Racism

[hazeh]

I honestly don't see the difference. A white being prejudice against a black and a black being prejudice against a white is the same thing, doesn't matter who is in 'power' or not: it's still racism.

 

As for just being 'racist because they are oppressed', that's just going to continue the cycle of racism. Blacks attacking whites because they are white (a hate crime, though more often than not, it's not labeled as such, which is something else that pisses me off: I hate double standards), gives the whites a reason to continue being racist. Then the cycle starts again....

*sighs*

 

No, it is not the same thing.

Until people understand that racial prejudice =/= racism, there is going to be a problem.

Racism against a black man is not equal to, and will not ever be equal to, racial prejudice against a white person.

 

And no, you've got that cycle backwards. White people continue to be racist, and PoC continue to retaliate with racial prejudice because of that racism. Racial prejudice is a PRODUCT of racism, and while white people can be subjected to it, it is not the same thing and does not amount to the same result.

 

Racism lies in government and social constructs. That's when a group of people are targeted by policies (state wide genocide), laws (segregation), rape, job opportunities, economic opportunities, education opportunities, police brutality, etc unfairly because of their skin color or perceived racial background. White people are not victims of this, they are perpetrators of this.

 

Racial prejudice is when people are ***s to another person because of their perceived racial background. All people can and do suffer from this-- while it is terrible, yes, it is not the same thing as racism. White people suffer from this mainly because of the fact that they are considered the "dominant" race and have caused the wide spread racism, thus PoC react with negativity (racial prejudice).

 

 

But their problems don’t all stem from white people. For example, does discrimination explain this below? Or the persistent gap in test scores that go back decades? Or how Asians do better?

 

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72

 

“Within each racial/ethnic group, women earned the majority of degrees at all levels in 2009–10. For example, among U.S. residents, Black females earned 68 percent of associate's degrees, 66 percent of bachelor's degrees, 71 percent of master's degrees, and 65 percent of all doctor's degrees awarded to Black students.”

 

Another point is that people who dislike racism often hate stereotypes, but they love to claim that all whites are so privileged, even though whites with lower than average intelligence, personality/mental problems, and in poverty or having an unattractive appearance will not be. Here’s a study of just weight/height discrimination, for example. There's of course other differences between individuals.

 

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n6/f...ijo200822a.html

 

“Both institutional forms of weight/height discrimination (for example, in employment settings) and interpersonal mistreatment due to weight/height (for example, being called names) were common, and in some cases were even more prevalent than discrimination due to gender and race.”

 

You're not even talking about race here. You're bringing in different factors. Gender privilege and wealth privilege are not the same as racial privilege.

Do you know why there are more women who get degrees? Because unless they are educated, they are passed over in favor of males for job opportunities. The pressure to get a career is high in females because otherwise they are expected to become stay-at-home moms. That has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with sexism.

However, you could say the same for PoC. There is a push to gain degrees and get higher education simply because they need it in order to get sustainable jobs. White middle class men are favored in the job force even when they don't have high levels of education.

 

You're also bringing up other issues that have nothing to do with racism. Ableism, body type stigma, and poverty. There are all factors that have to be taken into consideration. You know what still makes white people privileged in these situations? Because compared to a PoC with the exact same issues, the white person will still be favored.

 

And that “power” has been used to help minorities e.g. government hiring less qualified black applicants and the use of race in college admissions.

 

Yes, and good thing too. That doesn't mean that this power still doesn't work against minorities, though. Just because they did a good thing with it, doesn't excuse all the bad things they do with it.

 

 

I don't see why people have to throw a fit over someone calling racial prejudice against white people racism even if it IS slightly inaccurate, though? I mean, in the end someone's still being hurt because of it and that's bad and needs to stop. Nitpicking over terminology isn't going to save anyone from violence.

 

Because it's not the same thing. The struggles of minorities cannot be compared to the "struggles" of the majority that oppresses them. History is incredibly significant in this discussion, and should not be ignored because we white people want to play the victim.

Racism suffered by PoC is not the same as the racial prejudice that white people SOMETIMES go through. This distinction really needs to be understood in order for the US to start working towards an equal society.

[Syaoransbear]

Until people understand that racial prejudice =/= racism, there is going to be a problem.

But even major dictionaries seem to disagree with you.

 

 

I'd say more women have degrees because there is no high paying entry level job for women like there is for men except for stripping and prostitution. Men can get hired right out of high school into construction or rig jobs and make $30 an hour with full benefits and job security. My brother makes $120,000 a year on the rigs with no secondary education. Men don't need to get a secondary education if they are fine with physical labor. Women don't have that option even if they are fine with physical labor, because good luck getting someone to hire you over a male. Women need those degrees a lot more than men do.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Sinsdaemn]

Because it's not the same thing. The struggles of minorities cannot be compared to the "struggles" of the majority that oppresses them. History is incredibly significant in this discussion, and should not be ignored because we white people want to play the victim.

