Differentiate between Draks and Drakes

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The problem is, Drake *isn't* standard for 4 legged, wingless dragon. In fact, there are numerous examples where that's not the case. The most common use of drake actually seems to be young dragon.

 

Also, Dovealove is long gone from the site, and does not want to be contacted by anyone from the site regarding anything about the site.

 

Cheers!

C4.

While drake isn't standard for anything, I know it sure as heck ain't standard for "simple intelligence strut-winged antler-dragons." Yet that definition is still being allowed to commander the term. Which is what I'm objecting to. <___<

 

"Wyrm" is a fairly generic term that, while usually used for limbless dragons, can be used as a generic dragon or long wingless western. Would it be fair to DC if I made a white spotted, furred, herbivorous wyrm as DC's first "wyrm" and declared all others had to submit to that definition on DC or pick another name for their dragons?

 

I don't think it would be--which is the grounds by which I dislike the current usage of "drake."

Edited September 16, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[CNR4806]

Is it really necessary to stress again that there are no "definitive" characteristics to the mythological creature (ie. not a duck) called a drake?

 

In many cases it's just another word for "dragon" (which is itself a vague term), and many different works have adopted the term alongside with "dragon" with vastly different meanings, or simply as synonyms like what most dictionaries would tell you.

 

Take a few examples here. In Magic: The Gathering, drakes are basically wyverns. Dragon Age: Origins defined drakes as lesser draconic beings that effectively serve as servants to true dragons. D&D similarly defines them as lesser dragons, but not in the same way the DA:O does. In World of Warcraft drakes are young dragons. In LoTR they're just another word for dragons.

 

To just call it bluntly, nothing should stop Dragon Cave from having its own twist on the meaning of the word drake, as the word, in the context of mythological creatures, simply doesn't have any "standards" to follow other than the requirement of being a draconic creature.

 

The only thing that I find debatable is whether the current definition of drakes in DC is too strict.

Edited September 16, 2014 by CNR4806

[Naruhina_94]

ADP and Aniusia483 I totally agree with you that DC drakes should have their own name and don't "steal" it from the standard meaneing of Drake, BUT if we cannot change a name we could still create another one. We have to solve this little problem, and if it seems too hard to change a name probably if will be more easy to find a totally new one for a dragon sub-type who is nameless.

If we do it we would have a way to immediatly differentiate these 2 kinds of dragons without using example or explaining what we're meaning with 4 limbs, but not winged dragon.

 

I'm sorry! My love for Skyrim brought me to think to Akaviri. I honestly didn't remembered that was already taken Anyway there are many fantasy names who could be used, that's not the problem.

The FIRST site that I found if I search on Google "What's a Drake" gives me this answer:

 

One of the seldom heard of species, drakes are much like western dragons. Unlike them, however, these dragons have no wings, only four legs. They vary from type to type, but they usually fire-bearing creatures.

 

The first picture for Drake Fantasy is actually a wingless dragon.

 

Yes, this would really help on the dragon requests.

I would also like that in order to submit a new dragon request you must also indicate which type of dragon are you planning to do in you OP.

I think this would help a lot to focus the dragon itself. It would help to understand if it follows DC standard breeds or it's a new one. Let's see the Common Dragoons (there is an entire pool just to choose WHAT is that breed). Let's see the Savannah (It wasn't clear if it should have been an Eastern or an Akaviri until someone asked it).

Edited September 16, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Is it really necessary to stress again that there are no "definitive" characteristics to the mythological creature (ie. not a duck) called a drake?

 

In many cases it's just another word for "dragon" (which is itself a vague term), and many different works have adopted the term alongside with "dragon" with vastly different meanings, or simply as synonyms like what most dictionaries would tell you.

 

Take a few examples here. In Magic: The Gathering, drakes are basically wyverns. Dragon Age: Origins defined drakes as lesser draconic beings that effectively serve as servants to true dragons. D&D similarly defines them as lesser dragons, but not in the same way the DA:O does. In World of Warcraft drakes are young dragons. In LoTR they're just another word for dragons.

 

To just call it bluntly, nothing should stop Dragon Cave from having its own twist on the meaning of the word drake, as the word, in the context of mythological creatures, simply doesn't have any "standards" to follow other than the requirement of being a draconic creature.

