Abortion

[sparkle10184]

I'll only feel sick if it's for a bad reason, I mean, you shouldn't go around having sex without pills or whatnot. Obviously you'll get pregnant.

Most women won't have repeated unprotected sex after getting pregnant and having an abortion once. Abortions are very costly. Unless you're rich you can't have an abortion every few months. That would be ridiculously expensive. Not to mention how hard it actually is in many places to get access to a safe abortion doctor.

[HeatherMarie]

To be honest, I think the woman has a choice, it's her body, her baby. I'll only feel sick if it's for a bad reason, I mean, you shouldn't go around having sex without pills or whatnot. Obviously you'll get pregnant.

However, if the baby has some defects that will probably put it in pain for the rest of it's life, or will be born brain dead, I think an abortion is neccessary, that way the poor child doesn't have to be put through that and the mother doesn't have a chance of dying.

 

I'm not an expert, though, so I can't give a huge twenty paragraph long opinion.

But who says what that "bad reason" is? The woman. You may not *like* the thought of abortion, but when a woman gets one, believe me they HAVE a reason, and are probably NOT going to think of it as a "bad reason". And it's their perspective that counts.

 

Defects may be a "good" reason, but so is poverty, mental or physical illness on the woman's part, wanting to finish an education, or simply being logical enough to realize that you can't care for another human being at this stage in your life. ANY and ALL "reasons" are good enough when it comes to their own body.

[KageSora]

I mean, you shouldn't go around having sex without pills or whatnot. Obviously you'll get pregnant.

You'd think it'd be obvious, but you'd be sadly surprised by how many people don't realize it, or who legit think things like sex in certain positions negates the chance of pregnancy.

 

Or who don't know what birth control is or how to use it.

 

Depending on where you are sex ed can range from pretty darn good to "if you have sex before you get married you die and go to hell".

[StormBirdRising]

Was this a best case scenario of what you want to see or a description of how the pill is now and how people should use it?

 

This was actually in response to another poster who saw a commercial for the morning-after pill and thought it was a good idea. It is a good idea.

 

If a woman has unprotected sex she can take the morning after pill the next morning. It costs approximately $30US at most pharmacies. As of 2013, under pressure by women's rights groups, this pill (if the pharmacy carries contraception) must be made available on the shelf, not behind the counter, to any man or woman without any age restrictions even though it is to be used only for age 17 and older. Insurance can be used to purchase it but then the purchaser must fill out insurance forms. (There are some jurisdictions at this time who are trying to get it back behind the counter and off the shelves, and to require ID to purchase it.)

 

This pill was originally used by law enforcement, given to rape victims. It took ten years to get it on the shelves. Anti-abortionists fought it tooth and nail, and surprisingly, pro-abortionists fought it, using the argument that a woman should still have the option of having an abortion. Well, she still does.

 

Offering contraception and the morning after pill have nothing to do with restricting a woman's access to abortion.

 

To me it is the best case scenario for a woman who had unprotected sex and is capable of conceiving, and does not want to be pregnant.

 

 

[StormBirdRising]

I'm not an expert, though, so I can't give a huge twenty paragraph long opinion.

You said everything very succinctly and very eloquently. You don't have to be an expert or have MD after your name. The only reason to give a 20 paragraph long opinion is if you're writing an amicus curae brief or arguing a case before the Supreme Court.

[DragonGirl10188]

But who says what that "bad reason" is? The woman. You may not *like* the thought of abortion, but when a woman gets one, believe me they HAVE a reason, and are probably NOT going to think of it as a "bad reason". And it's their perspective that counts.

 

Defects may be a "good" reason, but so is poverty, mental or physical illness on the woman's part, wanting to finish an education, or simply being logical enough to realize that you can't care for another human being at this stage in your life. ANY and ALL "reasons" are good enough when it comes to their own body.

Jesus, calm down a bit.

I agree with your last paragraph, but a 'bad' reason from my perspective and opinion would be something that can be easily prevented. Some people just get abortions because the wanted a girl but know they're going to get a boy, or vice versa. I find it quite sick that you want to kill basically a part of your dna just because it isn't perfect.

