The Fifth Element Lineage

[Lastalda]

I'm glad you see it this way, because I have news from Pink to pass along:

 

Announcement:

Pink has been in touch with me. She has some severe stress-related health issues, so she has decided to take a big break from running the lineage.

 

Since deblogan is on hiatus and airaani is only half back, that means I'm the only remaining full active mod despite being the new one.

 

So we have decided that, until Pink comes back to claim her fearful-leader-hat, any decisions that need to be made will be made per vote from the active members, with mods getting final say (unless Pink weighs in, who would get final final say). (Basically, what we've always done anyway , but we won't wait for Pink's final word before anything is decided.)

 

I will do my very best to keep the News ticker on the website up to date with any current and recent decisions, so Pink (and anyone else who doesn't have time to follow the thread regularly) can keep up with what we're currently discussing, and weigh in if she feels like it.

 

~~~~

 

It sure feels weird that I'm now kinda running the lineage. I mean, I only joined about 2 years ago, and was made a mod only this summer, ad I keep bringing all these "changes" and "improvements" to the lineage (you know, all the spreadsheets, and the restructure of the first page that is currently in beta stage), which "outsiders" really shouldn't do, and I really don't want to take anyone's lineage away...

 

Despite my anxiety, though, feedback so far has been very positive so I don't feel quite so much like a lineage thief. Also, I'm enjoying spending time on the lineage and with y'all , and I think we'll manage fine. And this should hopefully be a huge load off Pink's shoulders, which is defintiely good.

 

So far, discussing and then deciding has always worked wonderfully on this thread, because you guys are all awesomely enthusiastic about the project.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Lastalda

[Fiona]

I'm sorry to hear Pink's having some troubles. I hope she gets well fast. Of course she should take a break if that will help.

 

All the changes you've suggested have been good ideas. You aren't taking anything away from us, you're adding to it. We like that. Being newer doesn't make you an outsider when you're fully participating. It just makes you one of us who hasn't been here as long.

 

 

 

So, since we're discussing and voting, can I ask for discussion on my question about 2nd gen prizes in leeloos? Particularly in all-inclusives, but it could pertain to any leeloo. I'd really like a decision before I get too far into breeding the second gens.

[Lastalda]

I had totally meant to open a vote on that as soon as the lunar heralds voting is closed.

But feel free to discuss already.

 

So far I haven't seen any counter arguments to using 2nd gen prizes...?

Fiona, can you maybe formulate your proposal so that I could add it to the rules, and then we can call a vote on it?

[silver_tiger]

You're doing great as a mod, Lastalda. Like Fiona says, you're adding wonderful things to the lineage... and two years is more than enough time to make you an established member, not an outsider.

 

As for the 2nd gen prize thing... I don't see why not! It's so ridiculously hard to get 'CB' prizes, and I'm pretty sure there was already an established rule about using 2nd gen metals if you had no CB Golds/Silvers. It makes sense to me to allow 2nd gen prizes too, since there's a much lower chance of getting one of those than there is Gold and Silvers.

[Fiona]

Here is the proposal: When building a 6th or 7th gen leeloo it's permitted to use a 2nd gen Shimmer, Tinsel, prizekind, dragon from CB Hybrid, and/or 2nd gen Thuwed hybrids whose parents are not on your scroll if one of the parents is a shimmer, tinsel or CB hybrid dragon, or if the parents are TJ's. The 2nd gen you are including does not have to be a prize dragon.

 

How does that sound?

 

ETA: I added Cathie's suggestion, except I added 2nd gen prizekin in there, because those can be as hard to come by as a 2nd gen prize and it still gets prizes in the leeloos. Does it read poorly now? I want the wording to be clear but I like the idea of including the offspring of CB hybrids.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Fiona BlueFire

[Grandmother_cathie]

1) lastalda- you are doing wonderfully. Let us know if you need help.

2) Pink- sadness in your stressfullness. I hope things start looking better.

3) I think we should clarify the prize issue to be "Shimmers, Tinsels, CB Hybrids, and/or 2nd gen Thuwed hybrids."

[Lastalda]