 

The only thing that I find debatable is whether the current definition of drakes in DC is too strict.

Again, though--drakes are the ONLY thing on DC that is "DC defined." If it was a game where every type of dragon was carefully spelled out and different from the norm, than so be it. But it's not. A wyvern on DC is the same as wyverns in most places, as are the lindwyrms, amphipteres, easterns, and so on and so forth. Accordingly having a single highly user-defined breed controlling the catch-all word of drake seems extremely out of place. Even if drake doesn't have a solid definition, I would much rather it be open for use than sequestered to one highly personalized definition made by one player.

 

Accordingly I would prefer it go back to being a generic word, with some new word (still think Dove's Drakes is fine) taking the current one. If people want to use drake to mean a few different things, that's fine. What sucks is having people come in when you say "here's a Volcano Drake" and go WHERE ARE ANTLERS STRUT WINGS DOG BRAIN???

 

The two other posts I made higher on this page explain this from a few other angles as well.

 

@Naruhina: I don't think we need a special term for them, though; if people can't understand "wingless western" then, uh, they are probably too clueless to understand a special new name either. Especially if the definition of that name is just "wingless western" anyway! D

Edited September 16, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Naruhina_94]

It's just that... it's strange they don't have a proper name in this game and they're just classified as "Dragons".

It's like to say that those white dogs with black points, you know, those who were 101, are NOT Dalmatians. They have no name, they're just "dogs".

[cyradis4]

While drake isn't standard for anything, I know it sure as heck ain't standard for "simple intelligence strut-winged antler-dragons." Yet that definition is still being allowed to commander the term. Which is what I'm objecting to. <___<

 

"Wyrm" is a fairly generic term that, while usually used for limbless dragons, can be used as a generic dragon or long wingless western. Would it be fair to DC if I made a white spotted, furred, herbivorous wyrm as DC's first "wyrm" and declared all others had to submit to that definition on DC or pick another name for their dragons?

 

I don't think it would be--which is the grounds by which I dislike the current usage of "drake."

I happen to dislike the current usage of drake, too. I'd prefer if it was "drak", myself.

 

And despite the non-standardness, I'd prefer Drake as a 4 legged, wingless Western. But.... Yea. Still no standardness.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Whitefire]

I always just call traditional drakes 'wingless westerns' since thats.... exactly what they are.

 

Of course, i learned DC dragon terminology before reading any sort of dragon book or anything, so i was quite confused when they said drakes were 'stocky unintelligent aggressive dragons with four legs and no wings but not longbodied like easterns' |D

 

Some form of differentiation would be nice

[Guillotine]

Pretty sure I've mentioned this in the past, but I literally never heard of the wingless and four-legged definition for drake before this discussion. Drake is so widely defined (lesser dragon/male dragon/baby dragon/dragon hybrid/wingless quadruped dragon/etc.) that pretty much any site that uses it must by definition have it be [site name]-defined.

 

The only other term used by DC that matches that variability as far as I remember is wyrm, and even then it's just the difference between generic term for dragon and a snake-like dragon.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Guillotine

[Rosedamai]

Pretty sure I've mentioned this in the past, but I literally never heard of the wingless and four-legged definition for drake before this discussion. Drake is so widely defined (lesser dragon/male dragon/baby dragon/dragon hybrid/wingless quadruped dragon/etc.) that pretty much any site that uses it must by definition have it be [site name]-defined.

 

The only other term used by DC that matches that variability as far as I remember is wyrm, and even then it's just the difference between generic term for dragon and a snake-like dragon.

Basically this. Its definition is so, so varied.

[edwardelricfreak]

Definitions I knew:

 

-young dragon

-another word for dragon

-a specific western/European dragon that lacked wings.

 

Those are the ones I've known, even before DC. I don't recall if I've heard them as lesser dragons but probably.

 

I have to agree with ADP and others about having the one, officially defined type and then no others officially defined. Maybe the encyclopedia might say something, but so far I don't think we have ANY official descriptions of the dragon types other than drakes. This causes confusion, especially when others know a certain type/word to be something else, and also when someone checks the information on the Wiki, because it's as close to "official" descriptions as we have so far.