 

I do like the thought of abortion, it's prevented many painful lives and whatnot of babies and mothers alike. I don't like it for sick reasons, though.

[edwardelricfreak]

This was actually in response to another poster who saw a commercial for the morning-after pill and thought it was a good idea. It is a good idea.

 

If a woman has unprotected sex she can take the morning after pill the next morning. It costs approximately $30US at most pharmacies. As of 2013, under pressure by women's rights groups, this pill (if the pharmacy carries contraception) must be made available on the shelf, not behind the counter, to any man or woman without any age restrictions even though it is to be used only for age 17 and older. Insurance can be used to purchase it but then the purchaser must fill out insurance forms. (There are some jurisdictions at this time who are trying to get it back behind the counter and off the shelves, and to require ID to purchase it.)

 

This pill was originally used by law enforcement, given to rape victims. It took ten years to get it on the shelves. Anti-abortionists fought it tooth and nail, and surprisingly, pro-abortionists fought it, using the argument that a woman should still have the option of having an abortion. Well, she still does.

 

Offering contraception and the morning after pill have nothing to do with restricting a woman's access to  abortion.

 

To me it is the best case scenario for a woman who had unprotected sex and is capable of conceiving, and does not want to be pregnant.

So, funny enough, not every person can take the morning after pill or abortion pill. Not only are their certain weights that make the pills pretty much void, but some people cannot take them for medication reasons. In fact, I'm pretty sure some people in this thread have even said those pills, including regular BC pills, aren't options for them because of medical reasons.

 

So yes, while I agree that the pills are a fairly good alternative, in most cases, to getting an abortion, not everyone can take them.

 

And then of course, the pills CAN fail. Some people also don't know that sex can result in a pregnancy. Some people DO know, but they weren't able to take the pill in time because they didn't realize whatever form of BC they were using just happened to fail or they used it wrong in the first place.

 

And, as said before, they are also expensive. From what I've seen, without any health care coverage, they are at least $40-50 on the cheap end. Yes, I've had to get Plan B pills before. I'm so glad that I am within the weight restrictions, too, though it's maybe only somewhere between 10-30 pounds under the limit IIRC.

 

Condoms, on the other hand, are extremely cheap and even free in some cases. But again, they can still fail and not everyone knows to use them or knows how to properly use them.

 

And, I will say, that a good chunk of abortions happen because of contraceptives failing. That can include stuff like the Plan B pill, as well as BC pills and condoms and patches and shots and implants.

I agree with your last paragraph, but a 'bad' reason from my perspective and opinion would be something that can be easily prevented. Some people just get abortions because the wanted a girl but know they're going to get a boy, or vice versa. I find it quite sick that you want to kill basically a part of your dna just because it isn't perfect.

 

I do like the thought of abortion, it's prevented many painful lives and whatnot of babies and mothers alike. I don't like it for sick reasons, though.

Doesn't matter if it's "sick" or "bad" in your eyes or not. What Marie was saying was that it doesn't matter what your opinion is or what mine is or what anyone's is. If someone wants to get an abortion, they have their reasons and should be left with the freedom to get one, regardless.

[Fuzzbucket]

Doesn't matter if it's "sick" or "bad" in your eyes or not. What Marie was saying was that it doesn't matter what your opinion is or what mine is or what anyone's is. If someone wants to get an abortion, they have their reasons and should be left with the freedom to get one, regardless.

This. Your "bad reason" is only bad for YOU. It may be a very good reason for me.

 

The biggest problem with abortion as an issue is one person trying to force their ethics on to another person. We all have the absolute right to our own views and the right to control our own bodies. I promise not to tell you why you should have an abortion, just as long as you don't dare try and tell me why I shouldn't.

[Brite]

I agree, not everyone can take it and it sucks. I know women who were so desperate for birth control (but couldn't take it) that they would * with lemon juice because I guess the high acids killed the sperm. I'm not an expert on that, I think it may work slightly, but unless you have a clean perfect body, you're in for a hell of an experience with that..

