Differentiated Egg for Two-Headed Dragons

[Vrack]

Basically, the idea is that the other two breeding groups have unique eggs, being smaller than the standard.  2 heads are their own breeding group, but they have the same eggs as the main group.  2 heads don't have a characteristic size difference like the other two, so a different shaped egg makes the most sense.

I think this is a great explanation of this request and what we're trying to do. Two-headed dragons aren't a different size than normal dragons, they just have a different shape. So it makes more sense for them to have a differently shaped egg than a significantly larger one.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Vrack

[Vrack]

It's been a week and no one's replied. So I'm re-posting this as a bump that doesn't make me have three posts in a row.

 

Here are the four cracking sequences that I've made:

 

They're in this order: 21, VixenDra+Deblob+Vrack, 10, 6

- 21 is an outline that is shaped very similarly to the original, it's just a little wider. Because of this, it's basically out of the running because TJ has deemed it too similar to the original.

- Vix+D is an outline that is larger than the original that has a rounded top. It's definitely different from the original egg. However, it really shouldn't be much bigger than the original because two-headed dragons aren't larger than normal ones, they just have a different shape. Which leads to...

- 10 is an outline with slightly wider dimensions than the original eggs. Its also been rounded slightly.

- 6 is an outline with the same exact dimensions as the original eggs. It's only difference is its top part has been rounded out more. This means it has a larger area while visually staying around the same size as the normal egg.

Here is the original cracking sequence for reference:

Also, here are all of the dead eggs:

 

Personally, I prefer 10 or 6. As a third choice I'd go with the one made by me, VixenDra and Deblob. Everyone, please share your opinions. Let me know if you think something should be changed with any of the sprites I've just posted, I'm more than willing to change them based on suggestions.

(The dead eggs were very rushed so they definitely still need work. They're mainly there to help give context.)

[Fiona]

I personally prefer 10. 6 would be ok. Both convey a strong visual difference from the original egg.

[Indigo_Dragon]

6 is far too subtle for me to ever pick up. Sorry.

 

I'm going with 10 just because it's nice and clear.

 

The vixendra one looks weird to me. Like it's far too big or something compared to the others and the cracking progression still looks too off kilter. I suppose I could always suck it up if that was chosen though since it IS a distinctive difference.

 

I still prefer as round as possible because that's a VERY clear difference for me, and it would make more sense that having two heads would require more width space there.

 

Also for all those who complain that round eggs "look unnatural," they don't to me. Yeah I know chicken and a lot of bird eggs are more slender and pointed, but that's to keep the eggs from rolling away - especially on an uneven surface. Some eggs from birds who lay them on cliffs are especially pointed to keep them from accidentally rolling off the edge.

 

However, if there's not as much of a need for keeping the eggs from rolling around, sayyyy they're buried in sand or rotting vegetation or a thick nest, then why is there a need for it to be pointed? It'd most likely be rounder. Study some dinosaur eggs sometimes. The great sauropods had VERY round eggs (MUCH rounder than 10) and they buried their humungous clutches in the dirt. So it's not just coastal and sea creatures that have round eggs, it's also land-walkers that never needed to be anywhere near huge bodies of water.

 

It's all a matter of... what do you expect to do with the eggs? Are you going to bury them in mounds of sand, dirt, or rotting vegetation? Are you going to stick them along leaves and stone underwater? Or are you expecting them to be more exposed in nests that require a parent sitting on them to keep them warm and to also keep them from rolling away from you because of that? The first two would produce rounder eggs, while the last one would produce pointier eggs.

 

Keep that in mind when you argue about egg shapes. It's not just "what gives room for the developing embryos inside," but also "what does the incubation environment look like and do they need to guard against accidentally rolling away?"

 

As for my credentials here, I'm an animal biologist nerd, life-long fan of dinosaurs, and have devoured shows/museum exhibits/books/research papers/magazine articles/online analysis/news articles and more about animal biology of past and present creatures from living to extinct. Part of my major project in high school was to figure out bird anatomy to understand how they can fly, and I ate up everything else I could get my hands on in relation to them - including nesting habits and the reasons behind different egg shapes.

