Multi Clutch- Only Gen 2 Producing Pairs Can Produce 4 Eggs

[Ruffledfeathers]

It is a fact that, except in Halloween, the number of CB dragons of a Holiday dragon which will be bred in the Hols will not change much.

 

There will be new users/those who only grabbed specific CBs that year, but I am in the belief that this is the minority.
 

Even during Halloween, I am confident bred eggs still top the CBs grabbed. 

 

However, dragons which can produce Gen 3 dragons and above exponentially increase yearly. 
 

Because of this, I propose that a clutch producing pair of CB dragons during the Holiday breeding season can maximally produce 4 at say 70% chance, 29% chance of producing 3, and 1% chance of producing just 2 in a multi clutch. 
 

Conversely, any pair which produces a Gen 3 egg and up can only maximally produce 3 eggs; maybe something like 60% chance to produce 3, 40% for 2?

Additionally, dragons which, say when paired produce a Gen 5 egg, will only ever produce 2 eggs. Note- Gen 5 is an arbitrary suggestion.

 

I feel as pretty as some are (and I myself have and breed affected dragons), unless people scanning the AP specifically want the pairing, or care not for lineages, it will take a longer time to be taken. And if it is, often it is hatched and tossed again.
 

Spaces are very very tight, and it just makes little sense to take it up with something you cannot hope to pair (at least in my view) or will never use anyway. I used to not care about lineages, much to my regret  However back then, there was much less Hol dragons on scrolls.

 

I feel that this will help with the evident, ever growing imbalance. Additionally, it should help cut the number of less popular eggs which you keep accidentally grabbing over and over, much to your insanity! At least they make good Vamp fodder

 

I am aware that higher gens or messy lineaged dragons are liked by some/useful for freezing. But, the numbers of these in circulation only seem to grow every year, because enough people breed the newer ones too; or breed their Hols with a random messy. 
 

Hopefully it will balance the scales without removing multi clutches entirely. 
 

I do not know how popular this will be, but it is obvious something needs to be done because the imbalance is becoming more and more evident every year.
 

I have no issue with higher gen dragons; I love seeing all the pretty things people create! However, their numbers grow, while 2nd Gens dwindle in comparison. Even in higher numbers, lots of people would not say no to a pretty 2nd Gen in the AP.
 

Unusual pairings may take slightly longer of course, but they are likely easier to stomach than other unusual AP grabs, especially during the low times. Plus, 2nd gen swaps are not uncommon trading requests which can be fulfilled.

 

I am personally someone who does have some higher gens to breed. I dont give a donkey if they produce just 2; hell even 1 (I wouldnt go that far tho). I can still gift/trade/keep the one, and one other user can grab the other. If there is a burning to produce 4 7th gen eggs, I am dying to know! Because I have no doubt that very few people specifically will look for that. 
 

Id much prefer 2nd Gens to be in a clutch of 4; because then that would be 4 eggs rapidly cleared away rather than 4 eggs grabbed and dropped repeatedly (happens with most high gen eggs, as well as low gen steps/spirals or messies- my Holiday Vamp experiments are such eggs).
 

I tend to always breed my prizes with hols too, so that would give someone 3-4 chances of grabbing something nice; I also see SAlts and HMs are bred too, it would spread the love a little and maybe give someone a better chance to catch one!

 

What do people think? 
 

I know the idea may be controversial and perhaps catered to certain players, but these players are the majority as far as I am aware, and honestly, it is not like there is massive competition for them in the first place. This just makes the AP selection fairer to those who want 2nd Gens. 

[HeatherMarie]

Can you explain exactly what 'imbalance' you wish to help with this suggestion? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue is here? As someone who specifically hunts for messies, I have seen *no* evidence that there are less 2nd-gens being bred, I've tossed back more than I can count this season! Is that actually an issue, less 2gs being bred? Has anyone actually seen a significant decrease in 2gs? 

 

Second question, why do you believe 2gs are more important to spread around than higher gens? When it comes to actually making and continuing holiday lineages, I would think eventually you would *want* higher gens that you can continue or breed into an already-ongoing project. There is only so much that can be done with a 2g when you are already working on plenty of lineage projects, after all. 

