Abortion

[whitebaron]

well, I haven't had acne for about hum, I think 3 years or so now, I can't remember what medicine I had but it was a half red half yellow pill and made me feel sick always after taking it and yeah back then they did ask if birth control pill would be option but back then my mom said no to it since I was underage and I bet she was thinking i'd b running around to have sex then 

Haha, well, you could have run around and had sex, anyway, so... Bad argument. I took isotretinoin for my skin, it was the worst time ever. Everything dry like papyrus, your eyes, your skin, but at least it got rid of the worst of my skin troubles and ekzemes.

 

Back to the topic on hand: if you take Isotretinion, you have to sign a contract of some forms, that you do NOT get pregnant.

To ensure this, you HAVE to take a pill. If you get pregnant, you HAVE to abort (its in the contract).

It always damages the unborn, no matter what you do. Its why you only get it if you agree to those terms. (btw: this only applies to women taking it - its teratogenic, but does nothing to sperm. go figure if that's fair.)

 

Its why my wife was very hesitant to take it before we get our kids, as accidents still happen sometimes - but afterwards, she might just try it.

Edited January 14, 2014 by whitebaron

[Hisa]

Haha, well, you could have run around and had sex, anyway, so... Bad argument. I took isotretinoin for my skin, it was the worst time ever. Everything dry like papyrus, your eyes, your skin, but at least it got rid of the worst of my skin troubles and ekzemes.

 

Back to the topic on hand: if you take Isotretinion, you have to sign a contract of some forms, that you do NOT get pregnant.

To ensure this, you HAVE to take a pill. If you get pregnant, you HAVE to abort (its in the contract).

It always damages the unborn, no matter what you do. Its why you only get it if you agree to those terms. (btw: this only applies to women taking it - its teratogenic, but does nothing to sperm. go figure if that's fair.)

 

Its why my wife was very hesitant to take it before we get our kids, as accidents still happen sometimes - but afterwards, she might just try it.

I've never heard of contracts like that made in finland, in here most of medicine are given so that ofc the doctor tells about the side effects and etc, and then gives a recipe with which you can get it from the pharmacy (tho some medicides you can get without recipe from pharmacies) oh well, but yah I'd say no pill for me at least yet since I only see my bf about twice a year , once we can live together will see if we will decide to have a kid or continue same way- or will I get a pill

[whitebaron]

I've never heard of contracts like that made in finland, in here most of medicine are given so that ofc the doctor tells about the side effects and etc, and then gives a recipe with which you can get it from the pharmacy (tho some medicides you can get without recipe from pharmacies) oh well,  but yah I'd say no pill for me at least yet since I only see my bf about twice a year , once we can live together will see if we will decide to have a kid or continue same way- or will I get a pill

you might want to read up on this, then.

They call it a consent form, but basically it is a contract. I'm sure there's the same thing in finland, too.

 

In the US it is even worse. =>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPLEDGE // http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin#...irth_defects.29

 

PS: I have no clue what this says, but does it say anything about such a form?

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoiini

[Hisa]

PS: I have no clue what this says, but does it say anything about such a form?

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoiini

Nope, it only tells even small amount can damage the fetus badly and increases chance of miscarry when using it and doctor must know the requirements into using it and then there's few names of medicines with it

[Fuzzbucket]

That was in reply to the argument of kagesora, that others teach your kids more than you can ever do - that society at large ingrains them more than we do. And that is just not true. If you care, your kids are NOT taught by TV and kindergarten. Yes, you can do it that way... see what it brings us...

Easily said. The world is all around your children whenever they leave the house. They cannot avoid it.

[edwardelricfreak]

That was in reply to the argument of kagesora, that others teach your kids more than you can ever do - that society at large ingrains them more than we do. And that is just not true. If you care, your kids are NOT taught by TV and kindergarten. Yes, you can do it that way... see what it brings us...

But Kage didn't say they taught your kids more than you do. Kage said:

Because that's basically the only way to avoid it--you are not the sole teacher of your children.  Society is a large teacher to them.  Their peers are huge teachers.  Their school teachers will help shape their views of themselves and the world.

 

It's true that society teaches a lot of things. Society IS a large teacher for children. Whether it's MORE of a teacher than the child's parents are depends on how good of a parent you are and how much you teach your child. It's possible for society to be a larger teacher to your child.

 

And YES, kids are DEFINITELY taught by TV and kindergarten. We have shows like Sesame Street on TV for a reason. And kindergarten? That's kind of the whole point: teaching your children.

 

Yes, they learn basic things like language and stuff. But just seeing how other children interact with each other, how other parents treat your child when they're around at school, etc, teaches your child how to act.

