it's a fetus, a baby, or even a child. I don't care if it's alive. I don't care if it has a consciousness. I don't care of it has memories. I don't care if it feels pain."

 

Until people rationalize that a baby isn't able to survive without the use of a mother's organs, I don't care about you opinion. I don't care how you rationalize that it's right to kill a living human being, whether it thinks or not, whether it feels or not. I salute those who choose life over death. You can do what you please, but know, just know that you are supporting the death of those who were created by people who knew what they were doing, and it is wrong to kill something that didn't ask to exist, but instead exists because it was willingly created.

 

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

 

[Obscure_Trash]

"I don't care if it's a fetus, a baby, or even a child. I don't care if it's alive. I don't care if it has a consciousness. I don't care of it has memories. I don't care if it feels pain."

 

Until people rationalize that a baby isn't able to survive without the use of a mother's organs, I don't care about you opinion. I don't care how you rationalize that it's right to kill a living human being, whether it thinks or not, whether it feels or not. I salute those who choose life over death. You can do what you please, but know, just know that you are supporting the death of those who were created by people who knew what they were doing, and it is wrong to kill something that didn't ask to exist, but instead exists because it was willingly created.

 

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

Why did you cherry pick the post you quoted? The whole post was relevant to the point.

[prpldrgnfr]

Was the son healthy?

The father claims he is, but faces a "bumpy ride", and will probably spend months in the hospital, as a 28 week preemie needs a lot of support.

 

 

The father has a blog, but I haven't been able to bring myself to read it, the whole idea skeeves me something fierce, but as it was his choice and she'd left no prior instruction....

[BlitzDrake]

"I don't care if it's a fetus, a baby, or even a child. I don't care if it's alive. I don't care if it has a consciousness. I don't care of it has memories. I don't care if it feels pain."

 

Until people rationalize that a baby isn't able to survive without the use of a mother's organs, I don't care about you opinion. I don't care how you rationalize that it's right to kill a living human being, whether it thinks or not, whether it feels or not. I salute those who choose life over death. You can do what you please, but know, just know that you are supporting the death of those who were created by people who knew what they were doing, and it is wrong to kill something that didn't ask to exist, but instead exists because it was willingly created.

 

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

You forgot the other bit Syaoran wrote:

 

If born people are unable to forcefully use another person's body without that person's consent to preserve their own lives, unborn people should not be granted that right. And consenting to sex is only consenting to sex, not pregnancy.

 

So until the government starts hauling people away to force them to donate organs/blood/marrow/whatever, anti-abortion laws give too many rights to the unborn.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[pudding]

"I don't care if it's a fetus, a baby, or even a child. I don't care if it's alive. I don't care if it has a consciousness. I don't care of it has memories. I don't care if it feels pain."

 

Until people rationalize that a baby isn't able to survive without the use of a mother's organs, I don't care about you opinion. I don't care how you rationalize that it's right to kill a living human being, whether it thinks or not, whether it feels or not. I salute those who choose life over death. You can do what you please, but know, just know that you are supporting the death of those who were created by people who knew what they were doing, and it is wrong to kill something that didn't ask to exist, but instead exists because it was willingly created.

 

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

If we took a fetus out of a mother, it would die very quickly. It isn't developed enough to survive on its own. And by own its own, I mean without depending on another person's body. Babies can use formula so they do not need breast milk (personal choice but I would always breastfeed my children. I don't like formula milk). Thus, babies do not rely on their mother's organs. So the fetus needs another person to survive (A host, if you will). And using another person's body against their will is illegal.

 

I have a car. Let's say I hit you with my car. You didn't ask to be hit by a car. I may have consented to driving but I never intended to hit someone. Accidents happen. Let's also say you were seriously injured and losing blood quickly and I was able to make a blood donation to you. I am, by no means, obligated to donate my blood to you. Even if it means saving your life. Even if it means you would die without it. Because it is my blood and my body and no matter what I've done, you aren't in control of my body. This is a totalitarianism and I am the dictator of my body. So how is that situation any different from an abortion?