Hm. I'm not sold on generally allowing all 2nd gen Thuweds and CB hybrid offspring. To me, the point is that we'd allow these things to give members the possibility to get breeds into their leeloos that they otherwise couldn't use (because almost nobody has CB prizes).

So personally I would restrict these to 2nd gen prizes and prize-kin, and 2nd gen offspring from CB hybrids that are only eligible as CBs because normally they require a non-elemental parent.

Currently, that should only be CB hellhorses (becausebred hellhorses require a horse dragon parent, and we don't accept horses).

If you want any of the other hybrids in your leeloo, you can have them in a higher gen.

Or am I seeing this wrong?

 

Also: I think if you want to substitute for metal in a metallic leeloo, then the 2nd gen must be a prize, not a prize-kin.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Lastalda

[airaani]

Hm. I'm not sold on generally allowing all 2nd gen Thuweds and CB hybrid offspring. To me, the point is that we'd allow these things to give members the possibility to get breeds into their leeloos that they otherwise couldn't use (because almost nobody has CB prizes).

So personally I would restrict these to 2nd gen prizes and prize-kin, and 2nd gen offspring from CB hybrids that are only eligible as CBs because normally they require a non-elemental parent.

Currently, that should only be CB hellhorses (becausebred hellhorses require a horse dragon parent, and we don't accept horses).

If you want any of the other hybrids in your leeloo, you can have them in a higher gen.

Or am I seeing this wrong?

 

Also: I think if you want to substitute for metal in a metallic leeloo, then the 2nd gen must be a prize, not a prize-kin.

What you're saying about the hybrids makes sense to me. I support making this limited to hellhorses only, because any other hybrid can be included as self-bred.

 

The metals to prizes thing is not an exact parallel... but I see the point it was intended to make. To really "include" the breed you don't have a CB of, in this case a prize, you'd have to actually have one on your scroll to breed into the leeloo--just a 2nd gen instead of a CB. I'm not 100% but given that's how we do metals in metallic leeloos, I'm leaning towards prizes over prizekin.

[Lastalda]

Hm. I think if it's not a metallic leeloo (or you have the required CB/2nd gen metallics in it anyway), then it shouldn't matter much whether you use a 2nd gen prize or prize-kin. After all, many breeds (usually about half ) in a Leeloo only appear in the CB generation and not further, and we still count them? So one of your 2nd gen prize/prizekin's parent breeds will only appear in the CB generation anyway - so it might as well be the prize breed...?

 

(Actually, I'm still not quite comfortably sure how all-inclusives work, and for the other Leeloos, counting doesn't matter as long as no breed appears twice.)

[Fiona]

It was actually hellhorses I was thinking of. The only way to get a hellhorse into a leeloo is to have a cb hellhorse or to have a 2nd gen from cb hellhorse. I actually own two of them, one a Thuwed and the other not. I would be fine with limited the inclusion of 2nd gens from cb hybrids to hellhorses. (I'm not actually going to include them in this particular all-inclusive leeloo because I'd rather have the prize x rb copper instead of the hellhorse x verd. copper but for future plans I'd like to know if they're allowed.)

 

I was asking for prizekin as well as prizes to be considered because it would get a breed I otherwise can't do into my leeloo. If it's a kin and not a prize I would not consider it as part of meeting the requirements for a metallic leeloo.

 

I have cb metals, so was including my cb metals in the lineage. I wasn't looking at it as a way to have a metallic leeloo, but to get an otherwise impossible breed in my leeloo. (Impossible for me as I don't own a 2nd gen gold tinsel)

 

ETA: Including the prizes or hellhorse is not necessary for an all-inclusive because the prizes don't breed the other colors and I can't breed horses and hellfires to get the hellhorse, since horses aren't part of the lineage. In all-inclusives, breeding the hybrid from cb parent breeds is part of what makes it work. However, if I don't include any of these it means I have only one optional breed in a 7th gen all-inclusive. It requires 64 breeds in the starting gen and there are only 65 without counting the ones that can be obtained by breeding others unless I use the prizes and / or the hellhorse.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Fiona BlueFire

[airaani]

Hm. I think if it's not a metallic leeloo (or you have the required CB/2nd gen metallics in it anyway), then it shouldn't matter much whether you use a 2nd gen prize or prize-kin. After all, many breeds (usually about half ) in a Leeloo only appear in the CB generation and not further, and we still count them? So one of your 2nd gen prize/prizekin's parent breeds will only appear in the CB generation anyway - so it might as well be the prize breed...?

 