 

Even if you were to keep your child at home, literally all the time, not letting them go outside at all, you would have to keep them from reading a lot of stories, watching movies/TV, being on the internet, etc, for you to be the ONLY thing that ever teaches them how to behave and act. And you'd have to keep it that way forever, because as soon as they're around other people, they start learning how the world works.

 

But you're right, it's not completely true that society teaches your child more than you as a parent do. It's possible that it can, but not always. Parents are usually the primary source, though. Doesn't mean they're the most influential.

 

Besides, you sound like you teach your kids a lot so you're most likely at least 50%.

[Kith]

Parents can also be involved with teaching a child about how/what society teaches them, and help form the child's opinion on what to do with those teachings. The child can still either accept or reject the parents' instruction, but at least there can be an in-home counter to objectification, inequalities, rape culture, the triumph/shame sex dichotomy, and other negative things that society puts out.

[whitebaron]

Easily said. The world is all around your children whenever they leave the house. They cannot avoid it.

No, of course they get out. What's the point of preparing someone for life if they dont get to live it after.

 

But: kage made it very much clear to me in that post, that kids in her opinion are likely to be taught more by surroundings than the parents.

 

 

Also, I want to chime back on shaming and rape culture: That's a US problem. Here, if you are bad at school but good at sports, you don't get a degree. You are not passed on so your college team can be better - you just will have to work for it or leave. We don't even have that large teams to start with, or that popular sports (at school) where you would be protected just because you are the top xxxx-back of YYY High.

 

Yes, there are gender inequalities - but they are nowhere near as big as in the US, or how else could I have stayed at home for 9 months with our baby?

[Syaoransbear]

Unless one parent stays home after the child is born and then home schools when the child is old enough it seems like society spends more time teaching your kids than you if you are both working full time. Like my SIL and her husband. The kids go to daycare from 8:30am to 5pm, then they are asleep by 8pm. They really only get the weekend to do anything(and by then the parents just want to relax), weekdays are basically getting ready to go to daycare, supper, then putting the kids to bed.

 

And then from ages 5-18 the kid is in school while the parents don't get home until 5pm. How can any full time parent be spending more time with their kids than society?

 

My SIL's kids still ended up learning that dolls are for girls and cars are for boys despite my SIL being a strong feminist. Girls get toys that prepare them for a life of their appearance being their most important asset and boys get toys that evolve their interests and individuality.

 

My dad is a mechanic, so you'd think somewhere along the way I would have learned something about vehicles, but I never learned a single thing while my brothers learned everything. One went on to be a mechanic as well. It wasn't that I didn't express interest, I was just disregarded because of my gender. It was basically like "But you're a girl. Girls play house, they don't learn useful skills like how to fix vehicles."

[diannethegeek]

No, of course they get out. What's the point of preparing someone for life if they dont get to live it after.

 

But: kage made it very much clear to me in that post, that kids in her opinion are likely to be taught more by surroundings than the parents.

 

 

Also, I want to chime back on shaming and rape culture: That's a US problem. Here, if you are bad at school but good at sports, you don't get a degree. You are not passed on so your college team can be better - you just will have to work for it or leave. We don't even have that large teams to start with, or that popular sports (at school) where you would be protected just because you are the top xxxx-back of YYY High.

 

Yes, there are gender inequalities - but they are nowhere near as big as in the US, or how else could I have stayed at home for 9 months with our baby?

Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with US culture? Since you implied earlier that we're just a backwater slum and are making the comparison, I think it's fair to ask what kind of frame of reference we're dealing with.

 

Rape culture is not just about college sports and there are plenty of stay at home fathers in the US as well. These things don't negate the gender issues inherent in Western culture right now.

[whitebaron]

@Syaoran: We have set aside "some" money to be able to work less.

What's the fun in having kids, if you only bring them to bed and to school? Also, staying at home till the child is 2.5 years old is pretty mandatory here - you get money for it, and the kindergartens are pretty much set up so they start in fall after your kid turns 2.5

 

@dianne: well, i have been in the US twice, but thats a long time ago. (last time was 1996) I also did not imply that this is for all the US - its just that I can't understand where all this comes from - but maybe my experiences with socal have just been different than what is prevalent in rest of the US.

 

I only learned about that us women feel the us have a rape culture here - and all the descriptions given by now, in this thread, indicate nothing of the like how society works in middle europe. You rape someone, you get caught, you go to jail. Its not like those horror stories we hear on tv of the us where whole cities try to make their local jocks go free.

[HeatherMarie]

The problem with talking about "rape culture" in ANY country is that the *majority* of rapes aren't even reported. So it's really not as simple as saying "You rape someone, you get caught, you go to jail" because so often that simply doesn't happen, and I'm *not* just talking about the US. I'm well aware that the statistics, just for *reported* rapes, are ridiculously high in the US.

