Abortion

[Destiny Arts]

Well, earth is overpopulated anyway.. We need less mouths to feed, not more.

How is the earth overpopulated? I don't see how abortions will help with that.

[Cecona]

How is the earth overpopulated? I don't see how abortions will help with that.

The earth has billions of people and counting, certain countries are running low on resources because they are being used up quicker than they can be replenished- if they can be replenished at all. There is major over crowding and countless people being forced to live without the essentials. Abortion would not solve the problem, but at least it means there would be less unwanted children born into a broken system. It means less people having to drain what the earth has left to give.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Cecona

[vivo]

The earth has billions of people and counting, certain countries are running low on resources because they are being used up quicker than they can be replenished- if they can be replenished at all. There is major over crowding and countless people being forced to live without the essentials. Abortion would not solve the problem, but at least it means there would be less unwanted children born into a broken system. It means less people having to drain what the earth has left to give.

Pretty much. I personally believe parenthood should be planned in all cases. No, abortions won't solve the problem, education will. But having unwanted babies at a very young age doesn't help with the latter either.

[Infinis]

How is the earth overpopulated? I don't see how abortions will help with that.

We have 7 billion people, or close to it, on a planet with limited resources and a population that consistently seeks to waste them rather than recycle them (although some places are better at recycling than others). Some places are rapidly running out room, and cities are a prime example: can't expand outward? Expand up. Another case in point is food shortages, but in some places that's also more significantly tied into waste than an actual shortage.

 

Yes, there is technically a lot more space on the planet. But when you bring up that argument, you have to call into question how much of it is a) habitable for human life in the long term, and b ) how can it support human life (in terms of growing crops, etc) in the long term. And some of the unpopulated places of the world deny both of those (Antarctica, for example, is massive, but the average temperature of its interior is about -70F, and that's far from the only problem with living there; the central interior of Africa and parts of South America are covered with largely inhospitable jungle (that we shouldn't be cutting down because they provide rather useful functions), and the list goes on).

 

Overpopulation is a thing, just not in *all* places. And whether people want to realize it or not, someday we WILL run out of room (unless we can figure out how to terraform the Moon and/or reach Mars and terraform that).

 

~

 

As it relates to abortion, there are facts in the first post about the United States adoption and foster care systems that you should take a look at. A significantly higher number of unwanted children enter the adoption and/or foster system than successfully leave it. And more of those children than you'd want to believe end up with mental problems (including tendencies toward suicide and depression). Is it really a better option to toss a child into a broken system? Some of these kids wish they had never born or that they had been aborted.

 

...what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one?

 

We would lose an intelligent life that could potentially do anything. From being a global peacekeeper to stopping world hunger.

 

So why should we cause death upon someone else? Why?

 

I'd be darn glad my parents were allowed a choice. (I was a surprise baby! )

 

People always focus on the GOOD things they could lose, but no one says anything about the BAD things a potential life could become. It could become a serial murderer, the next Hitler, a thief, a rapist. Do not overlook the bad because of the good. That said, I don't consider a fetus a human until it is past the point where it can't really be anything else. Thus, I wouldn't consider myself wishing death on something I didn't even think was a person yet.

 

And while we don't fully understand it all of us have opinions, right? No matter if you think it's okay or not okay. It's still wrong right? Or have some people desensitized themselves so much they can think of the death of an unborn infant and shrug it off with no emotional toll, however slight? I don't believe that person exists. So what we are dealing with here is really the lesser of one evil. Yea, one evil. Abortion, yes or no? Easy right? Just something to think about.

 

It's only wrong if you believe it's wrong. I don't believe it's wrong, thus, it's fine by me.

 

It's not a desensitization. It's an exercise of choice. And yes, I do exist. And I don't consider it an evil.

 

Your statement does not apply to all situations, abortions can happen at any term if I am correct. So that means that clump of calcium has formed a human, or if not human-like thing, while it may be a burden for a year plus tacking on labor and birth, it is a human and should be treated as such. Would you treat a baby as you treat dirt under your feet? Probably not, so why treat an unborn child like it? It seems pointless to say that a human isn't a human, because even though the composition of what we perceive as a human isn't formed yet it is sill turning into one. Children grow all the time and they're considered human right?

 

Abortions can happen naturally at any point during the pregnancy, IIRC; these are called "spontaneous abortions," which is a term for miscarriage.

 

As for elective abortions, third trimester abortions are generally illegal in most areas unless there is a significant medical reason for it.

 

Calcified masses are not fetuses and they are not human. Just because a tumor has a heartbeat doesn't mean it's a human.

