Abortion

[Dr. Paine]

... no.

 

No it's not.

 

Unless you are the one carrying the baby, your words will never carry the same weight. Ever. That's not sexism, that's a basic logical fact. It's the same way my words will never carry as much weight in a discussion of like... testicular health or something. I don't have the equipment, I will never have the experiences, and it's incredibly stupid to think that I should have equal say in something that cannot and will not ever have even half the same impact on me.

 

So, please, Whitebaron. Just give... one, solid reason why men/people who just plain are not able to carry children and never will, should have equal, or, (as it often is) greater say over those who can. Yes, it sucks having to deal with throw up or someone who's moody, but are you the one having your internal organs rearranged? Hormone imbalances you cannot control and can completely change your behavior on a day to day basis? The risk of your abdominal wall muscles coming apart and leaving you with a grand canyon in your gut? The rest of the huge host of mental/physical health problems that can screw you up for the rest of your life?

 

 

 

(Edited for possible language slip up)

Edited January 10, 2014 by Dr. Paine

[Bex]

The way I see it, as soon as men can safely remove a developing fetus I don't want from my body and implant it into themselves, they get to have a say on whether or not I have the right to have an abortion.

 

I am confident that having an abortion WAS the responsible thing for me to do at the point in my life I chose it. As a responsible person, I am stuck with the consequences of my actions, and I am not going to let someone tell me that my decision was wrong, especially someone who will never ever be able to understand the fear and doubt that goes along with finding out you're pregnant and don't wish to be. No male person can ever feel how that feels. Please explain to me why any male should have a say in what choice I make? No one has ever been able to answer this question.

 

 

[whitebaron]

Again: I can have as much opinion as anyone else who has never been pregnant, then. Woohoo - which is likely 90% of this thread.

 

Noone gets a say in what you do - I am neither your partner nor your doctor. But those should have a voice/part. And everyone can have opinions and voice them.

[KageSora]

Agreed with Drache.

 

As soon as males are capable of taking a fetus into themselves and having it grow inside them then giving birth to it, AND we have laws in place that if the female doesn't want it t hen they HAVE to take it, they can have equal say in abortion.

 

Until then, you can have your opinion--you can discuss it with the female who is carrying your partial DNA bundle... But you don't get to have the same weight as said female.

Edited January 10, 2014 by KageSora

[Destiny Arts]

You know not all pregantcies are bad as I see, yes you will have sickness and all the other stuff that goes along with it but you just have to suck it up and deal with it. If it is such a huge burden why not just freeze the fetus and let someone else who can't have kids have it? It saves you from having it and letting someone else be happy.

[Dr. Paine]

You know not all pregantcies are bad as I see, yes you will have sickness and all the other stuff that goes along with it but you just have to suck it up and deal with it. If it is such a huge burden why not just freeze the fetus and let someone else who can't have kids have it? It saves you from having it and letting someone else be happy.

Because we are nowhere near that level of technology. We haven't even gotten anything like... working uterus transplants that I know of (And believe me, I would jump at the chance to give mine away to someone who wants it...).

 

And most pregnancies are honestly more than 'a little sickness', and often not something you can just suck up and deal with, even wanted ones. (I'm sorry to sound curt here, I'm just stating the facts ^^; It's a very involved, insane process that can vary wildly, go belly up at any time... I'll let others get into that, though.)

Edited January 10, 2014 by Dr. Paine

[brairtrainer]

You know not all pregantcies are bad as I see, yes you will have sickness and all the other stuff that goes along with it but you just have to suck it up and deal with it. If it is such a huge burden why not just freeze the fetus and let someone else who can't have kids have it? It saves you from having it and letting someone else be happy.

When this is a true viable alternative perhaps this will be a reality. Right now frozen fetus' are used in stem cell research (or would be if there weren't bans), and can't be impregnated into a woman. Frozen sperm can, frozen eggs can, frozen featus' cannot.

 

For animals where there are movements of fetus' from one animal to another it is done very quickly with both animals present at the same time.

[Destiny Arts]

@Braintrainer and Dr. Paine

 

Really? I have heard of a few people that were frozen fetuses and that were happy to be in the family that chose them after they grew up.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Destiny Arts

[brairtrainer]

@Braintrainer

 

Really? I have heard of a few people that were frozen fetuses and that were happy to be in the family that chose them after they grew up.

It's not common, and it is probably very very expensive. It isn't a viable alternative for most people.

 

Can I have sources though for the frozen fetuses? Mostly because when I've studied animal husbandry and looked at genetic and medical things online I have not come across stories like those.

