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[Obscure_Trash]

Rather than temporarily dropping eggs in biomes they don't belong in, I think it would make more sense for TJ to always release enough breeds to drop in at least 2 or 3 biomes. So a breed that drops in two or more biomes would be enough by itself, but if you have one that only drops in one biome, it wouldn't be released by itself, but with another breed that drops in a different (or more than one different) biome.

 

That would solve the problem of all the players congregating in one biome to catch the new dragons.

But even in multi-releases we have many players still unable to catch anything, which is why I'd personally like additional tweaks to releases.

 

But if you look at more recent threads of Releases with many having more difficulty in catching, you'll see that far fewer people seem to have been commenting - and the numbers showing of people even reading that thread during Releases are now typically far lower than they once were as well.

 

Many people have been getting increasingly discouraged over quite a long period of time and many are afraid to comment regarding that discouragement, even to the number of people reporting that they're simply giving up and going to bed/work/school, or on to something else less depressing/more amusing.

 

Relatively few people at DC have the time, energy and personality type to enjoy not catching new dragons and staying up all night (and multiple nights thereafter) fruitlessly trying, to possibly wait months or even years to get any New Release sprite... it's not fun and relaxing for most, just wearing and stressful, and without positive results within a reasonable period, a waste of time.

 

Having to 'rely on the kindness of strangers' or of friends is nothing like being able to catch your own, and, personally, I've hated it sometimes taking months to get new dragons, often by being gifted or trading for them, as has occurred in the past; probably most people would much rather catch their own, rather than being left out of the fun, and it's particularly discouraging for people with very old/slow computers/connections or disabilities they have to continually live with.

 

 

Trying to drag out the length of time required for people to obtain dragons they want on the theory that they'll stay and play longer can ultimately backfire in many cases.

 

If players aren't having fun, the ever-present discouragement merely builds over time.

 

Perfectly said. I love DC for many reasons, but I do think we really need to change things in order to not only attract new players but keep players interested. Whether you hunt the cave or the AP, you're pretty much always seeing the same things. Releases come along and you can't catch anything even after sitting there for hours and trying each five minute and on-the-hour drop. You don't even see uncommons or rares to try and catch them. Not a lot of incentive to find the game fun here. I mean, I've been here since '08 and have one cb gold I caught shortly after joining and no cb silvers. The majority of my silvers and golds were gifted to me - I only caught some of them in the AP myself (and none in more recent years - all of my other golds were gifted to me and probably more than half my silvers were gifted to me. I traded for one silver and the others I caught can be any younger than '09 or '10 whichever year I wasn't inactive for). I completely get that some dragons are hard to get for a reason but they shouldn't be nigh impossible especially new release eggs when they're purposely being mass dropped.

 

I mean, yes, this is a game that takes a little bit of skill mixed with a lot of patience and a dash of luck, but really. There should be a way for me to see all the eggs rotating through the cave at least and there are tons of things I can never find in the cave myself.

[diaveborn]

especially new release eggs when they're purposely being mass dropped.

*nod*

 

I wonder... I know that it wouldn't work to somehow guarantee that everyone present for the releases got the new egg/eggs, but hypothetically, I'd be curious to see what impact that type of thing would have. If it wasn't a bad one, then there's probably every reason to make catching new release eggs easier. Which kind of goes without saying in one sense, but in another... if there's any "difficult for difficulty's sake" type of stuff going on, instead of looking at what certain proposed changes would actually do to the game (I have nothing concrete to suggest that's the case and am not saying I do think that's the case) then maybe a re-analysis behind the scenes is called for.

[blah]

Rather than temporarily dropping eggs in biomes they don't belong in, I think it would make more sense for TJ to always release enough breeds to drop in at least 2 or 3 biomes. So a breed that drops in two or more biomes would be enough by itself, but if you have one that only drops in one biome, it wouldn't be released by itself, but with another breed that drops in a different (or more than one different) biome.

 

That would solve the problem of all the players congregating in one biome to catch the new dragons.

You're right, but I still really dislike more than one egg releases. I want a chance to properly get to know the dragon and really want to avoid the panic of "which is going to be rarest, how should I split my egg slots".

[PointOfOrigin]

You're right, but I still really dislike more than one egg releases. I want a chance to properly get to know the dragon and really want to avoid the panic of "which is going to be rarest, how should I split my egg slots".