 

In all, I really don't see why this would be needed. This is *definitely* catering to a specific subset of players, which I don't like to begin with, but I honestly don't understand why it would even be needed in general. In theory I can understand why some people would want to cut down on the high-gen messies in the AP, but this suggestion seems to go well beyond that into cutting down on *everything* that isn't 2g. That seems to go too far. Would that actually benefit *anyone* except the small amount of players looking to start *new* lineage projects? If multi-clutching is going to be changed at all I'd much rather it just be totally done away with than so deliberately cater to only a specific type/gen of breeding. 

 

Now, in general something like this might help with the issue of holiday-wall APs staying much longer than they used to, over a week after holiday breeding has stopped lately, but that's a totally different issue that could certainly be helped in other ways. 

[Ruffledfeathers]

Multi clutches will be affected one way or another, because there will simply be too many eggs eventually. To be honest, there are much more breedable lineaged dragons than CBs. Thus theres going to be a load more in the cave than the 2nd Gens. Having more in circulation just allows players who collect them to still have a better shot at it. And the lineaged ones may have a reduction, but honestly something limiting multi clutches going to happen anyway.
 

There should still be plenty to find!

[Shadowdrake]

Have to agree with Marie that this is not a good idea because a) this favors cbs over lineages in general, and b) there may be *in total* more lineaged dragons to breed than CBs, but there are *much, much less* of individual lineages than CBs. If someone wants a 2nd gen holiday from almost any dragon breed, anyone can pop one out for them. However, there may only be one or two active players who would breed, say, a 4th-gen snow x fire gem checker, and yet for someone who wants one that would be a lot more appreciated than 8 2nd-gen snows from fire gem especially because of how we're limited to 1 gen a year. It seems cruel to favor effortless 2nd gen pairings over highly specific lineages full of hard work that took years and that people might hunt ages for.

 

I can breed siblings of this only twice a year. I wouldn't be happy if they only ever made 2 eggs.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes - sorry, but I agree with Marie and Shadowdrake. I have been collecting some fabulous 3 and 4 gen checkers from the AP, some new to me (exciting) and several filling serious holes in existing lines.

 

[pinkgothic]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

As someone who specifically hunts for messies, I have seen *no* evidence that there are less 2nd-gens being bred

I don't think that was the argument? The argument was that people have a fixed amount of CBs they can breed (at least this true with the winter holidays and Valentines) and, in doing so, can only produce a somewhat fixed amount of 2Gs, whereas the higher-gens keep multiplying (as there's no cap on them), meaning that as time goes on, you will proportionally have more higher-gen lineages that are less useful for people who don't yet have a specific lineage to match.

 

So the idea is to make the higher-gens produce, on average, fewer offspring than the CBs, to try and counter-act the effect of 2Gs getting proportionally fewer (and thus more tedious/difficult to find in the ballooning AP).

 

(I am neutral on this suggestion so far, for the record, so please don't engage with me to argue against this because I'm not going to respond, I have no skin in this game - but I wanted to try clarifying the argument, as I understood it.)

[Ruffledfeathers]

Pinkgothic does a better job of describing it than me  

 

The measure is more to counteract the effect of the multiplying higher gens, not to attack anyones play style. I am horrible at explanation, so I do apologise! 
 

I didnt consider holiday x holiday, it is a very good point! Maybe that could be taken into consideration when it comes to the clutch rules, but on the flipside, I dont want to complicate things. 
 

Thank you for the replies! Agree or disagree, thanks, its good discussion.

[HeatherMarie]

Okay, I think I understand a little better now, though I still don't agree. This seems to be assuming that all those higher-gen lineages are actually all going to be bred, which is.... A lot to assume. Sure, in theory the cap on CBs means there is some sort of maximum amount of 2gs that can possibly be bred in one holiday season. That does not, however, necessarily mean that 2gs are more valuable or more wanted, or that 2gs should take precedence over higher gens, or even that 2g vs higher-gen is actually unbalanced. There may be more higher-gens out there than CBs but that doesn't mean all those higher-gens are actually being *bred* each season. (For example, I had 140-something high-gen messy Holiday dragons that I did *not* breed this season....)

 

As I said, I see nothing to indicate that higher-gens are overtaking 2gs in any large manner, there seems to be no huge shortage of 2gs in the AP, and as such there would be no reason to do something so drastic to fix a problem that may not even be a problem at all. To me, this seems like a suggestion to combat something that *might* become a growing issue in the next handful of years but doesn't actually seem to exist as a real issue yet. Which means it doesn't actually need such a limiting and biased 'solution' yet.

[Ruffledfeathers]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

To me, this seems like a suggestion to combat something that *might* become a growing issue in the next handful of years but doesn't actually seem to exist as a real issue yet. Which means it doesn't actually need such a limiting and biased 'solution' yet.

