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Abortions kill a fetus and then remove it from the womb.

That actually depends on how it's done. The most infamous abortions KILL the fetus(during the times it was illegal, and back alleys) by ripping it out of the womb, which had a high chance in the woman getting an infection. Some abortions pull it apart, but I have heard of abortions where the fetus is sucked out, untouched but yes dies after the procedure.

 

 

 

If you are against it, that's your opinion, but if you're supporting the abolition of it, you've overstepped your boundaries.

Edited by GhostChilli

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And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But as soon as you start talking about other people's rights, we have a problem. Morality is hypocrisy in a Sunday suit and you have no right to inject your opinions about right and wrong on other people.

 

Let me redefine my former statement by adding MOST abortions are designed to remove the fetus and it dies as a result. That is because most abortions occur within an early time period and a different method is used vs the later times.

Are you saying it's wrong to tell other people what's right and wrong?

 

That's really just medically untrue...

Abortion

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Is there a documentary on anti-abortion views that doesn't go into the topic of religion? I don't follow it very well, so when people quote and cite passages I find myself unable to understand the points they are trying to make.

 

Also, a documentary on overpopulation in the related searches... haha.

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Are you saying it's wrong to tell other people what's right and wrong?

 

That's really just medically untrue...

Abortion

Depending on what you're trying to say is "right and wrong." there are facts and there are opinions that will always remain opinions, no matter how much someone polishes it to make it seem like a fact.

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And none of those things would be morally okay, because I believe it's always sinful to intend to kill a child, in the womb or otherwise.

 

I agree that none of the "alternatives" to abortion are morally okay. Killing a fetus is morally dubious at best, regardless of the method used. But it can be a lesser evil. There are situations where it would be worse for the child to be born. I've heard pro-lifers push adoption as an alternative, but the adoption system, at least where I come from, is horribly broken.

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Depending on what you're trying to say is "right and wrong." there are facts and there are opinions that will always remain opinions, no matter how much someone polishes it to make it seem like a fact.

So it's your opinion that it's wrong for me to tell other people my opinion of what's right and wrong?

 

I agree that none of the "alternatives" to abortion are morally okay. Killing a fetus is morally dubious at best, regardless of the method used. But it can be a lesser evil. There are situations where it would be worse for the child to be born. I've heard pro-lifers push adoption as an alternative, but the adoption system, at least where I come from, is horribly broken.

 

A broken adoption system doesn't justify murder, if abortion is such.

Edited by philpot123

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So it's your opinion that it's wrong for me to tell other people my opinion of what's right and wrong?

No. I was referring to the video. Sorry I was unclear, it was getting confusing with the quick replies. I need a bit to review the comments

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Whether the fetus is killed before or after removal doesn't matter, because it is going to die anyway. The point is that the fetus is only killed when it is necessary to do so to end the pregnancy. In late term, it is possible to end the pregnancy in a short amount of time and not kill it, which is why many pro-choicers are okay with treating late-term abortion differently from early-term abortion.

 

I look at it this way: In self-defense, you may only use reasonable force. If deadly force is necessary to protect yourself, then it is permitted. However, if it's not necessary, then it is not permitted. Likewise, if it is necessary to kill the fetus in order to end the use of one's body against their will, then it is acceptable. However, if it is not necessary to kill the fetus, then to do so is not acceptable.

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Are you saying it's wrong to tell other people what's right and wrong?

 

That's really just medically untrue...

Abortion

Can you define right and wrong? Can you define it in a manner that is universal to every single person on this planet? No. Morality is a myth because people have differing opinions. In my eyes, there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with abortion. I'm not going to tell someone else how to live their life based on my opinions when theirs may be different. You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself.

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No. I was referring to the video. Sorry I was unclear, it was getting confusing with the quick replies. I need a bit to review the comments

Not a problem smile.gif I ask questions because I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or misrepresenting your position when I respond.