When they drop in different biomes I usually go for the breed that's in slower moving biome. It served me well for now.

[Lastalda]

I agree that dropping dragons in biomes where they don't belong, just to split up the crowding, would be really confusing, and make no sense whatsoever InGame, so I'm opposing this.

 

But I'm absolutely in favor of pure mass-drops lasting at least 24 hours, better yet 48 to accommodate those who can't be online on weekends (due to no internet at home, or family precedence etc).

 

There are WAY enough challenges in DC without needing the "new release CBs only for the super-fast and lucky" challenge. If catching in a solid 24 hour massdrop is not challenge enough for you, limit yourself to CBs not caught during the massdrop (as shown by their "stolen on" date) or something. (Or go pursue CB metallics or 2nd gen Hollies/Prizes or something.) You can always limit yourself, if that gives you more fun. But those of us who don't need yet more stress in our lives have no way to make it easier for us.

 

Personally, I'm hoping TJ will change something in the new year. The Releases as they are have been happening since the beginning of this year, and it's the same miserable thing every time (and the same arguments and complains get repeated every time). Holiday Releases are joy because they massdrop and everyone can get them. All other Releases are different levels of painful.

If i don't see significant changes to the Releases happening next year, I'll probably quit DC (or just come on every once in a while to breed lineages for others).

I've been playing nonstop (except for vacations) since autumn 2008. But I have a job and I have a family, and my life is stressful enough without a game that requires me to be online at ridiculous hours to have a chance to satisfy at least my collector's urge, which demands 1-2 CB pairs per breed. Satisfying that urge without cluttering my living space has been what brought me to DC, and a good part of keeping me (along with the community and lineages). If I can't have that, it's simply not worth the time I put into this game.

[cyradis4]

Rather than temporarily dropping eggs in biomes they don't belong in, I think it would make more sense for TJ to always release enough breeds to drop in at least 2 or 3 biomes. So a breed that drops in two or more biomes would be enough by itself, but if you have one that only drops in one biome, it wouldn't be released by itself, but with another breed that drops in a different (or more than one different) biome.

 

That would solve the problem of all the players congregating in one biome to catch the new dragons.

This I think is the best, least intrusive way to fix the crowding problem.

 

As for the view that TJ used to "make" the eggs mass-drop, I seem to remember him commenting that he just added them into the mix and let the ratios take care of them.

 

Having said that, I feel that for the first 24 hours, the new eggs should mass-drop with no mixing, and that those first 24 hours should not count toward the ratios.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

How to get beaten up: luckily where I live you'd have trouble finding me...

 

Why have a mass drop at all ? Why not just - release new eggs, in slightly greater number than any other until the ratios have balanced.

 

*hides*

 

*with the whisky bottle *

[Fiona]

My comments about making sure things drop in multiple biomes for new releases wasn't intended as a total solution. The game as it stands now has several issues players are finding frustrating. The crowding of everyone catching into one biome is only one of them.

 

As for the mass drops of new releases, if I remember rightly what TJ said about how new releases are handled, one of the ways that would make new releases drop solid for longer would be to count existing dragons for slightly longer. That could have unforeseen other consequences though. Right now they count for a year. Maybe a year isn't quite long enough, and 13 months would be better, giving us more of the newer released dragons and less of the oldest ones. Because release drops would then drop solidly for longer, slower players would have more opportunity to catch the new releases themselves.

 

That doesn't address other problems though, such as biomes that stagnate. For this game to continue to grow I think all of these issues need to be addressed, but carefully. Finding balance in all of the facets of a game is a tricky business, if I understand game design at all. So far TJ's done an excellent job, as evidenced by DC's popularity and longevity.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

If TJ would just admit that the ratios are broken and GET RID OF THEM, then replace them with a true percentage system, the problem would solve itself.

[edwardelricfreak]

But ratios are fractions and fractions equal a decimal which is a percentage. o.o

 

If the ratios are broken then how would "true percentages" work? We already have a percentage system, but in the form of ratios.

[whitebaron]

But ratios are fractions and fractions equal a decimal which is a percentage. o.o

 

If the ratios are broken then how would "true percentages" work? We already have a percentage system, but in the form of ratios.

ratios are not fixed fractions. they go up and down based on how many of the breed there are. which means, one massbreed of commons might mean they get dropped a little less in the cave for a short time.

