Unfreezing

[olympe]

Old pinks, I can understand wanting the ability to unfreeze. I dont believe there was much warning on those when they were retired.. however frills we had a LOT of warning on. At least a months warning not even accounting for everything that happened here leading up to their retirement. People still chose to freeze them knowing they were disappearing.

 

Yes, frills had a lot of warning. And disappeared way before the semi-official grace period was up. Besides, I'm sure there are players who froze frills way before there was any mention of their impending retirement. The hatchlings were pretty cute, after all. Some of the cutest hatchies we've ever had.

 

What I was trying to point out is that many people chose to freeze their frills when they were a dime a dozen. In the AP, but also in the cave. When people thought that they'd always be able to get more of them.

[bbik]

What little I've read of this thread makes me laugh so much.

 

Regarding personal gain:

Go find me a suggestion that does not provide a benefit to anyone. Please, someone, share the link with me.

 

Suggestions are inherently about gain. Some may not directly help the OP (such as this one), but they will either make the game better (in the OP's mind), or help someone else. Most, though, are suggested because the OP wants it as well. Sure, there are those suggestions which will never fly, because it would help only the OP, or have too much of a negative affect on the game, but just because gain is involved does not make a suggestion inherently wrong.

 

Regarding restriction suggestions:

To be fair, most of the suggestions are good ones. But some of them... The original holiday-based thread was rejected on the grounds of being an exception. Yet now some of the suggestions of how to make unfreezing better are revolving around exceptions as well? And that's supposed to work? Or are those only being made as an extra measure of surety for this suggestion not going through by those who do not support it and need more reasons to deny it?

 

Making unfrozen dragons unbreedable -- Someone will have two (or more) dragons of the same breed on their scroll, except one (or more) of them can't reproduce, while the others can. Sure, it could be done coding-wise, but it's an exception if ever I saw one, and for anyone who doesn't know the ins and outs of breeding and un/freezing, it's likely to be very confusing. Yes, there are dragons currently which are unbreedable (GoN, Cheese, Paper, etc), but that's breed-wide, not just selected dragons.

 

Only allowing a subset of dragons to be unfrozen -- Restricting how much/often an unfreeze option can be used is all well and good, but restricting what it can be used on, considering TJ's comment in the holiday thread, is not. Going around declaring that "if unfreezing is allowed, only XYZ breed can be unfrozen" or "all dragons except ZYX breed can be unfrozen" doesn't make much sense.

 

My personal thoughts on unfreezing:

I started the other thread, true, but I fully expected others to have much stronger opinions about it than I do -- and I was right. Would I personally like the option to unfreeze? Sure. Will it be a game-breaker or a life or death problem if it never happens? No. But it would still be nice to have, for the OCD consistency side of me. Not for lineages, or sprite collection, or screwing up ratios, or greedy hoarding, or trade value (because let's be realistic here, even if someone thinks they're going to use it as trade fodder, they're not going to get very far) or whatever other negatives are being attached to it in this thread. Not even for gifting reasons. Purely because I'd rather not have a mix of frozen/adult and all-adult holidays.

 

That said, if I had a second adult, rather than a frozen, would I breed it? Certainly. Though probably still not much. But, it'd give me one to breed at will that way, because my scroll rules say that the "primary" (aka first) CB or CB pair of a breed gets a set mate and that never changes. So if I had the second adult, I wouldn't have to choose between selfishly sticking to scroll rules or generously breeding combos people want. When we could only ever have two, "selfish" won out, but now that we can have more, it would be nice to share instead. That is also why I opted to grow both of this year's Christmases, rather than continuing to freeze one for consistency -- and I very seriously considered it, for all that I doubt many people will believe it.

 

 

Edit(s): fixing obnoxious meaning-changing single letter typos.

Edited January 7, 2014 by bbik

[Syphoneira]

bbik. you're a breath of fresh air!

 

But I feel obliged to point out that the OP actually has no personal use for this action/BSA at this time, and neither do some of the strongest supporters, like myself.

 

We just think it's fair, due to changed circumstances.

 

And I think that the point of suggestions involving infertility, potential death or abandonment are simply to ensure that most people would have no more use for it than most people do for Earthquake, because nothing's worth that sort of result/risk to a lot of us.

[bbik]

But I feel obliged to point out that the OP actually has no personal use for this action/BSA at this time, and neither do some of the strongest supporters, like myself.

For the OP, I (er... well... I meant to! Silly "now" instead of "not" typo!) already mentioned their lack of direct benefit. Other non-OP supporters can go either way. I was only pointing out that suggestions inherently benefit someone, entirely unrelated to whatever benefits there may or may not be for those who post their opinions.

[Syphoneira]

For the OP, I (er... well... I meant to! Silly "now" instead of "not" typo!) already mentioned their lack of direct benefit. Other non-OP supporters can go either way. I was only pointing out that suggestions inherently benefit someone, entirely unrelated to whatever benefits there may or may not be for those who post their opinions.