 

But you *cannot* take your own personal "experiences", and what you have or have not heard, and make claims that there is no rape culture where you live, that it's "nothing of the like how society works" there. Just because you personally don't know the statistics, don't know people who've been raped, etc, doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

I liked the comparison someone made to depression. Whether it's pregnancy, abortion, rape, etc, unless you've been there you just *don't know*.

 

And kindergarten starts at 2 1/2 years old where you live?! I was home with my mother, being raised and taught, until I was 5 years old. Because that's when kindergarten started. I knew much more then my fellow classmates that year because I'd had a mother who stayed home and taught me and played with me and helped me explore new things, instead of parents who shoved their child into daycare asap.

That was 5 years. Multiple studies have shown that adults don't normally retain solid memories from before the age of 2.

[prairiecrow]

The irony of someone who (by virtue of their biological sex) benefits from institutionalized sexism presuming to tell us "silly wimminz" that sexism doesn't exist, or that rape culture isn't in play...

 

*coughs*

 

I'm gonna go make popcorn. Anybody want some?

[whitebaron]

The irony of someone who (by virtue of their biological sex) benefits from institutionalized sexism presuming to tell us "silly wimminz" that sexism doesn't exist, or that rape culture isn't in play...

 

*coughs*

 

I'm gonna go make popcorn. Anybody want some?

~Removed~

 

@marie: please read the whole part, about setting aside money to work less, too... and i still wonder, where that assumption comes from, that every civilised country needs to work like the USA. who is, form my experience, one of the least civilized western countries. we need something? we take it. Its no big wonder, that this continues internally, be it between managers and their workers, or males and females.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[prairiecrow]

~Removed~

That you're even willing to joke about the real oppression and misery of countless women speaks volumes. Thanks for trolling, though! I'm done talking to you.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[edwardelricfreak]

and i still wonder, where that assumption comes from, that every civilised country needs to work like the USA.

Wait who said this? If anything I think we're pretty much agreeing that the US needs to be like OTHER countries, namely European ones.

 

the USA. who is, form my experience, one of the least civilized western countries.

True dat, though.

 

(trying to get back on topic more, lol)

 

But still, a lot of countries are patriarchal, so men will tend to be privileged. It's quite common for them to not realize the hardships women go through and don't understand from a woman's viewpoint.

 

Different viewpoints occur all over the place, though, not just in the sexes. It happens between religions, between ages, social classes, depressed vs not depressed, sexualities, cultures, etc. The list goes on. No one person perceives the world in the same way, and if they have ANY of those different "lenses", they can perceive it even more differently. A lot of the time, people won't perceive oppression if it's not directly affecting them, whereas others DO perceive it because it DOES affect them. Some are able to perceive oppression when it doesn't affect them, as well as the opposite.

 

So no, I don't think men and women share the same viewpoints. No one does. Even with the same lenses, we all have different eyes. So even amongst women or amongst men, they can all easily see different things.

 

So when it comes to something that affects people who are able to bear children (basically excluding men, infertile women, and I guess premature children as only a maturing girl could?), since those that cannot bear children can never experience it and thus won't be able to see through that lens, their opinion cannot matter more than those that can potentially or have already seen through it and experienced or will potentially experience pregnancy.

 

It's not a sexism issue, because it can only affect one sex and it's still possible to exclude members of that sex. It doesn't affect you directly. It would happen to your wife, not you.

 

However, it does still oppress (not all, but many) women and places a fetus's life above a mother's. Often times the views are held by those that view all women as lesser.

 

Things that aren't the issue:

-Sexual intercourse (especially amongst teens but still amongst everyone in general)

-Sex

-Gender

 

To me, it's good that you are pro-choice, baron, but not so good that you don't see all the troubles women go through. To be honest, you never will see everything, and that's perfectly fine. But I think you can trust that if a bunch of us ladies are saying "uh yeah there's definitely oppression of women", then there's oppression of women (and not because we play victims or will it into existence, like self-fulfilling prophecies. That would be dumb).

[sparkle10184]

It's true that statistics show that the US is the country with the highest rape count. But, as Marie19R said, many rape cases go unreported. Only about 16% of rape cases get reported.

[Fuzzbucket]

I have just been talking to a teacher who has regular contact with many girls and boys aged between 16 and 20. They all agree that the culture where men see themselves as superior is getting steadily worse (after it HAD been improving somewhat over several years) - this, they all agree, has been very much worse over the last 10 years.