[whitebaron]

Its not a fetus. Its just a blob of cells that get frozen. At the 4 or 8 cell stage, iirc.

[Destiny Arts]

@ Braintrainer

 

I shall try to provide a link It have been a while since I have heard the story.

 

I did see tho it is not very common and very hard to do. It may have been just an embryo then I heard about let see keep looking for you.

 

Edited: I believe it was just embryos that can be frozen quickly. My bad sorry.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Destiny Arts

[brairtrainer]

embryo or blastoplast make more sense, but still is tricky and most places don't have the ability to preserve them in the state they'd need to be in, thanks for looking for your source

Edited January 10, 2014 by brairtrainer

[Destiny Arts]

embryo or blastoplast make more sense, but still is tricky and most places don't have the ability to preserve them in the state they'd need to be in, thanks for looking for your source

I edited my post.

 

But yes it is an embryo that is frozen not a fetus.

 

Tho is it possible to transfer it to someone else? Like who can't have children?

Edited January 10, 2014 by Destiny Arts

[LascielsShadow]

People do donate/adopt embryos, but those are embryos that developed from eggs fertilised in petri dishes in a lab, not inside someone's body. They're generally leftover embryos from someone's IVF treatment that they choose to donate to give other infertile people a chance to have a child. They are NOT taken directly from one woman's body and put into another. (At least, I've never heard of it being done that way.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_donation

Edited January 10, 2014 by LascielsShadow

[brairtrainer]

I edited my post.

 

But yes it is an embryo that is frozen not a fetus.

 

Tho is it possible to transfer it to someone else? Like who can't have children?

Going off what I know about animals: it should be possible as long as there isn't a defect in the womb that prevents the animal who will be carrying the fetus (embryo etc) to term.

 

Fun fact: Some rabbits can hold horse embryos for small periods of time and have neither one suffer. Note: longest I've heard of this being done is a day, and was done in a lab setting, though it could mean that someday rabbits could be used to transfer fetus' to broodmares from mares who are still showing

 

EDIT: LascielsShadow gave you what happens now, I just gave a theoretical answer due to what I learned when taking breeding rabbits)4h), breeding horses and horse genetics(4h), and articles off the internet

Edited January 10, 2014 by brairtrainer

[Bex]

Again: I can have as much opinion as anyone else who has never been pregnant, then. Woohoo - which is likely 90% of this thread.

 

Noone gets a say in what you do - I am neither your partner nor your doctor. But those should have a voice/part. And everyone can have opinions and voice them.

Honestly, your opinion means nothing to me. You can think whatever you want about me. But when people's opinions begin changing laws that are then used to force me to do things with my body that I don't want, then it's not longer just a matter of opinion.

 

And I don't even agree that my "partner and/or doctor should have a say." Why should my partner get a say? What if my partner is some nameless man I had a one-night-stand with? Suddenly because he happened to have a willing manhood he gets some voice in how I live the rest of my life? What if he was a rapist? Or a family member who took advantage of me? Not all babies are created between two people who love each other and are capable to making decisions together in the best interest of the life they just created.

 

And my doctor only gets a say as long as I feel I can trust that he has my best interests in mind rather than his own agenda and personal beliefs. At the end of the day, I am paying my doctor for a service, and I can always find another one.

 

I have worked alongside doctors long enough to know better than to trust them 100% of the time.

[High Lord November]

excuse me? I already have a child. And of course, as a responsible person, you are stuck with the consequences.

 

I might not have suffered some of the adverse effects, but I also did not get to feel the positives. Also, in the long term picture, the 9 months pregnancy are a small commitment, i'm really at a loss of words what to answer to tha as it is even worse sexism than the initial statement.

 

 

Did it EVER occur to you that foul days of your wife might be foul days for the man too? That bad health is additional stress, too? That morning sickness someone needs to clean who's a little healthier?

 

So please spare me that ridiculous double standard. Its silly and sexist, to ignore the father.

 

Major edit to tone the post down and added some information.

 

Never. You can have your opinion, but it should never, ever be weighed more than, or even close to, the opinion of those who can get pregnant. Ever. Never ever ever.

 

You want the sickness? The bad health? The pain of birth? The physical changes to your body? The knowledge that you have an unwanted parasite growing in you? The permanent changes to your life? TAKE IT. I don't want it, and you obviously do, seeing that you think it's a "small 9-month commitment" and that having to deal with the effects is anywhere *close* to having to deal with the actual aliments.

