Abortion

[DigitalGarden]

You've also failed to consider, in your cases to accept abortion, medical problems. There are simply some defects not compatible with life or defects that would significantly reduce quality of life, or even defects that are invariably fatal even if the fetus makes it to birth. It is a cruel and unusual punishment to have women birth children that are going to die anyway, and it is equally cruel and unusual to force a fetus to be born into a world where it will suffer for a time and die anyway. There are a whole host of things that can go wrong between fertilization and birth medically, from fatal defects to failure to implant in the correct area, and all of these have to be considered.

Nope, it's point b., you just expanded it into more words.

 

Meh I didn't want to contribute to this discussion more than one-two posts to avoid complete offtopic as a response to EEF's post. I said what I wanted to say, thanks.

[ShinyTomato]

First of all, good for you! Too bad a lot of people basically get "IF U HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE, U GET AIDS AND GO TO HELL" as their "sex ed".

 

If even that. At least two of the girls I've seen visit the women's health center where I volunteer had "sex ed" that taught them solely about their period, without a single mention of sex.

 

Then Devil trolled humans what led them to who we are now and all that "suffering through life".

 

As a Jew, I just have to headdesk here. Everyone is so mean to HaSatan in Christianity. It's like vomiting on the trashman. He's just doing the job G-d asked him to do.

 

a sickness that is going to lead the baby and/or mother to death

 

Does this include suicide?

 

And what if they can't afford to give birth? Not even touching the cost for adoption in that.

[DigitalGarden]

As a Jew, I just have to headdesk here. Everyone is so mean to HaSatan in Christianity. It's like vomiting on the trashman. He's just doing the job G-d asked him to do.

 

 

 

Does this include suicide?

 

1. I don't think a headdesk was necessary. I respect your interpretation though.

2. I see suicidal thoughts as a kind of mental sickness.

 

Guys, leave me alone already, I'm tired of force-replying and I feel everyone jumping on me with rage because I have a different opinion than pretty much said everyone.

[edwardelricfreak]

You restricted your list in a way that makes it hard to interpret. The way it's worded makes it seem specifically limited yet it's so vague at the same time. I think most people took it as the restricted, literal sense of what you wrote, but by your responses you meant them to be vague and general.

[DigitalGarden]

You restricted your list in a way that makes it hard to interpret. The way it's worded makes it seem specifically limited yet it's so vague at the same time. I think most people took it as the restricted, literal sense of what you wrote, but by your responses you meant them to be vague and general.

I thought some things were quite obvious and not requiring further talking. I should've stayed away from this thread anyway.

[KageSora]

I thought some things were quite obvious and not requiring further talking. I should've stayed away from this thread anyway.

The problem is, 99% of the time when I see a list like that? The person means 100% what they state, no deviation, and "sickness" doesn't account for mental illness and ONLY counts if it's a physical illness/defect.

 

So, considering I see way more people having a list and sticking to it than people who thought exceptions to their list were obvious... Yeah, there's a reason we point out issues we see with it.

[Fuzzbucket]

1. I don't think a headdesk was necessary. I respect your interpretation though.

2. I see suicidal thoughts as a kind of mental sickness.

 

Guys, leave me alone already, I'm tired of force-replying and I feel everyone jumping on me with rage because I have a different opinion than pretty much said everyone.

The suicidal thoughts are perhaps a mental illness (though in my case it would have been a rational thing to do) but knowing that while you aren't suicidal NOW when you have just discovered the pregnancy, you will be suicidal if you have to carry to term - at that point your are not in any way mentally ill.

 

One woman I know who wanted her children very much succumbed to puerperal psychosis after the second. She is not mentally ill. She would not be mentally ill at the point of being pregnant now, but - well, I know she would have an abortion rather than take the risk of going through that again.

 

The point is - every last case is different. Choice HAS to be the right way. No one of us here has the right to define what is OK and not OK for anyone else.

Edited November 29, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Syaoransbear]

I just can't stand the idea of limiting abortions only to those who have been raped or those who would die from pregnancy because it makes wanting the baby to be born just a punishment for having sex and it doesn't have anything to do with the value of the baby's life as a person. I've yet to hear an argument that says 'it's okay for these people to have abortions and no one else' not stem from a punishment standpoint.

 

When people place restrictions like this, it's obvious it comes from a punishment mentality because the reason they think it's acceptable for rape victims to get abortions is because it wasn't their choice to have sex, so they are exempt from the punishment of having a child. And it's acceptable for those who would die from pregnancy to get abortions because even though society so desperately wants them to be punished, apparently death is too harsh of a punishment.

 

Basically, to me, placing limitations like that on abortion is basically saying we should bring people into existence just to punish their mothers for having them.

 

Did anyone ever think of what might happen if we only allow rape victims and people who would die from pregnancies to get abortions? Lots of false rape accusations sending innocent men to jail, and lots of women trying to make their pregnancies life threatening. Or trying to make the fetuses nonviable.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Syaoransbear

[Cecona]

The way I like to look at it, every pregnancy has a chance of becoming fatal for mother, baby, or both. With that logic in mind coupled with the "only so and so can have abortions" mentality it makes it to where everyone has the option available.

[prairiecrow]

I just can't stand the idea of limiting abortions only to those who have been raped or those who would die from pregnancy because it makes wanting the baby to be born just a punishment for having sex and it doesn't have anything to do with the value of the baby's life as a person.

