Abortion

[Lila]

I feel like a lot of pro-lifers/anti-choicers are painting abortions as most often late-term procedures when in reality it's usually soooo much earlier on than that.

[Kith]

I have yet to see the case were time and experience could not solve most of those problems. PC muscle training especially for those who have trouble with a tiny man meeting a big woman. .

We have different experiences, then. I've come into contact with several people who have had (in total) a variety of compatibility issues, both shape and size related. Some can be solved by gentleness, forcefulness, lubrication, kegels, certain positions that make everything align better, and so on... However, some of the small man/big woman couples had tried everything else, and had to resort to wearable devices for him to make sex pleasurable for them both. Sometimes there is no other solution than involving "accessories" to either substitute for or modify the natural bits, which then involves psychological things that have to be worked through.

[Lila]

If you're talking about sexual compatibility, the only way to know if you're compatible with someone is to have sex. Exploring your sexuality is extremely important and to limit such activities to marriage seems pointless, but I guess that's where the religious texts will come in and forbid you from indulgence in worldly pleasures.

 

Regardless, not everyone follows a religion that dictates their sexuality, and therefore all forms of birth control should be made widely available in order to lower unwanted pregnancies and abortion rates.

[whitebaron]

Pregnancies are 9 months. Recently I've heard stuff about "oh no it's actually 10 months" but I'm pretty sure it's still 9 months, which is 36 weeks. Though to be fair I think it's more like "whenever the baby thinks it's ready and wants to be born".

 

Also I don't understand your point as the abortion point is STILL before the halfway mark, which was my point. If pregnancy somehow got longer, then it's still before the halfway point, and if it's 12 weeks in some countries, again, it's still before the halfway point.

average pregnancies last 40 weeks from last mens till childbirth. period. thats nothing new, you just don't know the proper facts. go check on wikipedia or anywhere else if you must - im not making that up.

 

and my point was, thats its a lot further from the halfway mark than you think, but the child still is fully formed at the end of the first trimester, which is week 14.

[Fuzzbucket]

We have different experiences, then. I've come into contact with several people who have had (in total) a variety of compatibility issues, both shape and size related. Some can be solved by gentleness, forcefulness, lubrication, kegels, certain positions that make everything align better, and so on... However, some of the small man/big woman couples had tried everything else, and had to resort to wearable devices for him to make sex pleasurable for them both. Sometimes there is no other solution than involving "accessories" to either substitute for or modify the natural bits, which then involves psychological things that have to be worked through.

There is also vaginismus, to name but one genuine condition that can prevent intercourse taking place.

 

It is sometimes BUT NOT ALWAYS treatable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginismus

 

There are other such conditions. For a man - Peyronie's Disease. MOST men can be helped - but not all.

 

whitebaron - are you a doctor ? If not - I really wouldn't state so many things - like there being no-one who actually CANNOT have intercourse - as fact. It is not fact. There are people who physically can't, not just on account of a size discrepancy - and the way they discover this is when they first try to have sex.

Edited January 9, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[edwardelricfreak]

average pregnancies last 40 weeks from last mens till childbirth. period. thats nothing new, you just don't know the proper facts. go check on wikipedia or anywhere else if you must - im not making that up.

 

and my point was, thats its a lot further from the halfway mark than you think, but the child still is fully formed at the end of the first trimester, which is week 14.

I was thinking of 9 months as when the next (regular) period would have happened but you find out it doesn't, then, probably? I think that's what they mean by 9 months. I know it starts at conception so there's those couple of weeks. Sorry. It's still before the halfway point.

 

And like I said, ~2-3 months is about when it actually starts looking like a small baby, instead of the embryo which looks incredibly similar for all invertebrates

[TikindiDragon]

Well... To an extent, but seriously people judged people all the time in the bible. There's a fricken book called judges after all!

Yes, and it's one of the 'historical' books of the Old Testament that chronicles the time when God set Judges over the Hebrew peoples to lead them in the ways of righteousness. It's not about individuals passing judgement on each other

With regards human judging any Christian should pay attention to the words of Christ on the matter:

 

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you ibe the first to throw a stone at her."

And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.

But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.

Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

Notice the common theme here. No man is without sin, and he should tend to his own affairs before condeming others.

 

Not precisely on topic, but relevant given the comment I'm replying to.

 

Edit: Too many blank spaces.

Edited January 9, 2014 by TikindiDragon

[Kith]

Sorry, fuzz. Would've mentioned those, but I thought whitebaron had said that apart from those who can't have sex at all, there weren't issues when it came to that.

[whitebaron]

whitebaron - are you a doctor ? If not - I really wouldn't state so many things - like there being no-one who actually CANNOT have intercourse - as fact. It is not fact. There are people who physically can't, not just on account of a size discrepancy - and the way they discover this is when they first try to have sex.

i hate quoting myself, but here it is:

 

actually, thats a myth. Unless you have a condition that prevents sex with everyone, theres no such thing

[Fuzzbucket]

Fair cop - but many of your posts since have suggested that you think otherwise.

