ANSWERED:Release a Coal Version of the prize dragon?

[Fiona]

I guess I'm the only other person who agrees with MedievalMystic?

Not at all. The rest of us just quit arguing the same arguments over and over with them.

[Syphoneira]

Just to mention, this thread was started because the Shimmer spriter kindly did a recolour offered for use for specifically this purpose, and the idea was to have that recolour of Mysfytt's Prize sprite used as its originator intended.

 

Another dragon, although a nice thought, wouldn't fit the context or purpose, since no other sprite (having obtainable permission for recolouration and such use) is related to the Prize dragons.

 

 

 

 

Edit: hi, MedievalMystic, I can certainly see your point regarding the metallic CB Prizes, which ARE special dragons obtainable only through the Raffle.

 

And I'm sorry that the idea of the Coal dragons bothers you, although I have to admit that the odds of us actually getting them are probably pretty darned slim, possibly even in the odds range of winning the Raffle.

 

But within any large group, everybody is obviously never going to universally share the identical taste or desires, and we have to expect some time spent leaning over metaphorical fences and explaining our differences to each other to at least try to understand each others points of view.

 

As you've noticed, I do very much like both the idea and the sprite, and will continue hoping for it until TJ actually says 'no way', though.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2014 by Syphoneira

[MedievalMystic]

Yeah, I'm a die hard, but I'm done talking about this, too. lol I actually have a slight headache getting into all this. It does feel like the conversation is going in circles. The ball is in TJ's court so we'll all see what happens next month.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

What if a new coal-coloured dragon was released? What would people say to that?

Oooh. We have westerns and easterns, so maybe a little coal wyvern? That would actually be pretty interesting... although I will confess, as cute as it sounds I'm so attached to the idea of gorgeous black shimmers now, gahhh.

[edwardelricfreak]

Oooh. We have westerns and easterns, so maybe a little coal wyvern? That would actually be pretty interesting... although I will confess, as cute as it sounds I'm so attached to the idea of gorgeous black shimmers now, gahhh.

*stares intensely at the Charcoals in Completed*

 

---

 

I don't think everyone who participated in the raffle but didn't win should get anything, still. No one needs to be consoled. However, a regular release during the time/shortly after the raffle WOULD be nice- NOT something for consolation but it allows for any user to at least collect something.

[BlitzDrake]

Coal wyvern ftw. But then again..I'm just imagining a all Black Hellfire. :F

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Coal wyvern ftw. But then again..I'm just imagining a all Black Hellfire. :F

Lol! Wyverns can look very different from one another, though. We have hellfires, nhiostrifes, coppers, coastals, and tsunamis, to name a few. I'm sure there'd be ways to make one that looked unique!

[Red2111]

@ ADP - I believe the coal shimmer sprite was in the other thread. I know I saw a coal colored tinsel there to which penks owner was very upset about as she didn't authorize her baby to be recolored.

 

 

Does giving out a Coal prize negatively effect the site in any way? Do any of the potential negatives outweigh the very major positive this would have on the Trades market?

To answerd your questions. IMO it would have a negative effect on the site if its a normal release or not done every year.

 

As a normal release, IMO, they'll be like coppers in cave. That only time you can grab them is on release day and they'll add another CB to the list that holds the market hostage. If only released the one time for participating in this years raffle, then people will have the same complaints they do in regards to discontinued and previous holidays. And next year well see a thread filled with people saying "but I need another to make a purebred" or "I missed the raffle and don't have one."

 

 

As far as the trading market, I don't see them making any dent on it, any more than a 2G metal or avatar does when were talking about prize lines. If everyone or majority have em, then after the initial newness wears it off it will be just the core collectors and people who don't have one looking for the in trades (which happened with every dragon on this site to include prize lines. When the new lines are released the old lines trade for much less)

Edited November 23, 2014 by Red2111

[Laugh]

I guess I'm the only other person who agrees with MedievalMystic?

Ehhhh. As much as the coals look very pretty (they're my favorite color of shimmers I've seen I kid you not) I don't support coals, but I wouldn't say I completely agree with Medieval. As far as I've seen I don't think anyone who's been supporting this feel "entitled" or "enraged" (insert other negative adjectiveS used to describe supporters here) about not winning from the raffle. I only see them wanting something extra from a raffle they probably won't win and another one that I see is that they want to be able to make lineages with pseudo-shimmers even though they know it's not the "real" shimmer they would still be happy with that. I understand that and sympathize that with them.

