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On 5/25/2018 at 11:40 AM, hazeh said:

So, the NFL just passed a policy that says that players aren't allowed to kneel or sit during the National Anthem. They may stay in the locker room, but on the field they're forced to stand. 

Which... I find extremely unsettling. This is basically forced nationalism, which is extremely no bueno. I mean, schools can't even force kids to stand and partake in the Pledge of Allegiance, even if they threaten punishment-- they tried to do so to me as a kid, and my moms would not have it. So how is it that an entire multi-billion organization can do so to the players without infringing on the right to peaceful protest? I'm glad at least that I don't even like sports, much less football. 

Considering it has nothing to do with veterans or respect for the military, I can't see this anything other than a decision born of intent to silence those who are protesting against police brutality and racism (since that's the purpose of it to begin with!). 

 

Thoughts? Opinions? 

 

12 hours ago, StormWizard212 said:

 

This is absolutely baffling. I honestly don't have words. 

 

 

I can't either. Those involved in this protesting have done so subtly, quietly and respectfully. They are not causing disruption, conflict or violence/danger. On that basis alone, I can't see any reasonable justification for this policy. But the origins of this movement make its implementation absolutely deplorable. It's a kick in the teeth to anyone of colour and the ultimate statement of the NFL's lack of solidarity and support for racial equality. 

 

 

I worry that this policy will have a ripple effect in schools/colleges. I remember reading reports a while ago about schools trying to strong-arm students into standing, under threat of expulsion or removal from teams, of scholarships, etc. This policy sets a precedent for schools/colleges to follow suit and enforce similar regulations themselves. Even if they technically aren't allowed to, it hasn't stopped them from trying in the past. The threat of consequences, whether they can actually be carried out or not, is often enough to deter people from acting, anyway. 

 

I honestly don't even know what to think. This degree of aggressive nationalism is seriously unsettling. 

 

I agree with you both entirely.

 

1 hour ago, Raldoron said:

Racism is natural.

Most of the time people just project the misfitings of a particular person/group to the entirety of similar people. Ancient.

Sometimes this seems intuitive.

 

But these days people make more fuss out of it for the sake of fuss. Very useful to make people bicker or get oppression points and benefits for thyself. Distasteful.

 

Racism is nasty and needs to be stamped out. It is not at ALL natural, it is engendered by this sort of lunatic behaviour. My children didn't even NOTICE that some of their friends were black. People TEACH children that some people are different from other people, and that's where it all starts.  People can all fit together and stop being aggressive about perceived differences. We are all people and that is absolutely all there is to it. Why should one race or group of people be less privileged than another, just because of their colour or whatever.  The rise in racism, along with the rise in populist politics, is really frightening. I lived through the days of apartheid. Of signs in English windows reading "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish". Who wants to go back to that. As for the list of Sundown towns I just saw on line - that is so depressing I have not the wards to express how I feel. Trump is in HUGE part responsible for legitimising racism, making all this socially acceptable after we were actually starting to get somewhere in stamping it all out.

 

"Immigrants aren't people, they are animals" he said the other day.... He, and other racists like him, are the animals.

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21 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

 

I agree with you both entirely.

 

 

Racism is nasty and needs to be stamped out. It is not at ALL natural, it is engendered by this sort of lunatic behaviour. My children didn't even NOTICE that some of their friends were black. People TEACH children that some people are different from other people, and that's where it all starts.  People can all fit together and stop being aggressive about perceived differences. We are all people and that is absolutely all there is to it. Why should one race or group of people be less privileged than another, just because of their colour or whatever.  The rise in racism, along with the rise in populist politics, is really frightening. I lived through the days of apartheid. Of signs in English windows reading "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish". Who wants to go back to that. As for the list of Sundown towns I just saw on line - that is so depressing I have not the wards to express how I feel. Trump is in HUGE part responsible for legitimising racism, making all this socially acceptable after we were actually starting to get somewhere in stamping it all out.

 

"Immigrants aren't people, they are animals" he said the other day.... He, and other racists like him, are the animals.

 

Had the NFL not touched this snake pit, they would have had the majority of their players not protesting, with only a handful still choosing to, and their record profits not being touched at all. Instead, they chose to appease the vocal minority of fans who can't stand to see black people taking a stand (or a knee) over the very real problem in America of police brutality and discrimination against communities of color and enacted a policy that forces players to either acknowledge the national anthem or stay in the locker room. This will be the first year in my life I don't follow the NFL or watch any games, and I feel better already for it. I used to be a fan, but to do so now requires some cognitive dissonance on my part I don't feel like trying to justify, and in my heart know it's not right.