[Lythiaren]

You forgot the other bit Kage wrote:

 

If born people are unable to forcefully use another person's body without that person's consent to preserve their own lives, unborn people should not be granted that right. And consenting to sex is only consenting to sex, not pregnancy.

 

So until the government starts hauling people away to force them to donate organs/blood/marrow/whatever, anti-abortion laws give too many rights to the unborn.

Psst, that was Syaoran. Kage posted the anecdote from the abused girlfriend.

[Htt71]

You don't have mine months to decide whether or not to donate blood, and I'm not inside of you. Fetuses don't form dying, they form living and based on the actions of the mother or the environment.

 

((Also, did you know that while you think you own your body you only own less than 10% of the cells that make you? The rest are bacteria. If the bacteria decided to not to want you as a host, you would die. (This actually had happened.) kind of a backwards abortion.))

[BlitzDrake]

You don't have mine months to decide whether or not to donate blood, and I'm not inside of you. Fetuses don't form dying, they form living and based on the actions of the mother or the environment.

 

((Also, did you know that while you think you own your body you only own less than 10% of the cells that make you? The rest are bacteria. If the bacteria decided to not to want you as a host, you would die. (This actually had happened.) kind of a backwards abortion.))

By High Lord November

 

A) Up to a certain point far along in pregnancy, it is literally just a group of insentient, growing cells. That's it. It isn't a person. It doesn't think. It doesn't register pain. It isn't self-aware. It's the equivalent to my arm. It is just a group of cells.

 

B ) If you want to call it a person, no person has a right to use my body and my organs against my will. It is a literal parasite. It is leeching off of my bodily resources, it is taking residence in my body against my will. If removing it kills the cells, then it kills the cells.

 

If it is a separate being (i.e. actually born), then there's no reason for me to "kill" it. It can survive on its own (i.e. not directly leeching off of my organs and nutrients), and is much more aware.

 

Bacteria aren't registered as a person. The...erm...person is registered as that. As in, the bacteria provide us with the thought processes and functions, we control them. Soh, technically we are dictators or overlords of our body.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[pudding]

You don't have mine months to decide whether or not to donate blood, and I'm not inside of you. Fetuses don't form dying, they form living and based on the actions of the mother or the environment.

 

((Also, did you know that while you think you own your body you only own less than 10% of the cells that make you? The rest are bacteria. If the bacteria decided to not to want you as a host, you would die. (This actually had happened.) kind of a backwards abortion.))

I don't have nine months to abort either. And even if a fetus is outside of the body, the fact it is using me is no different. Fetuses are not alive by human standards (They lack EEG until about the 13th week). That means that they cannot be murdered, only disposed of. Just like cancer. Just like a tapeworm. And, unsurprisingly, they share many traits with both of these things.

 

And even then, those bacteria are a part of me. Anything inside my body, I have government over. Including unwanted things like fetuses and tapeworms.

 

[Infinis]

Bacteria aren't registered as a person. The...erm...person is registered as that. As in, the bacteria provide us with the thought processes and functions, we control them. Soh, technically we are dictators or overlords of our body.

Bacteria provide us no cognitive functions at all. That's what our brains are for.

 

The bacteria in the human body may be largely beneficial (or at least generally not making us sick all the time - many people naturally have staph on their skin, for example), but they are entirely separate entities. And they can turn on you. We control our bodies, yes, but we can't control the billions of bacteria living within us. All we can do is keep it in check, keep it from killing us; however bacterial infections can and do kill people every day.

 

Htt71:

A pro forced birther is simply another (and probably more apt) term for an anti-choicer, which is what that side of the debate really is. These people seek to take away all rights to have a choice in reproductive health - they completely disregard the mother and any of her thoughts on the matter in favor of the unborn. Incidentally, many of these people also appear to be against any kind of government aid to support them once they're born - in effect, once it's born it's no longer their problem.

