2015-10-07 - Sprite Update (round one)

[Obscure_Trash]

https://dragcave.net/lineage/ksSeg I actually liked this better with the bendy neck. >_e ROFL However, it's nice to see all the users happier with the neck and posting this positive energy here. ^^

 

This is interesting, though: https://dragcave.net/lineage/0tOlV The tiny tiled nilia is much closer to the top of the tile than the larger versions are. o_O

 

We do have tons of stuff on the completed list that can be released, so I'm not really understanding the release of things that apparently are not 'complete' because the artist isn't truly happy with it.....

 

Because artists grow and improve as they continue practicing. The nilia's were finished when they were released because there was no further Cort could bring them. Now Cort has vastly improved his skills, so he could revisit the idea.

 

~

 

These posts are all reminding me of something TJ recently said about updates, which has become relevant to the conversation.

 

There's an apparent disconnect in the intention of the sprites vs how they're perceived. I think the main thing comes down to the subtle difference between "art" and "design." The sprites are more "design" than "art." Their purpose is to convey information (in this case a dragon). This is why replacements can and do happen—the utility they provide is more important than their value as an immutable piece of culture, and thus improving that utility by, say, correcting lighting or fixing anatomy is considered an appropriate tradeoff.

 

This isn't to say that they don't have value as creative works (that's not the point of the "art vs design" split). It just means that there's not really any function to placing the older works on a pedestal and preserving them there. It means that flaws should be seen as things to be corrected, rather than aspects that provide depth to the whole.

 

I suspect that my wording choices here are going to be overly-scrutinized and I have very little doubt that someone will end up being offended by way of misinterpreting my intention here, -snipped because the last part was only relevant to the thread he posted in-

[Tawanda001]

These posts are all reminding me of something TJ recently said about updates, which has become relevant to the conversation.

 

I could agree with that more IF this were more of an actual adoptable pet site that consisted of more to do than just collect.

Because there is not much to do other than collect, players have turned to creating and collecting lineages, which is very much more a function of art than of simply a means to convey information. YMMV

[kerrikins]

Mostly, it is important to remember that once a sprite is in-cave, many people become attached to the sprite. Not just the artist. If these were personal sprites for use by just the artists, any updates and changes would be fine and dandy. But they are no longer "just the artist's" sprites. When you have something that a lot of people are involved with, it is important to try and make sure there is some sort of outside input before completely changing something due to artistic license.

Beautifully said. I think a lot of creative people have the urge to keep poking at a creation forever, and that means that the longer DC lasts the more changes a sprite might go through. I like most of the updates so far but I do hope artists consider whether updates are needed and vital as opposed to 'well, I'm better now, why not poke at this?'. A lot of users love their sprites regardless of any 'imperfections' that an artist may see, after all.

[Jazeki]

 

Because artists grow and improve as they continue practicing. The nilia's were finished when they were released because there was no further Cort could bring them. Now Cort has vastly improved his skills, so he could revisit the idea.

 

~

 

These posts are all reminding me of something TJ recently said about updates, which has become relevant to the conversation.

 

Your comment about Cort's decision to take the nilias further lends to the sprite update being an artistic one as opposed to one that serves a design function. It was already possible to tell that they were dragons and there was nothing glaringly wrong with their anatomy.

 

The same goes for the horse update to a lesser extent. I love the horses, but they were already tweaked for shading/anatomy/etc before the new male was added.

 

I think that TJ's comment is more applicable to the museum suggestion than to the actual updates themselves as some of the dragons that are in-cave that are not very dragon-y at all to me (like the xenowyrms, which are beautiful, or the waverunners, that look like pteranadons). It just proves that the understanding of what dragons are" supposed to look like" is more of an artistic decision than a design decision since there is no set parameter for DC sprites outside of sprite sizes (and not being enchanted/modern/animalistic) now.

 

(Not very related, but this blog post has lots of artistic interpretations of dragons through the art periods: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/hi...ns-in-art.html

 

Edit: Dracaena try again. Or copy paste and remove the closing parenthetical mark after "html"

Edited October 10, 2015 by Jazeki

[Dracaena]

 

(Not very related, but this blog post has lots of artistic interpretations of dragons through the art periods: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/hi...ns-in-art.html)

You had me curious but sadly that link lands me with the message "Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.".