[bluesonic1]

I'm not sure if it's worth giving this input now considering the progress that the idea has reached, but I'm very opposed to this. Not opposed to dragons getting different eggs, but opposed because the argument makes no biological sense. Twin animals are born from the same womb and even the same egg in the case of chickens, and the egg or pregnant animal is not a different shape or size. And this is a whole other creature being born alongside the original, not a 2 headed creature (there are freak occurrences of 2 headed animals being born- you can look at those if you want to be nit-picky about the circumstances but it's still the same outcome). The idea that 2 heads requires more "space" in the egg is biologically unfounded. Google "twin chickens" and you'll find videos on Youtube even of twin chicks born from a regular egg.

 

For those who are instead rooting for "different breeding groups having different eggs"- it's worth noting that while Pygmies having smaller eggs makes a lot of sense (tiny dragon, tiny egg = chicken egg vs ostrich egg), Drakes have different sized eggs because they're not technically dragons. They are cousin species to dragons. An excerpt if you will from their official breed description:

Drakes are not actually dragons, instead appearing to be some sort of distantly related cousin-species. They are similar looking, yet have their own separate characteristics that set them apart from dragons. Unlike their dragon cousins, they are not sapient or as smart.

Those 2 groups have different shaped eggs because they have a major reason for doing so, a reason that wouldn't make sense if they had regular sized eggs. It just feels like a different egg shape/size is being shoe-horned onto 2 headed dragons "just because" in this case.

Edited September 10, 2016 by bluesonic1

[Vrack]

I'm not sure if it's worth giving this input now considering the progress that the idea has reached, but I'm very opposed to this. Not opposed to dragons getting different eggs, but opposed because the argument makes no biological sense. Twin animals are born from the same womb and even the same egg in the case of chickens, and the egg or pregnant animal is not a different shape or size. And this is a whole other creature being born alongside the original, not a 2 headed creature (there are freak occurrences of 2 headed animals being born- you can look at those if you want to be nit-picky about the circumstances but it's still the same outcome). The idea that 2 heads requires more "space" in the egg is biologically unfounded. Google "twin chickens" and you'll find videos on Youtube even of twin chicks born from a regular egg.

 

For those who are instead rooting for "different breeding groups having different eggs"- it's worth noting that while Pygmies having smaller eggs makes a lot of sense (tiny dragon, tiny egg = chicken egg vs ostrich egg), Drakes have different sized eggs because they're not technically dragons. They are cousin species to dragons. An excerpt if you will from their official breed description:

 

Those 2 groups have different shaped eggs because they have a major reason for doing so, a reason that wouldn't make sense if they had regular sized eggs. It just feels like a different egg shape/size is being shoe-horned onto 2 headed dragons "just because" in this case.

I feel like Sock explains why this is useful fairly well:

Sometimes we drop RP logic so that we can have better gameplay function. I'm honestly not too worried about fighting over what is or isn't most logical, particularly when it comes to size, as we really don't have dragon sizes standardized and artist ideas of size tend to differ drastically from TJ's own ideas about size.

 

And I get that this is one of those small things that doesn't really matter and it's easy to pick on the 'logic' (when really only one two-headed artist has given us a size-canon) but I honestly don't see a fail in logic against different egg shapes. It would only be a bit odd since the other restricted breeding groups are mostly more noticeable just as different sizes. But I'm sure someone a little more studied in biology than me could come up with some explanation (other than 'biology is werid!11!!') as to why different - even larger - eggs would make sense for something that isn't particularly bigger than other dragons.

People can, and have, tried to come up with sound reasoning for why two-headed dragons would or wouldn't have different sized/shaped eggs. Twin snakes and chickens being hatched from a normal sized egg have been mentioned before. But in the end, you kind of have to kick the lore/RP logic aside and do what helps the gameplay.

 

But just for kicks, here's the biological argument that I came up with:

You really shouldn't be citing twins hatched from normal eggs as a reason for why two-headed dragons wouldn't have different eggs. The reason being, twins are a rare occurrence, they're a genetic mutation. It's not standard that every chicken egg has two chickens in it. Because of this, they haven't evolved to lay eggs that are best for growing two chicks. They don't lay larger eggs for twins because they can't lay larger eggs. Sure, there are recessive traits or mutations that could cause hens to lay larger eggs. But evolution affects a species when a trait considerably increases the chance of survival for creatures with that trait.

When hens lay eggs with twins in them the chicks might be malnourished because they had to share the egg with another chick. And maybe somewhere there's a hen with a mutation that causes her to lay eggs perfect for incubating twins. But that won't affect shape/size of chicken eggs because the majority of chickens hatch fine from an egg specifically designed through years of evolution to nourish them properly.