 

Can you define right and wrong? Can you define it in a manner that is universal to every single person on this planet? No. Morality is a myth because people have differing opinions. In my eyes, there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with abortion. I'm not going to tell someone else how to live their life based on my opinions when theirs may be different. You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself.

 

I can define it, but at this point it doesn't appear to be necessary. You cannot say your opinion that there is nothing morally wrong with abortion is correct universally so keep it to yourself.

Edited by philpot123

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Are you saying it's wrong to tell other people what's right and wrong?

Short answer: yes.

 

There are the basic things that people can use on common sense, it's wrong to steal, cheat, lie. Albeit people do it anyway. Then there's other things that cannot have a clear answer because people with religion or "morals" that say that other things are wrong. And frankly, if its so wrong to have an abortion, some women will feel bad for it and regret their choice others won't. Because they feel they did what was in THEIR best interest. It's about choice and what choice each individual makes is up to them. No one else. Period. People need to be the masters of their own "destiny" or life.

Its wrong to tell other people what to do with themselves and try to dictate THEIR choices. It's not you, you have your right to privacy so why not let that be given to others as well. People have a right to privacy. Everyone does. Your morals/religion may not be the same as others so trying to make someone else do what you believe is right might not fly with someone else.

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You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself.

I'm sorry, but just because someone cannot prove their opinion is the correct one does not mean they should keep it to themselves. That's just being closed minded. I disagree with philpot but he has the right to discuss his views with others and even argue them. We all deserve that.

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Short answer: yes.

 

Let's pause for a moment to appreciate the irony in me being told I'm wrong for telling other people they're wrong, and that no one should ever tell anyone something is wrong.

 

...

 

Yup.

Edited by philpot123

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Oh, I think you misunderstood. Bad wording on my part mostly likely :/ What I mean is: Why is an abortion necessary? If it's not going to become a baby, why does it matter? if the odds are as high as they've been implied to me to be, abortions shouldn't even be necessary. And if they aren't, then the whole "it might not become a baby" argument seems null, imeeo

Because it still takes time for those things to happen--and an abortion is there to end the pregnancy. Not to mention that by the time you realize that it didn't actually end up non-viable, it'd be too late to get an abortion.

 

If I don't want something inside me, I'm getting rid of it myself no matter what, I'm not going to wait and hope that I end up with something non-viable that may end up needing to be surgically removed from my body anyway. Especially not if, until that point, I'm going to be forced to have my body screwed up by the thing inside me.

 

Because when it can live outside the womb it deserves human rights because it is a person that is not completely dependent upon someone else.

IMO they don't get human rights until they're surviving outside the host body on their own (well, with appropriate medical support counts). Just because it CAN survive on it's own doesn't mean it IS surviving on it's own.

 

 

Re: Abortion kills fetuses:

 

I, also, feel that the abortion is designed to remove a fetus, and the side effect is that it dies. If abortions were just as capable of removing the fetus and placing it into a new host or into an artificial womb for the same cost, then you could make the distinction between abortions designed to kill and those designed to remove a pregnancy.

 

However, at this time there really isn't a way to terminate a pregnancy without killing the fetus, so it's a unavoidable side effect of the procedures.

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Let's pause for a moment to appreciate the irony in me being told I'm wrong for telling other people they're wrong.

 

...

 

Yup.

blink.gif .... lol. xd.png

 

On a serious note, its fine to share views/opinions, it just ISNT cool to go oppressing people for their choices. THEYRE the ones that have to live with them.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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It's not telling people they are wrong (in your opinion). Share it all you like. Just don't enforce it if you are going to oppress a group of individuals and shame them for something that should not be shamed. The entire fact you say 'Telling other people they're wrong' shows that you are already shaming the people who conflict with your opinions.

 

I don't agree with many religions. But you don't see me shaming them and telling them they are wrong and they need to stop. Because my opinion should not evolve into something that dangerous.

