Abortion

[Slaskia]

Related in regards to preventive measures.

 

Women have a 'reproductive duty'

 

I, hate, hate, hate people like this. I'm the one that decides to have kids or not, pal, not you! If I don't want kids, I damn will won't have kids and use every method I know to keep it that way.

 

If your beliefs keep you from doing all of your job, then you shouldn't be doing that job (that or go work for a hospital that supports those beliefs...just don't expect much business from women!).

[crazyflower]

Melissa Pont, 23, said her family practitioner, Dr Joseph Lee, would not renew her pill prescription, instead lecturing her on a baby's right to live and on using the rhythm method, an unreliable family planning technique that involves having sex only at certain times of the month.

 

He doesn't sound like he should be a doctor at all. Menstrual cycles can be unpredictable.

 

 

Lee also does not prescribe condoms, and encourages patients as young as 16 to use the rhythm method.

 

Teen pregnancy might be a girl's "destiny", he said, and it was certainly not as bad as same- sex marriage

 

Just...what?

 

I hope she finds a better doctor that will respect her and her choices.

[HeatherMarie]

....... *headdesks* ..... Just *headdesks*

[hazeh]

"not as bad as same-sex marriage"

 

...

oh sure

what makes someone terribly upset and possibly life threatening is definitely not as bad as something that makes two people very happy and harmless

[Kelkelen]

I remember the first time I went to Stockholm in the 60s, I was amazed to see a coin-op Durex machine on the street - just - THERE, on a random wall ! SO sensible. (I wanted to buy a packet, as they had an option for "tartan" - but I didn't need them then and I was broke...)

Tartan?? Oh *man.* That sounds like it might be a bestseller in Scotland!

 

Re: the above... teen pregnancy might be a girl's "destiny?" What? As if it's completely out of her hands whether or not she'll get pregnant? Or as if it *should* be out of her hands? UGH.

[Brite]

They BELIEVE that a woman has bodily autonomy and ought to be able to exercise that by clearing an unwanted human offspring out of her womb. Some people support open access to abortion because they BELIEVE people have a right to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. Your beliefs have EVERYTHING to do with the sort of laws you support. You can't say that beliefs have nothing to do with laws, and then turn around and tell me you believe the law should recognize a woman's "right" to choose, because such a statement is based on your beliefs. What is the law based on if not beliefs in regards to rights, justice, etc?

 

It violates her body if she doesn't want to carry. And having a law that forces her to carry is even worse. You are not a woman so you won't understand pregnancy, but I'm sure you've heard this before so I'll put it in similar terms. Actions=Consequence? I'll use that argument too. Imagine laying in a hospital bed after a car accident when you were driving. You're alright but the other person is in critical condition and doctors are removing blood from you to support the unconscience person. You refuse to continue the treatment any further but the doctors say "They're an innocent person too who deserves life!" so you're forced to continue to give blood to that person, even though the doctors said it may kill you, but you're forced to continue anyways. You don't know the other person, you don't know their life or what they'll do when/if they survive, all you know is that you have to keep supporting them until they come to.

 

Don't like that idea? Because it's just like pregnancy. Think about it.

Edited September 10, 2013 by GhostChilli

[Htt71]

The situation of the matter, although I understand your point and it IS valid, is abortion. Getting into a situation like a car crash is, yes, somewhat similar with the blood and all, but there is a certain emotional level of it too that being a man I guess I just can't comprehend. Potentially killing someone you don't know, or someone you do know. Actually, who is your offspring. I just can't understand how anyone, given any circumstance could give in. I guess I'm just saying, abortion is nothing to debate lightly, what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one? Well you'd be the cause of another dead baby joke, but witty comments aside, you wouldn't be here to debate this. We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger. You just eliminated that chance, and it could've happened to you. Anyone of us could've been aborted, and dear God I love life because I know that, but we weren't. So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

[Rosedamai]

The situation of the matter, although I understand your point and it IS valid, is abortion. Getting into a situation like a car crash is, yes, somewhat similar with the blood and all, but there is a certain emotional level of it too that being a man I guess I just can't comprehend. Potentially killing someone you don't know, or someone you do know. Actually, who is your offspring. I just can't understand how anyone, given any circumstance could give in. I guess I'm just saying, abortion is nothing to debate lightly, what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one? Well you'd be the cause of another dead baby joke, but witty comments aside, you wouldn't be here to debate this. We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger. You just eliminated that chance, and it could've happened to you. Anyone of us could've been aborted, and dear God I love life because I know that, but we weren't. So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

If I was aborted, I would have been a friggin clump of cells that dont have anyrecognition of what I am so eh it doesn't matter. Baby isnt fetus. You arent a fetus.