Racism suffered by PoC is not the same as the racial prejudice that white people SOMETIMES go through. This distinction really needs to be understood in order for the US to start working towards an equal society.

This, this whole post is beautiful in the simple perfection of explaining well what the difference is and why it matters to know but I am restraining myself to quote only the last bit. I've had troubles myself, in trying to talk about this subject and am better armed for conversation because of your words. Truly, thank you for posting and I really wish you well in fighting the good fight; tireless as it may be.

[Slaskia]

The problem, Shiny, with trying to 'redefine' racism (as Syaoransbear said: major dictionaries disagree with you), is that it reeks of attempting to marginalize the racism against whites that does happen. As I already mentioned, actual hate crimes against whites are already not being labeled as such a lot of the times (even when the criminal STATES they did it because the victim was white). Racism, no matter who it is against, should be treated the same.

 

Whites are not allowed to call blacks the N word without being labeled a racist, while Blacks can call whites 'crackers' without consequence, for example. That's a double standard. Double standards are bad. That's why I refuse to accept your 'redefinition' of racism, as it reeks of trying to make another double standard.

[hazeh]

The problem, Shiny, with trying to 'redefine' racism (as Syaoransbear said: major dictionaries disagree with you), is that it reeks of attempting to marginalize the racism against whites that does happen. As I already mentioned, actual hate crimes against whites are already not being labeled as such a lot of the times (even when the criminal STATES they did it because the victim was white). Racism, no matter who it is against, should be treated the same.

 

Whites are not allowed to call blacks the N word without being labeled a racist, while Blacks can call whites 'crackers' without consequence, for example. That's a double standard. Double standards are bad. That's why I refuse to accept your 'redefinition' of racism, as it reeks of trying to make another double standard.

And who exactly do you think writes these major dictionary definitions? People who spend their time listening to minority groups about what actually affects them in their every day lives?

No, it's old white men.

Things change. The definition of marriage is changing to be accurate, I don't see why "racism" in the Merriam-Webster can't.

 

I'm not marginalizing racism because that's not what it is. It is racial prejudice. You need to understand why people act out of racial prejudice. Yes, hate crimes can happen against white people for being white- that does NOT make it racism. That is racial prejudice.

I have not said that racial prejudice is not an issue. It is a very negative thing that should be dealt with-- but before you can actually deal with the problem, you have to get to the root of said problem. Which is actual racism, i.e., the systematic oppression against minority races.

 

Your example of a double standard is not an actual double standard. "Cracker" is in no way a word that reinforces racism against an oppressed group. The "N" word, however, is an incredibly derogatory word. Do white people really get up in arms about being called cracker? Really? Since when was it used to dehumanize and invalidate an entire group of people?

It's not. It's a consequence of racial prejudice that PoC use because of the racism they face in their every day lives.

 

 

Trying to equate racial prejudice against white people and racism against actual marginalized groups is erasing the struggles that just about every single minority race faces in America because *some* white Americans are subjected to racial prejudice (which is the fault of white people throughout history).

 

 

This, this whole post is beautiful in the simple perfection of explaining well what the difference is and why it matters to know but I am restraining myself to quote only the last bit. I've had troubles myself, in trying to talk about this subject and am better armed for conversation because of your words. Truly, thank you for posting and I really wish you well in fighting the good fight; tireless as it may be.

 

Thanks dear. I understand how difficult this can be. I've been called all sorts of horrible names just for trying to discuss this with people in my college, and it's frankly terrifying how some people react to this. I wish you well too! I will always listen to PoC about these things and fight for their right to be heard.

[Slaskia]

I still think you are trying to make things more 'complicated' than they should be by changing the definition. Not to mention it reeks of making it so only whites can be 'racist' and everyone else get, essentially, a free pass to be racist against them and not get labeled as racist. That's the problem with changing it and that's wrong.

 

'Cracker' is still used as a derogatory term against whites, Shiny. That's the point I was making. Why should one derogatory term be 'acceptable' while another is not (and let's not forget that many blacks use the N word on each other, which always makes me scratch my head)?

 

Now, I'm not saying I don't recognize the oppression minorities go through, but let's be realistic here. Blacks want to be seen as equals to whites right? Then why should acts of racism toward them get 'preferable treatment' (aka actually called racism)? Why is a white on black crime called a hate crime, but a black on white is not? They are both hate crimes! (it's similar to in the case of domestic assault where if a woman hits a man in front of the cops, the cops do nothing, but the moment the man hits back in self defense, he goes to jail: another one of those double standards, but this is for a different thread).

 

Just as whites are being told it's not OK to discriminate against blacks, blacks should be told it's not OK to discriminate against whites. They should be treated the same!

[KageSora]

No, that's actually racial prejudice. White folks are in a place of power, and thus cannot be oppressed. Racism is a systematic oppression of a marginalized group.

 

Now, white people can suffer from racial prejudice, which is a result of racism against the oppressed group. That is different and should not be equated with actual racism.

I think the issues is that many people feel racism = discrimination based on race.

