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Do mass breeds still deserve their hate?

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tl;dr: Massbreedings are the reason why we have incuhatchable eggs in the AP almost all of the time - I think some people who hate massbreedings forget that. A wall is usually gone after a few hours, while a 6-days-left egg blocks an egg slot for a whole day. So I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages of massbreeding.

 

ETA:

No, he said that it does have an effect on the ratios, but the effect is likely to be smaller than we think. While a single massbreeding of a single user is probably really just a drop in the bucket, continued massbreeding does effect the ratios, there are enough examples for that.

This. I'll have to dig up the comment by TJ, but I have found over the years that a single massive collector, who massbreeds / mega hoards, can and DOES seriously affect the ratios. Oh, a one-off shot doesn't have a big effect, but over time, someone who collects / mass breeds does have an effect.

 

And I agree: the reason we have incu-hatchable eggs in the AP is because of mass-breeding. In fact, there was a period not long ago when people weren't mass breeding.... And the AP was well above 5 days, and no one was taking the eggs.

 

So yea, I much prefer mass-breeding to no mass breeding. Yes, it can be frustrating at times, but its worth it in the end.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Mass-breedings can be frustrating, but I don't mind them. The last thing I want to see is yet another artist requesting their dragons to be permanently removed due to the wall of the same breed in the AP. (For those who recall the Frill fiasco, though I'm not sure if that was due to mass-breeding or just a whole bunch of eggs being dumped into the AP. I'm not looking for an answer to that, btw.) I don't consider it inconsiderate; it's part of the game. We had a wall of Royals for hours awhile back. It just happens and I expect to see that happen in the AP.

 

And, to echo what someone else said, it does give us incu-hatchables, and we all love those, admit it! I just got a CB Thunder from the AP, I mean yay!

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Thanks for the bump, rubyshoes!

 

I enjoy a good mass breeding once in awhile. It's a nice change from what we usually see in the AP. It can be fun to hunt through for cool lineages and codes. Right now, I have the ability to look through a page of incuhatchable eggs in the AP, thanks to yesterday's wall. I don't like Neotropicals, I don't like 2nd gen PBs, but I do like walls.

 

The game is not altruistic.

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-removed-

 

ETA: TJ has already said that this sort of nonsense has very little effect on ratios.

To answer your post about mass breeding's and TJ's answer:

 

Do Mass-Breedings really have any affect on the ratios, or are the Mass-Breeders deluding themselves?

To be pedantic, everything "has an effect;" what's important is whether or not the effect is statistically significant. That I don't know off the top of my head. It's in the category of "things I could compute if I wanted to, but haven't bothered to." I'd guess the answer is "yes, albeit in a lower capacity than people might think" but it's almost entirely an estimate.

 

He said that he didn't know the stats on it off the top of his head and he estimates it might not be as much as people thing but again, that's an estimate on his part not a statement made from factual data he pulled up or remembers off the top of his head. And some effect, even if its not in giant scale is still an effect. It may be a few ripples and not a tidal wave but those ripples still cause some change and that's the goal.

 

Also as someone else said:

 

So! A perfect storm generated a tempest in a teapot:

1. Mass breeder with 1000+ of a not-overly-popular breed

2. Breed with badly out of whack ratios.... so it produces a TON of eggs

3. Most of the normal AP hunters absent hunting for Xenos

4. Typical forum over-reaction to a very temporary condition.

 

I think the juvenile thing is the reaction. These walls are generally temporary and don't last very long, but as the statement quoted above states, everyone is filling up on either Xeno's or the goodies everyone hunting the Xeno's are ignoring and not paying much mind to the AP. Had there not been a release recently before that wall came up then I doubt it would have been as much of an issue as its being made to be.

Edited by rubyshoes

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He said that he didn't know the stats on it off the top of his head and he estimates it might not be as much as people thing but again, that's an estimate on his part not a statement made from factual data he pulled up or remembers off the top of his head. And some effect, even if its not in giant scale is still an effect. It may be a few ripples and not a tidal wave but those ripples still cause some change and that's the goal.