[Htt71]

Being a man, you are right, we can't really know what CHILDBIRTH/CHILD-CARRYING islike, but other situations, much like th one I replied to can happen. And while we don't fully understand it all of us have opinions, right? No matter if you think it's okay or not okay. It's still wrong right? Or have some people desensitized themselves so much they can think of the death of an unborn infant and shrug it off with no emotional toll, however slight? I don't believe that person exists. So what we are dealing with here is really the lesser of one evil. Yea, one evil. Abortion, yes or no? Easy right? Just something to think about.

[Cecona]

The situation of the matter, although I understand your point and it IS valid, is abortion. Getting into a situation like a car crash is, yes, somewhat similar with the blood and all, but there is a certain emotional level of it too that being a man I guess I just can't comprehend. Potentially killing someone you don't know, or someone you do know. Actually, who is your offspring. I just can't understand how anyone, given any circumstance could give in. I guess I'm just saying, abortion is nothing to debate lightly, what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one? Well you'd be the cause of another dead baby joke, but witty comments aside, you wouldn't be here to debate this. We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger. You just eliminated that chance, and it could've happened to you. Anyone of us could've been aborted, and dear God I love life because I know that, but we weren't. So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

 

Being a man, you are right, we can't really know what CHILDBIRTH/CHILD-CARRYING islike, but other situations, much like th one I replied to can happen. And while we don't fully understand it all of us have opinions, right? No matter if you think it's okay or not okay. It's still wrong right? Or have some people desensitized themselves so much they can think of the death of an unborn infant and shrug it off with no emotional toll, however slight? I don't believe that person exists. So what we are dealing with here is really the lesser of one evil. Yea, one evil. Abortion, yes or no? Easy right? Just something to think about.

It's hard to feel for a small gathering of cells if you don't want it, and usually mothers that are forced to keep a pregnancy they don't want end up resenting the child and not caring for it properly. It comes with a lot of stress and emotional/mental anguish for a woman to carry something she doesn't want to term, and if a woman does not want to be pregnant sometimes even laws won't stop them. How would you feel if you were attacked, and after going to the doctor you were told there was a parasitic growth inside you, but the law said it couldn't be removed, and you had to live with it inside you, draining you of nutrients until it's so big it forces itself through an opening the size of a lemon. That is a better analogy for an unwanted pregnancy. The reason we were not aborted is not because it was illegal, but because our parents wanted us. If the parents want the child they keep it, if they don't they should be able to have the option to terminate, it's as simple as that.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Cecona

[Htt71]

Excuse me for continuing what most believe to be a finished discussion here, but yes while your point is valid and I agree 100%... There is always the other side of course. Always going to be someone saying it deserves to live, because everything deserves at least a chance before you terminate its developing life. Much like in unwind this concept is usually thrown out, but would it really be that bad? There obviously be benefits and disadvantages, but it could work. I've always liked this idea, being a pacifist pro-life guy, but I now need to shut up for a minute and think. Now I'm just ranting over a book topic that is irrelevant to a degree. So I digress until I can think of a more valid point. Thanks for putting ip with this, and if you found any slightly coherent oughts here and would like to respond hit me back on the thread...

[Cecona]

Excuse me for continuing what most believe to be a finished discussion here, but yes while your point is valid and I agree 100%... There is always the other side of course. Always going to be someone saying it deserves to live, because everything deserves at least a chance before you terminate its developing life. Much like in unwind this concept is usually thrown out, but would it really be that bad? There obviously be benefits and disadvantages, but it could work. I've always liked this idea, being a pacifist pro-life guy, but I now need to shut up for a minute and think. Now I'm just ranting over a book topic that is irrelevant to a degree. So I digress until I can think of a more valid point. Thanks for putting ip with this, and if you found any slightly coherent oughts here and would like to respond hit me back on the thread...

Something that has no free will, no thought process, no awareness, not even officially a human being and could just as easily end up becoming a giant clump of calcium should not be given rights before the living breathing thinking woman carrying it. If she does not want it do not force her to keep it.

[Htt71]

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

[Cecona]

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying. When I say clump of calcium I mean the fetus has died and calcified into a solid mass. And abortion isn't legal for all terms. After a certain amount of time the fetus does become a baby and then it's too late for the abortion. I agree that after a certain point abortion is bad, but that's when it's actually a baby not a fetus. And the burden wouldn't be just the 40 weeks +labor, it would be a life long burden. A constant reminder of a mistake the woman made, or an event she wish had never happened to her. She could be unfit to be a mother, too young or too poor, or is just in a bad situation. Bringing a baby into that when it's not wanted would be a whole new list of problems. You can't put an unborn fetus's rights before that of the woman. You just can't.