 

One of the main reason why I don't like the suggestion is because I feel like after we do get Coal Shimmers people would start suggesting that our Coals should turn into shinies for whatever reason (for nurturing dragons for so long? lol). The other is that I don't think we should get a Coal variant is because we have events, the year's Christmas dragon, and a badge already. I'm fine with that and think it's enough. I don't think the raffle would have the same specialty it does now (in the case of Shimmerscale winners anyways) because all the user is getting is an "upgrade" of the "knockoffs". It also introduces another unattainable CB for about a whole year for those that missed the raffle.

 

If TJ does release them I wouldn't mind. And if they do get released, it should be a "participation prize", not a "consolation prize" as I feel that would sort of punish winners for winning the raffle. I just do not feel we need another goody for the Christmas event.

 

I will be honest, when I first read the thread title I gave a big, "NOPE". But after reading what some of the supporters have said, they have slightly moved me away from that into the point of actually considering it.

[Vhale]

I don't think swapping Coal for shiny would be possible. At least, there are 3 shimmer colors and what would happen? A random switch? I think there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth as lineages got all mish-mashed.

 

Participation prize is a nicer way of putting it, I suppose that is what the raffle tickets are now anyway. It does make me wonder, if people had the choice of using their raffle tickets to get a Coal or join the lottery, what would they do? I admit, I'd probably go for the Coal as it's pretty <3 The only prizes I'm super fond of are the silvers, because, silver... uh well. See my tree and wreath

[Laugh]

I don't think swapping Coal for shiny would be possible. At least, there are 3 shimmer colors and what would happen? A random switch? I think there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth as lineages got all mish-mashed.

 

Participation prize is a nicer way of putting it, I suppose that is what the raffle tickets are now anyway. It does make me wonder, if people had the choice of using their raffle tickets to get a Coal or join the lottery, what would they do? I admit, I'd probably go for the Coal as it's pretty <3 The only prizes I'm super fond of are the silvers, because, silver... uh well. See my tree and wreath

It'd be possible if we had enough people for it. Which I hope not.. >__>; I think there was another idea that I had that people might suggest about coals, but I've forgotten. I know it wasn't just that alone though.

 

If I had the option, I'd gamble on the for the shinies and hope not too many decided to gamble so I'd be able to trade for 2g coal offspring at least....

[Reidragon]

Not at all. The rest of us just quit arguing the same arguments over and over with them.

This. I agree with Mystic and the others against. I just see no point in continuing to argue my opinion with the various people that find my opinion impossible to understand.. Plus I was at a dinner for my sister in law and this thread exploded while I was gone. Lol!

 

Edited for better wording choices. Dang I am tired x.x

Edited November 23, 2014 by Reidragon

[Obscure_Trash]

Out of curiosity, I looked back to my original answer, which was no, especially after Marri said no to tinsels. After reading many, many, many more arguments made, I will say my answer is a stronger no.

 

The badge, winter event, and Christmas dragons are all more than enough participation prizes for me. The extra are the prize dragons.

 

I do believe that coal prizes would be detrimental. It's not going to lower the trade value of second gen prizes or even that ground at all. People are still going to want them. It is going to make breeding second gen prizes harder, though, since now everyone will be able to breed coals while prize winners are trying to breed their prizes. So all that's going to happen is we get coals and less second gen prizes are available to be bred and traded and gifted.

People are saying it could help with even gen lines - but we can do even gen lines now. I know it's not everyone's preference, but I would rather continue checkers with similar color dragons, not the same dragon a completely different color.

Ex. Here is what I decided to do with one of my Caballo offspring.

Here is one I was gifted.

I decided to do a color checker, which I really like. My wonderful gifter went for a breed checker, which looks nice, but the alt is really striking - which is probably the point, but my personal preference is to meld colors.

(Prize-wise I have built and am trying to build another prize mate with gwyverns, which I think works quite well, while the lineage just wouldn't have the same effect if I had used coals instead.) So we do have lineage options now, it's just that most people choose to do stairs and other easier to continue lines.

 

With one prize spriter agreeing to coals, that puts pressure on future prize spriters to also accept that because now the precedent has been set. So there isn't really much of a choice for them as someone earlier said, IMO. Although I am not a spriter, if I was, I would probably just not enter my sprite at all for contention because I'd rather not possibly be harassed for not folding under the pressure of releasing a coal because now there's a precedence for having a coal participation prize when that was not what was originally intended.

