Same Sex Breeding/Adoption

[Spark-Dragon]

I saw this somewhere here on DC, but I can't remember where... There was a Marriage Equality Day thread which was closed with TJ's comment of: "While I personally support marriage equality and the right for people to marry whomever they want, no amounts of backing will change basic biology, which is what is being proposed here. In addition, I try to keep DC as free from political and sociocultural issues as possible (I have made very few exceptions in the past seven years); people play games to escape from the problems of reality, not be bombarded by them." because that idea had to do with a day to celebrate marriage equality by letting two dragons of the same sex breed. However, I think the biology comment is relevant here, so it's something to keep in mind as this topic is discussed.

 

The idea is to have 2 dragons of the same gender adopt an egg from the abandoned area. Simple.

It will be the same as breeding, with the lineage and process. But the egg's lineage is lost, and its replaced by the parents' lineage.

OR...

The egg is taken from the cave instead of the abandoned area so its cave born and has no lineage.

The success rate will be the same as for normal breeding, as well as what breed of egg it will turn out.

 

Another option is for it to be a BSA. Maybe for a Guardian of Nature? Or is that too much to ask...? c:

How this would work is you take the dragon that will have the BSA, pick the 2 dragons you want to 'breed', and that dragon goes out and gets the egg for them.

 

 

Edit:

 

So many replies so fast! D:

I guess what everyone is saying is right though, this will need a lot of work to work.

I'll just leave it to the professionals then... or maybe I should work on this? Adopt BSA anyone?

 

This topic has gained a lot of replies and many ideas. Below are some other thoughts on this idea and how it may work.

 

Number one thing to list is that most commenting users are against the ability to alter lineages for this.

 

There's too many jumbled posts on this, so instead of a quote, I'm listing it:

• There is always the option to have same sex relationships and adoption in descriptions. The description approval thread specially lists GSD dragons (better known as LGBT dragons) with a special note so those interested can find them.

People rolling with the description idea:

 

There was an idea Herk posted somewhere about being able to link dragons descriptions to dragons mentioned in their description. I am going to be lazy and not go find the link, but it shouldn't be hard. This seems like it would tie into this idea very well.

 

That way you could link your dragons, link their relationship, and link their adopted children. Frankly most dragon "parents" suck if you look at the domesticated ones. Most of their babies just get Dumped in the AP. Adoption is a pretty standard process of rearing young be it with a single, paired, group, or entire colony of dragons. Regardless of gender or lack thereof. As cheese and paper and dinos can adopt and raise dragons just as easily. And so can chickens.

 

Interlinking descriptions: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=151213

 

Enabling html links in descriptions should solve this rather neatly. Don't know how much coding it'd require to make the [ url=www.blah]Rainbow Sparkle Sunshine[/url] to show up in the descriptions like bbcode, but that could be a great compromise

 

People rolling out other ideas for same sex breeding/adoption:

 

The only thing I can see happening is possibly adding a 'relationships' section where you can manually type in which dragons are friends with others to aid RP, possibly even allowing a html link to the dragon in question, but that's not creating anything so should be ok.

 

I remember a suggestion a while ago that was sort of like this, but it was more as a kind of fun joke sort of thing rather than actual breeding. I think it was a suggestion that you breed the two dragons of the same gender together and get a message like "the dragons didn't produce an egg, but they had a lot of fun trying" or something to that effect which I believe another collectables site does already. Magistream maybe?

 

I would support the ability to add a note "adopted by" similar to the vampire's "bitten by" note on a dragon's page. It's not a big deal to me because you can already put that information in the dragon description, but having an "adopted" tag on the dragon's personal info list does seem like a reasonable way to be inclusive of adopted/adoptive players and/or gay players. But throwing out the original lineage and replacing it with another just seems like a cheap way of turning all one's messy lineages into gold, so to speak.

 

maybe add a little something to the page like under the spot where the last bred bit goes "mated to: *insertdragonnamehere* " and under children "adoped children" it'd link to a different page with a list else it'd get quite cluttered and users can add names to that list.

 

Hm...maybe instead of adoption this could be a function for a dragon type?