 

From reading your post I get the idea you don't actually know much about pregnancy and abortion.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Cecona

[Htt71]

I do, however I simply wanted to be very brief in my descriptions which caused them to be off by a bit. While we may disagree on this I believe you have a good point and I hope we can both look at this situiations from eachother's perspectives and understand a bit on what goes on in the other side's minds.

[7Deadly$ins]

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

In most places, abortions can only be done for medical reasons in the third trimester.

[Obscure_Trash]

Being a man, you are right, we can't really know what CHILDBIRTH/CHILD-CARRYING islike, but other situations, much like th one I replied to can happen. And while we don't fully understand it all of us have opinions, right? No matter if you think it's okay or not okay. It's still wrong right? Or have some people desensitized themselves so much they can think of the death of an unborn infant and shrug it off with no emotional toll, however slight? I don't believe that person exists. So what we are dealing with here is really the lesser of one evil. Yea, one evil. Abortion, yes or no? Easy right? Just something to think about.

Please don't act like people who get abortions are heartless or murderers. We have users here on this forum who have had an abortion/s.

 

To be quite honest, what in the world does a fetus being a human fetus have anything at all to do with this? The point is that I am a person. Other born, sentient peoples who can get pregnant are also persons.

 

You cannot take organs from a dead body without their prior legal permission. You can't use bodies for science without their prior legal permission. You can't just take blood or bone marrow or whatever from living people without their permission. It doesn't matter if they are the only person that could save this other person. You may not violate their body. You need their consent and their permission to use their body to save another life.

 

So why is it bodily autonomy is only a question when we are dealing with people who can get pregnant, people typically thought of as women by the cismales making these oppressive laws?

 

Nobody is allowed to use my body without permission. This includes the zygote/embryo/fetus that could be growing in me.

 

If you have to think of abortion as evil, it is a "necessary evil" yes.

 

People denied abortions are less likely to leave abusive relationships.

People denied abortions are more likely to fall into poverty due to a variety of reasons.

People may be in danger from pregnancy. Pregnancy in and of itself is dangerous and changes your body permanently in many ways.

People may have a phobia of pregnancy.

 

I don't want to go through pregnancy nor parenthood, so abortion would be my only choice if I got pregnant.

[TikindiDragon]

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

Eh, not so much. While, yes, abortion *can* happen at any stage of the pregnancy as a general rule *elective* abortions are not legal beyond a certain cutoff point (usually between 20 and 24 weeks) which is the stage at which the fetus is unlikely to become anything other than a human. The vast majority happen before 12 weeks. It's not like women are pregnant for 6 months and then suddenly decide that actually no, they don't want a child.

 

The only abortions that happen after the cut-off point are those of very much wanted babies that the mother is having to abort for medical reasons - either the fetus has such bad developmental disorders that it's life outside the womb would be incredibly short and full of pain, or to save the life of the mother.

 

As to understanding what goes on in the other side's mind - I can see that you regard an embryo as a human individual from the moment the cells first fuse. And, from that starting point, I can see how you get to fetus=child. And if the two *are* the same then, yes, I can see why you would be horrified by the concept of abrtion.

 

I hope you can see that, for many of us, the fact that there is no brain means that a fetus cannot be put on the same level as a child. It cannot be an individual, because it has no current capacity to be one.

 

None of us here would argue in support of elective late-term abortions. We *do* think they need to be available in situations where it is nesecary to save the mother's life, but none of us are suggesting that something which is capable of surviving outside the womb should be able to be terminated at will. What we are very much in support of is a woman's right to self determination - and just as no adult would be allowed to use a woman's body against her will to keep itself alive, we feel that a fetus should not be allowed to do so either.

 

There are several big points in any abortion debate, that do need to be adressed:

 

1) When does a fetus become a person?

2) Does any person have the right to use another's body, against that persons will, to keep themselves alive?

3) Finally the tricky one - *why* would you (generic you) wish to see abortion outlawed?

- If it is because you view abortion as murder, are you in support of abortion in cases of incest/rape? If so, why is murder acceptable under some circumstances but not others?

- If it is because you think the woman need to 'take responsibility' for her actions; do you realise this is a form of ' shaming'? Why would you feel your morals had to apply to everyone? Do you realise that there are many married women having abortions?