A good point! There is no intention for it to be implemented right away, it is more of an implement if and when it becomes needed.

 

It is true not all Hols will be bred; CB and bred. But, I do believe that a lot of people like me love to breed new pairings during Holidays! Its lovely to have them grow. But I would not like the 2Gs becoming rare, it would make the season not so exciting, because I sometimes can find 2Gs which can build up a mate for higher gens. 
 

3 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

 

I can breed siblings of this only twice a year. I wouldn't be happy if they only ever made 2 eggs.

Pretty!
 

It is right, it likely wouldnt be very fair for 2 every time. I may amend how the clutch works in this hypothetical scenario. 

 

2Gs are fairy new player friendly, while higher gens can be very useful in specific situations, or inspire new lineages.
 

However, it is likely that, especially Val and Xmas 2Gs will comparatively become harder to find than 3G+. 

I breed higher gens, but I often times did not put them together by myself, i.e. they came via trade/gift. I do think its amazing the work put in for them! I would love to myself, but never find the time nor space to bring it past 4/3G.

 

Evening the playing field in the coming future is what this suggestion is for, but I am open to criticism. 

 

The specific clutch rules for 3G and up are not set in stone, but the idea was to have 2G producing pairs breed 4 eggs, to just counterbalance the eventual increase.
 

Perhaps leave it at 2Gs can get 4, 3G+ can get 3? You can still get a good number with 3, but it gives the 2Gs just a little chance to populate. Especially when coming from the newest Holiday! 
 

This solution only came into my mind when I remembered seeing something about clutches of 4 potentially disappearing in future. Something will change with clutches, I am sure of it.

Higher gens can be beautiful and are wanted. But 2Gs are as well! They just need a little extra I believe to compensate for their limited number. Could be wrong! But it may make more sense in future.

 

[Ruffledfeathers]

3 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

I'd rather see multiclutches reduced to 2 eggs (allowing thigns like SAs still abailable to regular players at all) and a 2-week breeding season (to sompensate for half the size of a multiclutch), still allowing 4 holiday eggs per parent a year but spread out over twice the time. This would also work best if accompanied by the AP tweak that would allow non-holidays to be caught instead of JUST holidays.

And no CB limit.Those eggs just sit there 90% of the last day.

 

Ahhh Id love to be rid the CB limit!

 

This is a nice idea as well. I think something like this is being discussed? 
 

This solution is going along the lines that, for whatever reason, a change like this is not implemented. I think the jury is out on it still. I would love 2 different breeds, idk if it would be changed. I would love no limit, however I am not 100% confident this will happen. Time will tell!

 

Newer players may still have issues if 2Gs become rare, which they could do, even in a no CB limit set up. The extra breeding period would be helpful coupled with no CB limit tho, no doubt. 

[DragonLady86]

The cave doesn't distinguish 2 gens vs higher ones being better or worse than the other. That's all player based and as such I do not support this suggestion.

Edited December 29, 2020 by DragonLady86
Typos

[Tini]

The number of 2gs being bred has actually gone UP in recent years because there's simply more CBs existing since the holiday biome popped up. Tons of people got old CBs, 2g hollys used to be rare as heck but now they're everywhere cause everyone can produce them. I could've maybe supported this suggestion before the biome, but not in a world where the number of CBs increases every year already.

 

If anything I wish there more from 3g+ lines, I'd rather pick up more higher gens to have an easier time continuing the line lol.

[Ruffledfeathers]

Fair enough! It is nice to know that they are well loved
 

I agree that the mix is fine at this moment.
 

I have caught 30+ Xmas dragons this year, with the intent of pairing them off by the next season, or they are already paired. On top of the 91 (roughly) pairs I already have, there will be more higher gens about. Meanwhile, Xmas CBs are at 28 dragons, and only grow by 2 yearly. 
 

You can kind of see why it does look like something can arise, eventually. Even with some people filling in missing CBs, or new users collecting them.

 

I have no issue with higher gens, they can be really good finds! I just wonder whether they will eventually dominate the AP Holiday wall, and make 2Gs comparatively rare, as they do grow because of people like me who like to create lines. I would be sad if they became a rarity as they would limit my play.