Well, he did say he doesn't know if the changes are statistically significant, meaning there may be an effect to ratios after a mass breeding takes place, but it's entirely possible that it's due to random chance. The ratios are not fixed and are susceptible to small changes, so yes, mass breedings affect them, but he is saying the change could be so small that it doesn't make a significant difference. This isn't a case of "Even the tiniest effect is helpful" because the "tiniest effect" might not even be due to mass breedings. We don't have the data to prove that ratios before mass breedings vs. after mass breedings are significantly different (I'm using "significantly" as a statistical term, so again, that "tiny effect" probably isn't significant), so we can't conclude that mass breedings definitely affect ratios. Correlation does not equal causation, and all that stuff.

 

Some users claim they notice a difference in ratios after mass breedings take place, some don't. I don't really care enough about ratios to make my own observations, so really, we can't know the answer without more information from TJ. He's given us a speculation regarding statistical significance and has estimated that mass breedings slightly affect ratios. Nothing concrete at all.

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That being said, don't try to turn this into a vent/rant thread. Don't attack members or groups of members whose play style is different than yours

 

The comment is there to remind members to post in a manner that does not attack others. It's fine to say you don't like mass breeding and "it makes it hard for you to find what you want" "is boring to see a wall of eggs" etc along those lines. It isn't fine  to say that other members are cowards or insult them etc just because they breed their dragons. Discuss the topic of mass breeding not the people who are doing the breeding (or what we believe is their motive i.e. they are doing it to just spoil others fun etc - we don't know why they do it unless they come here and say why). Same as a mass breeder should not attack you because you like to get CB etc from the AP.

 

 

Turning this post of mine into another thread warning:

Edited by rubyshoes

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I go with the flow. Whatever's in the AP, if I want it I'll grab it, otherwise I'll take a break. If there's nothing I'm interested in I can always breed my own dragons or hunt in the biomes.

Mass breedings don't both me - it's just another part of the game for me. smile.gif

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I think that it is frustrating to have a wall of commons blocking the AP. That being said, it only lasts for a few hours and is hardly worth all the hate that it sometimes recieves. I don't think that several players should get together to do it, but hey if you wanna breed your army go for it. As long as it only lasts for an hour or maybe a few, it's s survivable annoyance to me. Honestly I am very sad that I missed the neo wall yesterday. I adore neotropicals, and getting loaded with cute neo hatchies sounds great to me. Although I know that not everyone likes them, was very irritated, so I don't think that breeding hordes of unwanted commons is necessarily a great decision.

 

I certainly don't think that all massbreedings should get hate. Yesterday, before the neos, there was a little wall of EG Royal Blues. Who doesn't think that's awesome for a few minutes, half an hour, etc?

 

Ultimately I think that massbreeding is incredibly awesome as long as it lasts for a reasonable amount (probably an hour tops), and takes the breed into account (a wall of something cool, like Nebulas, Royals, etc, is gonna get picked up faster. Hundreds of Neotropicals? Not a lot of people like them...that's gonna be one big wall.), stuff like that.

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I've noticed that most of the time it lasts less. Most walls are nicely incuhatchable though I would personally like to see something in place that would allow us insta hatch eggs from the AP without having to use a red I need for a CB I may be looking for.

 

Someone nabbed a neo and had it in the departures and so I took it and bit it and I regret nothing. I wish bitten eggs didnt take up the egg slot like they do so I could keep biting. A lot of the time I bite and abandon since I don't really like biting lineaged eggs. If my bitten and killed eggs didnt take up the egg slot I'd of bitten as many of those neos as I could and tossed em back .3. I think a wall of vamps would be a little less hated lol.

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Honestly before the wall of Neos I never even realized people were doing this. Well, I saw the topic, but I never really noticed an AP full of eggs before. I know that it was just a one-time thing for that particular event, but it was the fact that it lasted 8 hours plus that got everyone all hot and bothered about it, I think.

 

...that said I still don't like walls of eggs, period. It doesn't matter the species... though if someone ever gives time and energy into breeding a whole bunch of 3rd gen checkers I'll kiss their feet before running off to try and claim as many as I could hold.

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I adore neotropicals, and getting loaded with cute neo hatchies sounds great to me.

You might want to keep your eye on the AP then. Quite a lot of the Neos were incuhatched and released, just to clear the wall.

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It takes some sifting through but a lot of the eggs that end up in the AP thend to be lineaged ones and some are really pretty. I personally don't care for lineages I do not make, but I know many do.

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It takes some sifting through but a lot of the eggs that end up in the AP thend to be lineaged ones and some are really pretty. I personally don't care for lineages I do not make, but I know many do.