 

also means, people breeding their shinies constantly all but makes them extinct in the cave.

 

cinnamin: ratios are not broken. they just never worked. they are a flawed system for ensuring drops, i'd rather categorize the way dc drops work as social experiment. :-)

[edwardelricfreak]

Percentages would still have to be altered as more dragons are added, though, anyway.

 

And the ratios do make some sense...but they're just not that great. I guess broken is how to describe them.

[Fiona]

also means, people breeding their shinies constantly all but makes them extinct in the cave.

I believe someone had confirmation that cave drops and breeding are no longer linked, so this isn't true. Breed all the shinies you wantcan, it won't affect cave drops.

[Syphoneira]

...

But I'm absolutely in favor of pure mass-drops lasting at least 24 hours, better yet 48 to accommodate those who can't be online on weekends (due to no internet at home, or family precedence etc).

 

There are WAY enough challenges in DC without needing the "new release CBs only for the super-fast and lucky" challenge. If catching in a solid 24 hour massdrop is not challenge enough for you, limit yourself to CBs not caught during the massdrop (as shown by their "stolen on" date) or something. (Or go pursue CB metallics or 2nd gen Hollies/Prizes or something.) You can always limit yourself, if that gives you more fun. But those of us who don't need yet more stress in our lives have no way to make it easier for us.

 

Personally, I'm hoping TJ will change something in the new year. The Releases as they are have been happening since the beginning of this year, and it's the same miserable thing every time (and the same arguments and complains get repeated every time). Holiday Releases are joy because they massdrop and everyone can get them. All other Releases are different levels of painful.

If i don't see significant changes to the Releases happening next year, I'll probably quit DC (or just come on every once in a while to breed lineages for others).

I've been playing nonstop (except for vacations) since autumn 2008. But I have a job and I have a family, and my life is stressful enough without a game that requires me to be online at ridiculous hours to have a chance to satisfy at least my collector's urge, which demands 1-2 CB pairs per breed. Satisfying that urge without cluttering my living space has been what brought me to DC, and a good part of keeping me (along with the community and lineages). If I can't have that, it's simply not worth the time I put into this game.

 

 

 

 

And there lies the rub.

 

Many people love the dragons in this game, and may have invested years in their scrolls and/or the DC community, but, unfortunately, RL interferes with DC for most.

 

If something has to go, it can't be RL, and it sucks that long-term, dedicated players have to deal with a set-up that creates a situation where, to cope, they're pushed into looking at making a choice that deprives them of future dragons in a game that does, oddly, matter a lot more than a game really ought to...

[bbik]

 

What if instead of a 24 hour straight flood, instead, every 2-3 hours drops /just/ the new breed, while the other drops are all mixed. That givers the first rush people the thrill of being able to catch them right off the bat.. then after the first two hours are up, and the other breeds start mixing in, every few hours after, just do a straight drop. If you do this for the first 12 hours, it gives everyone a fair shot at actually catching a flood drop, while also allowing for the mixed drops as well.

 

Lets say: (these times are in dc time)

12-2am straight drop

205-455am mixed drop

5am straight flood, ten minutes.

510-7:55 mixed drops

8am straight flood, 10 minutes

810-10:55 mixed drops

11am straight drop, ten minutes

 

 

That gives a little bit of leeway to everyone, and could easily be extended for another 12 hours if its /needed/.

Quoting this, because I think it needs more attention, and is almost what I was going to suggest. My thought was also a compromise, but for the full 24 hours. Every 2-3 hours the cave would swap between pure new releases (normal amounts, just not mixed) and "normal" mixed drops, presumably with elevated numbers of the new breed because it's new, but not with any artificial help.

 

For example:

Midnight - 3am -- new releases only

3am - 6am -- mixed

6am - 9am -- new releases only

9am - Noon -- mixed

Noon - 2pm -- new releases only

2pm - 4pm -- mixed

4pm - 6pm -- new releases only

6pm - 8pm -- mixed

8pm - 10pm -- new releases only

10pm - Midnight -- mixed

 

That gets 12 solid hours of releases, it doesn't favor or penalize any time zones, and it allows people to get other breeds if they don't want releases. It could be an every-other-hour swap, too, if that makes it easier for people to catch the window they want, or 6 hour chunks, or whatever. Perhaps it could even be mixed with the "don't count the first day towards the ratios" idea, yet not push things as out of whack as a 24 hour flood would.