[pony459]

Also I just think abortion should always be an option that someone can go to the doctor and get safely done. Because if it was illegal im sure people would go to shady illegal places to get it done. You can't control everyone. I'd rather abortions be done legally, and safely.

[HeatherMarie]

Also I just think abortion should always be an option that someone can go to the doctor and get safely done. Because if it was illegal im sure people would go to shady illegal places to get it done. You can't control everyone. I'd rather abortions be done legally, and safely.

Wonderful point, there!

 

Because it's true. Making abortions illegal doesn't mean it won't happen. It just means that the abortions women get will be a lot less sterile, a lot less safe, probably/possibly done by someone who didn't even go to med school. People focus on the "abortion is murder" part without realizing that making abortions illegal would basically be murdering those women who *must* get them anyway they can.

[Brite]

Wonderful point, there!

 

Because it's true. Making abortions illegal doesn't mean it won't happen. It just means that the abortions women get will be a lot less sterile, a lot less safe, probably/possibly done by someone who didn't even go to med school. People focus on the "abortion is murder" part without realizing that making abortions illegal would basically be murdering those women who *must* get them anyway they can.

Somethings dark tells me that pro births WANT women to go to back alleys because they like the fact that it's unsafe and she may die.. seeing it as her punishment

[JavaTigress]

Somethings dark tells me that pro births WANT women to go to back alleys because they like the fact that it's unsafe and she may die.. seeing it as her punishment

I don't know that that is necessarily true, to be honest.

 

I mean, some may feel that way, but probably not anywhere near all. Some probably legitimately think that making it illegal will stop it... or at least discourage it. Some people may simply not realize that some women will be so desperate as to go to someone who may not even have the proper credentials if they think it will help them out of their problem.

 

It may well be that some of these people honestly have good intentions and do NOT really want to see women die. Ideas can sound good but have consequences supporters of said idea never really planned for.

 

Sort of like prohibition.

 

That was done with ostensibly good intentions but it had a whole lot of unforseen consequences.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Silverswift

[Brite]

I don't know that that is necessarily true, to be honest.

 

I mean, some may feel that way, but probably not anywhere near all. Some probably legitimately think that making it illegal will stop it... or at least discourage it. Some people may simply not realize that some women will be so desperate as to go to someone who may not even have the proper credentials if they think it will help them out of their problem.

 

Sort of like prohibition.

 

That was done with ostensibly good intentions but it had a whole lot of unforseen consequences.

Are you kidding me? 98% of pro-births (hint, birth) I've debated with said that women should be executed if they get an abortion or attempt to and are trying to pass laws that would make abortion punishable by death.

[JavaTigress]

Are you kidding me? 98% of pro-births (hint, birth) I've debated with said that women should be executed if they get an abortion or attempt to and are trying to pass laws that would make abortion punishable by death.

No. I am not.

 

Most of the people I know... while they would NOT condone abortion, necessarily... would probably NOT want to put a woman to death for having one, either. Admittedly some of this is conjecture on my part. Certainly for myself, personally that is how I see it. Do I approve of abortion? No, not really. Seems to me that avoiding the unwanted pregnancy in the first place... while granted not always fail-proof... is the better option. IMO it should PROBABLY be used only as a last resort. Do I necessarily feel that it should be banned... well, it would be nice if abortions were never viewed as necessary. Unfortunately, some women WILL want them... in some cases may actually NEED them ( thinking of cases where the mother's life is threatened by going through with the pregnancy here)... and WILL try to get them regardless of whether they are legal or not. Do I feel that those women should be put to death?

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

 

They are at least as deserving of compassion as the child in question and may be desperate, scared, and feel that they have no other choice... they may have been the victim of a rape or who knows what. I can't presume to speak for others that oppose abortion, but I do NOT feel that way. At all. There are extremists out there, for sure, but I would like to believe that extremists do NOT speak for all.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Silverswift

[Brite]

No. I am not.