And that's why I love hunting in the AP--well, that and my luck in the cave tends to be rather bad most of the time. I just don't like walls of eggs so I have no choice about what I'm picking through. Tbh even if they were third gen checkers I still wouldn't like it if they were all one type of egg--even if that type was, for example, Silver or Gold or even Red. I just like to have choices about what I can pick up, that's all.

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You might want to keep your eye on the AP then. Quite a lot of the Neos were incuhatched and released, just to clear the wall.

Will do!

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The walls don't really bother me. If they're decently low time, I might even snag a handful to help complete my goal of three frozen hatchies of each breed.

 

That said, I usually just ignore the walls and go do other things until they thin out.

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Some users claim they notice a difference in ratios after mass breedings take place, some don't. I don't really care enough about ratios to make my own observations, so really, we can't know the answer without more information from TJ. He's given us a speculation regarding statistical significance and has estimated that mass breedings slightly affect ratios. Nothing concrete at all.

From my own experience, one mass-breeding doesn't have much of a lasting effect, even one of the magnitude of the Neos. But having someone who is a heavy collector who mass breeds often over a long period of time, that does bring about a big change.

 

The key is "over time".

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Thread reminder for a new page:

 

That being said, don't try to turn this into a vent/rant thread. Don't attack members or groups of members whose play style is different than yours

 

The comment is there to remind members to post in a manner that does not attack others. It's fine to say you don't like mass breeding and "it makes it hard for you to find what you want" "is boring to see a wall of eggs" etc along those lines. It isn't fine  to say that other members are cowards or insult them etc just because they breed their dragons. Discuss the topic of mass breeding not the people who are doing the breeding (or what we believe is their motive i.e. they are doing it to just spoil others fun etc - we don't know why they do it unless they come here and say why). Same as a mass breeder should not attack you because you like to get CB etc from the AP.

 

 

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Also, in regards to Sock's opinion influencing people because she is a forum mod: it did not change your mind. It did not change my mind. It did not change Tawanda's mind. If she says "stop talking about it", that will influence us to stop talking about it. But expressing an opinion as a user is not going to sway anyone but possibly the most passive and herd-minded person.

 

EDIT: All right, ruby. I'm going to just drop this discussion.

Alright, I am going to bring this over here because I do disagree with this.

Mostly because I tend to see some newer players who see/read about mass breeding and it sounds like fun to them. And I won't argue that point, breeding can be fun, and it can be fun to see your bred eggs turn up in thank you threads and the like, and hey, having control of the AP for however long your wall last is certainly a rush for some people, not going to deny that.

But how many of them think about the other side of that equation, do they realize how many other people are affected by that? Do they realize that some players, grab, bite, kill, hatch, release as fast as they can in order to help clear those walls. Do the new players even realize that quite a few other players don't like mass breeds, since expressing negative opinions in that thread is actively discouraged?

I find it rather disappointing that you think only passive and herd minded people can be swayed by hearing opposing opinions.

Edited by Tawanda001

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I'm going to post this here as it is slightly more appropriate here:

I'm quite surprised. I didn't expect that a mod would encourage, actually sponsor, a behavior that disregards the playing style of other players. You like to find great olive lines, what about the players that do not?

I support the choice of users to play how they want. That is how the game is done. Mass breeding is not actually malicious. Aside from the other things you can still do to gain eggs (even bred eggs), you can always see a different AP as time moves on and eggs get picked up. You disagree with mass breeding. I understand that you do, but I am allowed to have an opinion on the game, and my opinion is that DC is play-how-you-want. Users are allowed to breed the dragons on their own scroll however they want. However many they want. Whatever lineage they want. I may not personally enjoy picking up messies, but I will also support the right of users to breed messies if that's what they want because those of us who don't like messies don't have to pick up messies. Heck, we can pick up messies and kill or bite them if that's what we want to do. And I will support that too (even though no, I am never happy to see an AP of just messies) because I support the right to do what you want with the dragons on your scroll.

 

And actually, it could be seen as a courtesy to those that are anti-massbreeding to post here. Now you know about what time the wall should begin and how big of a wall it will be. Now you can remember to just AP hunt another time or at least not be surprised when you see the wall.