 

It is also not the case (you did not say it was, before you think I said you did !) that all women can give birth through the vagina (and therefore it must be large enough to accommodate a penis) by the way - increasingly our hips and pelvises are becoming narrower, and the rate of pubic dislocation (Diastasis symphysis pubis) is rising. Caesareans are not only rising in number among woman too posh to push !

[Lila]

Sexual compatibility is more than physical -- if you genuinely do not enjoy partaking in activities with your partner at ALL, and that causes tension, then why should you have to go through a divorce because you waited until marriage? I'm not saying that relationships should depend on sex, but if it's not something you're able to move past, you shouldn't have to be so distraught about it.

[Htt71]

This is entirely true. And like I've said before, the reason why sex before marriage isn't so bad in my eyes. (generally comparing myself to hardcore Christians) Though it should be about feeling and loving the other person... sex is part of love and also a natural thing. (Just be old enough to do it!)

 

Also, I think we're off topic again lol...

[Lila]

I believe a lot of arguments against abortion rights and BC rights imply that the woman/man lack accountability for their actions, and that we're losing accountability as a society (I don't agree with this at all, but that's what I've observed). What do you guys think of that?

[Htt71]

To an extent I believe this is true, more and more he generations of people has slowly been cradled into false senses of security, accountability, and almost all are shielded from reality. I say this because I see more people (teens) not giving a flying and jerking off during school, then ending up on the streets. But oh no, mommy and daddy said this wouldn't happen no matter what... Oh God, this generation. Nobody seems to be able to be held accountable, there's always an excuse or a cop-out and I'm tired of it! I just am!

 

Yes, also, a lot of arguments against abortion do say that accountability is an issue... and it is, to an extent. People are now more apt to not take into account things that were their fault in a ton of cases, including sex and abortion.

 

Who would've guessed? If you have sex, you might get a child. T_T

 

I mean God forbid that you actually be held responsible for anything in this day and age, but seriously people. Get a grip!

 

Thanks for putting up with this rant.

 

-Vinn

[Obscure_Trash]

Who would've guessed? If you have sex, you might get a child. T_T

 

I mean God forbid that you actually be held responsible for anything in this day and age, but seriously people. Get a grip!

Hence taking a responsibility and getting an abortion if that's what you need.

 

People keep ranting about "oh you had sex! You got pregnant! How stupid! *insert gendered slur here*" but there are plenty of reasons people end up pregnant and end up wanting an abortion. And it's not because they're stupid s. =\ Which actually goes back to my earlier question to you, Htt71.

 

Okay, thought experiment. Why do you think pregnant people might want or get or need an abortion? Please, please, please put some thought into this before answering. Really try and think - give me at least one answer.

 

~

 

I say this because I see more people (teens) not giving a flying  and jerking off during school, then ending up on the streets. But oh no, mommy and daddy said this wouldn't happen no matter what... Oh God, this generation. Nobody seems to be able to be held accountable, there's always an excuse or a cop-out and I'm tired of it! I just am!

 

This should really be more of a discussion of the economy and how generation Y is being screwed over by everyone. But since it's not much related to abortion, I won't get into it here. Perhaps I'll bump up the capitalism topic with some thoughts regarding this mindset.

[High Lord November]

To an extent I believe this is true, more and more he generations of people has slowly been cradled into false senses of security, accountability, and almost all are shielded from reality. I say this because I see more people (teens) not giving a flying and jerking off during school, then ending up on the streets. But oh no, mommy and daddy said this wouldn't happen no matter what... Oh God, this generation. Nobody seems to be able to be held accountable, there's always an excuse or a cop-out and I'm tired of it! I just am!

 

Yes, also, a lot of arguments against abortion do say that accountability is an issue... and it is, to an extent. People are now more apt to not take into account things that were their fault in a ton of cases, including sex and abortion.

 

Who would've guessed? If you have sex, you might get a child. T_T

 

I mean God forbid that you actually be held responsible for anything in this day and age, but seriously people. Get a grip!

 

Thanks for putting up with this rant.

 

-Vinn

Or it's because we aren't being taught the things we need to know in today's economy and society and then at the age of 18 we're all of the sudden expected to know things we don't. Don't blame us when you're the teachers.

 

This also directly applies to sex. It is a hard fact that better sex ed and access to birth control etc. drastically reduces abortions because people are more aware of what happens with sex and how to avoid getting pregnant. But because certain groups of people think that talking about sex will encourage it, they want to shut down areas like Planned Parenthood (I can't get this at all. PLANNED Parenthood. PLANNING your parenthood when you're ready. That's a GOOD thing) and birth control. Society in general is also very taboo about sex.