 

Most of the people I know... while they would NOT condone abortion, necessarily... would probably NOT want to put a woman to death for having one, either. Admittedly some of this is conjecture on my part. Certainly for myself, personally that is how I see it. Do I approve of abortion? No, not really. Seems to me that avoiding the unwanted pregnancy in the first place... while granted not always fail-proof... is the better option. IMO it should PROBABLY be used only as a last resort. Do I necessarily feel that it should be banned... well, it would be nice if abortions were never viewed as necessary. Unfortunately, some women WILL want them... in some cases may actually NEED them ( thinking of cases where the mother's life is threatened by going through with the pregnancy here)... and WILL try to get them regardless of whether they are legal or not. Do I feel that those women should be put to death?

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

 

They are at least as deserving of compassion as the child in question and may be desperate, scared, and feel that they have no other choice... they may have been the victim of a rape or who knows what. I can't presume to speak for others that oppose abortion, but I do NOT feel that way. At all. There are extremists out there, for sure, but I would like to believe that extremists do NOT speak for all.

Okay, so you're clearly thinking of pro-life. I'm talking about people who do.not.care for the woman's "excuse" for abortion, they will harass and hammer threats and guilt on her to keep her from going to a clinic using every guilt trip in the book and once the child is born, their passion for the well-being of that child is out the window and they turn a blind eye. There's a LOT more people like that than you think, and some of them happen to be in office with power. Do their beliefs make sense? No, are they AWARE that women will seek back alley abortions? Most likely, which is why I said I think they like the idea of women risking their lives to do it because they see it as a punishment.

[JavaTigress]

Okay, so you're clearly thinking of pro-life. I'm talking about people who do.not.care for the woman's "excuse" for abortion, they will harass and hammer threats and guilt on her to keep her from going to a clinic using every guilt trip in the book and once the child is born, their passion for the well-being of that child is out the window and they turn a blind eye. There's a LOT more people like that than you think, and some of them happen to be in office with power. Do their beliefs make sense? No, are they AWARE that women will seek back alley abortions? Most likely, which is why I said I think they like the idea of women risking their lives to do it because they see it as a punishment.

Like I said. There are extremists in every bunch... and the extremists RARELY do a cause any good.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

This is why a distinction needs to be made between "pro-life" and "anti-choice" in conversations like these.

[Infinis]

Are you kidding me? 98% of pro-births (hint, birth) I've debated with said that women should be executed if they get an abortion or attempt to and are trying to pass laws that would make abortion punishable by death.

Antichoicers are known to be fairly radical and in some cases absolutely ridiculous in the punishment department. x.x

 

I mean, some may feel that way, but probably not anywhere near all. Some probably legitimately think that making it illegal will stop it... or at least discourage it. Some people may simply not realize that some women will be so desperate as to go to someone who may not even have the proper credentials if they think it will help them out of their problem.

 

It may well be that some of these people honestly have good intentions and do NOT really want to see women die. Ideas can sound good but have consequences supporters of said idea never really planned for.

 

Sort of like prohibition.

 

That was done with ostensibly good intentions but it had a whole lot of unforseen consequences.

 

Making it illegal will discourage it to some degree, but anyone desperate enough for an abortion knows that there are more options to induce one than a doctor, even if it means hurting themselves. And to be frank, anyone who thinks that making abortion illegal will stop it forever is woefully ill educated in the ways of the world. It didn't work with prohibition, and it won't work with abortion.

 

Prohibition had unforseen consequences, but by looking at the past we can see how illegalizing abortion will affect people seeking them (wasn't abortion largely illegal before Roe v Wade?). The problem is the people who are willfully ignorant and those who are rooted in, simply put, beliefs that are archaic in this day and age. And unfortunately those are the ones who also tend to be the most vocal.

 

People focus on the "abortion is murder" part without realizing that making abortions illegal would basically be murdering those women who *must* get them anyway they can.

 

While backalley abortions are neither desirable nor all that safe and should be discouraged, not all of them go badly or end in the death of the mother.

 

The problem is that outside of a sterile medical setting the chance of serious infection skyrockets and the people who have received one are unlikely to go to a legitimate doctor to deal with the problem because that means admitting they had one.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Infinis

[JavaTigress]

This is why a distinction needs to be made between "pro-life" and "anti-choice" in conversations like these.