[bluesonic1]

Not at all. The rest of us just quit arguing the same arguments over and over with them.

^ Exactly that. I completely agree with you lightningsky, and agree with about 99% of the arguments that stand against this idea. I just got tired of reiterating that producing a coal dragon doesn't actually solve anything, and as Rhynn Collins pointed out, there really isn't a problem that this coal dragon is addressing in the first place.

 

As someone who's given up and is just reading posts, the majority of things I hear from the support side are cries for equality/entitlement, and those who just want new dragons in the cave (which I fully understand, but still not a viable reason for Coal dragons ).

Edited November 23, 2014 by bluesonic1

[MessengerDragon]

((Just wanting to say, coals don't necessarily have to solve anything, they could be just a nice thing from the raffle.

However, quite a few of the supporters are tired of arguing the same arguments as well. The for and against sides are now mostly bringing up the previous arguments, not actually achieving anything.))

[Vhale]

It'd be possible if we had enough people for it. Which I hope not.. >__>; I think there was another idea that I had that people might suggest about coals, but I've forgotten. I know it wasn't just that alone though.

 

If I had the option, I'd gamble on the for the shinies and hope not too many decided to gamble so I'd be able to trade for 2g coal offspring at least....

I read it and thought of old school fairs where you'd get tickets to spend or skeeball at Chuck E Cheese. I'd rarely get to go to the latter but I was always tempted to try to save up my tickets "just in case" It never worked when I did. I always lost them or forgot about them, it was so long between trips. Granted, I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets IRL. The main reason I participate in this one is I'd feel bad if I didn't go all out, because you don't know... But having seen the stress prize winners go through, if I had a choice, I think I'd not to try to get the grand prize.

 

I suppose it's the old bird in hand being worth 2 in the bush thing. That and I'm fond of giving people a choice in options.

[Jazeki]

I don't think swapping Coal for shiny would be possible. At least, there are 3 shimmer colors and what would happen? A random switch? I think there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth as lineages got all mish-mashed.

 

I think the poster who mentioned swapping meant outside of the raffle (i.e. trading their CB coal for someone's CB shiny). Within the realm of the raffle, they could probably move up to the next shimmer colors if someone declined their choice of having the CB gold, silver, or bronze shimmer in favor of one of the other HM prizes.

[Syphoneira]

Out of curiosity, I looked back to my original answer, which was no, especially after Marri said no to tinsels. After reading many, many, many more arguments made, I will say my answer is a stronger no.

 

The badge, winter event, and Christmas dragons are all more than enough participation prizes for me. The extra are the prize dragons.

 

I do believe that coal prizes would be detrimental. It's not going to lower the trade value of second gen prizes or even that ground at all. People are still going to want them. It is going to make breeding second gen prizes harder, though, since now everyone will be able to breed coals while prize winners are trying to breed their prizes. So all that's going to happen is we get coals and less second gen prizes are available to be bred and traded and gifted.

People are saying it could help with even gen lines - but we can do even gen lines now. I know it's not everyone's preference, but I would rather continue checkers with similar color dragons, not the same dragon a completely different color.

Ex. Here is what I decided to do with one of my Caballo offspring.

Here is one I was gifted.

I decided to do a color checker, which I really like. My wonderful gifter went for a breed checker, which looks nice, but the alt is really striking - which is probably the point, but my personal preference is to meld colors.

(Prize-wise I have built and am trying to build another prize mate with gwyverns, which I think works quite well, while the lineage just wouldn't have the same effect if I had used coals instead.) So we do have lineage options now, it's just that most people choose to do stairs and other easier to continue lines.

 

With one prize spriter agreeing to coals, that puts pressure on future prize spriters to also accept that because now the precedent has been set. So there isn't really much of a choice for them as someone earlier said, IMO. Although I am not a spriter, if I was, I would probably just not enter my sprite at all for contention because I'd rather not possibly be harassed for not folding under the pressure of releasing a coal because now there's a precedence for having a coal participation prize when that was not what was originally intended.

 

 

Hi, Socky!

 

Just to mention: apparently the Coal suggestion, as someone mentioned somewhere up-thread, involved separate ratios for the Coals and the metallic Prizes, so that neither would interfere with the others production.

 

 

 

[Obscure_Trash]

 

Hi, Socky!