 

Racism does need to be stamped out, but to do so would require not just action on the part of our leaders, but also on ourselves. Our leadership is a reflection of who we are, and we need to do some soul-searching to determine what within ourselves has allowed us to hold these beliefs and opinions. Until people acknowledge we have created this problem, whether consciously or unconsciously, things will not change. Ever. Inner change is needed, love and acceptance of all things, before we can truly see progress as a race.

 

 

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13 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Had the NFL not touched this snake pit, they would have had the majority of their players not protesting, with only a handful still choosing to, and their record profits not being touched at all. Instead, they chose to appease the vocal minority of fans who can't stand to see black people taking a stand

 

Yes, this is the biggest issue I have with this policy. The protesting was doing no harm whatsoever. There is nothing motivating this policy beyond pride and bigotry - and that is disgusting. 

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On 5/26/2018 at 6:03 PM, Fuzzbucket said:

 

It is not at ALL natural, it is engendered by this sort of lunatic behaviour. My children didn't even NOTICE that some of their friends were black. People TEACH children that some people are different from other people, and that's where it all starts.  

 

I have to disagree with you just a bit. While pointing out differences can certainly cause racism, it isn't the entire reason. 

 

You are fortunate that your children didn't notice a difference, or seemed not to anyway. Neither of my children attended preschool, and so was not acquainted with other peoples as much as they might have otherwise been, so when my eldest son started kindergarten, he was telling me a story about "the dark man", a man who was I found out later a substitute teacher. He genuinely liked this gentleman, but when he explained that he was greeting the man by calling "hey dark man", I was mortified. I had to explain that saying that it might be offensive. Then I had to explain what offensive meant, then I had to explain why it could be offensive. So, to keep my son from being seen as racist (or being raised by racists) I had to teach him to be overly cautious about choosing his words. 

 

Additionally, I once overheard two ladies mocking a white mother for not knowing how to care for her biracial child's hair. I was curious to learn, because my youngest son was dating a black girl, and I didn't want to be in the same ignorant position. They seemed to get angry over my curiosity...but how am I supposed to learn how to properly care for my potential future grand babies..? 

 

Instead of denying differences, we should be teaching our children to celebrate and understand our differences. That being different isn't wrong! It would certainly be a boring world if we all came from the same mold! 

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I think we need to teach our children that people are people, end of.

 

And I assure you they didn't notice. The funniest instance was the family we visited often where the two older children were blond and blue eyed/. The couple had adopted two black children.  We were talking about adoption in general, because of a book one of them was reading, and they said they didn't know any adopted children. I said well, what about Tony and Ben ? They said they weren't adopted at all. In the end I said hadn't they noticed that they didn't look like Tris and Daniel ? LONG pause. Oh yeah - they have curly hair.

 

I don't fully buy into this we must celebrate diversity. (Understand, accept etc - absolutely, and celebrate the fact that we live in a wonderfully mixed world, but...)  Why should one child CELEBRATE the fact that they have a friend of another race? Celebrate your friend, celebrate the fun you have together, things like that. The accident of birth is not, as such, celebrateable. I am a dual national. I am proud of my adopted nationality. I took it because I felt so strongly about it. People (especially my parents...!) cannot understand that I have no particular interest in my nationality of birth. Why aren't I proud of it, they ask. Well - it just happened to me, and if anything, I am ashamed of that nationality because of the way that country is behaving. The race/nationality we are born into is just an accident of fate.

 

I think the two ladies who mocked you for asking were extremely rude, actually. Nothing to do with their race - they simply had very bad manners.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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18 hours ago, StormWizard212 said:

 

Yes, this is the biggest issue I have with this policy. The protesting was doing no harm whatsoever. There is nothing motivating this policy beyond pride and bigotry - and that is disgusting. 

Exactly. And what really gets to me is that everyone cheered and supported Tim Tebow when he took a knee to protest abortion in America. Double standard much? It really isn't about the kneeling, so that means it has nothing to do with veterans or the military. 

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I didn't hear that, hazeh. That does make it that much worse.

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On 5/28/2018 at 3:18 PM, PaintdGryphon said:

 

I have to disagree with you just a bit. While pointing out differences can certainly cause racism, it isn't the entire reason. 