 

And as a side benefit, any sort of alternating schedule would probably help get/keep the other biomes moving, too, because at least some people will hang around and continue hunting.

[edwardelricfreak]

I like the idea of it lasting all day and alternating, but I think it should only be every 2 OR 3 hours. Pick one, don't use both. Because actually having the longer releases and waits at one part of the day DOES benefit people in certain timezones more.

 

So

 

midnight-2 AM - new release

2-4 AM - mixed

4-6 AM - new

6-8 AM - mixed

8-10 AM - new

10 AM-noon PM -mixed

noon-2 PM -new

2-4 PM - mixed

4-6 PM - new

6-8 PM -mixed

8-10 PM - new

10 PM-midnight AM - mixed

 

That still gives 12 hours of solid drop and 12 hours of mixed but it stays consistent.

[Syphoneira]

An issue with an intermittent/alternating one or two hour Flood approach of this type is that many people have limited time available, and if they can only pop in to hunt when on a break, or can manage only a half-hour or hour here and there to hunt/use a computer, they've got a high potential to miss any chance they might have of catching in a Flood, which is the best and sometimes only chance a lot of people have of catching in a New Release.

 

The point of this is supposed to be so that everyone in every time zone has a fair chance of catching Floods, and penalizing those perhaps working two jobs, attending classes and working or having other imperative claims on their time seems to merely concentrate the disparity onto those already most suffering it.

 

A LOT of people don't have weekends off...

 

 

[whitebaron]

I believe someone had confirmation that cave drops and breeding are no longer linked, so this isn't true. Breed all the shinies you wantcan, it won't affect cave drops.

There never has been proof or confirmation by tj, just theories on how coppers breed well even though they are almost extinct in the cave. If it is true,though, forget about ever making nice common x rare lines with new breeds. I-ve been breeding most of my silvers weekly with crimsons, ever since they came out. Thus far, one silver and possiby 200+ fails.

[Syphoneira]

Granted, my memory sucks, but I thought I recalled something about TJ saying that he had, indeed, disassociated Cave egg Dropping and breeding production ratios from each other...

 

Perhaps, if we're lucky, he'll notice this and verify whether or not this is the case.

 

 

Edit: metallic breeding often sucks, and for some time now, it seems to have returned to total suckage, although I must say that it does seem to me that my dragons breed rather more reluctantly than a lot of other people's do, lol.

 

I've been trying to produce a Silver for someone for some time, with no luck at all, (lots of no interest, no egg, though) and that's Silvers with Shadow Walkers, to produce a mate for a dragon she has, so I have no 2nd gen fails to confuse the issue.

 

The odds are going to be MUCH higher of producing a more common dragon than a rare, and therefore the chances of a metallic egg logically won't increase with regard what it's bred with.

 

(I'm just hoping that I can get the person I'm breeding for a suitable mate prior to next Halloween, lol, and that the pair, when finally matched, won't Refuse. )

 

 

Re-edit: wish the coffee would kick in, meant to mention that I'd been speculating about whether Coppers were intended to be rare as CBs but more common as breds, since TJ does sometimes introduce dragons with different characteristics, and I really do think that I recall TJ specifically mentioning quite some time back that the breeding and Dropping ratios had been separated...

Edited December 5, 2013 by Syphoneira

[Obscure_Trash]

Granted, my memory sucks, but I thought I recalled something about TJ saying that he had, indeed, disassociated Cave egg Dropping and breeding production ratios from each other...

 

Perhaps, if we're lucky, he'll notice this and verify whether or not this is the case.

I've seen quite few people saying this, so I went searching. Perhaps he said something on IRC but the only thing I turned up was this: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry7088278

 

That was the case of breeding success not being tied to the population manager, but breeding output was. In that, the site didn't stop you from breeding an overpopulated breed, but those eggs were counted towards the overall population, which continued to stay overpopulated (even though the site was making fewer CB's to try to keep things in balance).

 

So it wasn't that they were separate, it's that breeding success was unaffected by population.

[Syphoneira]

I've seen quite few people saying this, so I went searching. Perhaps he said something on IRC but the only thing I turned up was this: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry7088278

 

Thanks, but that's actually not what I think I remember.