 

Normally I see the terms like "systematic racism" or "institutionalized racism" or some such similar term used to describe the idea of systematic oppression based on race, while just plain racism is used to describe any incident where some kind of discrimination is made based on race regardless of the race of the victim.

 

To many of these people, they're not going to realize you're making a distinction between negative acts based in race in general and systematic oppression based on race. Same with sexism, and most discriminatory -isms, really.

 

Now, in the context you mentioned, yeah, they're facing just "basic" racial discrimination, not the systematic stuff. I mean, it's not like they're living in a place where white people don't have the power and are in the minority.

[Mondat]

@Shiny Hazard Sign

Racism against a black man is not equal to, and will not ever be equal to, racial prejudice against a white person.

(...)

Racism lies in government and social constructs. That's when a group of people are targeted by policies (state wide genocide), laws (segregation), rape, job opportunities, economic opportunities, education opportunities, police brutality, etc unfairly because of their skin color or perceived racial background. White people are not victims of this, they are perpetrators of this.

I haven't read all the entries in this thread, but I would like to know what you'd have to say in terms of Nazi-Germany and the mass killings of (caucasian) Jews. Antisemitism is a form of racism.

As you said yourself,

History is incredibly significant in this discussion, and should not be ignored because we white people want to play the victim.

I cannot agree with the FB statement "there is no such thing as racism against white folks" and it's like a slap in the face. I am white and live in Japan and let me assure you, there is racism.

 

Your example of a double standard is not an actual double standard. "Cracker" is in no way a word that reinforces racism against an oppressed group. The "N" word, however, is an incredibly derogatory word. Do white people really get up in arms about being called cracker? Really? Since when was it used to dehumanize and invalidate an entire group of people?

Any insult is bad. I, as a German, do not like being called "Kraut". I also do not like it when somebody calls Japanese "Japs". I am not going to appreciate it if my future children are called "Krautjaps". And you can be sure I won't stay quiet if a Japanese calls somebody the N word.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Mondat

[7Deadly$ins]

@Shiny Hazard Sign

 

I haven't read all the entries in this thread, but I would like to know what you'd have to say in terms of Nazi-Germany and the mass killings of (caucasian) Jews. Antisemitism is a form of racism.

As you said yourself,

 

I cannot agree with the FB statement "there is no such thing as racism against white folks" and it's like a slap in the face. I am white and live in Japan and let me assure you, there is racism.

 

 

Any insult is bad. I, as a German, do not like being called "Kraut". I also do not like it when somebody calls Japanese "Japs". I am not going to appreciate it if my future children are called "Krautjaps". And you can be sure I won't stay quiet if a Japanese calls somebody the N word.

Jews are considered their own race, so the skin color doesn't really matter in this case. Many times throughout history skin color and racial hate have failed to line up. It's not always, so to speak, black and white. When she says racism against whites, she means in white-dominated areas. The logic is that the people in power can't be discriminated against, so although they're a minority elsewhere, that's unrelated. In Japan it's different, because you ARE the minority there.

[Alpha1]

I'd say more women have degrees because there is no high paying entry level job for women like there is for men except for stripping and prostitution.

 

During WWII, women proved that they could do "men's" work. There's always the military. If you stay for twenty years, you get a life time pension. They also start out at the top in income for their age group.

 

Do you know why there are more women who get degrees? Because unless they are educated, they are passed over in favor of males for job opportunities. The pressure to get a career is high in females because otherwise they are expected to become stay-at-home moms. That has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with sexism.

 

Well, there have been several explanations for it. For one, women have been doing better in school for decades (better habits, more studying). The APA has found they do better in all subjects at all ages around the world.

 

Wouldn't males also have a drive? It's apparent in jobs like nursing where a significant portion of CRNA's are male. We know that the lower the family income, the greater the disparity between men and women attending college. And we know that the college educated tend to marry other college educated people. Higher incomes, less divorce, etc.

 

How are they passed over? Women aren't going for top positions because they have made a choice that the alternatives were better than simply thinking CEO = power = happiness.

 

Look at the recent Sterling case. He's paying black players millions because blacks do well at basketball. If you're a better candidate, it's likely you'll get picked because $$$. We also have equal opportunity employment.

 

However, you could say the same for PoC. There is a push to gain degrees and get higher education simply because they need it in order to get sustainable jobs. White middle class men are favored in the job force even when they don't have high levels of education.

 

If they have a similar history or a lack of, then yes, they probably wouldn't want to risk it. Similar to what companies are doing now for anyone that has been long-term unemployed. There is a problem with felonies for drug possession which hinders them. That should be dealt with obviously since that's a big obstacle.

 

You're also bringing up other issues that have nothing to do with racism. Ableism, body type stigma, and poverty. There are all factors that have to be taken into consideration. You know what still makes white people privileged in these situations? Because compared to a PoC with the exact same issues, the white person will still be favored.