(Actually, I'm still not quite comfortably sure how all-inclusives work, and for the other Leeloos, counting doesn't matter as long as no breed appears twice.)

Let me clarify - it only matters what breed the 2nd gen is if we're talking about a 2nd gen whose parents are NOT on your scroll. For a metallic leeloo, we required you to include a metallic in it, and breeding in a 2nd gen that wasn't a metallic, from a metallic you didn't own, didn't count - it only counted if you bred in a 2nd gen metallic. I was extending that logic to 2nd gen prizes in leeloos as well, because only metallic leeloos currently allow for 2nd gens from CBs not on your scroll, at least as far as I'm aware. So to include a prize, you'd have to have a 2nd gen prize to breed, or to include a hellhorse, you'd have to have a 2nd gen hellhorse from CB hellhorse (thuwed or not) to breed.

 

I'm not saying this is the way things have to be, I think we should vote. Just extending the logic of the metallic leeloo rules to see what that looked like for inclusives.

 

 

Edit: Fi, I just counted again. Front page is missing Spirit Wards & Xenos I believe Lastalda is already working on an excellent update of the front page, and I'll go ahead and post the complete list here so we're all working from the same one!

 

Earth Element (19 breeds)

Almandine Pyralspite, Brimstone, Geode, Gold, Golden Wyvern, Green (Pebble/Earth), Liver of Sulfur Copper, Nilia Pygmy, Ochredrake, Pyrope Pyralspite, Rainbow Copper, Silver, Spessartine Pyralspite, Sunstone, Stone, Bronze Tinsel, Gold Tinsel, Silver Tinsel, Verdigris Copper

 

Fire Element (24 breeds)

Avatar of Destruction (BOTH parents must be Elemental), Bleeding Moon, Blue Two-Headed Lindwurm, Crimson Flare Pygmy, Day Glory, Electric, Ember, Falconiform wyvern, Red (Fire), Grave, Green Two-Headed Lindwurm, Hellfire, Magma, Magelight Pygmy, Moonstone, Night Glory, Nocturne, Royal Crimson, Solstice, Spitfire, Sunrise, Sunset, Sunsong, Thuwed Hellhorse

 

Life Element (26 breeds)

Astrapi Xenowyrm, Autumn Seasonal, Avatar of Creation (BOTH parents must be Elemental), Canopy, Chrono Xenowyrm, Desipis, Frostbite, Gaia Xenowyrm, Guardian of Nature, Harvest, Heartseeker, Mageia Xenowyrm, Magi, Mint, Neotropical, Pumpkin, Pyro Xenowyrm, Soulpeace, Spirit Ward, Spring Seasonal, Summer Seasonal, Terrae, Vine, White, Winter Seasonal

 

Water Element (20 breeds)

Bluna, Dark Myst Pygmy, Deep Sea, Glaucus Drakes, Ice, Mistletoe, Red Finned Tidal, Royal Blue, Seawyrm Pygmy, Bronze Shimmer, Gold Shimmer, Silver Shimmer, Shallow Water, Striped River, Tsunami, Undine, Water, Waterhorse, Water Walker, Waverunner

 

Wind Element (11 breeds)

Avatar of Change (BOTH parents must be Elemental), Balloon, Daydream, Gray (Fog/Storm), Nebula, Purple Ridgewing, Tan Ridgewing, Shadow Walker, Skywing, Thunder, Winter Magi

 

I don't know if you were counting holidays and GoN or not, but I'm getting 74 total CB breeds, not including prizes. We have 6 normal-breeding holidays on the list, which means that even for members with no CB metals, CB holidays, or GoN, there is still 65, or flexibility of a single breed! (Almandine, perhaps).

For the record, my results are showing 12 extra variations (2 extra copper colors, 1 extra sunrise/set, 3 extra seasons, 1 extra ridgewing, and 5 extra xenowyrms) which means we are at between 53 and 62, depending how you count, on our way to a 7th gen all-inclusive! That's with no access to 2nd gen prizes or hellfires ^.^

Edited September 23, 2015 by airaani

[Grandmother_cathie]

Let me clarify - it only matters what breed the 2nd gen is if we're talking about a 2nd gen whose parents are NOT on your scroll. For a metallic leeloo, we required you to include a metallic in it, and breeding in a 2nd gen that wasn't a metallic, from a metallic you didn't own, didn't count - it only counted if you bred in a 2nd gen metallic. I was extending that logic to 2nd gen prizes in leeloos as well, because only metallic leeloos currently allow for 2nd gens from CBs not on your scroll, at least as far as I'm aware. So to include a prize, you'd have to have a 2nd gen prize to breed, or to include a hellhorse, you'd have to have a 2nd gen hellhorse from CB hellhorse (thuwed or not) to breed.

 

I'm not saying this is the way things have to be, I think we should vote. Just extending the logic of the metallic leeloo rules to see what that looked like for inclusives.

I agree with this.

[Fiona]

I'm ok with the ruling if that's what is decided.

 