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I don't agree with many religions. But you don't see me shaming them and telling them they are wrong and they need to stop. Because my opinion should not evolve into something that dangerous.

... you're shaming me and telling me I'm wrong and need to stop practicing my religion that I feel obligates me to attempt to save lives that are being murdered.

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... you're shaming me and telling me I'm wrong and need to stop practicing my religion that I feel obligates me to attempt to save lives that are being murdered.

I am respectfully advising you to not shame other people. I never once stated that your opinions are wrong, I merely said that trying to enforce them on other people is wrong. Not share, enforce.

 

Moreover, if this is based upon your religion, it shouldn't be in an argument about abortion. Separation of church and state, remember?

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I, also, feel that the abortion is designed to remove a fetus, and the side effect is that it dies. If abortions were just as capable of removing the fetus and placing it into a new host or into an artificial womb for the same cost, then you could make the distinction between abortions designed to kill and those designed to remove a pregnancy.

I can't believe that I'm once again agreeing with the pro-lifer. This thread is all kinds of wacky.

 

If a child is going to be born with a mental deficiency, such as down syndrome, and the mother, having been made aware of the fetus' condition by her doctor, chooses to abort, the purpose of the abortion is undeniably to destroy the fetus.

 

And even if the child was going to be born healthy, why would any woman donate her womb to raising the aborted fetus of another woman when we already have artificial insemination? Are you saying that in your hypothetical sci-fi wonderland a woman can't have an abortion unless she can find another woman willing to take on her unwanted fetus?

 

Look, I'm pro-choice, but let's not delude ourselves by pretending that abortion is anything other than killing an unborn child/zygote/potential human being/whatever. Sunshine and rainbows it ain't.

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... you're shaming me and telling me I'm wrong and need to stop practicing my religion that I feel obligates me to attempt to save lives that are being murdered.

Describe "attempt" and how you intend to save them. Not mocking anyone here but it only crosses the line when certain actions are taken.

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"You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself."

Is that not telling me I'm wrong? If not, my reading comprehension must be lower than I thought.

 

It's an argument based upon justice, like any other law regarding public policy should be. I just happen to believe that justice needs a standard by which to judge that which is just.

 

Describe "attempt" and how you intend to save them. Not mocking anyone here but it only crosses the line when certain actions are taken.

 

I believe abortion is a moral travesty that should be abolished after the fashion of slavery. I believe I have a moral obligation to submit to civil authority where they aren't commanding me to sin, so I don't believe in breaking laws to achieve the goal of abolition or physically restraining people who are seeking abortions, if that's what you're driving at.

 

Along the same lines, I believe aid and help should be offered to mothers. Christian morality demands more than "forcing people to have babies." True religion is caring for widows, orphans, etc. There's more to it than the law.

 

Anyways, I'm out for the night folks. Thanks for the rousing conversation, as always.

Edited by philpot123

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And there is a line between doing that right and wrong. My church, well, former, used to go to clinics and stand outside and yell at the women going in, calling them murderers, burn in hell, etc. Basically being oppressive.

 

Any religion that teaches that you need to oppress, pillage, kill, shame people that don't do the things you do, believe what you do, are act the way you do, is dangerous dogma.

 

Yet Christianity has a Janus-face. As we note, the Christian religion has inspired much of the world's great art, literature, and music--but many of history's most horrifying crimes were committed in the name of Christ. Christianity has encouraged scientists to seek to know God by understanding nature, but Christianity has also been the most powerful force of obscurantism. Great pioneers in all fields have suffered--and continue to suffer--the ignorant opposition of priests, preachers, and inquisitors. Christianity has comforted, uplifted, ennobled, and empowered. It has also degraded, persecuted, terrorized, and polarized. Both the highest and purest love and the basest and cruelest fanaticism are legacies of Christianity.