 

Yes, but the point was that I find it ridiculous that people always throw around that "check your privilege, you're white/male" thing. There's much more about the individual than skin color or gender.

 

Yes, and good thing too. That doesn't mean that this power still doesn't work against minorities, though.

 

It isn't always good. The college graduation rates are abysmal as is, so it can be detrimental placing a black student who scores lower in the university when over 65 percent of them will fail to graduate. Many of the blacks who benefited were from middle and upper class backgrounds, while displacing poorer whites and Asians.

 

History is incredibly significant in this discussion, and should not be ignored because we white people want to play the victim.

 

But it's not being ignored. Racial prejudice against blacks in the US was widely accepted until the 1960s and has since become far less prevalent.

 

In U.S., 87% Approve of Black-White Marriage, vs. 4% in 1958

 

 

Thanks dear. I understand how difficult this can be. I've been called all sorts of horrible names just for trying to discuss this with people in my college, and it's frankly terrifying how some people react to this. I wish you well too! I will always listen to PoC about these things and fight for their right to be heard.

 

Aww, I looked at the link. Shiny's not dumb.

 

To many of these people, they're not going to realize you're making a distinction between negative acts based in race in general and systematic oppression based on race. Same with sexism, and most discriminatory -isms, really.

 

Because what does the old white men in the 0.1% have to do with a black person beating a white person over his race? The 47% aren't the one's in power.

 

In Japan it's different, because you ARE the minority there.

 

What does it mean if there's no longer a majority? Here in CA, the Latinos have surpassed us.

[Mondat]

Jews are considered their own race, so the skin color doesn't really matter in this case. Many times throughout history skin color and racial hate have failed to line up. It's not always, so to speak, black and white. When she says racism against whites, she means in white-dominated areas. The logic is that the people in power can't be discriminated against, so although they're a minority elsewhere, that's unrelated. In Japan it's different, because you ARE the minority there.

Jews are considered their own race for anti-discrimination laws, but they are not a race. Nazis declared jews to be an inferior race. The thing is, I cannot convert into "Asian", but Asians, Blacks and White etc. can become jews.

 

And yes, the skin color matters to me because from what I read Shiny Hazard Sign makes it sound like racism against white people doesn´t happen/exist ("White people are not victim of this") - oh, but there was something like Holocaust, in a white-dominated area - or that racism against white people will never be like racism against black people.

Not everyone on this forum lives in the USA. This thread is not called "Racism, for US citizens only".

In Japan it's different, because you ARE the minority there.

Doesn´t change the fact that everbody can encounter racism and discrimination!

[7Deadly$ins]

I was just explaining what the argument stance is more clearly.

 

Anyway I'm not an expert on Jews, but I thought that there was a distinction between ethnic Jews and converts, or something.

[hazeh]

I still think you are trying to make things more 'complicated' than they should be by changing the definition. Not to mention it reeks of making it so only whites can be 'racist' and everyone else get, essentially, a free pass to be racist against them and not get labeled as racist. That's the problem with changing it and that's wrong.

 

'Cracker' is still used as a derogatory term against whites, Shiny. That's the point I was making. Why should one derogatory term be 'acceptable' while another is not (and let's not forget that many blacks use the N word on each other, which always makes me scratch my head)?

 

Now, I'm not saying I don't recognize the oppression minorities go through, but let's be realistic here. Blacks want to be seen as equals to whites right? Then why should acts of racism toward them get 'preferable treatment' (aka actually called racism)? Why is a white on black crime called a hate crime, but a black on white is not? They are both hate crimes! (it's similar to in the case of domestic assault where if a woman hits a man in front of the cops, the cops do nothing, but the moment the man hits back in self defense, he goes to jail: another one of those double standards, but this is for a different thread).

 

Just as whites are being told it's not OK to discriminate against blacks, blacks should be told it's not OK to discriminate against whites. They should be treated the same!

I don't care if it's more complicated. I stand for what's right, and what is not right is trying to equalize racial prejudice with racism.

You sound as though I'm trying to say racial prejudice isn't a bad thing. I'm not saying that. A lot of people get hurt because of racial prejudice, and I understand that completely. It's not okay. But in order to truly recognize and address this issue, we have to address the underlying issue first-- which is REAL racism against the minorities.

 

 

Because "cracker" does not have the history and violence behind it that the "n" word does. That is why it is more "acceptable"-- or a better description at least, less derogatory. (honestly who gets offended by being called a cracker anyway? crackers are yummy) As for letting PoC call each other those words, they are well within those rights to use it for each other if they wish. They get to reclaim their own slurs, we do not get to use those slurs against them. Such as Gay people can reclaim "**" and "dyke" if they so wish, but non LGBTQIA+ cannot.

 

 

A hate crime is a hate crime, yes. I never said it wasn't. But that still does not make it racism.

 

I haven't read all the entries in this thread, but I would like to know what you'd have to say in terms of Nazi-Germany and the mass killings of (caucasian) Jews. Antisemitism is a form of racism.