 

Besides, everything is a matter of perspective. You may find it disappointing that I not only have an opinion on mass breeding but choose to express this opinion that you feel is personally hurtful, but to others, they may be relieved to find my post and see that their right to play the game how they want to play their game isn't something they've imagined (and no, nobody said users couldn't massbreed, but only seeing negative responses is easy to take personally even if it isn't meant so, as I'm sure we've all experienced). Not many posts will be seen as objective and unbiased. There will be posts that some users will react positive towards while others may react negatively towards even though it's the same exact post. My supporting mass breeding is not done to hurt you. I am sorry that I have made you feel that way, though. I will step out of contributing my personal opinions on mass breeding for this conversation. I will also leave modding this thread to ruby and _Z_ for the time being. I hope this helps you feel safe in posting your own personal opinion.

 

There is a big difference. Players can't influence. Mods do. And they are aware that they do. With the added "bonus" that they can warn or even ban the player that dared to have an opinion.

We have literally never done that, and it's sad that users feel they have to fear that. In fact, if I get involved in a controversial debate, I am less likely to warn for anything geared towards me. And if I have to step in and start moderating the topic, I will at the same time remove myself from the conversation. That way my modding can be fair. Mods hold ourselves to the same, if not higher standards, as we hold users.

As well, TJ is the only one who can actually ban players. You can also be rest assured that if any of us went around just banning users, it would for sure be looked into and dealt with. We take abuses of power seriously on the mod team. We mod each other, and TJ mods us. Complaints against our mod team are taken very seriously by all of us.

 

If you do feel a mod is abusing their power, you are free and in fact encouraged (by us same mods!) to PM TJ09. He does read and respond to these PMs. Especially with user concerns about mods, he is rather quick to look into the situation and take care of it.

 

Anyway, I do not want to contribute to getting this thread off-topic, and as I have already said I will step out of the conversation for the comfort of users, I will leave you guys to it. =)

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Alright, I am going to bring this over here because I do disagree with this.

Mostly because I tend to see some newer players who see/read about mass breeding and it sounds like fun to them. And I won't argue that point, breeding can be fun, and it can be fun to see your bred eggs turn up in thank you threads and the like, and hey, having control of the AP for however long your wall last is certainly a rush for some people, not going to deny that.

But how many of them think about the other side of that equation, do they realize how many other people are affected by that? Do they realize that some players, grab, bite, kill, hatch, release as fast as they can in order to help clear those walls. Do the new players even realize that quite a few other players don't like mass breeds, since expressing negative opinions in that thread is actively discouraged?

I find it rather disappointing that you think only passive and herd minded people can be swayed by hearing opposing opinions.

This. This. This.

On top of this, I think that "only passive and herd minded people can be swayed by hearing opposing opinions" sounds quite insulting. Many, in particular new players can be influenced... because they are new and learning. Go figure if one of the opposing opinions is expressed by a mod.

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Okay um. I haven't seen enough of the conversation to contribute fully to this, but I don't think it's a mod's opinion that sway a newbie into massbreeding. It's the idea that it'll be fun, the idea that they'll be included in something the forum does. It's the feeling that they'll be a part of the community! (or something like that).

 

The reason, I think, why newer players are easily swayed into massbreeding is because they don't have preferences on how to play the game yet. They're at the point in the game in which they "just want dragons". The "ooh this looks like a cool thing to do" or "I don't know why they're doing it but I'm doing it too" because they don't understand yet why people hate massbreeds. Or maybe they know but don't care -yet-. The most they can do is "oh I can't collect a lot of other breeds here, maybe I should return later" because they probably don't have an idea of what they want to do in the AP, other than "look for cool eggs".

 

--

 

Personally, I've found people complaining that there was an increase of "uglier"-linaged dragons in the AP due to the increase of massbreeds this year (looking at you, TMB) and personally, I don't like seeing messies or walls, either. I'm pretty sure no one's thrilled at seeing a wall of eggs they don't like for a long period of time, but to be fair, when massbreeders post, you guys have an idea when to expect it and when to avoid the AP. It's you guys and every lineage elitist having to endure a few hours, possibly once or twice a month, to help a cause that you may or may not believe in.

 

But for us who actually believe about the ratios thing, it's a few hours of inconvenience for a more lasting outcome. I'd honestly rather see a wall of eggs I don't like and pick up breeds I don't like if it helps diminish a wall that lasts for hours, than sit on the cave for days on end and see very little variance due to the sheer number of that "unliked" breed festering in the cave.