 

 

Sorry, She Who Never Sleepeth Enougheth Maketh Egregious Errors With Annoying Frequency,lol - I've managed some interesting effects of late!

 

 

 

And your post was marvelous in pointing out the facts, especially since suggestions that benefit nobody are pointless.

 

 

I would personally think that when people who don't directly benefit promote something like this, it would also tend to indicate that it's a reasonable suggestion not likely to harm those who won't use it - I hope it goes through...

[olympe]

Let's get back to TJ's comment - just to derail the current discussion. ;-)

 

For what it's worth, I'm mostly indifferent on this as long as it can't be "abused" (i.e. used to obtain adults faster than raising them normally) and generally behaves in an intuitive manner.

 

I'm thus not quite sold on the idea of unfrozen adults taking up an egg slot as compensation. It makes sense in theory, but I don't buy the RP reasoning, and it's definitely not visible to people (it's not clear from looking at your scroll that you actually have six slots used even though you have five eggs)--just like the 24-hour deathlock that the idea was based on, which already causes its fair share of confusion.

 

So, intuitive. Which means simple is best.

Both a BSA and regular scroll actions might be considered "simple". However, a regular scroll action seems simpler to me, plus it would make more sense RP-wise. If we are the ones to cast the freezing spells, we should be the ones to undo them.

 

Preventing abuse:

- No trading unfrozen hatchlings. (That's a given for most supporters, as far as I can gauge it from people's reactions. Plus from most non-supporters who argue this point just in case it hapens anyway.)

- No simple cheating of scroll limits: A high, scroll-wide cooldown plus having to wait for a little over a year (like 13 months!) would work well here. Like you can only unfreeze one hatchling in each month (of the calendar). The benefits are there, no kidding, but they're pretty small compared to our scroll limits. However, circumventing limits by freezing holidays might be painful for other people. That's why I'd advocate for a minimal frozen time of 13 months before unfreezing is allowed. So the players who actually use freezing/unfreezing to "cheat" limits for holiday dragons will have to lose at least one potential clutch of bred holiday eggs from these dragons.

 

There's still the question of having unfrozens grow up instantly or have them be raised like a normal, but untradable hatchling. Personally, I would prefer the second, but I've heard many people who prefer insta-adults.

[Amazon_warrior]

I am pretty neutral about this suggestion, as long as whatever's decided isn't open to abuse...

 

There's still the question of having unfrozens grow up instantly or have them be raised like a normal, but untradable hatchling. Personally, I would prefer the second, but I've heard many people who prefer insta-adults.

If you wanted it to be interesting, you could make it be something like forced hatchlings - unfrozen hatchlings could need a lot more views and be stubborn about growing up. Or they could become sick more easily and require minding. Or both! Also, if hatchlings are unfrozen and they don't become insta-adults, what happens to their counter? Would it reset to 7 days left?

[LibbyLishly]

Let's get back to TJ's comment - just to derail the current discussion. ;-)

 

 

 

So, intuitive. Which means simple is best.

Both a BSA and regular scroll actions might be considered "simple". However, a regular scroll action seems simpler to me, plus it would make more sense RP-wise. If we are the ones to cast the freezing spells, we should be the ones to undo them.

 

Preventing abuse:

- No trading unfrozen hatchlings. (That's a given for most supporters, as far as I can gauge it from people's reactions. Plus from most non-supporters who argue this point just in case it hapens anyway.)

- No simple cheating of scroll limits: A high, scroll-wide cooldown plus having to wait for a little over a year (like 13 months!) would work well here. Like you can only unfreeze one hatchling in each month (of the calendar). The benefits are there, no kidding, but they're pretty small compared to our scroll limits. However, circumventing limits by freezing holidays might be painful for other people. That's why I'd advocate for a minimal frozen time of 13 months before unfreezing is allowed. So the players who actually use freezing/unfreezing to "cheat" limits for holiday dragons will have to lose at least one potential clutch of bred holiday eggs from these dragons.

 

There's still the question of having unfrozens grow up instantly or have them be raised like a normal, but untradable hatchling. Personally, I would prefer the second, but I've heard many people who prefer insta-adults.

Thanks for bringing this forward, Olympe.

 

I agree that a scroll action would be the simplest out of the options presented thus far. Besides, we all know how long it takes for a new BSA to come through. ADP's example wording for the details of the action make it pretty doggone 'intuitive' as well.

 

There are a couple of supporters who would be fine with trading (even though they don't have anything to unfreeze and trade of their own) and don't care what kind of price exploitation would take place, and I bless them for that. However, I think you're right: the idea of being able to trade unfrozen hatchlings just makes the entire thing far too exploitable and I'd far rather that not be considered at all.