 

The 3rd of those point is an attempt to have people look at the logical inconsistancies of their own arguments. We have found, for example, that many people who would like to see abortion outlawed would also like to see access to contraception restricted. If these people are viewing abortion as murder, then it is logically inconsistant not to support something that is proven to lower abortion rates (easy access to contraception). If it is because they are making a moral judgement about women having sex, then that is something that needs to be addressed in a different manner.

 

Edit: wow, didn't realise that would be censored, I admit. I'm leaving it in, because I suspect most people will know what I'm getting at, and it makes the point better than trying to find an un-censored alternative.

Edited September 10, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[lightbird]

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

Point is, noone can use another person's body without their consent. Heck, you can't force someone to donate their organs/blood, you can't even use a cadaver, if the person hasn't expressed their wish to donate organs/be used for science, during their life.

So when it comes to the discussion of abortion, the counterarguments are that a woman's rights to her body should be overriden by a life that can't sustain itself and may not even become something self-sustaining or gain consciousness, or do anything else that turns you from a mass of cells into a person.

Feti are capable of feeling pain at the 20th week of development, no sooner than that. You need a somewhat developed BRAIN for that. During the time when elective abortions are performed (up to the 13th week where I live), the fetus has as much sentience as an amoeba.

 

Also, your nail clippings are made or human cells. Tumors are human cells. Should you let them grow untethered?

[Alpha1]

Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it?

 

You can spay-abort, but ya can’t go out killing the neighbor’s cat!

 

You cannot take organs from a dead body without their prior legal permission.

 

Opt-out is better than opt-in.

 

You can't use bodies for science without their prior legal permission. You can't just take blood or bone marrow or whatever from living people without their permission. It doesn't matter if they are the only person that could save this other person. You may not violate their body. You need their consent and their permission to use their body to save another life.

 

Yet they took away my foreskin.

 

So why is it bodily autonomy is only a question when we are dealing with people who can get pregnant, people typically thought of as women by the cismales making these oppressive laws?

 

Is it better if the conservative positions were filled by the Michelle Bachmann’s and the Sarah Palin’s of the world?

 

Education trumps gender differences.

 

 

 

The only abortions that happen after the cut-off point are those of very much wanted babies that the mother is having to abort for medical reasons - either the fetus has such bad developmental disorders that it's life outside the womb would be incredibly short and full of pain, or to save the life of the mother.

 

Edit: Just realized you were referring to something Htt71 said on legal abortions. Oops.

 

None of us here would argue in support of elective late-term abortions.

 

I would.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Alpha1

[Zodivan]

...what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one?

 

We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger.

 

So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

Then hopefully my mother would have gone to a clinic, seen a doctor, and gotten the medical procedure she wanted without long waiting periods, emotional manipulation from protestors, or a huge bill she couldn't pay.

 

You know what else is the cause of a huge loss of potentially amazing world-changing people? Miscarriage. Most pregnancies end before the woman even realizes she's pregnant.

 

Why are you so worried about other people's pregnancies when you yourself caused the death of millions of your potential siblings? When sperm and egg combined to make your DNA it sealed off the potential life of every other sperm. Every month your mother spent pregnant was the end of even more potential lives.

[Fuzzbucket]

Not to mention the HUGE number of potential babies lost through male masturbation....

[KageSora]

Potentially killing someone you don't know, or someone you do know. Actually, who is your offspring. I just can't understand how anyone, given any circumstance could give in. I guess I'm just saying, abortion is nothing to debate lightly, what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one? Well you'd be the cause of another dead baby joke, but witty comments aside, you wouldn't be here to debate this. We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger. You just eliminated that chance, and it could've happened to you. Anyone of us could've been aborted, and dear God I love life because I know that, but we weren't. So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

Orrrr.... We could lose the next Hitler. Just sayin'

 

Besides, I've a list of people I know I who are pretty much only alive/unharmed because I don't much fancy jail time. Why would offing a bunch of cells that only ended up in my body because I was raped be any different to me? (There's no way I'd end up pregnant without being raped, so...)

 

And, actually, if I had been aborted? I wouldn't actually care. Since, y'know, I would have been prevented from existing at a level that was capable of caring. And, in fact, I wouldn't be suffering the way I do now with no real end in sight! And my current parents wouldn't have a broken mess of a kid they can't and don't even try (in my mom's case) to understand to deal with. Sounds like a win-win to me right about now.

 

Besides, not everybody bonds with their "offspring". It's just how it is.

[Brite]

Not to mention the HUGE number of potential babies lost through male masturbation....

Lul, life doesn't begin AT conception, it begins waay before. The eggs and sperm cells are life. But don't go masturbating or having those murderous menstrual cycles! It's destroying the life!!

[vivo]

Well, earth is overpopulated anyway.. We need less mouths to feed, not more.