 

I'm totally down with officially labeling the "drakes" as wingless westerns somewhere. It could at least add some to the lore or whatever. :U

[Nightwatcher]

Lol, I've read a lot of books where drake and dragon are used interchangeably to mean the same dragon - and was Smaug referred to as a drake/firedrake by some in The Hobbit, or is my memory failing me yet again? (Been a long time since I've read the book.)

 

All of these different definitions of 'drake' floating around...

 

My OchreDrakes, btw, have a remarkably high intelligence level, although I can't speak for the others in the Cave.

Yes Smaug is a fire drake of the north. When Tolkien wrote the book, the hobbit, the term drake and dragon were interchangeable. Smaug's first drawing was four legged and winged and based on the komodo dragon.

 

When I asked something on tumblr about what would female and male dragons would be called I got the females are called dragons and males and young are called drakes and that is from dragon age.

 

I just I'd add that, but I do think the rules of the drakes on dragon cave could do some editing.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Nightwatcher

[VixenDra]

omg, so that's how I want to name my future zombies once we get a Drak sprite introduced!

I hated how "Drake" (4legs0wings) vs "DC Drake"(dumb western with antlers) looked in dragon names, now I know how I will differentiate them using just single words:)

 

 

I seriously don't understand why (exept for a mere whim actually) the term Drak wasn't implemented instead of the confusing Drake - which either means any dragon or a wingless western dragon (the 2nd is what I've been seing looong before I found DC and got it as an aready established term; and mind you I don't know any game that would introduce the term yet I still knew it as a wingless western).

It would save everyone loads of confusion, both within the game&forums and whenever you're trying to talk with some dragon enthusiasts who don't know DC and who'd more frequently understand drake to be a wingless western (probably that's the undrestanding most widely spread among dragon artists and character creators e.g. on DA) OR some particular specimens of dragons in general (for those who're more into history and folclore).

 

It's not without reason that so many users defend drakes to mean wingless westerns! It must be somehow established somewhere... and definitely not in just one game universe since I never checked nor played any like this and yet I still knew drakes as wingless westerns.

 

What I found is that people who didn't know drakes as wingless dragons (but not of the eastern type) don't really know other subtype names in general or know just a few - they simply aren't into names like this and everything is just 'dragon' to them. (well I, for instance, did look for these names for draconic creatures based on limbs count -more than once!- and that's how I stumbled upon drake=wingless quadrupedal dragon)

E.g. (very strong example, for this term is probably best established -wyvern) in film industry they can't see that when they are supposed to make a dragon(western by default; or eastern if there's some Eastern culture in the bg) they stupbornly go wyvern and never call it a wyvern... (btw I believe they go wyvern just becayse it's easy and lazy as opposed to constructing and animating a believable flying hexapod); they ruin Smaug's image from the books by making him a wyvern(at first he was a true western dragon in the 1st movie! you could see his front paws, only later they altered the scene into wings) instead and then even having him say 'I'm the real/true dragon!' in an interview, pffft... showing off their ignorance. You never hear the word wyvern in HTTYD though majority of current dragon breeds there are wyverns... they simply most probably don't know these terms at all and never use them... if they did, we'd have all these names well established in the society, at least among those who ever watched some dragon moviesm and assumed all, or vast majority, of these movies used the same termonology. And, first of all, we'd never have the drake dispute here in DC because the word drake would be most likely much better established for wingless westerns:P - more like a gryphon/griffin and hippogriff are.

 

'Wingless' doesn't work well as a creature's name dragon, lindwurm, wyvern, hydra, drake, (and drak) do! Even Western and Eastern(which can be called Loong/Lung too) seem to work better (to me) than regular common adjectives like 'wingless' 'limbless' and the sort.

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

 

 

Drak even would be pronounced differently: vowel /ae/ instead of dyphtong /eI/, right? (that's a guess form a non-native English student though) if that's true then it's a perfect word to use to distinguish from drake, and not only in writing!