 

 

Having sex isn't irresponsible. It's completely natural. What is completely and utterly irresponsible are that adults and society in general doesn't want to teach kids the consequences of what they're doing. That mentality is the irresponsible part, not the teens and adults having sex.

 

Having an abortion is taking responsibility for something that you cannot handle, whether it's because of money, not wanting to go through pregnancy, a hate or inability to take care of children, whatever, doesn't matter. Care to explain why having an abortion is irresponsible?

 

Let me ask you this. Would you call be irresponsible if I canceled a project I realized I couldn't handle and/or because I have too much on my plate? I'm too busy and I can't make time for the new project? I don't have enough money to see it through? No? Would continuing a project that I know I can't handle be irresponsible? Would continuing a project that I know will cause me to become extremely depressed, or completely drain my money, be irresponsible? Yes? That's what an abortion is. That is 100% exactly what an abortion is. Taking responsibility for something I can't handle.

Edited January 10, 2014 by High Lord November

[sparkle10184]

Sometimes an abortion is the responsible decision. Responsible for the child and mother.

There are actually women who become pregnant and don't want the baby, who aren't going to die during birth, but really can't cope with it. You stated previously that you understand if it's about life or death, but other minor reasons for getting an abortion are irresponsible and bad. But just because a woman wants an abortion even though she isn't going to necessarily die doesn't automatically make her stupid or irresponsible. Death isn't the only valid reason to abort. If I became pregnant I would most likely abort even if I wasn't at extreme risk of death. I don't want to ever give birth (I plan to adopt someday) and I don't think I would be able to handle it. Between the pain and the stress I would probably end up in a mental hospital, to be honest. That would completely ruin my life, my life that I value over the 'life' of a fetus. That doesn't mean I'm not going to ever have sex just because I 'might' end up pregnant. I would use BC and take responsible measures to ensure my safety. Having sex when I don't want to get pregnant doesn't make me "bad" or "irresponsible".

[Syaoransbear]

Why don't they make sense to you?

Syaoransbear effectively stated that men are the only ones guilty if there is a baby, which is absolutely not true.

 

 

Men are not alone responsible for what happens. Yes, there are (rare!) cases where only the man is responsible for the pregnancy, but most of the time it is not like that, as much as many women would like to make for that case.

 

 

 

As for the opinion stuff: Treating men in such discussions differently, or ignoring them altogether, is hard sexism. But its obviously ok, if its in that direction, and all the evil rage if its in the opposite direction.

No I didn't. I stated a fact. Males impregnate females. It's your own problem if you came to the ridiculous conclusion that somehow a male injects a female with both an egg and sperm.

 

And I don't treat men differently in discussion, I simply get pissed off when a man tries to take away my rights because he wants me to be an incubator for his stupid baby.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[High Lord November]

Men are not alone responsible for what happens. Yes, there are (rare!) cases where only the man is responsible for the pregnancy, but most of the time it is not like that, as much as many women would like to make for that case.

 

 

 

As for the opinion stuff: Treating men in such discussions differently, or ignoring them altogether, is hard sexism. But its obviously ok, if its in that direction, and all the evil rage if its in the opposite direction.

 

It isn't sexism. You aren't stuck with the consequences. We are. You cannot have a child. We can. Therefore, our opinion, when put in practice, should really be weighed much more. This isn't something where it applies to us rather equally. This applies to almost 100% to women, 0% to men. So if you're going to go ahead and ignore why we would actually want an abortion, and the consequences of pregnancy and birthing, and force us to deciding between being stuck with a child or forcing it into the horrible adoption system, and turn us into incubators, then yes, we are going to ignore you and weight your opinion less, because this situation can never ever apply to you and therefore you aren't affected in it in the same way and do not have the same views compared to if you could carry a child.

 

tl;dr I'm not weighing your opinion less because you are a guy. I am weighing it less because you are unable to have a child and cannot be stuck with the consequences of being pregnant. It just so happens that that applies to all men. If you could have a child, then yes, because you would be affected by what you're preaching, your opinion would be listened to. You can't, so it's weighed less. It isn't automatically sexism because it's against a particular sex. This is a biological fact that applies to everyone.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2014 by High Lord November

[Syaoransbear]

tl;dr I'm not weighing your opinion less because you are a guy. I am weighing it less because you are unable to have a child and cannot be stuck with the consequences of being pregnant. It just so happens that that applies to all men.

Exactly. I'd be just as pissed off if a woman who was unable to have children was trying to get abortion banned as I would if a man was doing it. And it's actually ridiculously common for infertile women to be pro-birth, which is infuriating.