[Obscure_Trash]

You had me curious but sadly that link lands me with the message "Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.".

If you delete the parenthesis, the link will work: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/hi...ons-in-art.html

 

It was already possible to tell that they were dragons and there was nothing glaringly wrong with their anatomy.

 

They did not well represent the actual anatomy of the nilia's, though. The sprites were updated so this was visible. Which does go back to utility - the sprites serving the purpose to get across what the breeds look like. =o

[diaveborn]

Moving forward, if a sprite design doesn't match what the concept-maker thinks of the dragon, would those be released in-cave?

[Obscure_Trash]

Moving forward, if a sprite design doesn't match what the concept-maker thinks of the dragon, would those be released in-cave?

I assume you're talking about the fairly rare instance when the spriter isn't the conceptor? Since the conceptor is the OP in DR, it's up to the conceptor to determine when a concept is finished and not, and if they want new art, they need to advertise for that.

 

So a topic won't be moved without the OP's say-so (unless they are no longer active), and therefore can't be accepted (or not) for the cave.

[diaveborn]

I guess I'm wondering if we can assume this won't happen again that an in-cave sprite would need to be changed in order to match what the concept is.

[Dracaena]

If you delete the parenthesis, the link will work: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/hi...ons-in-art.html

 

Thank you for the link correction. It's an interesting read.

[bluesonic1]

Just for general clarification- so, so far the Holly adult, hatchling and mature hatchling have been updated and just the one time. The female horse is still the same as the original both-genders horse, and we have a new male. And we have new male and female Nilia Pygmies, with the female having been updated once since the announced update?

 

To Birdz- I'd like to say you've done an AMAZING job with the Holly- it's improved so much with such little change, this is truly what the phrase "updated sprite" feels like to me. It's still the one and only Holly dragon, but now fits in with all the current "modern" looking dragons. Great job on this!!

 

To LadyLyz- WOW. That male horse is just brilliant, I think it may be one of your best sprites to date!! Sorry for not having more to say on it, but it does leave me a bit speechless!

 

To Cort- I love the new dynamic nature you've brought to the Nilia pygmies. The old sprite was good, but so are these ones, and the shading in particular is so much more beautiful now. I too wasn't too big of a fan of the long necked female but had prepared myself to get used to it- then you go and update the sprite for everyone That's very kind and sweet of you, thank you for lovely gesture and it really means a lot to know you're hear listening to our comments- I'm sure the neck comments couldn't have been easy to hear. Both the male and female look beautiful, thanks again <3

[HeatherMarie]

I guess I'm wondering if we can assume this won't happen again that an in-cave sprite would need to be changed in order to match what the concept is.

Unfortunately, between the Golds and all of these new changes, plus the multiple changes in the past that I remember and cannot remember the breeds, it's looking like this *will* happen again. Anytime a spriter gets "better" and wants to update their dragon. And we will have no say in it. Which is really upsetting, really, but I keep trying to talk myself down so I don't get too frustrated with it.

[Corteo]

Thank you so much TJ for pushing it through so quickly! And thank you guys for the crits! I'm so happy that you like the neck better - I even like the neck better. I think it's so cool how when we work together we can come up with something that everyone (well almost) is happy(er) with. I wouldn't have been able to think of the changes myself.

 

I'd like to apologized specifically to the lineage breeders.... I've never ever been involved in lineages so I had no idea that a repose would affect everything so much. I will definitely know for the future (not that I'm reposing anything - cause I'm not) and will take it to heart.

 

In regards to the longer legs - they will be staying because the females are supposed to be bigger/longer.

 

Thank you guys again for your help and crit!

[NotBambi]

While, in my opinion, the majority responded to the new updates in a balanced way, I'm feeling half way between amused and bemused reading some of the reactions.

I'm more amused than surprised by the reactions of some people that were, are and will be against any update, and that will not like the updated sprites because... well... they were updated.

Instead, I'm a bit surprised and not amused by the "green monster" garden variety (aka "I could have done a better job") expressed by very few.

