Posted April 14, 2014 Was flipping through and reading some other stories about abuse and tampering birth control.. I feel sorry for the children from the outcomes of those types of relationships. I know several old friends who were born from bad marriages. One of my guy friend's was a result of his father forcing his wife throw away her pills. She was going to abort but he being manipulative convinced her to keep her pregnancy and she was at first happy because she thought one of the worst things in a relationship where thinking a child will fix a marriage or change your partner for the better. When he was 7 he remembered his mother becoming mental and blaming him, saying he was the reason why she no longer had a chance to leave her husband and start a new life. It's scary to think how some women can be brainwashed in such ways. I cut a friend off from my life because I lost faith in her after finding out that she not only forgave her rapist(which isn't exactly wrong, I know), but she became best friends with him. Very sad. It is a shame that the child was blamed. I mean... that seems wrong to me. It is hardly a little boy's fault that his father is a manipulative jerk. Yet HE ends up being the one to pay the price, along with his mom. Like I said, very sad. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 20, 2014 Agreed, there are sad, sad people alive today. But, at the same time, there are many GOOD people as well. I personaly greatly dislike abortion, but I also feel that people are entitled to their own opinions. I think that if you do not want a child, you should not have "done the act". If you have a child that you did/do not want, put it up for adoption. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 20, 2014 I think that if you do not want a child, you should not have "done the act". If you have a child that you did/do not want, put it up for adoption. Are you saying "the act", oh to hell with it, "sex", is a bad thing? It's a very healthy part of relationships physically and mentally, pregnancy is just a possible outcome, so why can't we have the rights to prevent it or rid ourselves of it? *Like a broken record* And adoption systems are TERRIBLE Share this post Link to post
Posted June 20, 2014 I think that if you do not want a child, you should not have "done the act". If you have a child that you did/do not want, put it up for adoption. oh yes, because sex is a terrible shameful thing that should never, ever be used for anything other than making babies. /sarcasm The adoption system is so ****ing messed up. Don't even get me started... Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 I have not read the thread in detail though can only imagine views are highly varied. I do not oppose abortion, mostly due to experiencing within my own family first hand. My sister got pregnant at 17 - it was a mistake and well for the situation and everything going on behind (not going into specifics) it was the correct thing to do for her. On my personal level, I do not want children. Although I have found my soul mate, neither of us feel inclined at this time to have them and both around our 30s. Never say never we could still change our minds and if it did happen by accident right now I would have a long hard think before going the abortion route though my thoughts right now are I would have an abortion if I did. However, we are very careful using appropriate contraceptions to lessen this risk I will highlight though no matter how careful you are - nothing is a 100% risk free short of removing say your uterus. Even for a man to have the snip is not guaranteed as my friend had it after 2nd child, the snip did not take and they now have a 3rd. Another scenario is if you are pregnant and found out something is heavily wrong with the fetus, I think certain scenarios are applicable here which is why in England there is a test for certain disabilities such as Down's syndrome. I am not saying that should = having a abortion but not everyone can or would cope and that is the crux of it (whether mentally, emotionally or financially). I did not mean to type such a long comment! But I have given this much thought on a personal level how I feel about it, I do believe you just won't know truly until you are in the situation. Oh one last thing...do not agree at all with if you do not want the child you should not have done the act. There is more to sex then just reproduction, it is a connection especially if with a soul mate. Just take responsibility. Plus adoption whilst gives the child an opportunity to live rather than get taken away comes with its own hardships (though again there are happy endings too). A mother growing that fetus for 9 months only to give the child away. A child growing up (possibly moving from adoption home to adoption home) and maybe never knowing their blood parents or why they were given up. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 Why do people continue to trot out adoption as if it's a magical reset button that allows both mother and baby to go on living happy, separate lives? Adopting out a child doesn't address the issue of having to be pregnant against your will, give birth against your will, or experience the extreme physical and emotional changes and sacrifices that pregnancy demands. Adopting out a child doesn't mean that child won't choose to one day track down their birth mother and attempt to form a relationship - a situation which plenty of women don't want to be in, ever. Adopting out a child DOES mean giving it over to a horrifically broken and overburdened system that is fraught with abuse, negligence and potential hazards that are too big to be ignored. It also means that you're saddling that child with an entire lifetime's worth of (potentially unanswered) questions about their birth and parentage, and likely feelings of abandonment. The odds are not in that child's favor when it comes to getting out of such a system unscathed. I know this has probably been said a thousand times before in this thread, but geez. Let's get freaking realistic here. The issue is: some women do not, under any circumstances, want to be pregnant/give birth. Adoption does not cover that issue. Not even close. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 Abortion is such a serious and sensitive issue. It is very hard to discuss because there is no middle ground. One side believes it is murder and the other side believes it is a woman's right to choose and she must be free to exercise control over her own body. Having said that, I was raised to believe that life begins at birth. But now I have rejected my earlier religious beliefs and I believe that life begins at conception. Having said that, I believe that when an unborn baby dies, through natural causes, or an accident, or an abortion, the soul goes back to heaven, and waits to be born again. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 I'm one of those people that think that abortion is the woman's choice, and that she can do whatever she wants, but that won't stop me from thinking it's the wuss' way out, kinda like suicide, it's the way out for wusses, but that's just my opinion, don't let it get to you or anything Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 I'm one of those people that think that abortion is the woman's choice, and that she can do whatever she wants, but that won't stop me from thinking it's the wuss' way out, kinda like suicide, it's the way out for wusses, but that's just my opinion, don't let it get to you or anything How can you justify calling people desperate and miserable enough to take their own lives "wusses"? And how is it wussy to terminate an unwanted pregnancy? It's a decision - a frequently difficult decision - that people make based on what will be most beneficial for them and their life at the time. Is there some sort of courage merit badge I'm unaware of that you get if you carry an unwanted fetus to term? Seriously, what the hell am I reading. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 How can you justify calling people desperate and miserable enough to take their own lives "wusses"? And how is it wussy to terminate an unwanted pregnancy? It's a decision - a frequently difficult decision - that people make based on what will be most beneficial for them and their life at the time. Is there some sort of courage merit badge I'm unaware of that you get if you carry an unwanted fetus to term? Seriously, what the hell am I reading. Probably because life always gets better later on, and ending it then would just not be wanting to go through it and suffer for just a little bit more, read my signature m8 :^) Same goes for abortion as well, it's not like you can't get help with raising the child or whatever, and you can still go back to get an education if you really need it, if you really want to get rid of the baby though, then do it, and if anyone criticizes you for doing so, offer the people the baby for them to take care of or tell them to be in your shoes or w/e But idk what I'm saying really, I haven't gotten any sleep and its 5:14 AM Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 Probably because life always gets better later on, and ending it then would just not be wanting to go through it and suffer for just a little bit more, read my signature m8 :^) Same goes for abortion as well, it's not like you can't get help with raising the child or whatever, and you can still go back to get an education if you really need it, if you really want to get rid of the baby though, then do it, and if anyone criticizes you for doing so, offer the people the baby for them to take care of or tell them to be in your shoes or w/e But idk what I'm saying really, I haven't gotten any sleep and its 5:14 AM Life doesn't always get better, let me assure you of that, and not everyone has the capacity to hold out and suffer just a little bit more. I do not advocate suicide but I understand from personal experience why it happens, and I sincerely hope you never have to experience that level of hopelessness firsthand. Since this thread isn't about suicide I'll wind this down, but I leave you with this advice: choose your words more carefully when talking about something so personal and painful in the future, or at least try not to paint already emotionally damaged people as weak or cowardly. Anyway, getting an education and who's around to raise the child after it's born is completely irrelevant in an abortion discussion. Abortion is about terminating a pregnancy so that there is no child to raise in the first place. Going by your signature, abortion isn't about running from a difficult situation, it's a solution to said situation. I find your whole stance on this a little strange, tbh. ...this probably came off more hostile than I meant it to. :S Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 Probably because life always gets better later on Lol no it doesn't. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 I don't see anything wrong with abortion. If a woman wants to have an abortion, she should be allowed to. It's her body, not anyone elses. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Probably because life always gets better later on, and ending it then would just not be wanting to go through it and suffer for just a little bit more, read my signature m8 :^) Same goes for abortion as well, it's not like you can't get help with raising the child or whatever, and you can still go back to get an education if you really need it, if you really want to get rid of the baby though, then do it, and if anyone criticizes you for doing so, offer the people the baby for them to take care of or tell them to be in your shoes or w/e But idk what I'm saying really, I haven't gotten any sleep and its 5:14 AM Life always gets better? Yes, please tell me WHEN it will get better for me, someone who has attempted suicide over 20 times because over the past 16 years IT HASN'T GOTTEN BETTER. I'm sorry if I come off snippy, but I don't like people trotting out the whole "it'll get better!" phrase when sometimes it really, really *doesn't*. You are conveniently ignoring the "pregnancy" part of "unwanted pregnancy". Abortion terminates a PREGNANCY, while your "get help" and "go back for an education" are for *raising a child*. So, does it "get better" for a woman who MUST carry a fetus inside her for 9 months, sucking her nutrients, giving her all SORTS of possibly-fatal changes to her body.... Pregnancy is *possibly lethal*, you do know that right? So choosing to LIVE is.... a wussy way? Huh. Interesting point of view there. Edited June 21, 2014 by Marie19R Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) it's the wuss' way out, kinda like suicide, it's the way out for wusses Wow, ouch. There's lots of studies out that people in positions of privilege have a lower capability to handle the pain that those of us without so much privilege go through. When people who really don't have it hard try to go through 1/10th of what others go through, they end up quitting after a few hours. Others go through years even decades of being treated like crap and the people talking down to them can't even go through a whole day. Just a single day. You ever listened to any stories of what people who have committed suicide go through? What people who've attempted suicide go through? Ever suffered through depression or anxiety or abuse? You have NO right whatsoever to judge those people because they deal with 10x more crap than people judging them probably ever will. And people who judge them who have gone through horrible circumstances are often people who were given the help and resources necessary for it to get better. That is NOT a privilege everyone has. As for abortion - have you ever walked through a hoard of protestors outside someplace like PP? I suggest volunteering to be an escort who helps people walk in through all that crap. Because that alone will show you the courage people have to have to get an abortion. To sit there and listen to strangers calling you a murderer, getting in your face telling you that you're a horrible person, that you're doing the wrong thing. People who have no idea what your situation is. People who are getting up in your face because states think a No Buffer Zone is a ridiculous request. Abortion is just something some people NEED and they have to put up with strangers, friends, and family judging them, calling them horrible names. Family members may disown them for their choice. They can lose friends over it. All because they KNOW they cannot be a parent or because they KNOW they cannot go through pregnancy or whatever else. That takes courage if I've ever seen courage. People in abusive relationship who are denied abortion are far less likely to leave the abusive relationship. And you want to call them a wuss? For daring to go get an abortion so that maybe they can leave the relationship knowing that the chance of their abusive partner murdering them skyrockets when they attempt to leave them? People denied an abortion are far more likely to fall into poverty? There is really no help for poor parents much less poor children. Denying them an abortion will make their circumstances WORSE, you can't possibly tell them "it will get better" when there's no paid parental leave, when you have to get a college education to get a degree (even though college puts you in expanded amounts of debt and people STILL won't hire you just because you have a college degree even though they require it and you get stuck with some minimum wage job and no chances of moving up). Fact is "it gets better" is a LIE that only a very small subset of people ever see come true. It might get worse. It might just stay