A POV supported by the observation that many so-called "pro-lifers" (at least in my experience) completely lose interest in the fetus after it's born, and in fact support politicians who want to cut social services programs that make life better for children.

 

IMO if you call yourself "pro-life" and you don't support measures to help mothers and babies who have been successfully born, you're a big fat hypocrite.

Edited November 29, 2013 by prairiecrow

[Fuzzbucket]

you're a big fat hypocrite.

I take exception to the word fat in there I assume you have never seen photos ?

[Brite]

A POV supported by the observation that many so-called "pro-lifers" (at least in my experience) completely lose interest in the fetus after it's born, and in fact support politicians who want to cut social services programs that make life better for children.

 

IMO if you call yourself "pro-life" and you don't support measures to help mothers and babies who have been successfully born, you're a big fat hypocrite.

It's scary, I've SEEN people say "She should be forced to have and raise the baby as punishment, maybe then she'll keep her legs closed!"

 

Even scarier, some of these people are trying to pass bills supporting this.

[Cecona]

my mom is one of those people. I tried to talk to her about it and basically she said if they were raped or having the baby would be deadly they can have abortions but no one else. That the women who simply don't want a baby should have to go through the pregnancy for spreading her legs all over the place. And if she doesn't want to keep it to just put it up for adoption. I asked her about different things, like what if the woman absolutely did not want to have kids or they had an irrational fear of pregnancy and kids. Her response was that they shouldn't be having sex to begin with. It's very sad.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Cecona

[Shienvien]

That the women who simply don't want a baby should have to go through the pregnancy for spreading her legs all over the place.

Has she ever considered what will the "punishment" children go through? Try presenting her with that angle. It is not an easy time growing up knowing that you're just that - something thrown at a person to be as inconvenient and hated as possible so that a lesson would be learned. No more than a rock tied onto someone's back, not wanted, not loved. And probably discarded by the person you were "supposed" to burden, too.

 

The statistics are terrible. Almost every second woman to commit suicide is pregnant, and roughly a third of children given up for state adoption don't even live to adulthood.

[Brite]

Has she ever considered what will the "punishment" children go through? Try presenting her with that angle. It is not an easy time growing up knowing that you're just that - something thrown at a person to be as inconvenient and hated as possible so that a lesson would be learned. No more than a rock tied onto someone's back, not wanted, not loved. And probably discarded by the person you were "supposed" to burden, too.

 

The statistics are terrible. Almost every second woman to commit suicide is pregnant, and roughly a third of children given up for state adoption don't even live to adulthood.

Pro-birthers don't care about ANY of them, which what makes them pro-birth and not life. Force birther, and cold-hearted for seeing the mother suffer as an amusement just because she was doing what humans have done since existence.

[CatCreature]

my mom is one of those people. I tried to talk to her about it and basically she said if they were raped or having the baby would be deadly they can have abortions but no one else. That the women who simply don't want a baby should have to go through the pregnancy for spreading her legs all over the place. And if she doesn't want to keep it to just put it up for adoption. I asked her about different things, like what if the woman absolutely did not want to have kids or they had an irrational fear of pregnancy and kids. Her response was that they shouldn't be having sex to begin with. It's very sad.

Did she say anything about the guy who made said woman pregnant?

[brairtrainer]

Did she say anything about the guy who made said woman pregnant?

I'm going to second catcreatures comment, at least my mom insists that the father if known pay child support as a requirement because it takes two to tango.

[Cecona]

When it comes to unwanted pregnancies people focus more on the mother than the father. I don't think people care- the guy could run off and disappear to avoid the whole thing because he can. And people wouldn't care because apparently it's perfectly fine for a guy to sleep around, people call him a stud or a ladies man. If a woman were to do the same however suddenly she's a and a * and deserves punishment.

[Brite]

When it comes to unwanted pregnancies people focus more on the mother than the father. I don't think people care- the guy could run off and disappear to avoid the whole thing because he can. And people wouldn't care because apparently it's perfectly fine for a guy to sleep around, people call him a stud or a ladies man. If a woman were to do the same however suddenly she's a and a * and deserves punishment.

Pretty much this. The blame is all on her, no where is the man mentioned, getting away scot-free.

[Fuzzbucket]

Pretty much this. The blame is all on her, no where is the man mentioned, getting away scot-free.

Isn't it odd that the most FERVENT anti-choice lawmakers are men...

 

No wait - it makes perfect sense

[prairiecrow]

Isn't it odd that the most FERVENT anti-choice lawmakers are men...

 

No wait - it makes perfect sense

Personally I think that if you don't possess a uterus, you have no business sticking your nose into female reproductive policy, because you have no stake in the laws involved.

[Kestra15]

Personally I think that if you don't possess a uterus, you have no business sticking your nose into female reproductive policy, because you have no stake in the laws involved.

...there's an innuendo in there, I'm not sure though...

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd rather a guy like that stuck his nose than...

 

Was that the one, Kestra ?

[Brite]

Yall are silly.

 

And speaking of, prairiecrow, I was watching a youtube vid of a man speaking against abortion and breaking back the case of RoevWade, saying that he was "Remembering the lost little baby that was killed when Roe gained access to have an abortion"

 

Propaganda at it's best, much like The Silent Scream. The crowned abortion propaganda.

[MoonTiger]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the thought of 'what is the definition of alive' yet.