 

No, it is not. I'm actually a little offended that you would bring the Jewish into this. All of the Jewish people that I know, including my own family, do not appreciate being called a separate race because that was how they were classified by Nazi Germany.

Besides, they were not persecuted for being white. They weren't even considered white, which was the entire problem. So I don't understand why you mentioned them.

 

I cannot agree with the FB statement "there is no such thing as racism against white folks" and it's like a slap in the face. I am white and live in Japan and let me assure you, there is racism.

That is different. Japan and the US have completely different histories dealing with racial prejudice and racism, so they really can't be compared. I don't speak for another countries' social norms because I only know that of the United States, where white people are in a position of power and have been since they settled from Europe.

 

 

And insults are completely different. Having your feelings hurt because someone called you a cracker does not amount to the racism that affects the daily lives of racial minorities in the US. I am far more concerned about the well-being of a PoC than I am the feelings of a white person.

 

 

Doesn´t change the fact that everbody can encounter racism and discrimination!

That depends where you are and what kind of society you live in. It feels like no one is actually taking the time to understand what I'm saying and instead getting up in arms because I said white people in America can't be victims of racism. They CAN be victims of racial prejudice! Any form of discrimination that you give me an example of against white people is RACIAL PREJUDICE.

I cannot stress this enough.

[MedievalMystic]

I stand for what's right, and what is not right is trying to equalize racial prejudice with racism.

 

 

 

Full Definition of RACE PREJUDICE

 

:  prejudice against or hostility toward people of another race or color or of an alien culture

 

 

 

Sounds like racism to me.

 

 

"You nasty *! I wish all you whites, asians, hispanics, jews, pink polka dot people, etc, etc, etc, would DIE right now! I hate all of you, you sorry MF's!!"

 

"That's offensive"

 

"Why? It's not racism for God's sake! It's just racial prejudice. We're cool."

 

Uh huh.

[hazeh]

 

Sounds like racism to me.

 

 

"You nasty *! I wish all you whites, asians, hispanics, jews, pink polka dot people, etc, etc, etc, would DIE right now! I hate all of you, you sorry MF's!!"

 

"That's offensive"

 

"Why? It's not racism for God's sake! It's just racial prejudice. We're cool."

 

Uh huh.

Racism = Systematic oppression and discrimination of a marginalized race

 

Racial prejudice = individual attitudes of discrimination and prejudice against people of a certain race

 

 

They may coincide, but they are not the same. Racial prejudice is a product of racism. Minorities face both; majorities face only one as a result of the racism they perpetuate.

 

 

What you gave as an example is racial prejudice. That doesn't make it okay. You're trying to twist my words to seem as if racial prejudice is not a bad thing.

Which I have stated, over and over and over again, that it is a bad thing. But you cannot compare a white person's experiences with racial prejudice to a minority person's experiences with every day government and societal oppression. That is why there is a distinction.

[Slaskia]

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm]

 

noun

 

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

 

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

 

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism?s=t

 

#2 what you are talking about, right Shiny? However, the other two definitions are more general, which should not be forgotten, which you seem to be trying to do (especially #3).

 

And I still don't like the idea of 'only whites can be racist' (at least in the US), simply because they are a majority (they are actually a minority in some places now: do they lose their 'racist' title in those areas?). But, it seems I am not going to convince you that what you are trying to do I believe would be bad over all. Either everyone can be a racist, or no one can.

 

On a similar note. The word(s) itself (racist/racism), is starting to lose it's impact/meaning overall, because the 'race card' has been pulled way too often and over stupid things. For instance, if you so much as disagree with Obama...you are highly likely to be labeled a racist even though for many people, the color of his skin is not factor in not liking him or his policies.

[Rosedamai]

I was NOT going to come into this thread but I am SUPER tired of the people here using dictionary definitions.

For example, this is the definition of the word carrot as defined by the dictionary

car·rot  [kar-uht]  Show IPA

noun

1. a plant, Daucus carota,  of the parsley family, having pinnately decompound leaves and umbels of small white or yellow flowers, in its wild form a widespread, familiar weed, and in cultivation valued for its edible root.

2. the nutritious, orange to yellow root of this plant, eaten raw or cooked.

 

There are purple and white carrots.

 

But apparently according to the almighty dictionary they aren't orange to yellow so they aren't carrots. Okay.

 

The word(s) itself (racist/racism), is starting to lose it's impact/meaning overall,

You act like people ever cared when you could have literally shouted that at say a slaveowner in the 1800s and he wouldn't have given a damn, not clutch his chest and talk about what a righteous person he was.

Actions are more important than words and I personally do not care about people who go on doing racist actions while saying that they aren't racist and the word is offensive to them.

I've seen Neo-Nazis say that they aren't racist, soooooo....

Edited May 16, 2014 by ylangylang

[Alpha1]

I was NOT going to come into this thread but I am SUPER tired of the people here using dictionary definitions.