the same. Just because we like to tell people "it gets better" because we have no idea what else to tell them doesn't make it true. It might make you feel better for saying it, but it doesn't do a dang thing to change the circumstances of anybody who has it rough. It doesn't get better. People just get worn down and used to it. They forget they deserve better. They feel like they've gotten what they deserve and give up. And you wanna sit here and tell me that they're just being wusses because the only thing being done for them is people who just do not understand telling them "it gets better" but it never does? =\ Edited June 21, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 Probably because life always gets better later on, and ending it then would just not be wanting to go through it and suffer for just a little bit more, read my signature m8 :^) This coming from someone who hasn't experienced literal hell in their life? Please tell me all you've been through, I'm curious to know why you find it so easy to say "wusses way out" or "life gets better", because I assure you, it can be crushed. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I recently saw a FB post of a shirt a father had made regarding dating, in reference to his daughter. It read something along the lines of: Rules for Dating my Daughter 1) You don't make the rules 2) I don't make the rules 3) She makes the rules 4) Her body, her rules While this may seem off-topic, it actually reflects my beliefs on abortion in a paraphrase way: Rules about Abortion 1) You don't make the rules 2) He doesn't make the rules 3) SHE makes the rules 4) Her life, her rules I am almost 21, in a healthy relationship with someone I plan to be with forever. Our relationship is approaching the point of becoming more intimate, but neither of us want children. We can't afford to raise a child, and neither of us are the parenting type. If protection fails, and I become pregnant, I plan on having an abortion. I honestly hope that never happens, but short of surgery, I can't be sure it won't. And I, personally, have far more problems with surgery, for my own reasons. Medication is an issue for me, too, although we have talked and will probably talk further about medication-related contraception. Some might say that we should simply not be intimate...but that is a decision a couple should make themselves, without outside judgement. If, in the future, I do become pregnant and have an abortion, I know at least one family member who will probably not speak to me ever again. Do I care? No. Because in the end, it is my decision. I understand that people have different beliefs, but I will never tolerate having those beliefs pushed upon me. If someone cannot respect my decision, that is their issue, not mine. EDIT: Sock, I loved your post. Nailed things on the head. *hugs* Edited June 21, 2014 by MoonShark Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 it's the wuss' way out, kinda like suicide, it's the way out for wusses No. Stop. Have you ever had suicidal thoughts? Have you ever had a friend or family member who committed suicide? The reason you think of it that way is probably because you have never experienced anything suicide related. As the saying goes, "Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes." Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 Having said that, I believe that when an unborn baby dies, through natural causes, or an accident, or an abortion, the soul goes back to heaven, and waits to be born again. I actually like that way of thinking. It's not necessarily reincarnation, which I know some religions have a problem with, but instead just a second chance for that specific soul or something. It's hard to describe. x3 Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 Why do people continue to trot out adoption as if it's a magical reset button that allows both mother and baby to go on living happy, separate lives? Adopting out a child doesn't address the issue of having to be pregnant against your will, give birth against your will, or experience the extreme physical and emotional changes and sacrifices that pregnancy demands. Adopting out a child doesn't mean that child won't choose to one day track down their birth mother and attempt to form a relationship - a situation which plenty of women don't want to be in, ever. Adopting out a child DOES mean giving it over to a horrifically broken and overburdened system that is fraught with abuse, negligence and potential hazards that are too big to be ignored. It also means that you're saddling that child with an entire lifetime's worth of (potentially unanswered) questions about their birth and parentage, and likely feelings of abandonment. The odds are not in that child's favor when it comes to getting out of such a system unscathed. I know this has probably been said a thousand times before in this thread, but geez. Let's get freaking realistic here. The issue is: some women do not, under any circumstances, want to be pregnant/give birth. Adoption does not cover that issue. Not even close. Take your pick: Don't think about pregnancy in how demanding it is and what it forces the mother to give up Think of pregnancy as a punishment Don't understand