 

Two-headed dragons, on the other hand, only ever lay eggs that need to incubate dragons with two heads. So it makes sense that they'd evolve an egg more suitable for dragons with that trait. They need to lay eggs that can properly nourish their inhabitants because otherwise their species will die. The trait that causes dragons to lay normal sized eggs should disappear because dragons hatched from those eggs aren't nourished properly. Instead, a trait that causes dragons to lay larger/rounder eggs should become more prevalent because the dragons hatching from those eggs are healthier and so pass that trait on more.

(Of course, the size/shape of the egg isn't just about nourishment, I'm just simplifying things for this explanation.)

 

TL;DR: A two-headed dragon should have a larger/different shaped egg, not because it's a different breed or we're shoe-horning it onto them "just because." But because, based on the rules of evolution, two-headed dragons hatched from larger eggs are more likely to be healthy and to pass on the trait of laying larger/different shaped eggs.

If I've made any mistakes in describing how evolution works please let me know. As far as I can tell, everything I've written is accurate.

 

Please don't take this as an attack or anything. I just want to make sure the biological explanation that I've been following isn't wrong. If it is, I apologize.

---

It seems like people are leaning towards 10 as the best outline and cracking sequence. Are there any changes that people think should be made to it?

[Vrack]

Since some people like 10 and are a little wary of 6 I made updated sprites with the split egg pattern applied to them.

Let me know what you think:

 

Also, here are their dead eggs and cracking sequences: (which I updated a little)

 

6: 0: 10:

 

---

 

Personally, I like 10. It has a much more definitive difference to the original and I think its roundness makes sense for the lore/biological explanation that I came up with.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Vrack

[Kelkelen]

I like 10. Two thumbs up!

 

Really, it just makes sense to me, in terms of the game: each separate breeding group gets its own egg shape/size, to add visual aid in telling them apart when catching, or learning how to play.

 

And I like the idea of not widening the size range, so as to keep the AP more or less consistent.

 

If we need a "biological excuse," well...

 

* an extra head means it needs extra room in egg compared to 'typical' egg shape.

* tapered eggs make more sense for warm-blooded creatures, because they fit together better to conserve and share heat when they are sat upon during nesting. For a reptile like a snake or a turtle, the egg shape doesn't evolve for heat-sharing.

* tapered eggs evolved for nesting in high or precarious places. If nesting is done on the ground, with eggs buried or in a ground-level nest, there is less reason they'd have ever grown tapered.

* individual breed anatomy will determine shape to some extent.

* tapered eggs are more like birds' eggs, anyway. Oval or spherical eggs are more typical for reptiles. So are 'leathery' eggs that can harden into various forms.

 

So for all we know, there are many more "actual" variations in shape, and we only use these "iconic" ones for game purposes, even if each shape might be laid by several different breeds. :-D

[Vrack]

Would it be a good idea to see what TJ thinks of this now? He commented earlier in the thread which caused us to steer towards an egg shape that's more different than the one that we had settled on then. Should it be assumed that he's seen the newest outline(s) and hasn't commented because he likes them?

 

I'm not sure how to proceed now. It feels like we've found an egg that works. But I don't want to assume that we're "done" and should leave this request alone. I like to have some sense of closure. (Yes, I realize requests that aren't dragon requests don't get moved to the completed section.) I'd just love some sort of sign that I can stop posting in this request without it dying completely.

 

TL;DR: What is the next step with this request? Should it be left alone, should TJ be contacted for feedback, or does more work need to be done first?

[Obscure_Trash]

Would it be a good idea to see what TJ thinks of this now? He commented earlier in the thread which caused us to steer towards an egg shape that's more different than the one that we had settled on then. Should it be assumed that he's seen the newest outline(s) and hasn't commented because he likes them?

 

I'm not sure how to proceed now. It feels like we've found an egg that works. But I don't want to assume that we're "done" and should leave this request alone. I like to have some sense of closure. (Yes, I realize requests that aren't dragon requests don't get moved to the completed section.) I'd just love some sort of sign that I can stop posting in this request without it dying completely.

 

TL;DR: What is the next step with this request? Should it be left alone, should TJ be contacted for feedback, or does more work need to be done first?

Leave it be and just wait for other comments. It can be bumped every now and then if it hasn't gotten any posts in a while.

 

There is no official "completion" process for suggestions. They are open for comments until 1) either TJ releases the feature or announces it's already in the works and the thread is closed or, 2) TJ says no and closes the thread.