For example, this is the definition of the word carrot as defined by the dictionary

 

FYI, the courts even use urban dictionary. What do you expect? To just argue without backing it up? Yes, dictionaries can have varying descriptive definitions that aren’t necessarily applicable. Case in point, the YEC’s love to use the dictionary to say that evolution is “just a theory” and that it’s a "religion" in the same sense as Christianity and Islam are. But there’s little reason to be upset that people aren’t accepting a one-sided definition of a word that’s far from mainstream.

 

You act like people ever cared when you could have literally shouted that at say a slaveowner in the 1800s and he wouldn't have given a damn, not clutch his chest and talk about what a righteous person he was.

Actions are more important than words and I personally do not care about people who go on doing racist actions while saying that they aren't racist and the word is offensive to them.

 

In society today, it’s unacceptable, so they’re going to be defensive. That’s obvious. Slaskia is saying that it gets thrown for anything perceived as negative towards blacks. If you thought Zimmerman was innocent, for example, you were a racist to some. If you thought there was only a trial because Martin was black, you were a racist.

 

[Rosedamai]

In society today, it’s unacceptable

Lol. Not when websites like this are still up

warning: racism, slurs, this is a FAMOUS white supremacist site

 

Please do more to ERADICATE actual white power/neo-nazi groups instead of talking about ~the race card~ which by the way, I'm tired of all of you framing racism as solely being against Black people when people of other races go through it too. You're essentially making out Black people as this loud angry minority which is a stereotype that they get thrown at in their faces so.....

 

Anyways, I'm tired of this thread already and how everyone's angry about supposed reverse racism when white power groups like the KKK, neo-nazis and white supremacist groups are making a comeback. Bye bye.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ylangylang

[Mondat]

@Shiny

No, it is not. I'm actually a little offended that you would bring the Jewish into this. All of the Jewish people that I know, including my own family, do not appreciate being called a separate race because that was how they were classified by Nazi Germany.

Besides, they were not persecuted for being white. They weren't even considered white, which was the entire problem. So I don't understand why you mentioned them.

If you had read what I wrote to 7Deadly$ins,

Mondat: Jews are considered their own race for anti-discrimination laws, but they are not a race. Nazis declared jews to be an inferior race. The thing is, I cannot convert into "Asian", but Asians, Blacks and White etc. can become jews.

you would know that I didn't call Jews a separate race.

And this is exactly why I have a problem when you say "White people are not a victim of racism".

I quote you:

Racism against a black man is not equal to, and will not ever be equal to, racial prejudice against a white person.

(...)

Racism lies in government and social constructs. That's when a group of people are targeted by policies (state wide genocide), laws (segregation), rape, job opportunities, economic opportunities, education opportunities, police brutality, etc unfairly because of their skin color or perceived racial background. White people are not victims of this, they are perpetrators of this.

Nazis declared themself to be superior and Jews to be a inferior race, something which is racism and the whole problem. So when you say that white people are not a victim of racism, you clearly seem to forget the Holocaust!?

 

That depends where you are and what kind of society you live in. It feels like no one is actually taking the time to understand what I'm saying and instead getting up in arms because I said white people in America can't be victims of racism. They CAN be victims of racial prejudice! Any form of discrimination that you give me an example of against white people is RACIAL PREJUDICE.

I cannot stress this enough.

I am not going to look into dictionaries and do not care much about defining words etc., and I cannot say much about the USA because I am not living there BUT....

I do think that dismissing racist behaviour by black people in the US as "racial prejudice" only is not correct and dangerous.

 

MedievalMystic's example

"You nasty censorkip.gif*! I wish all you whites, asians, hispanics, jews, pink polka dot people, etc, etc, etc, would DIE right now! I hate all of you, you sorry MF's!!"

is racial prejudice, I'd agree.

 

I'd say racism is "racial prejudice + having POWER" and goes beyond racial prejudice. And it has absolutely nothing to do with who had power first.

Racial prejudice:

Mr. Clark sees his new neighbour Mr. Smith - who happens to be black - and hates it & is afraid Mr. Smith is going to rob him "because he heard the stories about horrible black people and what they do" & thinks all black people are the same.

Racism:

Mr. Clark thinks that black people should not have the same rights as white people. Mr. Clark doesn't let Mr. Smith live in one of his apartments because Mr. Smith happens to be black. Mr. Clark also tells Mr. Smith he is going to make Smith's life a hell if he ever decides to move into his neighbourhood. Mr. Clark calls other landlords and warns them of Smith, the black man. Mr. Smith ends up without apartments in this area and has to look for other places. Mr. Clark goes to his friend Mr. Butcher who is policeman so the policeman keeps an eye on Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith's children are not allowed to visit a school nearby because they're black. Because of Mr. Clark's influence and because many people think the same as Mr. Clark, Mr. Smith cannot get a job.

 

So...what about the areas where white people have become a minority...? Districts where you can find many black people?

I do not say that this is what is definitely happening in every "black" district, but I am pretty sure other people have heard "some things" like I did (not only in the US but in England too).