 

The difference, to me, between a "child" and a "fetus" is that the former is definitively human and has begun to develop its own sense of personhood and individuality. A fetus, until it has reached the point where it can no longer become anything but human, is not even really human. It has reasonably few "human" traits early in its life - it resembles things like chicken embryos, and it has a tail still. My definition of a person hinges on life experience in the world.

 

Potentially killing someone you don't know, or someone you do know. Actually, who is your offspring. I just can't understand how anyone, given any circumstance could give in.

 

As a general rule, women who get abortions are actively making that choice, not "giving in" to it.

 

Women don't get abortions because it's fun. None of the methods are really great. Women get abortions because they choose to (or in bad cases are forced into it :c). Many times, these choices are made because the woman does not want or is not ready for a child. But does it really matter the reason or the circumstance? We should be allowed the choice, whether anyone else supports it or not.

 

All the pro-choice side asks of people is to support the right to choice. We aren't asking you to get an abortion, we aren't asking you to like abortions. In fact, some people believe abortion is wrong but still support choice because they realize the value of choice. We are simply asking that you support and respect our right to have a choice.

[Pokemonfan13]

The thing is, babies should be wanted. An unwanted child [a child that would have been aborted if allowed, but wasn't allowed] is seriously less likely to have a happy life than one that was planned, or at least wanted once it happened. If nothing else an unwanted child is likely to be dumped in our less than stellar adoption/foster system.

 

If a woman cannot afford a baby, she should have the right to choose not to have one. If she is not emotionally capable of taking care of a baby/child she should not be forced to do to just because she got pregnant. And if she is 14 years old and her body is not ready to be having a baby yet, and the massive hindrance it would be on her schooling/etc? And the ever popular counter argument, RAPE.

 

True, it is better to stop the pregnancy from ever happening, but that isn't always possible. Many birth control methods are not 100% effective.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[TikindiDragon]

How is the earth overpopulated? I don't see how abortions will help with that.

Please leave the US and go visit somewhere that actually has population density issues. Like Japan. Or England (note I don't say the UK - density in Scotland is around 70 per sq km. In England it's closer to 400 per sq km). Or, if you don't want to leave the US, go check out Massachusetts, Conneticut and Maryland - then imagine that spread across the entire country.

 

There really are places in the world where population pressure is a massive problem. You may not be able to see it on your doorstep - I can. Countryside is vanishing as ever more houses are needing to be built. Schools are massively over-subscribed, and class sizes are rising. Waiting times for doctors appointments are getting longer and longer, as surgeries struggle to cope with the number of people they need to serve. Heck, here in the SE of England the water supply is struggling to cope - our Environment Agency lists our water supplies as being under serious stress. We only need relatively short spells of dry weather for hose-pipe bans to go into force, and for resevoirs to start running dangerously low.

 

The last thing we need in the UK is a baby boom. To be honest, we need tougher controls on immagration too (largely because the country really can't support the kind of population growth it's driving) but that's a different argument.

[Brite]

Please leave the US and go visit somewhere that actually has population density issues. Like Japan. Or England (note I don't say the UK - density in Scotland is around 70 per sq km. In England it's closer to 400 per sq km). Or, if you don't want to leave the US, go check out Massachusetts, Conneticut and Maryland - then imagine that spread across the entire country.

 

There really are places in the world where population pressure is a massive problem. You may not be able to see it on your doorstep - I can. Countryside is vanishing as ever more houses are needing to be built. Schools are massively over-subscribed, and class sizes are rising. Waiting times for doctors appointments are getting longer and longer, as surgeries struggle to cope with the number of people they need to serve. Heck, here in the SE of England the water supply is struggling to cope - our Environment Agency lists our water supplies as being under serious stress. We only need relatively short spells of dry weather for hose-pipe bans to go into force, and for resevoirs to start running dangerously low.

 

The last thing we need in the UK is a baby boom. To be honest, we need tougher controls on immagration too (largely because the country really can't support the kind of population growth it's driving) but that's a different argument.

Pretty much this. Japan is almost spilling into the ocean. You don't see this as over populated?

[siliconrose]

Pretty much this. Japan is almost spilling into the ocean. You don't see this as over populated?

Ironically, the cure (less babies) seems to be turning out nearly as bad as the disease for Japan. Greying societies aren't healthy societies.

[HeatherMarie]

I really wasn't going to come back in here again.

 

But I have to give my personal answer for the "what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one?" question.