 

Just to mention: apparently the Coal suggestion, as someone mentioned somewhere up-thread, involved separate ratios for the Coals and the metallic Prizes, so that neither would interfere with the others production.

I can't speak for TJ or what he would think obviously, but to me personally, this doesn't make sense - although it is a convenient solution. I think it's an either or situation. Either we get coals and destroy breeding of prizes earlier on or we don't get coals but hopefully get more second gen prizes. These are color options, not alts, IMO, so I would think rarity/breeding for all would be the same. I mean, AFAIK, prizes now all have the same breeding chances, so I personally don't think coals shouldn't count in that.

 

But unless TJ spoke up for how he'd handle it, now we're just at, what's basically akin to, semantics for which none of us can make the final call. ^^

[Rhynn Collins]

People, stop making so many posts when I'm asleep, now it takes forever to read up and react Writing this as I read up, so I apologise if this post ends up somewhat unstructured.

 

(Aaannd so I reach the end of the posts and read about everyone agreeing it's starting to become pointless to argue I agree, those who are for it are for it and those who are against it are against it and no one seems to be able to bring up any arguments to convince the other party. Buuuuuut I've already typed out everything below so I'm going to post it anyway in the hope of getting answers and maybe possibly having a very slim chance of convincing people after all )

 

---

 

I've seen 'this isn't real life' fly by a few times in the last few pages- yes, it is. We're all living, breathing people who are choosing to spend a portion of their life on a website dedicated to collecting tiny pixel dragons. Just because it's online doesn't mean it's not 'real life'. If you want to distinguish between online and not-online, just... use online and offline?

 

Re: Myfytt has been nice enough to make the sprites, so we should release them.

I don't see how that's an argument. It's very nice of Mysfytt to have made it, but since when does someone making a dragon mean it has to be released? If that was the case, then most of us would be in-cave spriters already by now. There are recolors of other released dragons made by their original spriters, but those don't appear to be getting released either.

The Coalscale is cool (if I remember it correctly), definitely, but so are a lot of things on the Completed list. I'd rather see those happen, than the Coalscale (Also, I remember someone saying there aren't (m)any nice dark easterns on the list- correct, but I know at least one high-quality dark-coloured eastern has been submitted straight to TJ. They do exist, they just haven't been released )

 

I've also noticed a misconception here and there. To clarify: 'special' is not the same as 'high trading value'. Not to me, at least. The most common, messy-lineaged, inbred dragon can be special under the right circumstances. I know my first ever dragons are special to me, even if they have zero value for trading. The same goes for the shimmers: their trading value gets less and less the higher the gen, but that doesn't mean they're not still special. And that's just what prizes are supposed to be, to me: special. To me, coal prizes certainly don't devalue the shiny prizes, but they do make them less special.

 

Yes, this does mean I'd be more willing to go along with the suggestion of a participation/consolation prize if the prize wasn't a recolor of something existing, but a dragon made especially for this purpose (which also takes away the issue some still have with Tinsels not getting a Coal version, and the issue of breeding ratios). I still don't like participation/consolation prizes in general, but that's not just a DC thing, it's a general thing.

(For the record, if the Coal shimmers or any sort of participation/consolation prize were to happen, yes I would totally be hypocritical enough to take one and make pretty lineages with it. Just because I don't agree with releasing it in the first place doesn't mean I wouldn't go all grabby hands )

 

I've seen the argument that it'd be nice to have something to show for participation in the raffle. Why does this need to be a prize dragon? Why not a commemorative ribbon-type thing? If you want something to show for having participated in a raffle, would having a badge be good too?

Or is this, at the core, about wanting to have a free dragon which looks cool?

 

Which brings me to this: I'd still really like to have an answer to the bolded question in my post several pages back:

 

Reading through the last few pages, I've gotten a bit confused on one quite important thing:

 

What, exactly, is the problem this coal dragon is supposed to solve?

(Link to the post in case anyone wants to read back the whole thing)

 

It seems rather important to the discussion, to be honest And if the answer is 'there's not actually a problem': then is there really a good reason to release the Coal shimmer? Besides 'it's pretty and gives lineage possibilities' - which, let's be honest, applies to any dragon getting a release.

[Fuzzbucket]

Out of curiosity, I looked back to my original answer, which was no, especially after Marri said no to tinsels. After reading many, many, many more arguments made, I will say my answer is a stronger no.