 

Then there is the passage in I Samuel 15 where the prophet Samuel, speaking in the name of the Lord, orders Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites: "Spare no one; put them all to death, men and women, children and babes in arms, herds and flocks, camels and asses" (I Samuel 15). What did the Lord have against camels and asses (not to mention babes in arms)? Were the Amalekites so evil, even their infants and animals, that they merited utter extirpation?

 

So if this is the kind of behavior that is expected from a religion. No thank you.

 

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"You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself."

Is that not telling me I'm wrong? If not, my reading comprehension must be lower than I thought.

 

It's an argument based upon justice, like any other law regarding public policy should be. I just happen to believe that justice needs a standard by which to judge that which is just.

 

 

 

I believe abortion is a moral travesty that should be abolished after the fashion of slavery. I believe I have a moral obligation to submit to civil authority where they aren't commanding me to sin, so I don't believe in breaking laws to achieve the goal of abolition or physically restraining people who are seeking abortions, if that's what you're driving at.

 

Along the same lines, I believe aid and help should be offered to mothers. Christian morality demands more than "forcing people to have babies." True religion is caring for widows, orphans, etc. There's more to it than the law.

 

Anyways, I'm out for the night folks. Thanks for the rousing conversation, as always.

Problem is, you can abolish it, it won't stop it, you'll just mask the problems. Abortion will only be truly "abolished" when there is a contraception that is 100% (and much more)

 

Abortion is nature and humans are a part of it, like it or not. Miscarriages are abortions, just in a natural way. Those certainly can't be abolished, and shame on the ones who try to make a case out of it.

 

 

If someone breaths the word "abstinence" I will scream

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What bothers me the most about the anti-choice movement is that would actively deny the right to choice.

 

Why is that okay?

 

As far as adoption goes, I find it a cruel lie to tell people that adoption is a good option when it's almost exclusively not. It's incredibly expensive to adopt, which makes it an infeasible option for some families, and then you get into qualifications to be a foster family. Out of hundreds of thousands of children in the system a year, only around 3% get adopted out, and as a child ages its chances of getting adopted lessen further and further. They're prone to emotional and psychological problems and some of them actively wish they had been aborted or attempt suicide.

 

Why is it somehow less cruel to force this kind of life on anything than it is to never make it aware to begin with?

 

Likewise -

I don't think anyone is denying that abortion ends a life. But I don't believe that that life is a person until it exits the womb. Personhood for me hinges entirely on life experience, and you can't get life experience in the womb where you may not even be conscious/aware yet.

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"You cannot say your opinion is correct universally so keep it to yourself."

Is that not telling me I'm wrong? If not, my reading comprehension must be lower than I thought.

 

It's an argument based upon justice, like any other law regarding public policy should be. I just happen to believe that justice needs a standard by which to judge that which is just.

 

 

 

I believe abortion is a moral travesty that should be abolished after the fashion of slavery. I believe I have a moral obligation to submit to civil authority where they aren't commanding me to sin, so I don't believe in breaking laws to achieve the goal of abolition or physically restraining people who are seeking abortions, if that's what you're driving at.

 

Along the same lines, I believe aid and help should be offered to mothers. Christian morality demands more than "forcing people to have babies." True religion is caring for widows, orphans, etc. There's more to it than the law.

 

Anyways, I'm out for the night folks. Thanks for the rousing conversation, as always.

Keep it to yourself as in do not enforce it as a law. Especially when it is being oppressive. Your own likeness to slavery can be used against you because in the time following the civil war, there was a massive amount of shaming of people of color. Just like there is a massive amount of shaming now.

 

Again, YOU BELIEVE. Just like people following the civil war BELIEVED that PoC should not vote or be free. They had a moral obligation as well. Not all of them lynched and fought but that didn't stop the hate. Because of morals and morality.

 

Like Blight says, there is a line between right and wrong. And it is a horribly, horribly blurred line in that people can't really tell where they stand until history looks back on them and decides who wins or not. The winners are the righteous and the losers are the evil doers.

 

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