 

I find the idea of having to wait 13 months rather than just a year intriguing. One would think that would prevent any kind of 'abuse' during holiday times, particularly Halloween. That's definitely worth seriously considering. I certainly don't think the wait time should be any less than a year.

 

I'm less of a fan of insta-adults, though it doesn't really matter to me because the minimum wait time of a year+ before unfreeze becomes available makes it ridiculous to think that people would use that to get around hatchling limits. However, I do think restoring a hatchling to a growing state makes more sense. That way, people would still have to care for it, even with it stuck to the scroll. There is still the question of descriptions that I brought up a couple pages back, but since no one else has commented on that, my guess is it isn't a huge deal.

 

ETA: Top post updated. Moved some things around, clarified some wording, added another cave-wide benefit that was mentioned.

Edited January 7, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[Hawkster]

There ARE efforts on the forum for breeding rares and giving them to those who have none. That's clearly not the goal here.

 

In regard to the ratios: I figure TJ can pretty much handle that himself. It's not like he's actually told us the formula he uses for ratios; he's the only one who knows how they actually work, so it won't exactly help for us to worry about it. If he decides to implement this, I'm quite sure he'd take ratios into account. In any case, my understanding is that the ratios apply to egg generation, not to existing hatchlings.

You do realize your part I bolded actually backs up Ashes The Second whole point dont you? This is EXACTLY what they were saying, hatchies are supposedly not included in the ratio count, and IF this suggestion is implemented the ratios would instantly be screwed up as all those that were no longer included now would be.

 

Whether TJ will or can do something to offset this, you are correct only TJ would know.

 

HOWEVER, if you are going to make a suggestion, it should be comprehensive and consider ALL possible outcomes and some ways to offset those if necessary. So this should be being discussed as well.

[Ashes The Second]

You do realize your part I bolded actually backs up Ashes The Second whole point dont you? This is EXACTLY what they were saying, hatchies are supposedly not included in the ratio count, and IF this suggestion is implemented the ratios would instantly be screwed up as all those that were no longer included now would be.

 

Whether TJ will or can do something to offset this, you are correct only TJ would know.

 

HOWEVER, if you are going to make a suggestion, it should be comprehensive and consider ALL possible outcomes and some ways to offset those if necessary. So this should be being discussed as well.

Thank you, Hawkster. (I think? you're being a tad ambiguous there)

 

My point is what would the system do when a dozen or more unaccounted for dragons suddenly become viable? It would crush the system, which is why making them unbreedable was an option in the first place -- you have to have something to counteract the problems that are being made by having too many new dragons and the ratios, assuming they are placed whenever, account for those assets.

 

 

That's not easy to do, since it depends on who uses the action, and when, and what dragon type needs to add +1 to the influence ratio. Not to mention the holiday ratios produce multiple eggs, so how would that work? Would they count in the ratios? What about if the data ratio wipe doesn't coincide with this being implemented and suddenly you can't breed holidays anymore?

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ashes The Second

[Hawkster]

I feel pretty much like what TJ has already stated about this topic and do not see a need to change this. Like TJ said, the main argument/question is: should freezing be permanent? I for one believe that answer should be yes, once frozen will remain frozen.

 

IF this is changed however, it definitely should be just like reviving killed hatchlings where they auto grow up instantly. As many have stated they have been on your scroll for who knows how long, in many cases years, and so should not be compared to regular hatchling. Additionally this helps avoid some potential exploiting issues with trading them like op stated in the first post.

 

The op asked to state reasons why changing it would have a negative impact. This is actually reverse, this thread should be coming up with enough positive reasons to influence TJ and everyone else WHY it should be changed.

 

This should also include proposals/suggestions on how to go about accomplishing this change. Which for the most part has already been included in the OP's post with exception on how to not impact ratio changes, especially for rares.

 

Does the OP have persuasive enough arguments to change the permanent status? Specifically with what TJ has already stated "Should freezing be permanent?

 

How would the ability to unfreeze, with the proposed limitations, benefit the cave?

1. Players who froze a hatchling before a rule change (i.e. the ability to collect more than 2 of past holidays) would be able to alter the freezing based on new circumstances. yea true for those that had them prior to the rule change, but as TJ implied this is really trying to make up for a one time exclusion. This is not a good argument to try and influence TJ to change this. You really should be trying to address the exact opposite, not try to make it appear like it is trying to make up for a one time exclusion. How does this address players that have a frozen hatchling now after the rule change? How will changing this benefit those players?

2. New players and lineage collectors would benefit from having more CB/good-lineaged past breeds in the mating pool and could collect non-discontinued sprites of a lower generation. Once again true, however this is already happening all the time anyway. I have heard time and time again how every year there are more and more good past holiday eggs available. Plus as many have stated there were lot more people breeding now that limit was raised, so once again this is already happening. Do we really need this as well to accomplish this reason? I tend to think not.