 

What if 2 same sex dragons (of a specific breed, perhaps it could be a BSA of a certain new breed) could 'breed' and make like some kind of rainbow dragon lol that'd be cute

 

If you want to propose a concept that allows same-sex breeding, that's awesome. Just be sure you have a scientifically accurate reason for why they can. For example--an all female breed could produce via parthenogenesis, much like female Whiptail lizards.

 

*There's lots of discussion on parthenogenesis on pages 4 and 5 if you want to follow the rest of this conversation. Specifically, Dr. Paine had citations and examples of documented parthenogenesis in several different species of animals. As well as this post:

 

My biggest issue is, can mammals do this without human aid, what about birds? I tend to think of dragons as considerably more advanced evolution-wise, than lizards and think they fit into their own category somewhere between birds, mammals, and reptiles, like there was a third branch off of reptilia.

 

I would really rather not have this for turpentines, it doesn't fit their personality or even their biology. And personally, I would rather it not be retconned into any other breed unless the spriter(s) specifically state that they can. If their spriter/conceptor is inactive, leave the breed alone. I wouldn't object to any future breed being able to do this, particularly if they were created with this intention.

 

(And as Flamingo mama, I'd like to go on record as saying I'd be completely cool with saying they have the capability of producing viable eggs without males. ... honestly, given their living conditions, fighting nature and occasional egg eating, it makes sense that females would have a sort of backup if there were no suitable males in the area.

 

... that and the idea of some kind of flock of amazonian flamingos is waaaaay too awesome to not make real. So yeah, there we go )

 

After Guillotine noted that some birds have been recorded lying fertile eggs without males.

 

Offshoot ideas:

 

Yes but, they can't ''breed'' no matter what. The egg won't be fertile, and will never hatch. Of course, this could lead to a badge of unfertile eggs... What am I saying, dragons aren't chickens!

 

which led to...

 

Hmm... but that would be an awesome idea for being able to keep the egg sprite. Same sex breeding produces unfertile egg and eliminates the fuss about trapping a hatchy in its shell for all of eternity. Nice.

 

and this point:

 

That would be providing it is a female X female cross though, no male X male cross would ever produce even an unfertilized egg. And that is without the age-old question of what you would do about unbreedables, or male-only holidays. In other words, I still support other forms of non-lethal egg freezing over this.

 

 

 

Note that there are pros and cons to each these ideas which have been brought up in the various pages of the threads, but I've decided not to list here.

Edited January 10, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Whitefire]

............

 

I don't support. I can see this as being easily abused, and for dragons it's just weird. So if same gender dragons can adopt, why can't different gender dragons adopt?

[Ninetails]

God no, it just doesn't make any sense.

[lightbird]

How would dragons adopting dragons work from a coding perspective? /shrugs

[Nectaris]

............

 

I don't support. I can see this as being easily abused, and for dragons it's just weird. So if same gender dragons can adopt, why can't different gender dragons adopt?

Pretty much this. This sums up my feelings about it.

 

Also, think of it more as lineage papers, even a child adopted by two of the same sex will still have their lineage from their biological parents. If you want to have a dragon pair adopt a hatchling, you can do that in descriptions.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Nectaris

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Adopting something doesn't magically change its real genealogy. And random egg creation is a big no.

 

GoNs probably have better things to do with their time than help arrange adoptions...

 

This suggestion has come up before and always been turned down, including by TJ himself, I think?

Edited December 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[HomeForFlowers]

This really isn't that great of an idea. It doesn't make any sense and has little information supporting it. Do we really need to force same sex breeding? Are we really that desperate for it?

[purplehaze]

I am not a fan of this either. Someone has to tell me why this would be a good idea. Why would dragons even want to adopt?

[Lythiaren]

I was going to put up an argument about biology but then I read the actual post and I was glad I didn't.

 

It is an action that makes sense from the RP perspective, as animals in the wild do sometimes adopt abandoned or orphaned offspring. And since CB eggs fall under the former category, I don't see why dragons can't adopt them.