 

My parents wanted me *very* badly. I was a "miracle baby" because mom wasn't supposed to be able to have children. HOWEVER, that was *because* she had already had five miscarriages and her doctor was worried getting pregnant again would prove fatal.

 

So yes, my mother spent NINE MONTHS in very VERY real danger, the last 3 months on doctor-ordered bedrest, because her pregnancy was so risky. She was told repeatedly that carrying to term could mean death along the way. Thankfully nothing too terrible happened and we were both fine.

 

But KNOWING that? Knowing that my developing embryo was putting my mother in that much risk?? I can say with absolute certainty that (assuming I somehow 'knew' in some weird cosmic sense) if my mother decided to choose her LIFE over a POTENTIAL LIFE, no I wouldn't be here to post this, but my mom would be safe.

[Cecona]

I really wasn't going to come back in here again.

 

But I have to give my personal answer for the "what if abortion was legal and your parents wanted one?" question.

 

My parents wanted me *very* badly. I was a "miracle baby" because mom wasn't supposed to be able to have children. HOWEVER, that was *because* she had already had five miscarriages and her doctor was worried getting pregnant again would prove fatal.

 

So yes, my mother spent NINE MONTHS in very VERY real danger, the last 3 months on doctor-ordered bedrest, because her pregnancy was so risky. She was told repeatedly that carrying to term could mean death along the way. Thankfully nothing too terrible happened and we were both fine.

 

But KNOWING that? Knowing that my developing embryo was putting my mother in that much risk?? I can say with absolute certainty that (assuming I somehow 'knew' in some weird cosmic sense) if my mother decided to choose her LIFE over a POTENTIAL LIFE, no I wouldn't be here to post this, but my mom would be safe.

While not as severe my mom went through a similar experience, she had a miscarriage and doctors said the chances of her having a full term pregnancy was extremely low. There was also the fact that her uterus has a flap of muscle/flesh at the top that would be unable to support a growing fetus and the placenta would fall off if it were to attach there. She ended up having my sister and I but never got pregnant after that.

 

But if she had decided she didn't want me because she already had my sister she probably would have experienced a lot less stress. I ended up getting the short end of the genetic straw, and unfortunately she cannot deal with me like she can with my sister because I have issues she just doesn't understand. However, like people have said before it's all about choice, and being able to choose what you want to do with your own body. My mother's choice, while things like abortion and adoption are legal, was to keep me.

 

That's all us pro-choice people want, is for everyone to be able to choose what they want to do, and not what other people want them to do.

[Kestra15]

Not to mention the HUGE number of potential babies lost through male masturbation....

I'm doomed.

[Brite]

One thing I don't understand is that pharmacist can deny prescriptions. What does this have to do abortion? Because a friend of mine was raped 3 years ago and after the man was arrested she asked for the morning after pill at an Albertsons but the pharmacist merely looked her in the eye and said "Have you considered adoption?"

 

Not only did it anger me that she was denied but also the fact that she was acting like it was an abortion pill when it is clearly is NOT. I mean wtf it's just to KEEP you from getting pregnant, why was she so against that?? Just to soften the story a bit, she eventually got it some other place but I never went to that Albertsons again and won't say which one it was..

 

Edited: Bad wording..

Edited September 12, 2013 by GhostChilli

[Pokemonfan13]

That is just sick. A pharmacist should supply what is needed, not make moral judgements and deny a morning after pill to a rape victim.

[Brite]

I think there was an uproar once when a K-mart or some place denied the morning after pill to a rape victim. There were protesters. I'll see if I can find it...

[KageSora]

It might be the wide-spread belief that the morning-after pill induces an abortion of an implanted, fertilized egg.

 

That's a wide-held belief by the pro-forced-birth crowd.

[Pokemonfan13]

Even if that was what it does, it is legal and they shouldn't be allowed to withhold it.

[HeatherMarie]

That is just sick. A pharmacist should supply what is needed, not make moral judgements and deny a morning after pill to a rape victim.

THIS omg this.

 

Pharmacists have a *job* to do, and that job is to fill prescriptions, possibly ring up over-the-counter meds, and ask if the person understands the medication instructions (at least that's what they are supposed to do here). They sure as heck should NOT be denying ANYONE medication based on their OWN personal beliefs.

 

I actually ran into something like this back in San Diego years ago when a pharmacist kept asking questions and acting reluctant to fill my prescription for a well-known anti-depressant. She talked a lot about "alternative remedies" and such. .... Just went to another pharmacy.

[KageSora]

Even if that was what it does, it is legal and they shouldn't be allowed to withhold it.

Oh, I totally agree.

 

I'm just saying that might be why some of them don't want to dispense it.