3. The action, instead of creating an exception for a certain group as was formerly suggested, would be available to everyone. True, but does every one want or need this? I do not normally freeze and I see no reason why this should not remain permanent. Only one listed here to partly answer some of what TJ stated, but not strong enough reason alone to warrant a change.

4. More congruent RP: If we're powerful enough mages to cast a spell of eternal youth, why wouldn't we be able to lift it? Maybe possible, but like in Real, humans have had capability to freeze someone for decades now. Unfreezing them however is another issue that is not as capable. So sorry but RP reason is unrealistic. Definitely not persuasive.

5. Unfreezing would be forced upon no one; those who have frozen hatchlings who don't want to unfreeze them wouldn't have to. One person's decision to unfreeze would in no way affect the scroll of someone who didn't want to unfreeze. Wrong. Until the issue of ratio's is addressed, this will impact EVERYONE whether they choose to unfreeze or not. Even if that is addressed, it still impacts everyone, just because one chooses not to use it, it is still no longer PERMANENT and so therefor it is being forced upon them whether they want it or not. This is the worst reason listed to counteract what TJ has stated.

6. People who made a stupid mistake as a newcomer (or even as an older player) would be able to undo that action, giving them a better overall playing experience. Does this mean we should make allowances for every stupid mistake that players have done? Can I go back and change the sex of one my adults (as newcomer I screwed up many lineages due to not knowing better) or can I go back and retrieve that egg from AP that I bred when I was egg locked. This list could go on and on. If we did this, one would not learn from their mistakes as there would be no consequences to their actions if they could easily just go back and correct every single stupid mistake. This is almost as lame as one above

 

tl;dr: this suggestion needs much more persuasive reasons to warrant a change from making freezing no longer being permanent.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Hawkster

[purplehaze]

<snipped for brevity>

tl;dr: this suggestion needs much more persuasive reasons to warrant a change from making freezing no longer being permanent.

I am pretty much in agreement.

 

I don't really see great harm in this, except for the possible effect on ratios, but no one has yet convinced me that there are enough good reasons to change this, either.

[olympe]

IF this is changed however, it definitely should be just like reviving killed hatchlings where they auto grow up instantly.

Actually, they don't. They're given some time (like 3 days, I think) in which they have to be raised just like a normal hatchling. Even if they did by running out of time.

 

The op asked to state reasons why changing it would have a negative impact. This is actually reverse, this thread should be coming up with enough positive reasons to influence TJ and everyone else WHY it should be changed.

A very good point. I think the main point being brought up is that it would some people happy. And benefit the community because there's more breeding stock for old holiday breeds and other rare stuff that might get unfrozen.

 

2. New players and lineage collectors would benefit from having more CB/good-lineaged past breeds in the mating pool and could collect non-discontinued sprites of a lower generation.Once again true, however this is already happening all the time anyway. I have heard time and time again how every year there are more and more good past holiday eggs available. Plus as many have stated there were lot more people breeding now that limit was raised, so once again this is already happening. Do we really need this as well to accomplish this reason? I tend to think not.

Not this Christmas, no. The holiday eggs were pretty scarce to begin with, and only messy lineages were dumped back to the AP repeatedly.

 

5. Unfreezing would be forced upon no one; those who have frozen hatchlings who don't want to unfreeze them wouldn't have to. One person's decision to unfreeze would in no way affect the scroll of someone who didn't want to unfreeze. Wrong. Until the issue of ratio's is addressed, this will impact EVERYONE whether they choose to unfreeze or not.

Good point, actually. Especially for rares. However, it would still be beneficial for holiday breeds.

 

Even if that is addressed, it still impacts everyone, just because I for example would not choose to use it, it is still no longer PERMANENT and so therefor it is being forced upon me whether I want it or not. This is the worst reason listed to counteract what TJ has stated.

It's not forced upon you. As a matter of fact, if you don't have any frozen hatchlings (like me), you won't even see it.

 

People who made a stupid mistake as a newcomer (or even as an older player) would be able to undo that action, giving them a better overall playing experience. Fail to see validity of this, does this mean we should make allowances for every stupid mistake that players have done? Can I go back and change the sex of one my adults (as newcomer I screwed up many lineages due to not knowing better) or can I go back and retrieve that egg from AP that I bred when I was egg locked. This list could go on and on. If we did this, one would not learn from their mistakes as there would be no consequences to their actions if they could easily just go back and correct every single stupid mistake.

I have to agree with this one, as I've pointed out the very same thing in the "one time holiday unfreezing" thread.

[DragonLady86]

 

My point is what would the system do when a dozen or more unaccounted for dragons suddenly become viable?

Frozen hatchlings count for the ratios same as adults. For the first YEAR of life same as adults. Which means, if they are older than a year it doesn't matter which stage they are, they don't (or shouldn't) count. and if they are less than a year old they are still counted in the ratios even as frozen hatchlings.