 

He reports that he would have said this himself too. The students also say that sexual violence by boys on girls has got a lot worse. That the boys seem to expect to get away with it.

 

This is in the UK - which is NOT a slum of any kind. (By the way - how do you KNOW all rapists in your part of the world end up in jail ? A Montenegran I know would certainly disagree...)

[KageSora]

That was in reply to the argument of kagesora, that others teach your kids more than you can ever do - that society at large ingrains them more than we do. And that is just not true. If you care, your kids are NOT taught by TV and kindergarten. Yes, you can do it that way... see what it brings us...

So, please, do share this magical method of parenting that manages to give your child the magical power to completely defy the subtle but often powerful messages they will be bombarded with every day of their lives once they get out of the house?

 

Because the simple fact of the matter is that, unless you lock them away, you CANNOT protect them forever. You can make them oblivious to it for a while--but eventually they will have their eyes opened, they will realize that the world sees them as lesser. That they are toys for men. That they are objects to be used and discarded when a better one comes along.

 

Because that is what the constant messages from the world around them subtly convey.

[Brite]

That was in reply to the argument of kagesora, that others teach your kids more than you can ever do - that society at large ingrains them more than we do. And that is just not true. If you care, your kids are NOT taught by TV and kindergarten. Yes, you can do it that way... see what it brings us...

 

 

Not true. My aunt tried this with her children. One turned out to be golden (Oooo yay good for him) the other was rebellious and wild.

[High Lord November]

Oh, come on please. Stop that "We are tiny little lambs and need to be protected" or "We have very different mindsets, attitudes" - crap. It's the mindset like this that stabilizes these ideas you say are so common in the USA. It very obviously is NOT the same over here.

 

That aside, I did not say it's small or negligible. You made that up entirely yourself. And I do NOT like if someone puts words into my mouth, especially if they make it feel like I am the evil enemy. (which I am not.)

 

 

@the pill: my wife is allowed to take only 2 out of like 20 that can be prescribed here, due to medical issues. She's pretty healthy, but due to acne (yes, at 33 still) and low blood pressure, the doctor really has little choices left.

Baron, are you trolling me? Are you purposefully ignoring the point of what I wrote? Are you trying to write inflammatory, unrelated comments? Honest question. Go ahead and consider what I wrote past the first sentence, that's the really important bit that you seem to not understand.

 

You are now that depression guy I was talking about. It's ridiculous that you don't think women and men have differences. From what I'm getting from your posts, you are actually part of the problem. You seem to think that today's society is normal and equal. Men and women are pretty equal. Alternatively, you've also indicated from your posts that you apply what it's like where you are to everywhere (in that case, realize that we're talking about the problems and not about the places that don't have problems; obviously we are talking about the states and elsewhere, and you seem dead set on applying the conditions where you are to the rest of the world). Protip: we aren't.

 

Here is direct proof that you think that way, so you can't say "you are putting words in my mouth". You think that saying that men and women are different and that women have it worse than men means

"women are tiny little lambs that need to be protected"

. You directly call the idea that

we have very different mindsets, attitudes crap

. You don't believe that we have different mindsets and attitudes, or that we're treated differently.

 

That is a fact. We have pointed out that this is a fact, and that you cannot and never will experience it, but you continuously brush it off with some form of "no it isn't." We have presented you with the evidence that we are, and you ignore it. It is 100% true fact that you will never experience what we do.

 

Perhaps you have a state of mind that I'm "whining" about absolutely everything and that everything is a problem ("oh, woe is meee booohoo someone offered me a pink crayon down with men" perhaps it?) I'm not. Note here that I'm not, take a moment to revise your state of mind, maybe reread what I'm saying, and then continue. Not everything is an issue. Not everything is a problem. I'm talking about those things that are problems. And they really do affect women, or else they wouldn't be problems.

Edited January 15, 2014 by High Lord November

[Lila]

I'll just be totally honest, whitebaron, I have NO idea what your stance is on abortion. If anything, I feel like this argument should be in the sexism topic, because everything that whitebaron is saying could be addressed by equalists there, as it seems abortion is not the discussion, but accountability.

 

But that's just my opinion. I hope I'm not 'mini-modding' o-o

[HeatherMarie]

From what I've been able to understand, he tries to come across as pro-choice, while also putting the responsibility for all things sex-and-pregnancy related on the female. And I think it just went from there into the more sexism-topic parts. But I agree, Lila, I still don't have much of a clue either.

[Obscure_Trash]

I cannot properly read through and mod this topic on mobile, so I am closing this until a mod can look at it.

[hazeh]

Since I am reopening the topic now, I want to remind users that issues with comments should be handled via a report to a moderator so we can deal with it.

 

Thank you.