 

You are fortunate that your children didn't notice a difference, or seemed not to anyway. Neither of my children attended preschool, and so was not acquainted with other peoples as much as they might have otherwise been, so when my eldest son started kindergarten, he was telling me a story about "the dark man", a man who was I found out later a substitute teacher. He genuinely liked this gentleman, but when he explained that he was greeting the man by calling "hey dark man", I was mortified. I had to explain that saying that it might be offensive. Then I had to explain what offensive meant, then I had to explain why it could be offensive. So, to keep my son from being seen as racist (or being raised by racists) I had to teach him to be overly cautious about choosing his words. 

 

Additionally, I once overheard two ladies mocking a white mother for not knowing how to care for her biracial child's hair. I was curious to learn, because my youngest son was dating a black girl, and I didn't want to be in the same ignorant position. They seemed to get angry over my curiosity...but how am I supposed to learn how to properly care for my potential future grand babies..? 

 

Instead of denying differences, we should be teaching our children to celebrate and understand our differences. That being different isn't wrong! It would certainly be a boring world if we all came from the same mold! 

1

I think what was trying to be said is that children notice differences, yes, but they don't treat differences as a bad thing - THAT is what the "taught behavior" comes from. But even then, I don't think most kids realize a "difference" unless its pointed out to them. I think a good example video of this is Everyone's Welcome by CBeebies. Basically, a bunch of kids who were friends being asked what was different about each other; the first two, a black child and a white child, had serious trouble finding even one thing different between them and ended up going with "he's better at tag" and "he's better at staying in time out".

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17 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I didn't hear that, hazeh. That does make it that much worse.

Yeah. It's come to my attention that Tebow was praying, not necessarily protesting, but honestly does it matter that much? He's still kneeling. 

 

Now, with Roseanne Barr's racist tirade on Twitter, you've got the same people calling for Kaepernick's expulsion for his silent, peaceful protest crying foul that Roseanne's show was cancelled, saying it's "impeding her first amendment rights." Of course these people don't know what the first amendment in the US is, apparently, but still-- the irony is astounding. 

 

Edit: I'll also throw my own two cents into the above conversation and say:

Racism is not genetic or natural. It's historical. It's a behavior that is taught and ingrained from a young age by people whose families were taught and raised on the same. People and kids can recognize physical and cultural differences-- and they should! We should be celebrating our unique backgrounds and appearances, not pretending we're all the same-- but that doesn't mean that the ability to discern the differences is born out of prejudice and contributing to the systemic oppression of marginalized peoples. Sometimes kids can be a little crass when they determine differences, but it's usually innocent because they don't know the historical implications. Unless, unfortunately, they're taught by their guardians to behave negatively towards people that look a certain way. But these are all opportunities to learn and grow and be better as a community for our less privileged members. 

Edited by hazeh

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Yes indeed. I well recall a boy my older daughter was friends with who got fed up with the other children's parents being - very gently, most of them - racist, in that they would look at him differently from the way they looked at their children's other friends, and he took - at the age of 7 ! - to introducing himself thus: "Hi I'm Tariq and I'm this colour because my dad comes from Trinidad."

 

And the funniest bit would be the other kids, who'd look at him as if he was nuts. "What colour," one of them actually said. Racism is taught. These kids had no idea - except what they learned from their parents' reactions.

 

We all need to be (able to be) ourselves and accept who others are for themselves. Whatever colour they are, whether or not they are missing a leg, bald from alopecia, have a hare lip....

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One of my coworkers is frequently, casually making racist comment in the lunchroom.  I won't repeat exactly what he says, but it includes making jokes about killing Middle Eastern refugees to the US because he claims they're all coming here to be terrorists anyway. 

 

I was raised in an area on the US east coast which has a very multicultural population.  As kids we would get excited about International Dance Night at school, and working in the community library I used to envy the Indian women with their beautiful saris.  I spend most of high school and college studying foreign languages because I loved finding different ways to express thoughts and cultures.  At a previous job, one of my favorite coworkers was a Muslim woman from Sudan, exactly what my current coworker was spouting off against.

 

I didn't realize how monocultural is the area I now live in until working the last two jobs.  There's a Hispanic population, but in and outside of work they keep to themselves.  So all the proud rednecks (his own term) feel free to say offensive things, and don't seem to see any problem with it.  I get angry, but I can't think of a way to object civilly because I know will lose my temper if I open my mouth.  🤬

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Pity you would lose your temper. I ALWAYS say something like "That's simply not acceptable, and I don't have to listen to racism." I would probably - as it's at work - report the offender to HR....

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