 

So, I really don't understand this argument. Yes it allows more breeding attempts: but those attempts will be governed by the ratios so I really don't understand how that is going to majorly crush the system.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Frozen hatchlings count for the ratios same as adults. For the first YEAR of life same as adults. Which means, if they are older than a year it doesn't matter which stage they are, they don't (or shouldn't) count. and if they are less than a year old they are still counted in the ratios even as frozen hatchlings.

 

So, I really don't understand this argument. Yes it allows more breeding attempts: but those attempts will be governed by the ratios so I really don't understand how that is going to majorly crush the system.

Add in that the current idea is only to allow 11 unfreezes per year, that not everyone will breed everything they unfreeze all the time, that not everyone freezes (and that those who do might not all unfreeze), that many people are already adding dozens of new dragons to the system every day--and yah. I don't see a ratio apocalypse on the horizon.

 

TJ and TJ alone knows the ratios enough to know for sure how this could go down. Since he hasn't seen that as an issue in any of the posts he's made thus far, I assume it's not that huge a deal for all the reasons mentioned above.

 

And even if the ratios /were/ going to be impacted--that already happens on such a daily basis with everything from seasonals to blacks to blusangs that I still don't think it'd be the end of the world.

[Red2111]

heres an out of the box idea.

 

 

what if unfreezing the dragons causes them to turn into a new species? sorta like a reverse Zombie.

 

i mean, biologically speaking, if your frozen and then brought back to life there would have to be some adverse side effects.

 

 

so have the action allowed, one a certain day of the year, and make it a new breed of dragon (perhaps unbreedable like the zombie). and make the result of unfreezing 50% kill, 25% stays frozen, 25% turned.

 

it solves the abuse possability and the effecting ratio problem.

 

 

the other problem i see with unfreezing and lettling the babies grow up like normal is the discontinued breeds. this basically brings them back into circulation, which is something the artists didnt want iirc.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Red2111

[angelicdragonpuppy]

i mean, biologically speaking, if your frozen and then brought back to life there would have to be some adverse side effects.

 

 

so have the action allowed, one a certain day of the year, and make it a new breed of dragon (perhaps unbreedable like the zombie).   and make the result of unfreezing 75% chance of killing the hatchie

 

it solves the abuse possability and the effecting ratio problem.

 

 

the other problem i see with unfreezing and lettling the babies grow up like normal is the discontinued breeds.  this basically brings them back into circulation, which is something the artists didnt want iirc.

Well, first and foremost, such unfreezing defeats pretty much the entire reason most of us want unfreezing. So it's not a very viable suggestion as far as most are concerned.

 

Secondly--unfreezing a frozen thing that had been literally frozen would indeed have such consequences, but we're talking about magical youth spells here, not dragons-turned-ice-sculpture. Since DC's pretty rampant with magic (I mean, darn, we can cast eternal youth spells pretty much as we like--that's hardcore magic right there!), I don't think we need to go a realistic route when discussing a magical counter-spell. If we're awesome enough to cast such magic I think we'd be skilled enough to remove it without creating horrible mutants and death left and right in the process. It might be difficult to do (RP logic for the long cooldown), and it might have taken years to figure out the spell (more RP logic trololo), but it should be doable, I think.

 

As long as the hatchlings couldn't be traded (which seems to be the strongest opinion right now), they wouldn't really be in circulation, since they'd be tied to whoever originally got them. Think of it as swapping out the hatchling sprite for the adult one, like people could once swap out Old Pinks for New Pinks. Since we were allowed to keep the sprites on our scroll to begin with, instead of having them replaced, I don't think that'd be a huge deal (especially not when--I think?--the creator of the Frills already allows them to be won in the raffle).

Edited January 7, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Jazeki]

 

 

Not this Christmas, no. The holiday eggs were pretty scarce to begin with, and only messy lineages were dumped back to the AP repeatedly.

 

 

 

 

I think this is actually subjective. All of my second gens from this year save for one that was gifted came from the AP. I also bred a ton of 2nd gens that went to the AP. Messy ones that I was able to catch were put in the departure thread and happily adopted. But that is neither here nor there as what I experienced will be different from what you or anyone else experienced. Though it does lend me to be more inclined to agree with Hawkster's response. Not that you are entirely wrong about messy things being tossed to the AP, but Hawkster is right that more good lineages have appeared and will appear regardless of whether or not unfreezing is allowed.

[Hawkster]

Frozen hatchlings count for the ratios same as adults. For the first YEAR of life same as adults. Which means, if they are older than a year it doesn't matter which stage they are, they don't (or shouldn't) count. and if they are less than a year old they are still counted in the ratios even as frozen hatchlings.