I saw complaints it looks like a typo and it's just 1 letter altered(removed). Um but isn't the English language full of words that differ by just 1 letter, sound or the like yet the meaning is different (but can still stay within the same category)??? e.g. Sheep vs ship differ only by /i:/ vs /I/ which, e.g. for my fellow students was always a problem to pronounce the difference?(we have just one /i/ vowel, which doesn't help at all ) Butt vs but? but vs bat? bed vs bet? as vs us&(the other word that differs by just 1 letter but I think I can't use it here despite it can also mean 'donkey')? drake vs drak is exactly like this, so I don't understand why natives of English would have any problem here .

 

 

 

 

Drak for president!

Edited October 19, 2016 by VixenDra

[Fuzzbucket]

When Tolkien wrote the book, the hobbit, the term drake and dragon were interchangeable.

They still are. Except here and a couple of other dragon internet sites.

Edited October 19, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

They may be, but it seems to be common in humans that they don't like to have two words with the exact same meaning, so they make up something to distinguish between both terms. Dragon and drake are a very good example for that mechanism taking place.

[Pokemonfan13]

But that's the thing. Nobody who does have it fixed in their head that drake is a wingless western dragon can point out where it's from that makes it more official than any other use. And plenty of other sources use drake to mean anything from a male dragon to a baby dragon, so we could just as easily have had "drake" instead of "hatchling".

 

I think what we need to do is come up with a single word to use for "wingless western" dragons and make it official. I'm not very good at coming up with words, tho. Another solution would be if TJ would be willing to make drakes back into the original drak and allow drake to be used for wingless westerns. But I suspect he had a reason for changing the name in the first place, and that reason would probably preclude changing it back.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

One alternative I saw would be to call them "Dovedrakes" after the creator. Could go hand in hand with a change to the default drake text, too, which was also suggested (i.e., replace the usual bit about dragons having long lifespans and using telepathy with something more drake specific, such as mentioning the lower intelligence and size and--if a name change is done--how the original discoverer of the type was a human artist known as Dove)

 

Also, to explain again why I dislike the term:

 

While drake isn't standard for anything, I know it sure as heck ain't standard for "simple intelligence strut-winged antler-dragons." Yet that definition is still being allowed to commander the term. Which is what I'm objecting to. <___<

 

"Wyrm" is a fairly generic term that, while usually used for limbless dragons, can be used as a generic dragon or long wingless western. Would it be fair to DC if I made a white spotted, furred, herbivorous wyrm as DC's first "wyrm" and declared all others had to submit to that definition on DC or pick another name for their dragons?

 

I don't think it would be--which is the grounds by which I dislike the current usage of "drake."

 

Again, while drake might not be the most traditional term, it is also the ONLY term on DC that you couldn't go up to your average fantasy nerd and have them be able to take a guess at. Most lovers of fantasy can usually predict what you mean if you say a wyvern, eastern, or leviathan dragon. Drake is the only term on DC that's used in an extremely site specific way and that's why it feels so out of place to me.

 

I get that it's just a matter of linguistics and it's not a big deal either way, it just FEELS weird.

Edited October 19, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

But that's the thing.  Nobody who does have it fixed in their head that drake is a wingless western dragon can point out where it's from that makes it more official than any other use.  And plenty of other sources use drake to mean anything from a male dragon to a baby dragon, so we could just as easily have had "drake" instead of "hatchling".

 

I think what we need to do is come up with a single word to use for "wingless western" dragons and make it official.  I'm not very good at coming up with words, tho.  Another solution would be if TJ would be willing to make drakes back into the original drak and allow drake to be used for wingless westerns.  But I suspect he had a reason for changing the name in the first place, and that reason would probably preclude changing it back.

Thank you pokemonfan. My position exactly.

 

From another website:

 

The answer to your question as given is that there is no standard definition for the fantasy genre. Various mythologies have their own definitions, and different fantasy worlds have their own definitions and distinctions. If there's a particular canon you are interested in, that might make for a question with a more satisfying answer.

and also:

Drakes are sometimes used to refer to immature dragons, but are more frequently associated with much smaller reptilian animals that are mostly just 'scaled down' versions of regular dragons. ...

 

It appears that for Tolkien drake, wyrm, worm, serpent, and dragon were synonyms.... sometimes they are all just words for the same thing...  in Middle Earth there is no difference.