[Keileon]

While I understand the sentiment I don't support treating eggs/breedings differently just because they have a certain lineage. You can make an argument for CB pairs to be the only things to multiclutch, but then what about those higher-gen SAltkin or checker lines? Make an exception for them? But when you start fine-tuning the suggestion to make an exception for "pretty" or "desirable" lineages, you're effectively implying the game should encourage one type of lineage over another, or discourages things that are messy/inbred, which it doesn't, shouldn't, and TJ has more or less said never will.

 

I don't think that we're going to see the scenario of "so many high-gens bred they drown out the 2Gs" any time soon. Eventually down the line? Maybe, but the majority of players are unlikely to keep massbreeding literally every holiday dragon they have when we get to the point where that would be a concern. The only concern I really have, personally, with the increasing holiday population is that eventually the post-holiday walls will be big enough to get the AP to timer death, but even that isn't a pressing concern because the more dragons you have the less likely you are to breed them all.I already know people who only breed their CBs and projects on the holidays; the only reason I still breed messies to the AP is because people want freeze fodder.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Keileon
typo

[Ruffledfeathers]

This may well not work the way I thought, may as well close the thread. And its true there could be too many caveats. I imagine limits going away would probs distribute better, at least through trades and gift. 
 

Happy New Years!

[ShorahNagi]

The addition of new dragons will always being about new pairings (ex. I bred my CB solstice with equinox this year instead of their usual mates) - so 2g dragons will never be fully gone (some pairings just might become rarer in favor of new dragons).

 

Also, some people deliberately breed/hunt messy/long lineage holidays for the purpose of freezing or for whatever messy lineage they're working on (also, everyone values lineages differently and had different goals. 2g are only 'valuable' because they're a good starting point for most lineages like checkers, stairs, and spirals)

 

Personally, I see no reason to adjust how mutli-clutch works for Holiday dragons. 

[Fuzzbucket]

NOTHING should be done that prevents this kind of thing showing up - and I bet the players who got the rest of the litter would agree

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/ZFU6z

 

Like WOW !

[camelia2]

Definetely NO support. 

Why would I want less of these pretties?!

https://dragcave.net/lineage/48iye

Much of my Holidays fun is finding lineages I like or that mate some I have. A long lineage means more work and years were put into it (work that I don't have to do myself) and especially SA lines are a nice gift to find.

I like only half of each holiday species enough to want diferent 2Gs. In most cases I found 2-3 lines I love and I'm searching higher G of those

[Paradisiske]

No support. AP is not something you are entitled to get something "nice" from. AP is for users to decide to put whatever they want in it. 

[Ruby Eyes]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:34 PM, Shadowdrake said:

It seems cruel to favor effortless 2nd gen pairings over highly specific lineages full of hard work that took years and that people might hunt ages for.

Exactly.

Personally, I am always rather happy to find higher gen checkers for my holiday projects - the Ap is not just full of messies, after all. On the other hand, I have thrown back lots of 2nd gens simply because they don't match my tastes.

I am against any changes to holiday multiclutches.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

No. There are gorgeous lineages of every generation. I'm often more delighted to find a stunning 4g checker than a random 2g. 

 

It's also worth noting that while the AP holiday times have gotten lower and lower, we've never yet reached the point of death. If that DOES happen, I imagine people might change their habits and alleviate the problem... but if it STILL happens: I'd rather see a slightly lower chance of 4 egg clutches across the board. Equal reduction, not generation based reduction.

[UnicornMaiden]

No support. I don't spend years working on a beautiful holiday checker to just get one egg a year from it. Not to mention the gorgeous lineage projects I've found that wouldn't have been available if the breeder hadn't had the multiple eggs to send to the AP.

[purplehaze]

Absolutely against this!

 

I troll the AP constantly during the holiday seasons looking for nice lineages. Many times I am looking for 3G or 4G mates, sometimes higher, for eggs that I picked up from the AP during the year. I usually could not care less about 2Gs and will mostly toss them back unless they really strike me. I can breed my own 2Gs! I cannot breed those higher gen mates.

[dragongrrl]

Another no support.

 

While I love picking up 2gs in the AP, it is just as exciting to find https://dragcave.net/lineage/ZwrKC or https://dragcave.net/lineage/VrgEk. Please don't limit us in our ability to find our Holiday pretties.

[Jazeki]

On 12/30/2020 at 6:36 AM, Ruffledfeathers said:

This may well not work the way I thought, may as well close the thread. And its true there could be too many caveats. I imagine limits going away would probs distribute better, at least through trades and gift. 
 

Happy New Years!

Ruffled Feathers noted that the thread should probably be closed back in December.