 

So, I really don't understand this argument. Yes it allows more breeding attempts: but those attempts will be governed by the ratios so I really don't understand how that is going to majorly crush the system.

Ah ok and if true than that should not be as major a concern than. Still think this should be addressed more appropriately though.

 

For example .. if unfreezing one that is less than a year nothing is changed as it still is included in the 'current' ratio numbers.

 

If unfreezing one that is older than a year, there should be some recommendation and proposal on what should be done.

1) As logical they would potentially be an influx once they become adults and nothing would be done as this would be acceptable as part of the natural true count of dragon cave community.

2) Some suggestion to keep them from being included in the ratios IF whatever unfreeze action is performed.

3) Any other possible recommendations.

 

Just because in your opinion they shouldnt be counted does not mean game mechanics will treat it this way, and as far as I know only TJ really knows the answer to this.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

For example .. if unfreezing one that is less than a year nothing is changed as it still is included in the 'current' ratio numbers.

 

If unfreezing one that is older than a year, there should be some recommendation and proposal on what should be done.

1) As logical they would potentially be an influx once they become adults and nothing would be done as this would be acceptable as part of the natural true count of dragon cave community.

2) Some suggestion to keep them from being included in the ratios IF whatever unfreeze action is performed.

3) Any other possible recommendations.

The biggest suggestion right now is that nothing under a year (or maybe 13 months, to prevent people from freezing Holidays and then unfreezing in time for next year's Holiday breeding) can be unfrozen. So that won't happen.

 

Adults wouldn't be included in the ratios, but their offspring would. However, I don't think this is a horrible thing:

1) As acknowledged, the dragon population is increasing vastly every day, so a few more (again, current idea is 11/year, and not everyone will unfreeze--much less breed--that many) likely wouldn't have much effect

2) Current ratios would already regulate what they can breed

3) It's something the cave would have had to deal with anyway if people hadn't chosen to freeze them, so I think it's safe to believe the cave has ways to deal with a scenario that very well could have happened.

Edited January 7, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Crockturtle566]

I know a lot of people are saying this that the dragon should grow to adult right away but I think I came up with something that would help this make sense. If a dragon was unfrozen then how about all that time they have been frozen catches up with them and makes to adult right away? Now I know someone might say "But what if the dragon is from 2007 and time in dragon cave is a lot faster than real time so wouldn't the dragon just die?"

 

Little something from the view page of all adult dragons "Dragons are creatures with nearly unlimited life spans. They can survive for long periods of time, and no one has found a dragon that has died of old age."

 

Edit: Grammar fix

Edited January 7, 2014 by Crockturtle566

[Syphoneira]

Haven't been too lively the past while, which has definitely had more than physical effects, so the odds of my being in error are higher than usual, lol, but while there are many who could better address this, (although there've been a fair number of posts added since I began to type this, lol):

 

 

Since to my mind the dis-spelled hatchling has an eternal youth spell removed to allow it to become an adult, it would logically become an insta-adult when the spell was lifted, and I'd say a natural cycle of a year would make a lot more sense than an odd cycle for the limitation of lifting the spell.

 

It's been pointed out that by someone back in the thread that if a period of 31 rather than 30 days is deemed to form a month that only a maximum of 11 dis-spellings could actually be performed in a year, so that 12 of these would put any dispelling after the period on which the hatchy hatched - which would be at least 2 days after the point on which its egg was bred/dropped, well after any period in which any Frozen Holiday from the previous year could actually breed in the one following.

 

One cannot get the current year's CB Christmas/Halloween/Valentine dragons until Christmas/Halloween/Valentine Day, the last day of the Christmas/Halloween/Valentine breeding period(s).

 

Even a day after this would not allow for breeding the following year, so that even the 2 days required for hatching should make the dragon unable to grow up in time to do so.

 

Therefore, I'd think that calling for a 13 month cycle for unFreezing youngsters would be unnecessary on any such grounds?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, Hawkster!

 

To reply to some of your concerns:

 

 

'... The op asked to state reasons why changing it would have a negative impact. This is actually reverse, this thread should be coming up with enough positive reasons to influence TJ and everyone else WHY it should be changed. ...'

 

 

This is so that concerns can be addressed and dealt with in the suggestion - the benefits are also listed in the OP, as shown below.

 

'... How would the ability to unfreeze, with the proposed limitations, benefit the cave?

1. Players who froze a hatchling before a rule change (i.e. the ability to collect more than 2 of past holidays) would be able to alter the freezing based on new circumstances.

2. New players and lineage collectors would benefit from having more CB/good-lineaged past breeds in the mating pool and could collect non-discontinued sprites of a lower generation.

3. The action, instead of creating an exception for a certain group as was formerly suggested, would be available to everyone.

4. More congruent RP: If we're powerful enough mages to cast a spell of eternal youth, why wouldn't we be able to lift it?