I would say that this is an excellent point. Well said.

 

A distinction between the two would most certainly be helpful.

 

And as Infinis has said, BANNING it entirely probably wouldn't work. That was my point by bringing up Prohibition. It sounded good but it didn't work out at all. i feel that probably banning abortions entirely would be much the same.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Silverswift

[Brite]

Like I said. There are extremists in every bunch... and the extremists RARELY do a cause any good.

From what I've experienced, there's more extremists than real pro-lifers nowadays. I wouldn't label some "extremist", just not educated enough to know about biology and what can go on in the womb, and I don't think many care to because they fill that spot in with their morals so they don't see the need to. It's the main reason why I feel like pulling my own teeth when I see bills/laws trying to be passed based on personal morals and religion because they're being forced onto everyone else.

[Infinis]

Someone please correct me if these are wrong:

 

Antichoice is a blanket term for all people who would take away a woman's right to choice in any capacity.

 

Pro-life is the common blanket term IRL for antichoicers. Im this thread we define pro-life as antichoicers who would support the women and give them the help they need to both carry to term the pregnancy and to properly care for it once born. These are the people who care about whether the resulting baby has access to a decent life.

 

Pro-birth are the extremists, more or less. These are people who would have women forced to give birth no matter what the mother's life is like, disregarding medical reasons, personal reasons, and life circumstances, among others.

[HeatherMarie]

This is why a distinction needs to be made between "pro-life" and "anti-choice" in conversations like these.

I've always figured that distinction was pretty clear when we specify "pro-*birth*" instead of just saying pro-life.

[JavaTigress]

From what I've experienced, there's more extremists than real pro-lifers nowadays. I wouldn't label some "extremist", just not educated enough to know about biology and what can go on in the womb, and I don't think many care to because they fill that spot in with their morals so they don't see the need to. It's the main reason why I feel like pulling my own teeth when I see bills/laws trying to be passed based on personal morals and religion because they're being forced onto everyone else.

Seriously, if a person is going to form an opinion on the topic at ALL , they ought to at least have an understanding of the subject from a biological point of view. For example, as I understand it, plenty of fertilized eggs never implant and therfore 'die' without ever developing into a baby. This is natural and simply how a woman's body works. Things like this are a part of the discussion and understanding the Biology of it is important.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Silverswift

[Infinis]

From what I've experienced, there's more extremists than real pro-lifers nowadays. I wouldn't label some "extremist", just not educated enough to know about biology and what can go on in the womb, and I don't think many care to because they fill that spot in with their morals so they don't see the need to. It's the main reason why I feel like pulling my own teeth when I see bills/laws trying to be passed based on personal morals and religion because they're being forced onto everyone else.

There's a difference between lack of education and willful ignorance.

 

I see a lot more of the latter. Even when presented with evidence that proves them wrong, many reject it and/or try to prove that evidence wrong, even if it means refuting it with lies.

 

A case in point is the purported link between abortions and breast cancer, something that has been thrown around for years in an attempt to discourage abortion and get laws passed to illegalize it. This is an outright lie, as studies have proven that no such link exists. However, people are still spreading it around like it's truth.

 

Seriously, if a person is going to form an opinion on the topic at ALL , they ought to at least have an understanding of the subject from a biological point of view. For example, as I understand it, plenty of fertilized eggs never implant and therfore 'die' without ever developing into a baby.

 

I'd like to point out that a lot of the people coming from the antichoice point of view are religious and frequently rely on religious dogma to back their argument. Religion is invariably tied with the abortion debate, because there is no real reason outside of religion to justify the illegalization of abortion*. I don't think they see the need to understand reproduction to make a proper opinion; they simply rely on what they're been taught.

 

And you are correct, most eggs never implant, and the menstrual cycle actually flushes out an egg every time. Some fertilized eggs are aborted by the uterus before you even know they're fertilized at all.

 

*If someone can find me a nonreligious argument against abortion I'd be glad to hear it.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Infinis