Racism

[Mondat]

@Shiny

I care more about making sure that PoC are taken care of than making sure a white person's feelings aren't hurt.

I personally think that making sure that every human being is taken care of and no feelings are hurt is the best.

 

As I said before, I do not live in the US therefore I cannot judge so you have "homepoints"(dont' know another word for it). Still, I do not understand why you seem to keep on justifying the behaviour of some black people with "they were treated bad by white people in the past" when your own definition of racism appears to be similar to what some black people do to white people in my eyes.

But ok. You have your opinion that what PoC do is "racial prejudice" only & a "reaction" if I can say so, I have another opinion depending on the situation. I'd say let's leave it at that

 

-------------------------------------

Overall I'd like to say:

• Justifying "bad" behaviour because of bad treatment in the past doesn't do anyone good - and I speak from own experience
• everyone is entitled to a safe place

I do not think that anyone can understand the situation as a minority unless you belong to the minority yourself. I didn't understand the foreigners back in Germany, why some of them immediately called someone Nazi and why they were angry. Now as a white in Japan I can understand why you can get angry. Some landlords not renting apartments to foreigners unless a Japanese acts as a guarantor, everyone seeming to think you're American, police stopping you to check you, not having many chances at the job market, the xenophobia, on and on.

It is difficult, but it is important to not be focused on the bad things only. There is also good in the world and not only hate

[Fuzzbucket]

Nazis declared themself to be superior and Jews to be a inferior race, something which is racism and the whole problem. So when you say that white people are not a victim of racism, you clearly seem to forget the Holocaust!?

 

ACTUALLY and just for the record, the Holocaust was not "racist" as such. It was supremacist, yes - but don't forget that it didn't only target Jews; it also targeted gays, communists, anyone even slightly mentally backward, epileptics.

 

What it was was an extreme example of forcible eugenics, aimed at improving the Germanic "Ubermenschen" master race. Race prejudice did come in to it, in that the preferred stereotype was blond and blue eyed, but you were basically targeted for being a "life unworthy of life" - "criminal, degenerate, dissident, feeble-minded, homosexual, idle, insane, and the weak." And it all STARTED in the US.

The methods of implementing eugenics varied by country; however, some of the early 20th century methods involved identifying and classifying individuals and their families, including the poor, mentally ill, blind, deaf, developmentally disabled, promiscuous women, homosexuals, and racial groups (such as the Roma and Jews in Nazi Germany) as "degenerate" or "unfit", the segregation or institutionalization of such individuals and groups, their sterilization, euthanasia, and their mass murder.[12] The practice of euthanasia was carried out on hospital patients in the Aktion T4 centers such as Hartheim Castle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States - where it still persists to this day. And it was also proposed as a really good idea by Churchill, in the UK.

Randolph Churchill has been accused of deliberately omitting from his narrative volumes and from the companion volumes-because he was ashamed of it-a letter from Churchill to Asquith, written in December 1910, stating that "The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the Feeble-Minded and Insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate."

 

I do not think Nazism is therefore an appropriate analogy in this thread. Anti-semitism is. So is calling all Germans Nazis. That is a RACIST insult.

 

The Roma are not black, and have been oppressed since time immemorial; even today they are being ethnically cleansed in some countries. Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda was black on black racism. There is massive racism in Asia, between all the various countries there. Please don't belittle the fight for equality for ALL by trying to limit the term. Racism - against ALL races - is reprehensible.

 

I do GET that there is a HISTORIC problem in the US - as there is in many other countries against various races. There are current RACIST problems all over the world. We all (who care about equality) need to fight internationally, not pick one race that feels particularly hard done by and say ONLY they get to use the term.

Edited May 16, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[JavaTigress]

I have a question.

 

This feels kind of awkward to ask so... here goes.

 

I am honestly confused about something. Although I was brought up in a fairly 'homogeneous' region of the country, populated PRIMARILY by folks of European ancestry like myself, I was also raised to believe that all of us are human beings, regardless of our ethnic origin, and basically equals. The idea of treating someone rudely or with disrespect because their background is different is abhorrent to me and I believe that everyone should have opportunities in life. Therefore, I never thought of myself as a racist and would have become QUITE defensive if someone had called me one. That said, I came to the conclusion recently that it would feel... odd... if my sister married someone of a different 'race' than ourselves. I don't believe I would try to FORBID her from doing it, if she truly loved the person in question, it would just be harder to view them as 'family' because they look so different and odd to know that any nieces and nephews I might have would NEVER look anything like the rest of the family. I would adjust, which I realize I would have to do, anyhow, whoever she married, but maybe a tad bit more so. Truthfully, I find the revelation more than a little disturbing because otherwise I have no problem with other people groups nor with 'interracial' marriage as a rule. I am just plain confused about the thing, now... please help!