how it can be very hard for a mother to give a child up, even if that's the best option at that point Don't realize the adoption system isn't "pop out baby, hand baby to new parents, go on your way" Don't actually care what happens to the mother or the baby as long as it's not abortion Point to successful adoption stories and consider them the norm, not the ideal Personally, I'm an adoption success--I was taken home just a few days at most after my birth, and I really have very little in the way of questions, and don't feel any weird disconnect (they created me, but didn't raise me, so they're not really my parents IMO), and don't feel any resentment or anything (it wasn't in their best interests--and thus not in mine--for them to raise me at the time). But I'm a lucky one. I was very fortunate that I didn't end up lingering in the system. My case is the IDEAL, not the norm that far, FAR too many children face, that far too many adults faced as kids. And until my situation because the actual norm faced by the incredibly vast majority of kids put up for adoption, then adoption really can't be used as the glorious alternative to parenting that people want to make it. And, since it's an alternative to PARENTING rather than PREGNANCY, abortion will still always be important as an option even if we can somehow make the adoption system damn near perfect. Also, Sock, you've done wonderfully--saying what I wanted to say far more civilly than I could. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 In fairness to Hatsune, they are only seven months old so they can be forgiven for such an immature outlook on life. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) I'm pro choice. I fully recognize that the clump of cells inside the person who is pregnant is a human being. However, that baby is still inside the parent and I believe that the parent's rights as a human being that has already been born trumps the rights of the baby inside of them that hasn't already been born. It sucks, but I'm not for taking away the rights of someone who's already been born in order to cater to the rights of the baby that still hasn't taken its first real breath of life. I am often seen as an extremist because this also leads me to say that I think abortion should be legal until the baby is actually born even if that means keeping abortion totally legal for the full nine months. No restrictions whatsoever. If the baby isn't born yet and the actual process of childbirth has not already begun, then I think that abortion should be legal no matter how far along the pregnancy is. Rights of person who's already been born still trumps rights of person who has yet to be born no matter how tragic that might be. I would never try to push someone into having an abortion as that is their decision alone. If I were asked for advice, I'd tell the person to just really think about their situation and do what they feel is best for them as this is a really sensitive topic. I'm also not anti-baby as some people in my life have accused me of being due to my views on this matter. I know that I would like to either have or adopt a child or two of my own someday. I also know that I would support anyone who chooses to go through with their pregnancy and have their child or give it up for adoption just as much as I would support someone who decided to abort. None of those choices is better or worse than the others in my opinion. Would I still get an abortion if I thought it was for the best? Yes, yes I would. I'm not going to stop having sex either just to avoid this situation. I am currently abstaining from having sex while I work through my issues with past and recent sexual abuse anyway, but I know that I would never let myself be shamed for having sex. Sex =/= losing your rights to any baby that might be conceived due to sex. Again, until that kid is born, the parent has all the right in the world to make whatever choice they want to make in my eyes. Edit: I have not read through this thread (and probably won't because 300 pages is a lot of material), but none of what I wrote is directed towards anyone here. Also, I know I'm a newbie so most people won't care anyway, but I won't be replying to anyone unless they have a question that is asked respectfully. Edited June 22, 2014 by Ofelia Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 In fairness to Hatsune, they are only seven months old so they can be forgiven for such an immature outlook on life. Wow. VERY literate for one so young I have attempted suicide. It was not the act of a wuss. I have had an abortion. Also not the act of a wuss. I am very much pro choice, and I would defend the right of anyone to say they would never EVER have an abortion (or kill themselves, though that's something you only discover when that desperate moment comes.) But I will never defend the right of anyone to say that I cannot have one if I want one. Whyever I want it - that is no-one's business but mine. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 22, 2014 I have had an abortion. Also not the act of a wuss. Very true. In fact, as said many a time before, choosing to have an abortion is a very responsible choice, not a "wussy" one. Share this post Link to post
Recommended Posts