 

So when you guys ask whether the people behind massbreedings consider the other side of the equation, yes, they most likely have. They're hoarding and breeding the breeds you don't like so that you don't have to see them for more than a few hours at a time. And let's be perfectly honest. If everyone who saw that wall took one egg or two instead of going away from the AP because "it's not the breed I like", the wall would actually last shorter. The intention of a breeder in breeding those supposedly common eggs, I feel, is not them trying to purposefully annoy you haters and piss off normal AP-surfing hunters, but to help that thing you call ratios.

 

It takes a toll on your patience, but did ~you~ consider that above all else, the massbreeder has given the most effort out of this? Really, you can just step away from the AP for a few hours. You don't have to pick them up if you don't want to. You can just literally click and go to another page. It's not THAT hard.

 

I mean, it's just a few hours. *shrugs*

Imagine the people who hate the holiday breeding and have to endure seeing the same few eggs FOR A WEEK.

 

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Ah, I tend to think there's more to it than what we see on the surface.

Ratios could just as easily be affected by breeding smaller doses over longer periods, there is no real reason they must be done en masse other than that is what the breeder wants to do. If twenty or forty whateverbreed were bred to the AP every day for a month would it not have the same affect as breeding all few hundred at once?

 

Same with lowering the time, if more people bred on a regular basis there wouldn't be such a problem with time creeping up like it does. While you and others might prefer lower times over variety there those of us who prefer a variety even if it means higher times, We don't see much point in low time eggs if they aren't things we want to keep.

 

And lastly it's not so much lineage elitism or whatever, it's much more about choices. I don't like going to the AP and finding that if I want to hunt my only option is to pick up neos, or stones, or pebbles, or whatever the flavor of the month is. I'd be just as frustrated if every single egg in the AP were a 2g gold from mints. It's effectively keeping me from the aspect of game play that I like. And yes I can imagine it being like a holiday wall, only it comes without warning and it's not just restricted to three times a year.

 

---oh, and lots of us do take eggs from those walls, incubate, hatch and send to departures, release back to the AP or whatever. I don't do it because i's 'fun' but because I hope to get that wall out of the way faster so I can go back to doing the part of the game that I do enjoy.

 

When play styles come into conflict I'm not sure why it seems to be ok to basically tell some players to just suck it up and hush.

I'm sorry but I will continue to believe that mass breeding does not do anything that couldn't be done in a more controlled manner that doesn't block the AP for hours at a time. I do not see the point of it other than satisfying the whims of breeders who want to see their eggs making a wall.

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I don't know, I really can't see how any conversation for or against massbreeding won't end up being inconsiderate to the other party in some way. I don't think anyone here is telling anyone else to "suck it up and hush", but I do admit it gets kinda annoying when something goes from "I'll express my opinion once and formulate a solution so that I don't have to deal with a lot of this" to "I'll express my strong opinion every time it comes up so people knows this thing has haters".

 

While I don't have an army to create a wall of my offspring, I can imagine how impossibly inconvenient it is having to schedule hundreds of breeding every day. For a month. That's more tedious than having to spend a few hours once every two weeks or once a month.

 

And while it inconveniences you, it can also be a convenience to other people. It's a string of pros and cons, I'm sure. And I'm also sure that it's not a specific user "imposing" on you, or being "selfish" with their playstyle. If they really want to annoy the entire DC userbase, they'd coordinate with other massbreeders and deliver ya'll a dayfull/weekfull of olives, neos, mints, pebbles, or any other eyesore-common green thing and cackle in the distance.

 

 

 

(p.s. I do believe posts in the other massbreed thread counts as a pseudo warning)

(p.p.s. I don't even want to think about how someone who has a hoard of a thousand dragons of a breed would breed around hundreds of it on the AP everyday just so their dragons are bred every week.)

 

 

eta dropping from here before it gets worse

Edited by Pandalf

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Since some people keep coming back with "I'll express my strong opinion every time it comes up so people knows this thing has lovers", I would be glad to see them following their own advice.

 

Not sure why people that dislike walls (in particular walls like the ones taking more than one day to disappear, i.e. Neo) should be "inconvenienced" by mass breeders that can't be "inconvenienced" by scheduling dozens of mass breeding every day instead of hundreds in half hour or such. Guess that "tedious" for everybody else than the mass breeder should not count.

 

Actually, that dayfull massbreeding happened. Without coordination. Can't even start guessing what would happen with coordination. Just alert us and we will not log on for one week.

 

 

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