 

Personally, I think that while it's important to respect their beliefs... If it's going to cause problems for another person, they shouldn't be doing that kind of work.

[Kestra15]

One thing I don't understand is that pharmacist can deny prescriptions. What does this have to do abortion? B

Let me clarify this:

 

A pharmacist cannot deny a prescription i.e. a script from a doctor for medication.

 

A pharmacist *can* deny issuing a morning after pill without a prescription, however to do so they must also inform the person of where the nearest pharmacists that can issue said pill, including a pharmacist that works at the same pharmacy and when they will next be on shift.

 

This was introduced as a compromise to those who believe in life at conception as by supplying the pill it would morally place them as being an accessory to murder in the eyes of the pharmacist.

 

And you know what guys? Most medical professionals have to bend and break their own beliefs and moral codes on a regular basis. So forgive us if now and again we're allowed to draw a line for the sake of our sanity.

[Techno_Elf]

My friend made a presentation on abortion, for English class, and she talked about how it was sort of like murder. I mean, you're technically killing a living human being, right? It should count as some sort of murder. And she was showing us pictures of the babies, and it was pretty bloody. :/

[eritated]

My friend made a presentation on abortion, for English class, and she talked about how it was sort of like murder. I mean, you're technically killing a living human being, right? It should count as some sort of murder. And she was showing us pictures of the babies, and it was pretty bloody. :/

I'm going to assume by "babies" you mean fetuses. Because why the hell would she be showing you pictures of bloody babies if she's talking about abortion o_o

 

Personally, I don't see abortion as "killing a human being" because it's still a fetus, therefore it's not murder. It all depends on how you perceive it.

[Obscure_Trash]

My friend made a presentation on abortion, for English class, and she talked about how it was sort of like murder. I mean, you're technically killing a living human being, right? It should count as some sort of murder. And she was showing us pictures of the babies, and it was pretty bloody. :/

-I hope references were a part of the assignment and will be graded on because I can tell you right now hers weren't good

-Abortion doesn't have to do with babies. Seriously, a baby is a term for a born child.

-Here are some pics of real abortion results Medical procedure stuff: http://www.thisismyabortion.com/ http://arguing-about-abortions.tumblr.com/...ures-of-fetuses

-Pretty much all surgeries have "icky" parts to do with them

-The definition of murder is the illegal premeditated killing of a person. Fetuses aren't people - they have no personhood.

-Did she discuss at all any of the kinds of reasons why people get abortions? Did she talk about bodily autonomy - the fact that corpses have more bodily autonomy under law than pregnant people do?

[Pokemonfan13]

I don't personally see why so much emphasis is put on what an abortion looks like or what it actually involves. It should be the woman's choice regardless.

 

Pregnancy is not fun and can wreak havoc on some people. And the adoption/foster system isn't exactly stellar either. And the last thing we need are even more people, and unwanted ones at that. So people who say "have the baby and give it up" are still condemning the woman to do a full term pregnancy and deliver the baby. They are adding one more mouth into this world that is likely to have a major food crisis. They are possibly condemning the child to a life bouncing from foster home to foster home without ever really being loved.

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't personally see why so much emphasis is put on what an abortion looks like or what it actually involves. It should be the woman's choice regardless.

 

Pregnancy is not fun and can wreak havoc on some people. And the adoption/foster system isn't exactly stellar either. And the last thing we need are even more people, and unwanted ones at that. So people who say "have the baby and give it up" are still condemning the woman to do a full term pregnancy and deliver the baby. They are adding one more mouth into this world that is likely to have a major food crisis. They are possibly condemning the child to a life bouncing from foster home to foster home without ever really being loved.

Why they do it is that posting images of dear little thumb-sucking foetuses is supposed to make us feel that that is what you are removing from your body at 12 weeks if you have an abortion - and it IS NOT.

 

Right to lifers try to guilt people by using photos of almost ready to be born foetuses. So given the number of people who MIGHT be prepared to think straight who are deluded into believing that, it IS worth showing what is ACTUALLY removed. In my case it looked like a really bad period. No way was it human.

[Cecona]

At 12 weeks it only barely looks humanoid in my opinion, it's like some weird slimy bug/bird. As unfortunate it is for that to be the result of a miscarriage, I think it's a picture people need to see in order to understand the development of a fetus.

 

And to add to the discussion, a fetus is unviable outside the womb so why is it allowed more rights than the mother? It's not until 24 weeks it is considered viable and that's already a little more than halfway through the pregnancy, which by that point the decision to keep or abort has already been made.