 

I seem to recall TJ stepping into a conversation on a thread and saying that something wasn't so, because breeding and Drop rates were now separated and one no longer affected the other - it was quite a while ago...

 

 

Edit: I belatedly followed the link and the quote you provided is relatively recent, from March of this year; I must have been thinking of something he said back when they were.

 

Lol, haven't been on much the past year or so, so thanks for the update!

Edited December 5, 2013 by Syphoneira

[pinkgothic]

Granted, my memory sucks, but I thought I recalled something about TJ saying that he had, indeed, disassociated Cave egg Dropping and breeding production ratios from each other...

 

I'm fairly sure he didn't. It's just been a theory floating around ever since blacks, stripes and metals became available in the cave again... supplemented by less obvious slants like moonstones being more common in the cave than sunstones for a solid while very near that very same rare/metal flood in February - suggesting that caveborn moonstones were trying to play catch up after having been bred more than sunstones (because moonstones have definitely been more popular in lineages than sunstones).

 

But I wouldn't know if that observation even still holds true, though, or how to check, now that the February flood is over and things have presumably balanced themselves back out.

 

It's only ever been a theory, mind.

Edited December 5, 2013 by pinkgothic

[cyradis4]

Thanks, but that's actually not what I think I remember.

 

I seem to recall TJ stepping into a conversation on a thread and saying that something wasn't so, because breeding and Drop rates were now separated and one no longer affected the other - it was quite a while ago...

 

 

Edit: I belatedly followed the link and the quote you provided is relatively recent, from March of this year; I must have been thinking of something he said back when they were.

 

Lol, haven't been on much the past year or so, so thanks for the update!

This rumor has, indeed, been around a long time but the only post I've ever seen has been the one SockPuppet Strangler linked to.

 

So.... No proof, that I know of.

 

:/

 

Maybe someone could get TJ's input into it?

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Syphoneira]

This rumor has, indeed, been around a long time but the only post I've ever seen has been the one SockPuppet Strangler linked to.

 

So.... No proof, that I know of.

 

:/

 

Maybe someone could get TJ's input into it?

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

 

The link Socky provided was to a post TJ made in March of this year, which was far more recent (years, I think) than whenever it was that I seem to recall TJ saying that they weren't linked.

 

So, they evidently are now, although (with the usual caveat of my sucky memory) I'm really pretty sure that, at some time in the past, he'd said they weren't, at that time.

 

 

But, for the past year or so, (between my mother's increasing issues and passing, and my thereafter making several moves, as well as having some health and computer issues,) I haven't been on DC all the time as I was previously, (as caregiver, when spending much time sitting in the computer room across the hall from my mother's bedroom, to be in easy earshot when she called - DC and some of the people here helped me get through a lot of stuff) perusing practically every thread in the sections here which I used to check into regularly, and I've obviously missed a lot, lol.

 

 

Actually, over the years I've encountered a number of people who have felt that DC, and the DC community, helped them get through some really bad times, this forming part of the reason I, and, perhaps others, feel so strongly about certain things regarding the game...

 

And why a lot of us feel that many players likely really don't need any additional stressors here...

 

 

[bbik]

I like the idea of it lasting all day and alternating, but I think it should only be every 2 OR 3 hours. Pick one, don't use both.

Oh, certainly, it should only do one of those. It was just an example of how either one would work.

 

An issue with an intermittent/alternating one or two hour Flood approach of this type is that many people have limited time available, and if they can only pop in to hunt when on a break, or can manage only a half-hour or hour here and there to hunt/use a computer, they've got a high potential to miss any chance they might have of catching in a Flood, which is the best and sometimes only chance a lot of people have of catching in a New Release.

It will never be perfect for everyone. Yes, this would still wind up with some people who can't catch the right alternation. But would it decrease how many of them there are? Or would it just swap from one group who can't be on to catch to another same-sized group? I would expect a dramatic decrease, which would make it worth doing. And if there are fewer people who are frustrated about not getting them, there will be fewer people cramming as many as they can get, every chance they get, as well, which would reduce the pressure on those who missed the initial release. They may still have trouble catching the new breed(s), but it shouldn't be as bad as it is now. Nor should the trade value be as exorbitant if they need to get some that way.