[SkyWolf25]

Personally, don't support. :0 The differently shaped eggs don't say 'dragon egg' to me, and I like how the two-heads' egg sprites look now. There's also the problem of re-spriting all of the two-headeds' egg, and while simply coloured eggs would be easier, eggs with complicated patterns or a Nexus egg would take more time then a resized egg.

I don't really see why they should look different, either. I understand that they are a different breeding group, but drakes and pygmies having different eggs is reasonal because they have noticeably different sizes. This is not the case for two-headed dragons. Wyrms, easterns, wyverns, etc. can all hatch from the same-looking egg sprite, so I don't think it's necessary to introduce a whole new differently shaped egg.

[Obscure_Trash]

There's also the problem of re-spriting all of the two-headeds' egg, and while simply coloured eggs would be easier, eggs with complicated patterns or a Nexus egg would take more time then a resized egg.

That's only seven eggs, only one of which is "complicated".

[Odeen]

I for one am not going to be wanting to resprite all of the custom cracking stages on that "only one" egg. I don't have the time, on top of already feeling like a distinctly shaped egg is unnecessary.

[Vrack]

Personally, don't support. :0 The differently shaped eggs don't say 'dragon egg' to me, and I like how the two-heads' egg sprites look now.

Could you try and explain what would say 'dragon egg' to you? I've done my best to come up with a wide variety of different shapes and sizes. Many of them were very similar to the normal dragon eggs. The first one we chose was labeled too similar by TJ which is what led us to the round egg we have now. I thought making the egg rounder would make it different enough while still looking like an egg, I guess I was wrong... If you look through the OP, can you find an egg that looks good to you? I'd be happy to try another version if you can find something you like.

I don't really see why they should look different, either. I understand that they are a different breeding group, but drakes and pygmies having different eggs is reasonal because they have noticeably different sizes. This is not the case for two-headed dragons. Wyrms, easterns, wyverns, etc. can all hatch from the same-looking egg sprite, so I don't think it's necessary to introduce a whole new differently shaped egg.

The reasoning I follow is this: Two-headeds only ever can produce two-headed dragons. So, it makes sense that they'd evolve to have eggs perfectly shaped for hatchlings that have two heads. In the case of wyrms, easterns, wyverns, etc. they all breed together. An eastern could lay an egg that hatches into a wyrm. A wyrm could lay an egg that hatches into a wyvern. Because of these dragons' ability to mix together, none of the different sub-types ever managed to evolve an egg perfectly shaped for its sub-type. The same could be said for drakes' and regular dragons' eggs: drakes only breed with drakes so they evolved a smaller egg that more efficiently takes care of drake hatchlings. Does that make sense?

TL:DR: Two-headed dragons evolved an egg that's perfect for their sub-species. Normal dragons (wyrms, easterns, wyverns, etc.) haven't because their genes all mix together so they never got the chance to evolve to lay sub-type-specific eggs.

 

I for one am not going to be wanting to resprite all of the custom cracking stages on that "only one" egg. I don't have the time, on top of already feeling like a distinctly shaped egg is unnecessary.

I've said in the past that I would be very willing to resprite eggs (and even cracking sequences) if the original spriter doesn't want to. Edited November 19, 2016 by Vrack

[Obscure_Trash]

I for one am not going to be wanting to resprite all of the custom cracking stages on that "only one" egg. I don't have the time, on top of already feeling like a distinctly shaped egg is unnecessary.

I've said in the past that I would be very willing to resprite eggs (and even cracking sequences) if the original spriter doesn't want to. I'm not exactly sure how permissions work. But I believe if TJ chooses to implement this and the original springer doesn't want to make the alterations, he has the right to find someone else to do them. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Pumpkin Halloweens are pygmies but have regular sized eggs. I personally wouldn't be too bothered about nexus' randomly having regular sized eggs as well if this is implemented.

[SkyWolf25]

Could you try and explain what would say 'dragon egg' to you? I've done my best to come up with a wide variety of different shapes and sizes. Many of them were very similar to the normal dragon eggs. The first one we chose was labeled too similar by TJ which is what led us to the round egg we have now. I thought making the egg rounder would make it different enough while still looking like an egg, I guess I was wrong... If you look through the OP, can you find an egg that looks good to you? I'd be happy to try another version if you can find something you like.

