Same Sex Breeding/Adoption

[annageckos]

The biggest difference I see with real world female x female pairings (like with certain lizards) is that the young do not contain DNA from both 'parents'. It's been a while since I've done any research on this, so my info is limited, but doesn't the one female basically just stimulate the other female (act the part of the male) so that the 'female' produce eggs/young (can't remember if they lay eggs or have live young). But I thought this suggestion was not same sex breeding, but same sex adoption, where the new pair, be it male x male or female x female are listed as the parents instead of the biological parents.

 

Edited January 5, 2014 by annageckos

[Obscure_Trash]

Can we please stop talking about Female X Female?

There's no reason to stop talking about it if it's relevant to the discussion. If it's inappropriate according to board rules, please use the report button in the upper right of every post to alert a mod. Otherwise, if it's on topic there's no need to steer away from the discussion. If it's something that makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to discuss it if you want, but others may continue it if relevant to the discussion.

 

Honestly, something about official 'adoptions' of dragons with different parents sounds very pet-site-y and My Little Pony or whatever to me - not something I'd associate with DC at all - and I speak as one who has been known to anthropomorphize her dragons, lol.

 

I can see your point here, although I would support adopting (doing adopted links, not replacing the lineage) over anything else. xP

Edited January 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Dr. Paine]

The biggest difference I see with real world female x female pairings (like with certain lizards) is that the young do not contain DNA from both 'parents'. It's been a while since I've done any research on this, so my info is limited, but doesn't the one female basically just stimulate the other female (act the part of the male) so that the 'female' produce eggs/young (can't remember if they lay eggs or have live young). But I thought this suggestion was not same sex breeding, but same sex adoption, where the new pair, be it male x male or female x female are listed as the parents instead of the biological parents.

 

Since I've made a post on this from a mod perspective, I'm removing the last bit of your post.

It's eggs, and yeah Each one is more or less a clone of the mother, but given how DC's eggs work (where it's one or the other of the parent), I figure that wouldn't cause too much trouble for lineage views.

 

 

And I do know this started off as an adoption idea, but that seems to be pretty roundly shot down... so I figured that might inject a bit of new life/possibility into things, and was... well, mostly showing that female/female breeding is not as impossible (/without significant human intervention) as one might think

Edited January 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Syphoneira]

It's eggs, and yeah Each one is more or less a clone of the mother, but given how DC's eggs work (where it's one or the other of the parent), I figure that wouldn't cause too much trouble for lineage views.

 

 

And I do know this started off as an adoption idea, but that seems to be pretty roundly shot down... so I figured that might inject a bit of new life/possibility into things, and was... well, mostly showing that female/female breeding is not as impossible (/without significant human intervention) as one might think

 

 

 

Wouldn't that need to be a specific breed created with the capacity for parthenogenetic reproduction?

 

It doesn't seem very logical to suddenly alter the method of reproduction in existing dragons never before having had such a capacity, especially without the permission of the spriters.

 

 

Edit: not to mention the fact that, by definition, it would become possible to reproduce only the breed of the female.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Syphoneira

[CNR4806]

I feel like we're getting off the scope of the original suggestion, which is about adoption but with a misleading thread title.

 

Are we now discussing what the title suggests rather than what the OP actually suggested now? I'm a little lost here.

[tenavosi]

I say nay to same-sex breeding or adoption, for the reasons other posters have already listed before me. If people want to specify adoption, that can be done in descriptions. No need for this.

[Dr. Paine]

 

 

Wouldn't that need to be a specific breed created with the capacity for parthenogenetic reproduction?

 

It doesn't seem very logical to suddenly alter the method of reproduction in existing dragons never before having had such a capacity, especially without the permission of the spriters.

 

 

Edit: not to mention the fact that, by definition, it would become possible to reproduce only the breed of the female.

Actually... parthenogenesis has also been documented in Komodo Dragons (and I think some other reptilian species), a female spontaneously laid a clutch of eggs, and all were males! The article mentions that it's thought to be a method of keeping the species alive if there's only one isolated female and no males. Not great for diversity, but it keeps them going and allows them to reproduce the usual way later on.

 

Now, I do agree it'd be good to get spriter/conceptor opinions first, but unless any of them have gotten their dragon info down to the chromosomal level, it isn't too hard to just say 'hey these giant lizards act like other giant lizards and can occasionally produce eggs without the need for males' or something like that; and produce only the mother's species... but maybe for balance purposes, offspring could be either male or female, sort of a hybrid of the whiptail lizards and komodo dragon methods?

 

... -cough- but I suppose this is getting off of the OP's plans ^^; Which, again, appear to have just been shot down from all ends, so... -shrug- If this is going too far off though, I will cease responses on the subject after this post, and I am sorry ^^;

 

[Oasis]

Female X Female is wrong it's impossible in real life it's a game we don't need gayness.

Wow so that's not offensive...

 

But yeah don't think the changing lineages thing is necessary.