5. Unfreezing would be forced upon no one; those who have frozen hatchlings who don't want to unfreeze them wouldn't have to. One person's decision to unfreeze would in no way affect the scroll of someone who didn't want to unfreeze.

6. People who made a stupid mistake as a newcomer (or even as an older player) would be able to undo that action, giving them a better overall playing experience. ...

 

 

 

... This should also include proposals/suggestions on how to go about accomplishing this change. Which for the most part has already been included in the OP's post with exception on how to not impact ratio changes, especially for rares. ...

 

 

This would be one of the concerns mentioned above.

 

 

 

 

'... Does the OP have persuasive enough arguments to change the permanent status? Specifically with what TJ has already stated "Should freezing be permanent? ...'

 

 

 

Some of us think so, others don't - this is in the process of being hashed out here.

 

The reasons certainly seem to cover the situation, at least from my viewpoint, speaking as one personally unaffected by this.

 

 

 

 

'... How would the ability to unfreeze, with the proposed limitations, benefit the cave?

1. Players who froze a hatchling before a rule change (i.e. the ability to collect more than 2 of past holidays) would be able to alter the freezing based on new circumstances. yea true for those that had them prior to the rule change, but as TJ implied this is really trying to make up for a one time exclusion. This is not a good argument to try and influence TJ to change this. You really should be trying to address the exact opposite, not try to make it appear like it is trying to make up for a one time exclusion. How does this address players that have a frozen hatchling now after the rule change? How will changing this benefit those players? ...'

 

 

Apart from that associated with a change in circumstances, the situation is similar to that of the Zombie removal BSA, which benefited only a small group of people, and had no effect on the rest of us, who either have no zombies or who wish to keep the ones they have.

 

Whether any or many will use it hereafter, nobody knows, but for those who do, the benefit is obvious.

 

The same holds true here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

'... 2. New players and lineage collectors would benefit from having more CB/good-lineaged past breeds in the mating pool and could collect non-discontinued sprites of a lower generation. Once again true, however this is already happening all the time anyway. I have heard time and time again how every year there are more and more good past holiday eggs available. Plus as many have stated there were lot more people breeding now that limit was raised, so once again this is already happening. Do we really need this as well to accomplish this reason? I tend to think not. ...'

 

 

 

There have been the annual additions from previous years, adding a new sprite to the bred pool as well as the Cave: there will be more CB/good-lineaged past breeds in the mating pool for next year and those following, because of more long-term players having more nicely lineaged bred Holidays to breed and working on lineages for themselves and others, with extra eggs entering the AP for the much larger pool now collecting them.

 

However, because of this larger pool of players able to take amounts restricted only by what their scrolls can hold, enough bred eggs need to be produced to build up enough that new people will not have difficulty in obtaining their own, and any additions to the pool - especially for this upcoming first year of expanded breeding opportunity - will be helpful.

 

There appeared to be many more Holly eggs this year, which I would suspect was at least in part due to people being able to keep bred eggs for the first time, as well as the removal of concerns that bred eggs would not be homed.

 

But people will be able for the first time to work on lineages that can only be continued, one gen at a time, on an annual basis, and the pool should grow over time, with the DC population.

 

 

 

 

 

'... 3. The action, instead of creating an exception for a certain group as was formerly suggested, would be available to everyone. True, but does every one want or need this? I do not normally freeze and I see no reason why this should not remain permanent. Only one listed here to partly answer some of what TJ stated, but not strong enough reason alone to warrant a change. ...'

 

 

We have had other actions/BSAs implemented which benefited only a specific group, and I cannot understand why something which would make a smaller group happy - like Expunge or like this dis-spelling - should be prevented on the grounds that not everyone needs or wants it.

 

I don't Freeze either and some of the strongest supporters of this have no use for this proposed action/BSA - we just think it would be fair, under the altered circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

'... 4. More congruent RP: If we're powerful enough mages to cast a spell of eternal youth, why wouldn't we be able to lift it? Maybe possible, but like in Real, humans have had capability to freeze someone for decades now. Unfreezing them however is another issue that is not as capable. So sorry but RP reason is unrealistic. Definitely not persuasive. ...'

 

 

 

 

Please think about what you've just said, lol - there is a literal world of difference between casting/removing a spell of eternal (edit: childhood) and freezing people in the real world and being able to unfreeze them; there is a difference between a video game in a virtual medieval world where dragons and magic exist and the real world; and the rules of virtual worlds in which magic and dragons exist need only RP reasons, not conformity to the limitations which exist in the real world, which, sadly, does not have magic and dragons, and in which RP reasons do not apply.