 

That is what we're talking about. If I get pregnant; scratch that, right now, at this moment, I want to hook up a magic machine that will give you all of the nasty side effects and transfer the pain of birth and the fear and the sickness to you. You don't want it? Too bad. You have to, whether you like it or not. You are now pregnant against your will. You have to keep it and birth that child. Right now. Financial situation doesn't matter. Personal opinions don't matter. Career? Doesn't matter.

 

Oh, now let's add a twist; I am the one forcing you to be pregnant, and I can't ever get pregnant. I can't ever get an idea of what you really have to go through, and I'm deciding what you should do.

 

The issue is that it's not even equal! Men are the ones that are deciding whether or not I can get an abortion. That is not right. When you start to encroach on my rights to abort, especially if you cannot ever feel what it's like to be me, and we're telling you that it's a bad thing, your opinion will not be weighed in. I don't know if anyone has shown you those "situational pro-lifers", but even those who would vehemently oppose abortion, when getting pregnant, would end up going to the clinic on the grounds that they are "morally superior" and that "they are different", all the other girls there being s. Even those that oppose abortion will get it because they just don't consider the reasons why someone would get one, and when the situation comes up it suddenly hits them in the face. So I ask you now; why would someone get an abortion?

 

This is what we have to deal with. People who will never, ever get pregnant telling me that a pregnancy is a small nine month commitment that I'll just have to deal with. That having to clean up after the sick pregnant woman can even begin to compare with being the sick woman. That their opinion, despite not being able to get pregnant, is equal to the opinion of the people that can get pregnant and have to deal with the consequences, whether it's abortion or birth. It is equal to my opinion, when I'm the only one who can get pregnant.

 

 

And I'm going to repeat Sock's question, because you seem to be ignoring it. I want you to list to me possible reasons why a woman would want to abort.

Edited January 10, 2014 by High Lord November

[whitebaron]

You're mixing people up, there. Sock never asked ME anything. (i'm not even a pro-lifer, lol)

i just get very upset when girls go all crazy and blame/shame everything on the males, because, well, some of the genome comes from us.

 

Last time I checked, populations were about equal between men and wonen in this world. Last time I checked, voting was open to all adults in the us, not only males. Last time I checked, there were no restrictions in place forcing only males into politics.

 

 

So lets face it: those bad, evil lawmakers getvoted into office by females, too.

[High Lord November]

You're mixing people up, there. Sock never asked ME anything. (i'm not even a pro-lifer, lol)

i just get very upset when girls go all crazy and blame/shame everything on the males, because, well, some of the genome comes from us.

 

Last time I checked, populations were about equal between men and wonen in this world. Last time I checked, voting was open to all adults in the us, not only males. Last time I checked, there were no restrictions in place forcing only males into politics.

 

 

So lets face it: those bad, evil lawmakers getvoted into office by females, too.

I mized you up with Htt, sorry.

 

Genome doesn't have anything to do with it. Why do you keep on bringing it up? Pregnancy does. Pregnancy and the ability to abort is the entire topic of conversation. I'm saying that you don't get a heavily weighted say in whether I stay pregnant or not, because you can't be pregnant. Ever.

 

Last time I checked, most of the powerful or influential people trying to ban abortion are either religious and/or male. Last time I checked, males dominate the political world. They shouldn't get any say in my ability to abort, yet they get way too loud/powerful a voice. Hence, men are deciding my ability to abort. It's not all men, but a good portion of it is, when it should be almost none.

 

Your initial post had nothing to do with what you're saying here. You equivalented cleaning up after the pregnant woman as suffering somewhere on the same scale; you called pregnancy a small 9-month commitment, like I just pop out a baby and then everything disappears, everything's ok again. This is why you should not have a weighted vote in my ability to abort. That post indicated that you think pregnancy is something a little bit hard but something everyone can deal with, when it is not. And then you have the gall to call it sexism. This isn't about you. It's about those who can become pregnant.

 

And if you can bring up statistics to prove me wrong, I will gladly retract whatever I am wrong about.

Edited January 10, 2014 by High Lord November

[HeatherMarie]

You're mixing people up, there. Sock never asked ME anything. (i'm not even a pro-lifer, lol)

i just get very upset when girls go all crazy and blame/shame everything on the males, because, well, some of the genome comes from us.

 

Last time I checked, populations were about equal between men and wonen in this world. Last time I checked, voting was open to all adults in the us, not only males. Last time I checked, there were no restrictions in place forcing only males into politics.