 

But I do agree with Whitefire, there is room here for doctoring lineages and such. An orphan still came from the same parents no matter who raises it. And why restrict adoption to same-sex pairs?

 

(numerous edits for lots of things like grammar because can't I brain today)

Edited December 23, 2013 by Lythiaren

[rumor33]

Don't support, seems unnecessary, conveluted, and depending on how it's implemented very easy to abuse. Seems like a lot of sound and fury to me.

 

[Brite]

Too strange. I don't support.

[dragongrrl]

I have dragons that have "adopted" eggs or hatchlings along the way, but it is done through the descriptions, where nobody's gender matters.

 

To make this something that alters a lineage though, I don't really like it. And RP or rl, there is always part of a person's genetic heritage that shapes some part of who that individual is. Nature plays a part, as well as Nurture.

[Lady_DragonRider]

It is an action that makes sense from the RP perspective, as animals in the wild do sometimes adopt abandoned or orphaned offspring. And since CB eggs fall under the former category, I don't see why dragons can't adopt them.

In the wild it does happen, but DC wild dragons wont touch an egg if it has been touched by human hands, they don't seem like a spices that would adopt if something such as the touch of a human hand makes them reject their own eggs. Also, a lot of the dragon breeds are rather aggressive and would be more likely to harm than adopt. Some tame dragons might adopt, I guess. Still don't support the idea, it just seems too odd for DC.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Lady_DragonRider

[DarkEternity]

In the wild it does happen, but DC wild dragons wont touch an egg if it has been touched by human hands, they don't seem like a spices that would adopt if something such as the touch of a human hand makes them reject their own eggs. Also, a lot of the dragon breeds are rather aggressive and would be more likely to harm than adopt. Some tame dragons might adopt, I guess. Still don't support the idea, it just seems too odd for DC.

No, to have an AP and claim dragon eggs, you have to justify it.

If a human being (totally different species) can adopt a dragon egg, how is it difficult to imagine two dragons doing the same?

 

And the last time I checked, humans weren't quasi immortal beings able to continually fill out a magical scroll. And while we're on the 'touch' of a human, isn't that more like hiring a forklift to steal dragon eggs since it is suggested that dragon eggs are rather large?

 

Again, there's that image of 400 people in the abandoned pile all trying to steal holly eggs (especially short genned ones) in my mind....

Edited December 23, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Lythiaren]

In the wild it does happen, but DC wild dragons wont touch an egg if it has been touched by human hands, they don't seem like a spices that would adopt if something such as the touch of a human hand makes them reject their own eggs. Also, a lot of the dragon breeds are rather aggressive and would be more likely to harm than adopt. Some tame dragons might adopt, I guess. Still don't support the idea, it just seems too odd for DC.

Except the ones doing the adoption were raised by human hands and recognize that humans aren't nasty creatures trying to track down their nests. Remember, the dragons this action would apply to are the ones people own, not the wild ones who have reason to be suspicious of human scent. And on top of that, they are (mostly) intelligent creatures who are quite capable of figuring that out on their own.

 

To say that all dragons are as vicious as my vines is rather narrow.

[MinervaClay]

Again, there's that image of 400 people in the abandoned pile all trying to steal holly eggs (especially short genned ones) in my mind....

Okay this made me laugh, because I always kind of imagined the Black Friday rush over Mount Draco, making omlette mush out of the pygmy and green eggs for the seasonal eggs. I almost did art of it, honestly. (Someone needs to do this)

 

Anyway, as for the actual idea... I dunno, that just seems unnecessarily pro-gay movement. Don't get me wrong. I'm bisexual myself (TMI maybe?), I support gay rights, but it literally has no sense or reason to the effects, and would just add an overly complicated part of the game and coding while erasing the primary effects of everything DC is founded on. As said, geneology doesn't get erased. Any adoption can go through the description. Otherwise you're just going to get people dicing and splicing their lineages how they want, and again, why can't hetero-dragon-pairs adopt then, too?

 

Just... it doesn't make sense. Politically oriented, no real foundation, destroys the game foundations. Nein, no, nanka.