 

 

 

 

'... 5. Unfreezing would be forced upon no one; those who have frozen hatchlings who don't want to unfreeze them wouldn't have to. One person's decision to unfreeze would in no way affect the scroll of someone who didn't want to unfreeze. Wrong. Until the issue of ratio's is addressed, this will impact EVERYONE whether they choose to unfreeze or not. Even if that is addressed, it still impacts everyone, just because one chooses not to use it, it is still no longer PERMANENT and so therefor it is being forced upon them whether they want it or not. This is the worst reason listed to counteract what TJ has stated. ...'

 

 

 

 

In that case, we need to address the ratios and work out what impact this could have on them - which only TJ can tell us - and whether this is/can be made feasible - which only TJ can tell us.

 

 

In the interim between my beginning this and point of posting, I see that someone has already made the point that these Frozens should have been in the ratios from previous years and should themselves not affect current ones by reaching adulthood now.

 

Any effect had would therefore have been due to their removal from the breeding pool in following years, which could now be rectified.

 

(Lol, I'd had some idea that Holidays didn't have ratios applied, due to the lack of year-round breeding, and would never even have thought of this!)

 

 

If something that does not apply to us or affect us is changed to aid those who are beneficially affected by it, by definition, it does not affect us.

 

 

 

'... 6. People who made a stupid mistake as a newcomer (or even as an older player) would be able to undo that action, giving them a better overall playing experience. Does this mean we should make allowances for every stupid mistake that players have done? Can I go back and change the sex of one my adults (as newcomer I screwed up many lineages due to not knowing better) or can I go back and retrieve that egg from AP that I bred when I was egg locked. This list could go on and on. If we did this, one would not learn from their mistakes as there would be no consequences to their actions if they could easily just go back and correct every single stupid mistake. This is almost as lame as one above ...'

 

 

 

 

This appears to be what was TJ has been mentioning as false equivalency arguments.

 

This is also, in most cases, not even a 'stupid mistake' fix (some actions have been stated to have been wrongly placed due to a problem most of us have suffered at some point with page-jumping at the instant of clicking, a technical issue) but a specific suggestion predominately based on altered circumstances having changed the effect of decisions made on what was then best information no longer holding true.

 

 

 

'... tl;dr: this suggestion needs much more persuasive reasons to warrant a change from making freezing no longer being permanent. ...'

 

 

We have had many changes to conditions once stated to be permanent and the mere fact of what is *an existing warning* that a condition is (at the time) permanent doesn't necessarily constitute any absolute inability of TJ to ever change his mind on that subject at any point.

 

Does this help to answer any of your concerns?

 

 

 

Further edit: for a couple of letter removals missed during sentence reconstruction.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Syphoneira

[HeatherMarie]

 

6. People who made a stupid mistake as a newcomer (or even as an older player) would be able to undo that action, giving them a better overall playing experience. Does this mean we should make allowances for every stupid mistake that players have done? Can I go back and change the sex of one my adults (as newcomer I screwed up many lineages due to not knowing better) or can I go back and retrieve that egg from AP that I bred when I was egg locked. This list could go on and on. If we did this, one would not learn from their mistakes as there would be no consequences to their actions if they could easily just go back and correct every single stupid mistake. This is almost as lame as one above

 

tl;dr: this suggestion needs much more persuasive reasons to warrant a change from making freezing no longer being permanent.

Once again, this point has been addressed multiple times. It basically comes down to: Just because other things can't be undone is *not* a good reason to say that one thing shouldn't be able to be undone. Just because you can't have *everything* you want, doesn't mean users shouldn't be able to have *anything* they want. It's not black and white like that.

 

Imo, there are a *lot* of persuasive reasons in favor of this change, the most simple being that it will make many users happy, and increase the overall lineage pool. Imo, this suggestion actually has very few persuasive reasons *against* it that have not already been addressed multiple times.

 

As for ratios, that's something that we can only debate about in speculation, since only TJ knows exactly how they work. However, since he *has* said that dragons only count in ratios for a year, and this suggestion makes unfreezing impossible for a year or more, I'm not sure that would matter in the first place. The issue there is knowing if an unfrozen hatchling would count as "this year", or would only count in the year it was made/hatched. And only TJ can answer that.

[Syphoneira]

Also: if a rush of 'lengthy (for years) hiatus' people should return during a Holiday to breed their Holiday dragons or, heaven forbid, a large number of people suddenly not be able or willing to breed all at once, what would this do to the ratios?

 

There must be some means within the system or otherwise possible to cope with variations...

[Tawanda001]

Just going to point out a couple of things.

 

I keep seeing the phrase 'because of new/changed circumstances' being used. Since the only changed circumstance is the lifting of holiday limits, and TJ has said no to making an exception for that, this argument seems sort of circular to me.

 

The comparison between unfreezing and things like name changes, earthquake, expunge are not really comparable. Unfreezing hatchies and breeding eggs to gift, trade, or dump to the AP will affect all other players that pick up those eggs, to a lessor or greater extent, while those other actions affect mostly no one other than the scroll owner themselves.