[Drakes are a little tough. Often, they are similar to the standard "dragon" with the difference that they typically do not have wings. These are often also referred to as Eastern Dragons or Chinese Dragon. In other instances, Drake is synonymous with Wyrm.

 

How about just call them Drakon ? (the Greek word from which dragon came, but with that k, it works rather well....)

 

Oh - crossposted - Dovedrakes is GOOD

Edited October 19, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[cyradis4]

Again, while drake might not be the most traditional term, it is also the ONLY term on DC that you couldn't go up to your average fantasy nerd and have them be able to take a guess at. Most lovers of fantasy can usually predict what you mean if you say a wyvern, eastern, or leviathan dragon. Drake is the only term on DC that's used in an extremely site specific way and that's why it feels so out of place to me.

 

I get that it's just a matter of linguistics and it's not a big deal either way, it just FEELS weird.

Basically this. I feel no deep seated need to call wingless Westerns "Drakes". We could just as well call them "lizards" or "crocs". But I dislike how the DC Drakes are called "drakes", and I think this is probably the biggest reason I don't much like it.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Starbit]

DC Drakes have always, always bothered me, because to me that just isn't what a drake is. It is similar with Blusangs - I always felt lindwyrms were wingless. However, I am absolutely free to go and make a wingless Lindwyrm in DR, and nobody will tell me off for calling it a Lindwyrm.

 

What isn't fair is that nobody can call anything but a DC Drake a Drake. I cannot go and make a small dumb dragon and call it a drake. I cannot go and make a quadrupedal wingless dragon and call it a drake. Literally nearly every other 'breed' on this site is open to way more wiggle room - we don't force the Nebulas to be called Wyverns, we don't stipulate that all Pygmies must have wings, just that they must be small. So why are we forced to have the term drake taken and made to jump through all these hoops? Because a single user, who has long since left the site and wants nothing to do with the site, made her drakes in that way. I don't even understand why drakes were made to be a special group, there's no reason Ochredrakes couldn't be called Ochredrakes and just breed with other dragons normally, but that is a decision long since passed and not going to be changed, and that's fine.

 

We should either change the name of the DC Drakes, which (while I'd prefer) would cause drama and as I've read through the creator of the Glories has already expressed a dislike for - or loosen the drake definition. And loosening the definition doesn't mean we have to reclass any other dragon. Once upon a time, Mints were the smallest dragons on DC. Then we invented Pygmies, but we didn't make Mints pygmies. If we just make DC Drakes be smaller, dumb dragons for example, we don't have to make any other dragon who fits those criteria present or future be a DC Drake.

 

But right now it's really stupid to have a narrow, constrictive definition, when this thread has showed drake traditionally has no strict definition.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Starbit-Plushie

[Fiona]

Another solution would be if TJ would be willing to make drakes back into the original drak and allow drake to be used for wingless westerns. But I suspect he had a reason for changing the name in the first place, and that reason would probably preclude changing it back.

Actually, I believe (but don't quote me because whatever it was he said and Dove said was a long time ago) that the original was drake. Dove or someone tried shortening it to drak when some people protested using a common draconic term in such a specific way but this was after the release. So all TJ ever had, if I understood correctly, was drake.

 

So there's no "going back" to something that wasn't ever in.

 

Dovedrakes always sounds awkward to me. Draks is contrived - as if trying to pacify the protesters. I understand the reason people protest against drake as used on the site now.

 

Drakon sounds reasonable. It's not something that people associate with something else.

[TJ09]

I'm just going to close this thread, because I think I've covered my stance extensively enough in various places across the forum, and nothing has really changed regarding that stance.

 

The tl;dr is:

• Drakes as they exist on Dragon Cave were always intended to be called "drakes." They were never "draks." Dove suggested changing them to "draks" when people complained, but it never happened (and likely never will).
• I have still yet to find any conclusive definition of what a "drake" is outside of DC. I've seen explanations of all sorts: wingless dragon, young dragon, male dragon, equivalent to dragon, etc. Given that there is no agreement on the topic, I see no merit behind the claim that DC's usage of drake is inconsistent with "what a drake is."