Airaani, I think your count agrees with mine. A 7th gen leeloo is possible even without prizes and hellhorses. You have one breed to be flexible with in that case.

 

Here is my sheet setting up my 7th gen all-inclusive. I can certainly make adjustments to remove anything that is determined to be disallowed, such as the 2nd gen bleeding moon from gold tinsel.

 

Right now with the direction of the discussion all I'd need to change is that bleeding moon.

[Lastalda]

Let me clarify - it only matters what breed the 2nd gen is if we're talking about a 2nd gen whose parents are NOT on your scroll. For a metallic leeloo, we required you to include a metallic in it, and breeding in a 2nd gen that wasn't a metallic, from a metallic you didn't own, didn't count - it only counted if you bred in a 2nd gen metallic. I was extending that logic to 2nd gen prizes in leeloos as well, because only metallic leeloos currently allow for 2nd gens from CBs not on your scroll, at least as far as I'm aware. So to include a prize, you'd have to have a 2nd gen prize to breed, or to include a hellhorse, you'd have to have a 2nd gen hellhorse from CB hellhorse (thuwed or not) to breed.

 

I'm not saying this is the way things have to be, I think we should vote. Just extending the logic of the metallic leeloo rules to see what that looked like for inclusives.

Ah, I see your logic. Thanks.

 

I'm still torn, though - 2nd gen from metal-kins are easy to come by, so not allowing these makes total sense. Getting a 2nd gen metallic requires some effort (which can totally happen in the form of milestones, so it's open to everyone).

But 2nd gen Prize-kin (and probably 2nd gen Hybrid-kin, too) are so very hard to come by, actually much much harder than 2nd gen metallics. (Also, there's no way to get them via milestones.) Using these to get prizes into your Leeloo is not lazyness.

 

I agree we should vote on this. And I'd suggest we require a 2/3 majority in favour of allowing 2nd gen prize-kin and hybrid-kin, else we won't allow using them (maybe we can do a runoff vote between the top 2 options, if needed).

 

How about these options? (Please don't vote yet, we need to get the choices straight, first!)

 

Under which circumstances should using 2nd gen offspring from prizes and CB hybrids* that are not on your scroll for Leeloos > 5th gen be allowed?

 

1. If they are the same breed as the CB prize/hybrid.

2. Always, independant of their breed. (But to substitute for metal in a metallic Leeloo, they'd need to be prizes.)

3. Never.

 

* Only applies to hybrid breeds that can not be bred from two elemental parents. (Right now, that's only hellhorses, but there might be others in the future, so I'd like to keep this general).

 

Have I missed something or do these cover the options?

 

If possible, I'd like to open voting on this issue tomorrow, after we close the voting on Lunar Heralds.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lastalda

[airaani]

Airaani, I think your count agrees with mine. A 7th gen leeloo is possible even without prizes and hellhorses. You have one breed to be flexible with in that case.

Okay, as long as you're getting the same! There's 1 flexible breed assuming no holidays, no GoN, and CB metals So you should have more than that, right?

[Fiona]

I was using holidays and GoN. ... I came up with 65 breeds without prizes and hellhorse but otherwise including everything that breeds with regular dragons.

 

Lastalda, I think that covers the options.

[Grandmother_cathie]

Here is my sheet setting up my 7th gen all-inclusive.

That kinda hurts my brain to just think of how you thought that up and organized it.

 

A 7th gen leeloo is possible even without prizes and hellhorses. You have one breed to be flexible with in that case.

Could there not then be a "7th Gen all inclusive Leelo" and a "Prize 7th gen all inclusive Leelo"? One could have 2nd gen prizes and 2nd gen hybrids from off scroll while the other could not?

 

Not that my brain could organize that, mind you.

 

Under which circumstances should using 2nd gen offspring from prizes and CB hybrids* that are not on your scroll for Leeloos > 5th gen be allowed?

 

1. If they are the same breed as the CB prize/hybrid.

2. Always, independant of their breed. (But to substitute for metal in a metallic Leeloo, they'd need to be prizes.)

3. Never.

 

Have I missed something or do these cover the options?

I believe that you've gotten the current possibilities, but I don't believe that a prize should count for a metal in a metallic Leeloo. They aren't actually metals.

 

 

[Lastalda]

I believe that you've gotten the current possibilities, but I don't believe that a prize should count for a metal in a metallic Leeloo.  They aren't actually metals.