 

An actual pro-lifer would seek to provide continued care and support for fetuses carried to term, as well as for the mother (i.e., in favor of things like welfare). They wouldn't disregard the mother.

 

~~~

 

There is a huge difference between a fetus and a baby/child. A fetus is not self aware, not sentient. A baby/child has exited the womb and has begun to be self aware and is sentient.

 

linda3.0:

if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

 

What if you found yourself in the situation for which you are condemning other women?

Why is it okay to take away not just the rights of others, but your own rights in regards to choosing what is best for your reproduction and life at any time?

Why would it be okay to force sterilization on women who do not follow your mindset? That's more or less bad eugenics.

Why is it okay to force women to give birth, no matter the how she became pregnant?

 

Consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. Sex and pregnancy are two very different things.

 

As for the fetus becoming someone's potential pride and joy, don't just look at this one sided. It's a two way street. That fetus, if born, could just as easily become the next genocidal dictator.

 

You should read up on the adoption and foster system. There are not a lot of loving families out there waiting to adopt. Out of hundreds of thousands of children in the adoption system, only about 3% get adopted out every year...and there's no guarantee they're going to truly good homes, either. A child's chances of getting adopted out lessen as they grow older, too.

 

It is not, and never will be, an act of selfishness to decide what's best for yourself. This is what we spend 18 years preparing for: the ability to make the best decisions for ourselves. For some women, abortion is the best option.

[KageSora]

Please tell me what you think the difference between pro lifers and forced birthers is? I understand the meanings of both, and don't exactly see why you react to this any differently than how you react to say, my posts?

Because to me, you're pro-forced-birth. You've made statements that clearly indicate a desire to see abortion banned. You have made statements that clearly indicate you are in favor of overriding the mother's quality of life in order to bring an unwanted child into the world.

 

To be truly pro-LIFE you have to care not just about the existence of life--both of the unborn and the mother--but the QUALITY of life. Anybody who argues that it's better to bring a life into the world only for it to suffer horribly and eventually decide to end itself is NOT caring about the quality of the life they claim to be striving to protect.

 

And thus not truly pro-LIFE.

 

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

...I don't consider "providing some support to the host to ensure it's own survival because if the host suffers it is likely to suffer" to be the same thing as a mother willingly allowing her body to be used to incubate the fetus.

[7Deadly$ins]

The stem cell thing is like tossing five bucks to someone, then living in their house and eating all their food. When they complain, bring up those five bucks.

[Syaoransbear]

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers )

 

That would be more useful if that happened after the baby ripped a giant hole in its mother when it was born.

 

You don't have mine months to decide whether or not to donate blood, and I'm not inside of you. Fetuses don't form dying, they form living and based on the actions of the mother or the environment.

 

((Also, did you know that while you think you own your body you only own less than 10% of the cells that make you? The rest are bacteria. If the bacteria decided to not to want you as a host, you would die. (This actually had happened.) kind of a backwards abortion.))

I don't understand how having nine months to decide to donate blood or whether or not you are inside of me is relevant. The former doesn't really make sense to me actually.

 

If born humans had the same rights to your body as unborn humans in places that don't allow abortion, there it no deciding or donating. There is force and taking. Your body would not belong to you, it would be government property. Any organs, blood, plasma, whatever that aren't completely necessary to your survival could be taken away against your will to help save the life of another.

 

But since it's only unborn humans who get to have these rights that no one else has, only pregnant women's bodies belong to the government. Do you think it should be all people? If not, why should unborn people have more rights than born people?

 

I'm an all or nothing person kind of person. Either everyone's bodies become government property, or none do.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Shienvien]

(Fun fact: a fetus/baby will actually give stem cells to an injured mother to aid the healing process. Mothers aren't the only providers.)

 

[Citation needed, especially given how common mother-child blood-type/tissue incompatibility is.]