 

 

So lets face it: those bad, evil lawmakers getvoted into office by females, too.

Last time I checked, male-dominated government *stifles* women from making it to the most influential decisions. Last time I checked, you don't get to those high positions without being promoted/voted, and most males will go to great lengths to keep the majority *men*, for exactly these reasons. So women can't overtake issues like this. So women can't have the voice that they deserve.

 

Yes, we can vote, but we *all* should know by now how much that really matters when it comes to big-ticket issues. Reminder, there have been horrible abortion laws on the table, even *passed*; Not able to be voted on by us citizens at all. So no, this really isn't in our hands. It's in the hands of MEN who have NO idea what it's really like to be pregnant.

[LascielsShadow]

Last time I checked, male-dominated government *stifles* women from making it to the most influential decisions. Last time I checked, you don't get to those high positions without being promoted/voted, and most males will go to great lengths to keep the majority *men*, for exactly these reasons. So women can't overtake issues like this. So women can't have the voice that they deserve.

 

Yes, we can vote, but we *all* should know by now how much that really matters when it comes to big-ticket issues. Reminder, there have been horrible abortion laws on the table, even *passed*; Not able to be voted on by us citizens at all. So no, this really isn't in our hands. It's in the hands of MEN who have NO idea what it's really like to be pregnant.

Exhibit A: The Republican hearing on contraception

http://www.thenation.com/blog/166311/repub...-women-allowed#

 

Also, for a nice new dose of facepalm-inducing WTf, there is this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/j...ement-abortion/

Edited January 10, 2014 by LascielsShadow

[Cecona]

I think Baron thought we were talking about him specifically when mentioning men being able to walk away from a pregnancy, unlike a woman. He wouldn't do it, he sounds like a loyal husband, but there are so many men that have no desire to even deal with it that just disappear because they can. They can just say "Oh it's not mine she's a * it could be anyone's child" and just go off to continue living his life. But a woman's life comes to a complete halt when she get's pregnant, and if she really does not want to be pregnant but cannot abort then her life will become a living hell.

[Brite]

Not to mention men that do.not.help. whatsoever when they ARE still in the relationship. My sister's husband for example. He works, yes. But when he's home, he will not help my sister at all with the 2 year old. He simply says "that's your job" and doesn't feel that he needs to since he thinks he's helped out enough by providing some money. Even when the toddler is screaming at 2 in the morning, he refuses to budge from bed.

[whitebaron]

I'm gonna quote something from lasciels link first:

An April NBC/Wall Street Journal poll of 1,000 adults found 52 percent thinking abortion should be illegal under all or almost all circumstances.

 

Secondly, I did not seatch for all the statistics, but I saw a documentation where it was stated that more woman vote than men, ever since 1980.

 

---Eta

@ghostchilli: well, he sounds like a moron, but stuff like that does not only manifest in children. The same man in all likelihood will say household chores are for women because (insert excuse) and so on in various other topics. If you accept such a behaviour into your relationship in,the first place, "its the womans duty" will be the logical consequence.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2014 by whitebaron

[Obscure_Trash]

Women are voting more and more because we keep getting screwed over in law. Check out what Texas is doing to make sure that women can't vote so that women like Wendy Davis can't win and gross anti-abortion laws can still be pushed and still be put in place.

 

Voting is awesome, but it doesn't actually affect or change much (and the bigger the election the more true this is). When you only have two choices and those two choices only change face but the platform doesn't really change (or it gets more moderate or more conservative but never more liberal) because now it's all party controlled. And since about the 1980's voting and politics in general has swung more and more in favor of corporations and their lobbyists instead of voters (in large part to the development of technology and politicians moving away from precincts and wards and towards large scale media - radio and tv commercials, for example) which means that any politicians voted in are controlled by what corporations and capitalism in general wants. Also hard to vote in women when women are discouraged and turned away from political avenues before they can even run or make it that far, too. Not to mention women who are still heavily suffering internalized misogyny voting for misogynistic candidates who support things like anti-abortion laws (actually you may be interested in this article comments may contain language, some of the comments reminded me of you). And USA/white capitalism runs by several forms of oppression, one of which is sexism, which, yeah, goes towards women being severely underrepresented in politics and therefore in law.

 

Texas voter crap: Comments may contain language http://www.salon.com/2013/10/22/texas_vote..._female_voters/

Some restrictive anti-abortion crap in Texas: Comments may contain language http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-abortion...s-court-review/

Links since, as I recall, you're not from the US.