Finally, I don't find believable that TJ would release updates just to "accommodate" a spriter's artistic maturation. Knowing very well that a quite vocal group is against change, whatever kind of change, I doubt he would release updated sprites if he didn't feel that the updates were needed.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Actually, speaking as an artist--and one that often does collaborations with others in a different artistic medium, everyone's opinion should be about equal and when it comes to instances where the art is being shared with a huge amount of people and being used by someone predominately other than the artist (as with DC), the users' opinion should be taken into account and considered.

 

I like the updates overall and have no lineages that are ruined, but the artists have a heck of a lot more say (or at least have the ability to facilitate visual changes) than many of the regular users on the site. Keep in mind at one point, artists had the ability to pull their artwork off the site entirely. Also, some of these updates are coming because artists wanted them (as opposed to users wanting them as with the nilia sprite).

 

True, DC should keep on trucking with its updates to keep users interested and more new users coming in, but there should be more input than just the artists' going into the sprite updates. True, artists cannot be expected to please everyone and users should not be expected to like everything about DC, but there should be some sort of happy medium going on. Some sprites, like the holly, golds, and perhaps silvers, did need serious updates. But others, like the nilia and horse updates, are more for artistic aesthetics than anything else.

 

I have no "horse dragon" in this race, but I can say that I am not too thrilled about the "tada, more surprise updates later" part of this announcement as they seem to be arbitrarily done. I am also not too thrilled over the sense of entitlement that some artists are expressing and some users are expressing on behalf of the artists.  Many users should be a little more kind and constructive with their criticism/critique of the sprites, but the answer is not to belittle the regular users that are unhappy with changes with comments about putting more effort in or that there would be no DC without artists.

 

The artists are justifiably attached to their work, but they are not the only ones involved in bringing a sprite to the cave. There are often overlooked concept-ers  as well.  Mostly, it is important to remember that once a sprite is in-cave, many people become attached to the sprite. Not just the artist. If these were personal sprites for use by just the artists, any updates and changes would be fine and dandy. But they are no longer "just the artist's" sprites. When you have something that a lot of people are involved with, it is important to try and make sure there is some sort of outside input before completely changing something due to artistic license.

 

If not,  there should be some sort of update somewhere on DC that indicates that artists will continue to maintain creative control over their work once it's in cave rather than control being argued over or insinuated.

 

(As always, 'you' is general.)

This is so well said!

 

Said it before and will say it again; I am an artist and writer myself. I understand darned well what it means to be attached to a creation emotionally. But DC is not a private art gallery, and to a certain extent once something has already been released, the users' opinions should weigh even more than the artist's. Yes, they create art that makes the game, but without users there is no game, either. And again speaking as an artist myself, just because I make something for someone out of kindness, doesn't mean it's ok for me to go and retroactively change that gift on them with no consideration of their feelings--even if I feel the new ones is a hundred thousand times better. Especially not when most of them had good reason to believe that gift would never be changed, and even built whole pretty new designs around it. (Note that in this case I am talking more about radical updates than slight updates such as, say, those to the whiptail, purple, and original horse update)

 

Now, to beat another dead horse again, I realize that this "my way or the highway" view is certainly not true of every artist on DC. And I realize that many pains have been taken in the majority of updates to preserve what was there before. All of which is loved and appreciated and noted! But still I want to voice my opinion about things like this, so that perhaps those who do feel they must make more radical changes (totally new poses, dimorphism, and such) remember their obligations to the user base as someone in power over their art. With great power comes great responsibility, after all... ;3

Edited October 10, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[KittyHeart]

Great updates, glad the Nilia's neck has been fixed, like the dimorphism a lot now! Wish I had Holly, they look real good now and the male Horse is fabulous!!! Can't wait till the Silver updates, I always felt they were lacking (no-offense to the spriter, my tastes are just different from yours).

[Aleoleo]

Thanks Corteo for updating the Nilia female! I will still miss the previous sprite, but at least now I really like the new one.

 

And I would also specifically thank you for this:

I'd like to apologized specifically to the lineage breeders.... I've never ever been involved in lineages so I had no idea that a repose would affect everything so much.  I will definitely know for the future (not that I'm reposing anything - cause I'm not) and will take it to heart.