Problem is, it's the shape and ratio of the current egg that says 'dragon egg' to me, which is one of the reason I don't support this. I'd be okay with a slightly larger egg or a slightly fatter egg(compared to the original), but TJ has said that the changes are too small for those..

 

Ultimately, everyone's views are different. Some people may think the change is necessary, some may think it isn't. Some people may think the new egg doesn't look 'dragon egg' enough, some may think it does. Disagreements can happen, and while it's perfect if you can, it's okay if you can't make everyone happy. I know you're trying your best and I appreciate it. c: I just hope me and everyone else's differing opinions aren't overburdening you too much.

Unless anything unexpected happens, I'll be withdrawing from further discussions here- I doubt my opinions are going to change, but I don't think I'll be too upset if the change does happen, both of which make me unfit for extensive discussion. Initially, I only came here and posted to add some additional opinions and reasoning for TJ to consider.

Sadly, I currently don't have specific comments to give on changing the new egg's shape, so I'll go back to silence. And if TJ believes the eggs look good and change them, congratulations. Angry 'NO's aren't going to come from me, good luck with the suggestion!

 

 

That's only seven eggs, only one of which is "complicated".

I was thinking of the hooktalon egg's patterns as well, but still, I guess 7 eggs can be viewed as small to others. Sorry if I've offended you or anything though ;-;

 

 

 

 

+Some changes in paragraph placing.

Edited September 25, 2016 by SkyWolf25

[Vrack]

I made larger versions of all of the eggs as a test to see if it could be done. Should/can I post them here or should I PM them to people? They're still pretty rough (especially the Nexus' cracking sequence) but they're at least a way to see what they'd look like larger/rounder.

 

Edit: punctuation

Edited September 26, 2016 by Vrack

[Odeen]

I would rather my sprites not be edited by anyone but myself.

[TCA]

If pumpkin eggs aren't pygmy-sized, this could still work if, like, the Nexus was left as is. That one would be a lot of work to redo and be a bit unfair to ask.

 

As for the other ones, it'd sort of defeat the purpose of having alternate eggs if a bunch of them don't comply, and I'd hope nobody tries to block a gameplay-based suggestion via art permissions on the basis of personal dislike, especially for solid-colored eggs that use the default shading.

Edited September 27, 2016 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[Vrack]

It's all well and fine to not want anyone to touch your sprites, but I'd hope an artist who doesn't personally support it wouldn't basically shoot down a gameplay-enhancing suggestion like this by denying all permissions when it may end up being a good idea in practice.

I agree with this ideology. It'd be awesome if I could make more example sprites without having to worry about going against a fellow artists wishes. But if the original artist doesn't want me to edit their art, I'll respect that and I won't edit it.

[Vrack]

I posted this two weeks ago with no response. So I'm reposting it rather than triple posting.

 

In my haste to find a replacement for 16 after it got denied by TJ, I feel like I overlooked some of the other outlines I came up with. Now that I look back I wonder if one of them might hold a solution to the problem that SkyWolf sees (it's too round to be an egg).

 

12 was an outline that was made just after 10 was. It has a narrower top that is meant to be reminiscent of the original egg without being exactly like it (like 16 was).

I wonder if 12 might be a veritable combination of the best features of 10 and 16?

 

It's just an idea, let me know what you guys think of it.

[Pokemonfan13]

I've always liked 10 best... I don't really see how 12 is significantly different from the rejected 16. Actually, it seems more similar to the base egg than 16 to me.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[Vrack]

The main reason why I thought to suggest 12 was because SkyWolf was saying how they didn't think 10 looked like the outline of an egg. I was wondering if 12 might look closer to an egg while still keeping the rounder shape.

 

Just in case people were wondering, here are all of the cracking sequences I've made:

Original, 12, 10, 6, Vix+D, 21 (Reminder: 21 was rejected by TJ)

 

Personally, I like either 10 or 12. I'd really love it if more people could give their opinions on the outlines, regardless of whether they support the idea or not, which outline would they hate the least. Also, if you want to see an outline with a slight change, let me know, I'm very happy to make edits.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Vrack

[Vrack]

Bump?

[olympe]

Let me recap this: TJ rejected one egg due to being too similar. He did not state that we couldn't make the egg larger than the original... *hint, hint*

 

Also, I absolutely hate 10 (too soap-bubble-y), and 6 doesn't look any better IMHO. 12 is too close to the original. Which leaves us with the big Vix + D egg. *shrugs*