[Jayfeather462]

I say nay to same-sex breeding or adoption, for the reasons other posters have already listed before me. If people want to specify adoption, that can be done in descriptions. No need for this.

Let's just get back to the adoption subject. The thread name is really misleading.

[tenavosi]

Let's just get back to the adoption subject. The thread name is really misleading.

I was addressing the subject of adoption.

[Obscure_Trash]

I feel like we're getting off the scope of the original suggestion, which is about adoption but with a misleading thread title.

 

Are we now discussing what the title suggests rather than what the OP actually suggested now? I'm a little lost here.

I don't see what's wrong with a suggestion evolving, especially if members are pretty against the original suggestion and are trying to flesh out the idea into something more workable. If it's really that confusing for people to read the thread and follow it, as I've seen a few comments on it now, the OP can be updated.

 

~

 

If the OP isn't around to do it, I would appreciate if another user would send me a summary or some quotes of the new ideas that popped up so I can place them in the first post. Hey, I can even manage to edit the title if someone suggests a wider, more explanatory title that makes sense.

[Jayfeather462]

A suggestion for the title? How about Dragon egg adopting?

[Primaltimediamond]

maybe add a little something to the page like under the spot where the last bred bit goes "mated to: *insertdragonnamehere* " and under children "adoped children" it'd link to a different page with a list else it'd get quite cluttered and users can add names to that list.

 

just to give it a bit more of an offcial feel instead of putting it in a description which is a great option yes but it still has a limited about how many characters you put in and some will probaly reject a discription if it only says something like "Lily is mated to Mayday and together they adopted 4 children" if the one who wrote the discirption doesn't feel on expanding info on the dragon

 

just my 2 cents here

[Jayfeather462]

That makes sense

[love_HP]

You can put that IN DESCRIPTIONS as it is. But NOT in lineages.

If we are allowed to put (grown) dragon links in descriptions, then yes.

But it's very inconvenient now; if I want to mention a dragon's "adoptive parents" I can't refer a link directly to them.

[Ninetails]

If we are allowed to put (grown) dragon links in descriptions, then yes.

But it's very inconvenient now; if I want to mention a dragon's "adoptive parents" I can't refer a link directly to them.

I'm kind of more or less popping into this conversation, but couldn't you simply put the parents' code in parentheses or something? I've never tried it, but I'm sure it would be fine with the person approving the description.

-shrugs-

[Nectaris]

Now, I do agree it'd be good to get spriter/conceptor opinions first, but unless any of them have gotten their dragon info down to the chromosomal level, it isn't too hard to just say 'hey these giant lizards act like other giant lizards and can occasionally produce eggs without the need for males' or something like that; and produce only the mother's species... but maybe for balance purposes, offspring could be either male or female, sort of a hybrid of the whiptail lizards and komodo dragon methods?

 

My biggest issue is, can mammals do this without human aid, what about birds? I tend to think of dragons as considerably more advanced evolution-wise, than lizards and think they fit into their own category somewhere between birds, mammals, and reptiles, like there was a third branch off of reptilia.

 

I would really rather not have this for turpentines, it doesn't fit their personality or even their biology. They are pack creatures, with multiple males and females in the pack. On the rare occasion of all the males being wiped out while the pack still exists as a pack, young, bachelor males wander between packs, particularly during mating season. The likelihood of them going maleless for so long is very unlikely, they are intelligent, they know the value of patience and the lack of young for one year would not greatly inconvenience anyone..

 

And personally, I would rather it not be retconned into any other breed unless the spriter(s) specifically state that they can. If their spriter/conceptor is inactive, leave the breed alone. I wouldn't object to any future breed being able to do this, particularly if they were created with this intention.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nectaris

[Ivyeth]

The idea is to have 2 dragons of the same gender adopt an egg from the abandoned area. Simple.

It will be the same as breeding, with the lineage and process. But the egg's lineage is lost, and its replaced by the parents' lineage.

OR...

The egg is taken from the cave instead of the abandoned area so its cave born and has no lineage.

Oh, that's an interesting topic

But, my main idea is WHYwould dragons do this?

Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but I don't personify dragons in Dragon Cave. For me they are more like animals than humas.

[Obscure_Trash]

Hey-o, edited the first post if anyone wants to look at the ideas that have been brought up.

[Guillotine]

My biggest issue is, can mammals do this without human aid, what about birds?  I tend to think of dragons as considerably more advanced evolution-wise, than lizards and think they fit into their own category somewhere between birds, mammals, and reptiles, like there was a third branch off of reptilia.

 

Birds are a subgroup of reptiles (from therapods) and evolution doesn't have "advanced" vs. "unadvanced". But anyway: Yes, some birds have been recorded as laying fertile/viable eggs without males. It's not as common or successful as with reptiles and snakes (it's been recorded in turkeys, chickens, and domestic pigeons as well as zebra finch), but it has been known to happen. It's also possible that other groups haven't been recorded doing so; a lot of wild animals have issues breeding in captivity, and that's really the only way to consistently verify such things. (Fish have been known to do this as well, btw. And sharks are pretty complicated critters.)