 

The badge, winter event, and Christmas dragons are all more than enough participation prizes for me. The extra are the prize dragons.

 

I do believe that coal prizes would be detrimental. It's not going to lower the trade value of second gen prizes or even that ground at all. People are still going to want them. It is going to make breeding second gen prizes harder, though, since now everyone will be able to breed coals while prize winners are trying to breed their prizes. So all that's going to happen is we get coals and less second gen prizes are available to be bred and traded and gifted.

People are saying it could help with even gen lines - but we can do even gen lines now. I know it's not everyone's preference, but I would rather continue checkers with similar color dragons, not the same dragon a completely different color.

Ex. Here is what I decided to do with one of my Caballo offspring.

Here is one I was gifted.

I decided to do a color checker, which I really like. My wonderful gifter went for a breed checker, which looks nice, but the alt is really striking - which is probably the point, but my personal preference is to meld colors.

(Prize-wise I have built and am trying to build another prize mate with gwyverns, which I think works quite well, while the lineage just wouldn't have the same effect if I had used coals instead.) So we do have lineage options now, it's just that most people choose to do stairs and other easier to continue lines.

 

With one prize spriter agreeing to coals, that puts pressure on future prize spriters to also accept that because now the precedent has been set. So there isn't really much of a choice for them as someone earlier said, IMO. Although I am not a spriter, if I was, I would probably just not enter my sprite at all for contention because I'd rather not possibly be harassed for not folding under the pressure of releasing a coal because now there's a precedence for having a coal participation prize when that was not what was originally intended.

I agree with every word Sock has posted, and I'm out too.

[Sundew]

After reading far too many replies on the subject, I think I can safely say that my stance on this is a strong no.

 

The raffle is a Christmas event. It does not matter that the Prizes are given out months after Christmas--the fact is that they wouldn’t be given out at all if not for Christmas.

Giving out a dragon that is only available to those active on the forums while the raffle began and cannot be found again in-cave is, IMO, just creating another Christmas dragon. It doesn’t matter whether or not it can breed true year-round, what matters is that those who were not there to get it can’t get a CB form now.

We already have dragons like that during the holidays.

 

Devaluing is not a problem in my eyes. Take spriter’s alts, for example: because there are a limited number on the site, alt offspring go for a lot more than regular offspring.

But I really don’t think this is necessary. At all. We already get a batch of new Prize dragons with new codes to get offspring from, we get new holiday dragons, new holiday alts to collect, and a pretty badge at the top of our scrolls to show that we were there for the event. We already have new dragons to trade with. We don’t need anything more.

 

If the only reason for this is lineage possibilities, let’s make some more dragons. There are tons of lineage possibilities already. We do just fine with what we currently have. If you want a dragon for the color, or the pose, make one. Colors are not exclusive, poses are not exclusive; similar dragons have been released in the past.

 

But, gosh, what even is the reason for this? Just a pretty new dragon? We get pretty new dragons every month. Unique dragons.

 

I don’t want to see recolors because we already have recolors.

I don’t want work to go into creating recolors when it could go into making unique new dragons.

I don’t want to see something like this happen because it will happen again. And again. And again.

DC is in a good place right now. I only think something like this--with all the drama that has happened just in this thread--would upset its balance.

 

[Vhale]

((Just wanting to say, coals don't necessarily have to solve anything, they could be just a nice thing from the raffle.

However, quite a few of the supporters are tired of arguing the same arguments as well. The for and against sides are now mostly bringing up the previous arguments, not actually achieving anything.))

Pretty much. It's like trying to get a person whose decided they hate a certain food that they might like it if they tried it. But, until they try it they'll never be convinced. And of course, do they "need" that food? No. But that's not the point.

[edwardelricfreak]

I really see no need for them either, other than a nice new dragon. But, I figured it would be a regular release right after raffle prizes were given out or during, that way everyone could *do something* to distract them from losing. Maybe they would be similar to Holidays in that they would only drop during that time and maybe only bred then too? idk just ideas. Maybe would rather be better as regular releases.

 

Do we need them? No, but we don't HAVE to need them. I'm not saying I agree with the suggestion entirely, I just want more dragons in general.

[purplehaze]

I am still very much against this idea. I could explain why, but I think Rhynn Collins and ab613 have made all the points that I would make and have articulated them much more clearly than I could. I also think Sock makes some good points.