 

* Fails awkwardly at trying to explain*

 

The question is... does this make me a racist?

 

The idea would horrify me, to be honest, because I believe that racism is WRONG.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Silverswift

[MasterWeavile898]

Yes and no...

 

Imo mostly no. It's not quite the same, but I find the concept of marrying someone blonde strange. Just because like my entire family has dark hair (aside from maybe my late grandmother, but I only remember her hair as white) That doesn't mean I have anything against blondes, it just means that I'm used to darker hair

 

However, you will get a lot of people calling you racist for something like that. There's nothing wrong with it being strange to you. And if it did happen, you'd likely adjust fairly quickly

 

So don't worry about it too much. Just try not to make a big deal about it if it does happen

 

Or at least that's my opinion *Shrugs*

[Kano Shuuya]

Yes that's racist. Hair color and race are not the same thing. However, if you recognize that it is racist you can work to change it rather than denying it and causing a bigger problem. These things are usually not intentional, it is groomed into the minds of people that white = right. It is up to the individual to work against it in every chance they get.

[JavaTigress]

Yes and no...

 

So don't worry about it too much. Just try not to make a big deal about it if it does happen

 

Or at least that's my opinion *Shrugs*

That is good advice. Thanks for the input.

 

Yes that's racist. Hair color and race are not the same thing. However, if you recognize that it is racist you can work to change it rather than denying it and causing a bigger problem. These things are usually not intentional, it is groomed into the minds of people that white = right. It is up to the individual to work against it in every chance they get.

 

The thing that disturbs me about it is that I was NEVER taught to think that way and that I certainly don't WANT to be a racist. It isn't like I think that I am BETTER than someone else. I sort of wonder if feeling more comfortable with people who are 'like us' is, perhaps, a part of human nature. Whether it is right or wrong and whether we want it to be or not? *shrugs* I do get your point about it being an attitude thing that can be worked on, however.

 

My point was that it would take a bit of getting used to.

 

As to the topic at hand, I agree with those that say racism/racial prejudice ( whichever term you prefer to use) needs to be addressed whoever it is that is doing it. If the person in question is from a group that was historically victims of prejudice, that makes it understandable though NOT acceptable, I think, for them to return prejudice. Two wrongs don't make a right and I think that it seems like prejudice and racism have a way of breeding further prejudice and racism. It sort of creates a vicious cycle where NO ONE benefits.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Silverswift

[MasterWeavile898]

But, they are the same...

 

At least, if we're basically assuming race=skin color (though that's a bit inaccurate, since there's things like nose type and stuff that tend to be taken into account by our brains) They're both just physical features that have no bearing on anything beyond what people make them out to be

 

And no, they're not exactly the same, I was just providing an example on how things go. The only real reason Silverswift would be uncomfortable with it, is because she isn't used to it. Just like the only reason I'd be uncomfortable with a blonde brother-in-law is because I don't really have any family that's blonde

 

At least hat's what I assume it is Silverswift, if it's more than just you finding it unusual, then maybe there's a problem

 

But as I assume it is, there's nothing wrong with it as long as there isn't a big deal made of it

[Fuzzbucket]

But, they are the same...

 

At least, if we're basically assuming race=skin color (though that's a bit inaccurate, since there's things like nose type and stuff that tend to be taken into account by our brains) They're both just physical features that have no bearing on anything beyond what people make them out to be

 

And no, they're not exactly the same, I was just providing an example on how things go. The only real reason Silverswift would be uncomfortable with it, is because she isn't used to it. Just like the only reason I'd be uncomfortable with a blonde brother-in-law is because I don't really have any family that's blonde

 

At least hat's what I assume it is Silverswift, if it's more than just you finding it unusual, then maybe there's a problem

 

But as I assume it is, there's nothing wrong with it as long as there isn't a big deal made of it

Race =/= skin colour.

 

But are you sure your feeling that it would be peculiar is because of looks/race or just because of difference ? I found the fact of my French brother-in-law very odd for a long long time, as his outlook and background were so very alien to me. I found him very hard to talk to as I had to realise how all my assumptions about the way things ARE were completely different from his, and I imagine he felt the same about me. Looks aren't everything; they just highlight some differences.

[MasterWeavile898]

I know, I'm just oversimplifying to make my point easier to convey, that's all

[JavaTigress]

Race =/= skin colour.

 

But are you sure your feeling that it would be peculiar is because of looks/race or just because of difference ? I found the fact of my French brother-in-law very odd for a long long time, as his outlook and background were so very alien to me. I found him very hard to talk to as I had to realise how all my assumptions about the way things ARE were completely different from his, and I imagine he felt the same about me. Looks aren't everything; they just highlight some differences.

AND fuzzbucket brings up an interesting point of cultural differences.