 

That said, I totally agree that this would have to be implemented on a breed-by-breed basis.

 

And Ivyeth, adoption is a well-recorded behavior in wild and domesticated animals. (Notable instances include a lioness who repeatedly adopted gazelles and a leopard who adopted a baboon, as well as others I don't remember the details of. And if you want species-wide behaviors, about 1/4 of all black swan parents are male pairs who drive females off their nests and raise the babies themselves (more of their cygnets survive than traditional pairs, incidentally), and broody hens will brood anything, including kittens and adult sparrows.

[Dr. Paine]

Birds are a subgroup of reptiles (from therapods) and evolution doesn't have "advanced" vs. "unadvanced". But anyway: Yes, some birds have been recorded as laying fertile/viable eggs without males. It's not as common or successful as with reptiles and snakes (it's been recorded in turkeys, chickens, and domestic pigeons as well as zebra finch), but it has been known to happen. It's also possible that other groups haven't been recorded doing so; a lot of wild animals have issues breeding in captivity, and that's really the only way to consistently verify such things. (Fish have been known to do this as well, btw. And sharks are pretty complicated critters.)

 

That said, I totally agree that this would have to be implemented on a breed-by-breed basis.

 

And Ivyeth, adoption is a well-recorded behavior in wild and domesticated animals. (Notable instances include a lioness who repeatedly adopted gazelles and a leopard who adopted a baboon, as well as others I don't remember the details of. And if you want species-wide behaviors, about 1/4 of all black swan parents are male pairs who drive females off their nests and raise the babies themselves (more of their cygnets survive than traditional pairs, incidentally), and broody hens will brood anything, including kittens and adult sparrows.

Huh... never knew that about birds, that's awesome ._. Any sources?

 

(And as Flamingo mama, I'd like to go on record as saying I'd be completely cool with saying they have the capability of producing viable eggs without males. ... honestly, given their living conditions, fighting nature and occasional egg eating, it makes sense that females would have a sort of backup if there were no suitable males in the area.

 

... that and the idea of some kind of flock of amazonian flamingos is waaaaay too awesome to not make real. So yeah, there we go )

[Ivyeth]

And Ivyeth, adoption is a well-recorded behavior in wild and domesticated animals. (Notable instances include a lioness who repeatedly adopted gazelles and a leopard who adopted a baboon, as well as others I don't remember the details of. And if you want species-wide behaviors, about 1/4 of all black swan parents are male pairs who drive females off their nests and raise the babies themselves (more of their cygnets survive than traditional pairs, incidentally), and broody hens will brood anything, including kittens and adult sparrows.

I get that, but still, there aren't too much species who do this, as well as humans.

This is very unusual occurrence.

[Fuzzbucket]

I get that, but still, there aren't too much species who do this, as well as humans.

This is very unusual occurrence.

And I imagine it would be unusual among dragon breeders too. But a few people want the option, is all.

[Daypaw]

I like this idea and the option would be nice to have (I'd die for a dragon with two male silver parents) but I could see this being difficult to work out with the lineages unless it is strictly another 'breed' option- like have the 'adopt' option right below the 'breed' option and just bring up a list of same-gender dragons and have it work exactly the same otherwise (egg adopted, no egg found, dragons refuse to cooperate with one-another) -- the adopted egg being the same breed as one of the parents. It would open up so many new lineage possibilities.

 

I would think that taking from the AP and wiping the lineage would be difficult to code (and possibly offensive to those who abandoned those eggs) and that taking from the cave would be difficult to code, as well.

[Guillotine]

Huh... never knew that about birds, that's awesome ._. Any sources?

 

(And as Flamingo mama, I'd like to go on record as saying I'd be completely cool with saying they have the capability of producing viable eggs without males. ... honestly, given their living conditions, fighting nature and occasional egg eating, it makes sense that females would have a sort of backup if there were no suitable males in the area.

 

... that and the idea of some kind of flock of amazonian flamingos is waaaaay too awesome to not make real. So yeah, there we go )

My sources are "any reputable paleontologist since the '90s". :v But more seriously, birds are widely accepted as dinosaurs (specifically Coelurosauria) by modern science since they share many physical traits with coelurosaurs (including feathers and various bone structures). Those that dispute this are generally discredited for a variety of reasons and actively disregard any evidence that contradicts their expectations (and I have seen this in action; I have no clue why people think they have any credibility left). Feathered Dinosaurs: The Origin of Birds (John Long and Peter Schouten) is a pretty good book if you want a (really pretty) physical reference written by a paleontologist. Annnd I'll stop paleonerding now.

 

On topic: for adoption (as opposed to the parthenogenesis discussion which is basically breeding), the eggs definitely shouldn't be taken from the AP. Not sure what to do from there. The "renamed breeding" idea is nice, though.