[HeatherMarie]

To an extent I believe this is true, more and more he generations of people has slowly been cradled into false senses of security, accountability, and almost all are shielded from reality. I say this because I see more people (teens) not giving a flying and jerking off during school, then ending up on the streets. But oh no, mommy and daddy said this wouldn't happen no matter what... Oh God, this generation. Nobody seems to be able to be held accountable, there's always an excuse or a cop-out and I'm tired of it! I just am!

 

Yes, also, a lot of arguments against abortion do say that accountability is an issue... and it is, to an extent. People are now more apt to not take into account things that were their fault in a ton of cases, including sex and abortion.

 

Who would've guessed? If you have sex, you might get a child. T_T

 

I mean God forbid that you actually be held responsible for anything in this day and age, but seriously people. Get a grip!

 

Thanks for putting up with this rant.

 

-Vinn

And who is responsible for teens having false sense of security, lack of accountability, not understanding possible consequences (esp. regarding sex)? Who is responsible for them not learning about that? ADULTS. Teachers, parents, society.

 

A teen who has always been told that grades don't matter *of course* won't put in the effort, because of what they've been *taught*.

 

A teen who's *never* been told what sex really is, been educated about proper protection, fail rates, and consequences like STDs and pregnancy, WILL have sex genuinely not understanding that "just once" can lead to pregnancy.

 

Yes, of course people should be held accountable, *if* they've been educated correctly. After all, we'd never beat a kid for not knowing the alphabet if no one ever *taught* it to him, correct?

 

So why would we force a painful, possibly fatal pregnancy on a young woman who's never been taught the consequences of sex?

 

And yes I know that not all abortions are because of that, but you are talking about accountability, and I am saying it's not always *them* who need to be held accountable.

[High Lord November]

Exactly. I'd be just as pissed off if a woman who was unable to have children was trying to get abortion banned as I would if a man was doing it. And it's actually ridiculously common for infertile women to be pro-birth, which is infuriating.

Forgot to add that, but yes, this as well.

 

 

[KageSora]

Who would've guessed? If you have sex, you might get a child.

Certainly not the people who are so uneducated about sex and potential outcomes that they literally do not know that pregnancy results from having sex--often as a result of their highly religious communities refusing to discuss sex with kids because it's a taboo subject.

 

While it's common sense to anybody who's been given decent sex ed... Not everybody was taught that sex can result in pregnancy. That is a very sad, disturbing fact. We're not born knowing that pregnancy results from sex--that's something we have to be taught. And too many people aren't taught that.

[whitebaron]

It isn't sexism. You aren't stuck with the consequences. We are. You cannot have a child. We can. Therefore, our opinion, when put in and therefore you aren't affected in it in the same way and do not have the same views compared to if you could carry a child.

 

excuse me? I already have a child. And of course, as a responsible person, you are stuck with the consequences.

 

I might not have suffered some of the adverse effects, but I also did not get to feel the positives. Also, in the long term picture, the 9 months pregnancy are a small commitment, i'm really at a loss of words what to answer to tha as it is even worse sexism than the initial statement.

 

 

Did it EVER occur to you that foul days of your wife might be foul days for the man too? That bad health is additional stress, too? That morning sickness someone needs to clean who's a little healthier?

 

So please spare me that ridiculous double standard. Its silly and sexist, to ignore the father.

[LascielsShadow]

excuse me? I already have a child. And of course, as a responsible person, you are stuck with the consequences.

 

I might not have suffered some of the adverse effects, but I also did not get to feel the positives. Also, in the long term picture, the 9 months pregnancy are a small commitment, i'm really at a loss of words what to answer to tha as it is even worse sexism than the initial statement.

 

 

Did it EVER occur to you that foul days of your wife might be foul days for the man too? That bad health is additional stress, too? That morning sickness someone needs to clean who's a little healthier?

 

So please spare me that ridiculous double standard. Its silly and sexist, to ignore the father.

And are the permanent changes to the body and possible irreversible damage also a"small commitment"? Is the possible psychological/emotional damage a "small commitment"? Is lifelong regret over having given birth to and/or given up for adoption an unwanted child a "small commitment"? You do not get to call "OMG SEXISM" for having it pointed out to you that you do not and cannot have the same opinions as a woman on certain subjects because you cannot physically experience the things they can. I'm a woman. I don't get to speak to men's experiences or about what the y should do in regards to their health as if I have the same authority/knowledge/experience as they do, because I am not a man.

 

Having to clean up after/assist your pregnant wife is not equal to actually being the person with another human being developing inside you. Cleaning up vomit or sticking cold compresses on someone's head =/= suffering from morning sickness or preeclampsia or gestational diabetes. Trust me, as hard as you think you have it, the one who's actually pregnant has it harder. You're not the one having nutrients leached from your body on a daily basis.

 

You can say it's sexist all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Edited January 10, 2014 by LascielsShadow