- it is dangerous for whites to walk through that area

- jobs are preferably given to black people

- apartments are preferably given to black people

- Black people build secret organisations that say "We the blacks are made to rule! crackers!"

- there are no whites to be seen in churches in these districts

- Whites cannot enter some nightclubs

(...)

 

Remember Shiny what you wrote yourself?

Racism lies in government and social constructs. That's when a group of people are targeted by policies (state wide genocide), laws (segregation), rape, job opportunities, economic opportunities, education opportunities, police brutality, etc unfairly because of their skin color or perceived racial background.

 

Exchanging the white Mr. Clark with black Mr. Smith, I do not see any difference and reading the sentence

I am far more concerned about the well-being of a PoC than I am the feelings of a white person.

does make me think "oh well, there's this person who gives another human being more thoughts because of their skin color - perhaps it explains their stance."

 

I have nothing more to add. Peace~

[Rosedamai]

I am far more concerned about the well-being of a PoC than I am the feelings of a white person.

does make me think "oh well, there's this person who gives another human being more thoughts because of their skin color - perhaps it explains their stance."

 

...you mean feelings > safety?.......

[hazeh]

@Shiny

 

If you had read what I wrote to 7Deadly$ins,

 

you would know that I didn't call Jews a separate race.

And this is exactly why I have a problem when you say "White people are not a victim of racism".

I quote you:

 

Nazis declared themself to be superior and Jews to be a inferior race, something which is racism and the whole problem. So when you say that white people are not a victim of racism, you clearly seem to forget the Holocaust!?

 

 

I am not going to look into dictionaries and do not care much about defining words etc., and I cannot say much about the USA because I am not living there BUT....

I do think that dismissing racist behaviour by black people in the US as "racial prejudice" only is not correct and dangerous.

 

MedievalMystic's example

 

is racial prejudice, I'd agree.

 

I'd say racism is "racial prejudice + having POWER" and goes beyond racial prejudice. And it has absolutely nothing to do with who had power first.

Racial prejudice:

Mr. Clark sees his new neighbour Mr. Smith - who happens to be black - and hates it & is afraid Mr. Smith is going to rob him "because he heard the stories about horrible black people and what they do" & thinks all black people are the same.

Racism:

Mr. Clark thinks that black people should not have the same rights as white people. Mr. Clark doesn't let Mr. Smith live in one of his apartments because Mr. Smith happens to be black. Mr. Clark also tells Mr. Smith he is going to make Smith's life a hell if he ever decides to move into his neighbourhood. Mr. Clark calls other landlords and warns them of Smith, the black man. Mr. Smith ends up without apartments in this area and has to look for other places. Mr. Clark goes to his friend Mr. Butcher who is policeman so the policeman keeps an eye on Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith's children are not allowed to visit a school nearby because they're black. Because of Mr. Clark's influence and because many people think the same as Mr. Clark, Mr. Smith cannot get a job.

 

So...what about the areas where white people have become a minority...? Districts where you can find many black people?

I do not say that this is what is definitely happening in every "black" district, but I am pretty sure other people have heard "some things" like I did (not only in the US but in England too).

- it is dangerous for whites to walk through that area

- jobs are preferably given to black people

- apartments are preferably given to black people

- Black people build secret organisations that say "We the blacks are made to rule! crackers!"

- there are no whites to be seen in churches in these districts

- Whites cannot enter some nightclubs

(...)

 

Remember Shiny what you wrote yourself?

 

 

Exchanging the white Mr. Clark with black Mr. Smith, I do not see any difference and reading the sentence

 

does make me think "oh well, there's this person who gives another human being more thoughts because of their skin color - perhaps it explains their stance."

 

I have nothing more to add. Peace~

On the whole Nazi thing:

 

No, you don't understand what I said. Antisemitism is not an example of "white people going through racism". It is an example of a group that was categorized as a separate race because the Germans believed they were inferior.

i.e., they were NOT considered white. So no, they experienced racism because they were treated as non-whites, thus, they were not discriminated against because they "were white". According to Nazi Germany, they were Not White. Which is why they were victims of racism.

 

 

 

About white population minorities:

Just because they are physically in an AREA of the United States that happens to have more of one race population than another, does not automatically make them a "racial minority". White people have the entire society of our entire country skewed in their favor. Living in a "black" neighborhood does not change that.

- it is dangerous for whites to walk through that area

- jobs are preferably given to black people

- apartments are preferably given to black people

- Black people build secret organisations that say "We the blacks are made to rule! crackers!"

- there are no whites to be seen in churches in these districts

- Whites cannot enter some nightclubs

(...)

 

Before we go into this further, everyone needs to sit back and think about this for a moment.

Ask yourself, "Why?"

 

Why would white people fear for their safety in a majority PoC neighborhood? Well, besides the fact that this might just be incorrect simply because "oh black people, they're out to get me!", we need to address the issue as to why PoC would even want to attack a white person. Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the decades of abuse, terrorism, murder, and discrimination that PoC have faced at the hands of white people? I dunno, if I was apart of a group that had been oppressed for years, I'd probably be pretty pissed off too. These areas aren't perfect metropolises that bar white people from entering just because.