Well, we already allow the substitution of 2nd gen metal for 2nd gen prizes. See:

MILESTONE GIFTS

[...]

Category 9 milestone gifts may be selected for the following milestones:

a. Members with an even 6th generation* Metallic Leeloo Element containing any 32 different eligible CB breeds in its lineage from their own scroll. One CB from each pair must be Elementally named in order to qualify. This Element must have 1 silver and 1 gold in the starting base. If they are from your scroll, the resulting 2nd gen can be either common or metallic. If they are not from your scroll, the resulting 2nd gen must be metallic (2nd gen tinsels may be substituted here if you are lucky enough to get one!)

[...]

 

Should we put this up for discussion, too? I'm not against discussing it, just trying to figure out how to go with this, since it's already an established rule.

 

 

Could there not then be a "7th Gen all inclusive Leelo" and a "Prize 7th gen all inclusive Leelo"? One could have 2nd gen prizes and 2nd gen hybrids from off scroll while the other could not?

 

Any particular reason why you'd like to separate these? *curious*

I would have thought allowing these 2nd gens just means that if you have them, you can (but don't have to) use them, and if not, then not.

Since the 2nd gens we're talking about are so very hard to come by, I would be very hesitant about creating a milestone that is only possible with them. Up until now, our milestones are pretty much all "anyone can achieve these with some determination". A prize Leeloo would, in my eyes, not fulfill this.

 

 

Announcement: Voting on Lunar Heralds is closed! We will accept them into the lineage, in WIND!

(I have already added them to the Mastersheet and Timeline. First page will be updated soon anyway and then I'll include them.)

 

Just for future reference: can anyone tell me what percentage of yes / same element - votes we actually require for a breed to be accepted? I'm pretty sure whatever it is we've covered it this time (6 votes for Wind, 1 for Fire, 0 for No), but I'd like to know for next time.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Lastalda

[airaani]

Milestone gifted!

GIFTER: Fiona BlueFire

RECEIVER: airaani

GIFT: CB nebula

MILESTONE: 50 greens

[Grandmother_cathie]

Should we put this up for discussion, too? I'm not against discussing it, just trying to figure out how to go with this, since it's already an established rule.

Didn't realize / forgot that this was already a rule. Please kindly ignore that part of my comment.

[Lastalda]

Voting on the inclusion of 2nd gen prizes etc. in Leeloos is now open!

 

Question: Under which circumstances should using 2nd gen offspring from prizes and CB hybrids* that are not on your scroll for Leeloos > 5th gen be allowed?

 

1. If they are the same breed as the CB prize/hybrid.

2. Always, independant of their breed. (But to substitute for metal in a metallic Leeloo, they'd need to be prizes.)

3. Never.

4. There should be separate Milestones that allow them ('Prize Leeloos'); 'normal' Leeloos should not allow them.

 

 

Please don't only list your favourite option but specify for each option whether you prefer / can live with / are against it (i.e., yes/neutral/no).

That should save us having to do a run-off.

 

Note: Option 2 needs 2/3 of votes to be yes or neutral, otherwise it won't pass!

 

* Only applies to hybrid breeds that can not be bred from two elemental parents. (Right now, that's only hellhorses, but there might be others in the future).

 

 

Voting will stay open at least until next week.

I hope I didn't make this too complicated...

 

 

Voting tally:

1 (only prizes/hybrids, not kin):

- Yes: 4 (Cathie, Ivory, airaani, Zeldarax)

- Neutral: 4 (Lastalda, Fiona, rrattts, silver_chan)

- No:

2 (all):

- Yes: 4 (Lastalda, Fiona, rrattts, silver_chan)

- Neutral: 3 (Cathie, Ivory, airaani)

- No: 1 (Zeldarax)

3 (Never):

- Yes:

- Neutral: 1 (Ivory)

- No: 7 (Lastalda, Fiona, rrattts, Cathie, airaani, silver_chan, Zeldarax)

4 (Separate milestones):

- Yes:

- Neutral: 4 (Fiona, rrattts, Cathie, Ivory)

- No: 4 (Lastalda, airaani, silver_chan, Zeldarax)

Edited October 7, 2015 by Lastalda

[Fiona]

I don't think it's too complicated.

 

I'm voting:

2. Yes

1. Neutral

4. Neutral

3. No

 

(which should come as no surprise to anyone here... )

[Lastalda]

Adding my own votes:

 

1. Neutral

2. Yes

3. No

4. No

[rrattts]

Even though it's way over my head will make a vote

 

1 Neutral

2. Yes

3. No

4 Neutral

 

I know I am not much of a breeder looking at the leeloo lineage it's possible to breed 2nd gens to help others but not 3rd gens?

[Grandmother_cathie]

1. yes

2. neutral but I'm totally ok with being overruled

3. no

4. neutral