 

How would it feel being the person that has married into a family with a different background than their own. Might be a bit awkward at times for THEM as well, come to think of it, given that their in-laws might have entirely different traditions and so on from what they are used to.

 

It might be a fascinating learning experience for everyone concerned, though, provided that they let it be.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Silverswift

[Kano Shuuya]

You can change your hair color. If you are experiencing your feelings hurt because you have red hair, you can dye your hair. You can't walk away from racism.

 

Also, when I said racism is groomed into the minds of everyone, I didn't mean everyone is aware of it. In fact, most people aren't... It is on a societal level. Society teaches us this, not any particular person. White is beautiful, white is right, act white, look white, not white enough, etc etc etc.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Kano Shuuya

[MasterWeavile898]

Well, I made a reply, then internet stuffs happened

 

And then it occured to me that I could always just ask my grandmother (I'd ask my grandfather, but my mom already visited him this month) Since she's actually part of an interracial marriage, it would be interesting to see her opinion

 

EDIT: And I'll be shore to post what she says here

Edited May 16, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Slaskia]

Actually, I think it's been already proven that we are all racist at least somewhat on a genetic level. There were experiments with babies where they had people of different skin colors look at them: the babies preferred to look at people that had the same skin color as them. Can this be 'grown out of' with proper exposure/education as they grow? Sure. But that this 'preference' exists in even the very young is telling.

 

I'd dig up a source, but my google fu is not very good, and besides, I first heard of this via a TV program.

 

Edit: OK, did a search anyway, and...well, found a lot of sources. I chose this one: http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2014/04/16/stu...ow-racial-bias/

 

They call it 'racial bias' in most articles that came up, but a 'bias' could easily be turned into actual racism in the right (or wrong, depending on your PoV) environment.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Slaskia

[KageSora]

I sort of wonder if feeling more comfortable with people who are 'like us' is, perhaps, a part of human nature.

That might be a thing--it takes a while to overcome no matter what it is, but generally I know people who tend to feel better when they're with people who are similar to themselves, no matter what respect it's in.

 

It can be a problem if left unchecked because then you get discrimination. But the idea of being more comfortable with sameness seems to happen across the board in all kinds of people in just about any situation you can imagine.

 

It wouldn't be surprising to see this extend to race as well.

 

That doesn't make it right, but recognizing it means you can work to avoid letting that get in the way or make you treat them differently and work on changing that mindset.

[Featherheart]

I can't be racist without making fun of someone in my family. (Not that I'd want to be.) I have a half African American cousin, I believe a half Mexican 2nd cousins (not quiet sure what race their is) I'm 1/4 Chinese, German, I believe French and British, I'm not sure what else but that's quiet a lot in my opinion.

[Mondat]

ACTUALLY and just for the record, the Holocaust was not "racist" as such. It was supremacist, yes - but don't forget that it didn't only target Jews; it also targeted gays, communists, anyone even slightly mentally backward, epileptics.

 

(I do not get mail notifications therefore my reply is a bit late.)

 

As I said before, I do not care much about every little term. What you say doesn't change the fact that the Holocaust was "racist" too, racial supremacy anyone?

When you heard "Übermenschen", you´d know that there were "Untermenschen"? Jews, Roma and black people etc. were Untermenschen.

You yourself said that

So is calling all Germans Nazis. That is a RACIST insult.

So why would "Nazi" be a racist insult then?

(Let´s also not forget that I didn´t bring in the term "Nazism" at all...)

 

The Holocaust had not much to do with improving Übermenschen, it was to get rid of the Untermenschen - based on utter BS.

 

ACTUALLY and just for the record, I do know that Jews weren´t the only one. I´ve been to KONZENTRATIONSLAGER.

It is made sure that we Germans do not forget. I will also never forget the stories about the horrible experiments.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Mondat

[KageSora]

I've never understood the "Nazi = racist insult" thing. I wasn't aware that Germans were their own race? Wouldn't that be more of a culturally-based insult rather than a racially-based one?

[Mondat]

I've never understood the "Nazi = racist insult" thing.  I wasn't aware that Germans were their own race?  Wouldn't that be more of a culturally-based insult rather than a racially-based one?

To me personally, it is a historically-based insult.

From I´ve experienced or heard, some foreigners in Germany use it freely when they think a German has something against foreigners/immigrants. I do not think all of them understand that you can be a racist or have something against foreigners without being a "Nazi". But to be a Nazi, you have to be a racist.

[Fuzzbucket]

To me personally, it is a historically-based insult.

From I´ve experienced or heard, some foreigners in Germany use it freely when they think a German has something against foreigners/immigrants. I do not think all of them understand that you can be a racist or have something against foreigners without being a "Nazi". But to be a Nazi, you have to be a racist.