 

Why are jobs preferably given to PoC over white people in this area? It is more than likely because this area is stricken by high rates of poverty. Why? Because racial minorities are victims of racism, they have much higher rates of poverty and thus live in areas and communities that they can afford. Thus, if there are jobs in this community that are available, it is completely understandable that they will favor someone of a minority because it is MUCH HARDER for them to find a job in the first place. Should they leave that town, those people that get the jobs over the white people would probably not find any other work. This is an affect of racism, and thus what white people experience in this scenario is Racial Prejudice.

 

The same goes with the apartments. PoC have been murdered countless times simply for being PoC in a country that perpetuates racism. I cannot blame them for wanting communities within themselves for a safe place. Again, if I was apart of a group that had been treated like that for years (and still does), I would not want someone who was apart of the oppressing group to be living near me. Until the racism against the PoC can be addressed, you cannot expect that their reactions to white people will change.

 

Also I have never heard of these secret "superior black people" groups, ever. I have a hard time even believing that that is even true and not made up by white people to help them feel victimized.

But, if for some reason they DO exist, they are so few and far between that it has no affect whatsoever.

 

Why would their be so white people in the churches in these areas? This is more than likely a left over result from segregation. These areas, as well, have been populated by PoC because those were the areas they had to live in. Back during segregation, they were not allowed in White Churches, so they made their own. Every PoC Church that I've ever heard of has been accepting to white people, but the fact of the matter is that white people simply don't go there. And, if they are made to feel unwelcome, think about why. PoC are entitled to a safe place because they've been so hurt during US history. White people don't need to invade their safe space (because every space is a white safe space, basically), so I don't really care whether or not white people are welcome there in the first place. That's still racial prejudice, not racism.

 

White cannot enter some nightclubs-- And for a good reason. White people rape non-white people at such a huge proportion. Native American women make up for the highest statistic in rape with African American women to follow. I can only suspect that this "policy" (it's not even a real policy, mind you) is to keep them safe. Again, safe spaces for minorities is far more important than a white person being able to go anywhere they want just because they want to.

 

 

No matter where you go in the US, white people still have the power. They are still in control. They control our politics, our media, our economy, our laws. And since society gives them that power even today, they cannot fall victim to a system that is put in place to secure their well being over a minority's.

 

Also your last sentence doesn't make much sense to me, so I'll reiterate.

 

I care more about making sure that PoC are taken care of than making sure a white person's feelings aren't hurt.

 

 

 

 

 

And yes-- do not say "pull the race card". There is no race card. There is real, racial issues that surround everything, every day, that PoC face. The phrase "pulling the race card" is a cop out so that white people don't have to deal with the fact that racism permeates basically everything.

(For example; yes, a lot of people don't like Obama simply because he is black. I don't know of any person that has ever told another person that they are racist simply because they don't like the President's policies)

[Syaoransbear]

I dunno, if I was apart of a group that had been oppressed for years, I'd probably be pretty pissed off too.

You are, you're female

[hazeh]

You are, you're female

Well yes, but I meant specifically racial. They are two different struggles c:

 

(but a lot of the same thought can be applied there, as well)

[Alpha1]

Lol. Not when websites like this are still up

warning: racism, slurs, this is a FAMOUS white supremacist site

 

It’s the internetz.

 

https://www.beastforum/com/

 

warning: beastiality

 

I'm tired of all of you framing racism as solely being against Black people when people of other races go through it too.

 

Because blacks are doing far worse as a group, and there’s the history that goes behind it, which many argue is the culprit for why they lag behind in education, employment, etc. That’s why the focus is on them. There hasn’t even been that much discussion, since Shiny brought this to the thread. I mean, you could bring up what you think other groups face and see if others respond.

 

You're essentially making out Black people as this loud angry minority which is a stereotype that they get thrown at in their faces so.....

 

I’ve never painted them with such a generalization, and this criticism isn’t going to shut down the fact that arguments can be flawed, and it will be pointed out by someone. Moreover, we’ve been arguing with Shiny about this; she’s making the argument for them. One of the arguments commonly used is that blacks are being killed, and it’s insinuated that it’s our fault. The fact of the matter is that over ninety percent of all black homicide victims are killed by other blacks, and they share a disproportionate amount of homicides for their population size. It can be tiresome arguing over their grievances, which is why I decided just to move on for now instead of responding to Shiny’s newest posts.

 

Anyways, I'm tired of this thread already and how everyone's angry about supposed reverse

 

I’m not angry, which I find amusing because I've recently seen that you've made the same comment in another thread.

 

racism when white power groups like the KKK, neo-nazis and white supremacist groups are making a comeback. Bye bye

 

Come back to me when it looks like this again.

 

KKK

Edited May 16, 2014 by Alpha1