As a lineage breeder, I really appreciate this. (although I haven't been negatively impacted with the Nilia update, since my only project involving them is a male Nilia X female Magelight checker--and it looks better than before...)

[JavaTigress]

*snort*

When one has no power, there is no way to compromise.

 

The spriters can, and some do, make drastic changes without considering the impact on lineage builders. Mind, I've noticed that it seems like a lot more consideration is being taken on the impact sprite changes have on lineage builders! But having dimorphsim added after the fact is still worrisome. Note: I'm not talking about general updates, I'm talking about extreme changes in pose and color.

 

Lineage builders already face the fact that their lineages can be destroyed at any time by a tombstone appearing. In fact, tombstones have been used to *maliciously* destroy other's hard work. I know it was malicious... because the person who did it was bragging about it! There are any number of ideas out there, like a BSA for the Nilias themselves, to help ease that problem, and it has been around for years. And yet... Despite the Terms of Service.... Someone else can still destroy the lineage of one of my dragons if they own an ancestor. The only way to protect yourself is to make sure you own all the ancestors in question (which is how I protect myself from tombstones in most lineages), but for some lineages, that's not possible. Sadly, the most *valuable* lineages are the ones most likely to draw such attention.

 

So is it really asking too much, that there be an official policy in place to put some tiny constraints on how drastic an artist can change an already-released sprite's pose?

 

I'm thrilled that Corteo chose to make a change to the Nilia female's neck, and they'll look great with other pygmies, but they are still a drastic change from the old sprite (from a circle to a line).... And make Pumpkin lineages look lopsided. The male x Pumpkins don't have that affect, but then, they have a similar outline to the original sprite. Ditto on the male horses, though I really wish that he would be shifted forward a bit to get rid of the dead space in his tile.

 

Cheers!

C4.

This is just it.

 

While I like a pretty lineage,and may even try to continue it if I can... i have learned to accept that I CANNOT control what others do with their dragons, nor what artists may decide they want to do with their work.

 

Just saying. I accept it as part of the risk and don't really get too fussed over it.

 

At least if the ARTISTS do something, it isn't malicious, and I MAY find that I like the result... which is more than can be said if an owner of an ancestor decides to tombstone something.

[Paprika]

Report to a mod as necessary, but it is not okay to post this type of comment.

 

 

Personally, I like the updates and changes. Some sprites just look so old and wonky that it makes me happy to see them get love.

Edited October 10, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Nerei]

Personally, I liked the longer nilia neck better. The line of the neck seems a bit odd to me now, especially because of how it's directly under the wing. The long neck was so cute and serpentine.

[Lizzyluna]

I like the new and improved Nilia neck! The fact I only have one Nilia has nothing to do with my appreciation of the old sprite (I just have different priorities), but now I feel compelled to get more.

[AquaBlueRain]

Report to a mod as necessary, but it is not okay to post this type of comment.

 

I for one am thrilled with the changes. The sprites look amazing.

Edited October 10, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[ParticleSoup]

I'm ready for Round 2.

 

Bring it.

[dragontamer44722]

I'm ready for Round 2.

 

Bring it.

I'm waiting for the inevitable hellstorm of comments that will pop up when the Silvers come out. I'm making sure I have some popcorn handy

 

In all seriousness, I can't wait to see how the other updates will look, especially the surprise ones.

[Melatte]

Thank you so much TJ for pushing it through so quickly!  And thank you guys for the crits!  I'm so happy that you like the neck better - I even like the neck better.  I think it's so cool how when we work together we can come up with something that everyone (well almost) is happy(er) with.  I wouldn't have been able to think of the changes myself. 

I was really happy to see all the changes in this release, but I was definitely a little concerned about that neck. So I'm glad that you listened and made a change that you're happy with as well. Pygmies have consistently been my favorite type of dragon, and there are a couple of my Nilias that are very special to me. I am glad that they have been improved upon and I appreciate what you've done. (:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm ready for Round 2.

 

Bring it.

 

I'm not ready. *hides*