ONLY among other things. You also have to be homophobic, anti anyone with any kind of disability, anti people you think are less intelligent than you, anti ANY foreigners - to name but a few. Nazis are (sadly Nazism seems to be back) FAR more than "just" racists".

[Kestra15]

I've never understood the "Nazi = racist insult" thing. I wasn't aware that Germans were their own race? Wouldn't that be more of a culturally-based insult rather than a racially-based one?

Race isn't just about skin tone or ancestral lineage, it is also about country of origin. If you insult someone based on a stereotype about their country of origin then that is racism, so calling me a Nazi is a racial slur just as much as making jokes about the Welsh having sex with sheep or calling Americans fat, lazy and egocentric.

[Fuzzbucket]

Race isn't just about skin tone or ancestral lineage, it is also about country of origin. If you insult someone based on a stereotype about their country of origin then that is racism, so calling me a Nazi is a racial slur just as much as making jokes about the Welsh having sex with sheep or calling Americans fat, lazy and egocentric.

I don't think so. There are people being called (some of them justifiably... ) Nazi in several Scandinavian countries these days, and also in Italy and the UK - a number of BNP members actually style themselves as Nazis, and would not see it as an insult at all. The word isn't exclusively used to insult Germans any more. It's spread. (and BTW Cumbrians are often "jokingly" accused of having sex with sheep, too.)

[DragonKami]

I don't like racism and will stand up for other people. But when it is directed towards me, to be honest I don't, and never did, care. Like not even a "not care" when you're defensive about something, I just literally don't care. I won't even flinch, you can say a racist joke as my friend and I'll probably laugh. You know when a sibling (or someone close to you) says a something like "Dude, you suck." and they always say that, and don't even mean it as an insult, so you take 0% offense and it probably starts a new conversation. It's like that. Even though I know they meant to insult me.

[Starscream]

I have an example of something that occurred today of someone trying to shoe-horn racism in...

 

I think this is the best thread and this is taken from my facebook feed. I don't want to re-write it as my hand hurts form puncturing it earlier. I fixed some... "language"

 

OMG the things people assume is racism... It isn't the person being racist is the person pointing it out.... I am crying fowl (pun intended)

 

Chicken for instance is divided up into white meat and dark meat.

 

What is the difference between white and dark meat? Perhaps its the fact that dark meat contains more myoglobin - which is a type of protein generally found in muscle that is exercised more. Chickens are usually grown for their meaty breast meat, which is generally lower in fat. Leg meat is generally a lot more oily - and to be frank my favourite bit of the bird. Juicy and tasty.

 

White meat - usually is the bigger portion of the bird, heavier meat. And if you are paying per kilo for a bird: divide the bird up, into quarters, weigh out the white meat sections, weigh out the dark meat sections and I can guarantee your white meat is going to weigh more. Take your bird's cost per kg, divide that by one thousand and find the price per gram, weight out the white and dark separately and then multiply those numbers by the cost per gram and tell you, you will find the white meat costs more.

 

Charging more for white meat, is not racism, its math. If we were to charge people of visible minority more for white meat and not white people, then yeah, that is racism... but not when the cost of the meat is actually a mathematical factor. Everyone is treated equal and pays the same fraggin price.

 

Have these people never gone to the supermarket and bought boneless or bone in white meat? it costs a fortune! Its not because its white - Its desirable. Thigh and leg meat is not as expensive. Also wing meat is insanely costly - again desirable.

Duck breast, for example costs about 10 dollars each. its heavy in myoglobin - because the birds can fly and use their wings. Its because breast meat of a bird is highly desirable. I wait until I can get ducks at about 10 dollars each and break it down myself.

 

And from what I was told, these people probably were not joking.

 

my head hurts at the stupidity.

[Obscure_Trash]

So in some real news, JK Rowling continues to appropriate Native culture as she describes magic in North America, HP-verse.

 

First the Magic in North America trailers, which both stole and then twisted the concept of skinwalkers. Now Ilvermorney houses come out and the animals and art are based off of Native concepts, yet all the founders are white.

 

Yes, it's just fiction, but it's still harmful to steal these important cultural stories and myths and to misrepresent them. There are so many cool things Rowling could have done with magic in NA instead of just appropriating Native culture.

 

Also in fiction news, some from the Quileute tribe have come up with Truth vs Twilight to educate people on the actual Quileute culture and history, which does have a rich story interwoven with wolves. While Twilight was pretty gross to them, I hope this gives them an actual platform to share their voices.

Edited July 3, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Dragoniclove123]

I shall say here what I said on the sexism thread.

 

Any sort of prejudice against any group of people is idiotic beyond belief. You shouldn't judge anyone in any way until you've met them as an individual, and then you can't judge someone else by how you judged that previous person, no matter how similar they are.

Gender, age, race, etc etc, this is what I believe.

I agree. People shouldn't be judged. It's their life, not yours.