[DarkEternity]

It's come up multiple times, but my main interest in the whole, rather complicated affair is being able to breed some interesting lineages especially when you can't replace the individual dragons. Especially dragons like CB Prizes and CB Hollies where it is impossible and impractical to go out and grab another dragon exactly like that one and breed it instead.

 

Some sprites, for example Blusang M and Hellfire F are vastly different between the various genders. The issue of the sprites is always a factor in choosing what to influence a dragon, not only with your dragon in question, but the mate's sprites.

Edited December 23, 2013 by DarkEternity

[zaverxi]

I also don't support this. There's nothing that could be done codewise that wouldn't be abused, as others said.

 

The solution would be to add it in the description, as was also mentioned. There's no 'breeding' involved whatsoever, it would just look awful.

 

The only thing I can see happening is possibly adding a 'relationships' section where you can manually type in which dragons are friends with others to aid RP, possibly even allowing a html link to the dragon in question, but that's not creating anything so should be ok. But two male dragons somehow creating an egg, or manipulating the lineage of another? No.

 

An example of abuse I could see with this is getting a 10th gen shimmer and having a gold and silver adopt. That would immediately increase the value of said shimmer at first glance.

 

Or say, you're like me and win a lotto and get an extremely long, messy, inbred silver, like so: http://dragcave.net/lineage/c0cmM

 

With your logic, I could have had my two male CB silvers adopt her, and bam, she's a 2nd gen.

 

Would you want to trade me for it without knowing this?

[DarkEternity]

Oh, so that's what you guys mean by abuse.

Well it kind of makes sense, I suppose.

[LibbyLishly]

I have dragons that have "adopted" eggs or hatchlings along the way, but it is done through the descriptions, where nobody's gender matters. 

 

To make this something that alters a lineage though, I don't really like it.  And RP or rl, there is always part of a person's genetic heritage that shapes some part of who that individual is. Nature plays a part, as well as Nurture.

Essentially this.

 

I've seen plenty of dragons with descriptions indicating they've adopted a dragon, be it because they're single and either the owner doesn't want them to breed or the breed is unbreedable, or because they're in of a same-gender relationship, or because the dragon and their mate have already had children but adopted another one because it fit in with the RP. That's the way adoptions work, and keeping such information in the descriptions is the way it should work on DC.

 

Having an egg pulled from the AP when the mother won't even touch it because it has the scent of human on it just doesn't make sense.

Edited December 23, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[StormWizard212]

I remember a suggestion a while ago that was sort of like this, but it was more as a kind of fun joke sort of thing rather than actual breeding. I think it was a suggestion that you breed the two dragons of the same gender together and get a message like "the dragons didn't produce an egg, but they had a lot of fun trying" or something to that effect which I believe another collectables site does already. Magistream maybe?

 

Anyway, I'd be ok with seeing something like that. But something like this seems a bit odd to me. I wouldn't be opposed to a BSA or something where a certain breed is able to "adopt" a different breed and have some sort of positive effect on its growth. Or something like that. But not really this.

[tjekan]

It makes no sense for one dragon's lineage to overwrite another's. In real life, adoptive parents do not burn their children's original birth records.

 

I would support the ability to add a note "adopted by" similar to the vampire's "bitten by" note on a dragon's page. It's not a big deal to me because you can already put that information in the dragon description, but having an "adopted" tag on the dragon's personal info list does seem like a reasonable way to be inclusive of adopted/adoptive players and/or gay players. But throwing out the original lineage and replacing it with another just seems like a cheap way of turning all one's messy lineages into gold, so to speak.

[Oasis]

So this is adorable, but maybe instead of lineages it could add another little link to the dragons page? Like it could say adoptive parents or something.

[Renorei]

I would only support this if it only applied to CB eggs, and if opposite-gender dragons or "single" dragons could adopt too. I don't think it's right to essentially erase the lineage of an egg that someone else bred, and it doesn't make sense that only same sex couples could adopt and not opposite sex couples or single dragons.

 

 

[Brite]

I thought dragons(owned by humans) didn't "care" for hatchlings, even their own, since their master is there to do it themselves?