Notice Regarding Trading Harassment

[manticore]

Your post reeks of highschooler who wants to seem above the drama but is only instigating more drama.

[DarkEternity]

Ok, moving ON from you-know-what, it is easier just to see gifts as gifts or my mind may explode from the fact that x is an attempt by a person to ingratiate themselves. The most simple solution is not to accept gifts because you might be framed as a scammer or something or the other. This happens in real life to. X gifts to Y, a while later X claims that Y owes them and later a lawsuit eventuates. 'Tis sad to hear of the harassment, though I have always thought of DC as a generally friendly environment (controversial topics in suggestions excluded )

Edited February 21, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Banuk]

Your post reeks of highschooler who wants to seem above the drama but is only instigating more drama.

Uh-huh.

 

Oh, right, I forgot I'm not allowed an opinion around here. Shame on me.

[manticore]

You're allowed an opinion, I'm allowed to point out your hypocrisy.

[Banuk]

You're allowed an opinion, I'm allowed to point out your hypocrisy.

How exactly is that hypocrisy?

 

I am NOT aiming to "instigate more drama" I am simply giving my opinion, as everyone else in this thread has done.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Derranged

[Evilminion]

I don't buy it.  I really don't.  But that's just me.  If I won a prize dragon here, and suddenly, out of nowhere, everybody and their brother decided to get really nice and started sending me golds, silvers, I'm already wondering what your motive is. 

 

<...snip...>

 

Ah, but I'm a cynical old dog, so....   

Okay, this is why I have to roll my eyes at generalizations.

 

<- this is me, rolling my eyes

 

Many of you posting to this thread know me; some of you have known me for years. Those who do will also know that my biggest source of fun in this game, now that my scroll goals are long since fulfilled, is breeding and catching for gifts. There is nothing I love more in DC than making somebody squeal so loudly with egg-related happiness that I can almost hear them in real life. Heck, I challenge anyone here to point to a single jackass act I've taken, on these forums, in IRC, or in a trading situation, in the past five years of playing Dragon Cave. It's just not my style.

 

So WITH THAT SAID, I will mention that I sent a gift to one of the shimmerscale winners (I forget which one, but that's not the important part), immediately after he or she posted to say they'd won. Why? Because they had a specific wishlist egg mentioned in their signature, I happened to have recently caught one of those eggs (again, I can't remember what species, but maybe a trio...? Getting old sucks, boys and girls ), AND I knew that after having publicly announced their good fortune, they were about to be inundated by a zillion (at best hopeful, at worst demanding) PMs from every corner of the cave.

 

So I sent a link to the egg and a message to the effect that in a few hours' time, they'd probably be wondering if everybody in the game was a grabby doofus, and I wanted them to remember that 99% of us really are not. It honestly is a great community, better than so many of the others I've encountered online; it's just that sometimes you only hear from or about the unhappy people, since they're the ones with a reason to post. Anyway, we had a good laugh, chatted a bit, and went on with our respective days.

 

So by your analysis, you cynical old dog, I wasn't just having my usual gift-flinging fun, but angling for a shiny...?

 

Yes, I know I'm a hopeless optimist. And yes, there may well have been people sending unsolicited gifts in the hopes of demanding something later. But I still believe that I can't have been the only person who sent a gift simply because they felt like one was called for in the situation, and would be fun to give. Generalizations don't work, because people are people, in all our wild and goofy ways, and we can do the same thing for a zillion different reasons.

 

I prefer to think those reasons are mostly positive ones.

 

(EDITING to clarify that I adore MedievalMystic, and chose to quote from her post only because I love the phrase "cynical old dog", heehee!)

Edited February 21, 2013 by Evilminion

[Starscream]

I may not be a mod on the forums, but I do ask you to keep it civil.

[rubyshoes]

I may not be a mod on the forums, but I do ask you to keep it civil.

Agree and thank you, Starcream.

[skauble]

When it comes to hashing out each specific situation, unless the matter is something truly egregious, I'm assuming that the offender would receive a warning and an explanation from a moderator, so we wouldn't need a rundown of every possible thing that could pop up. And, warning phobia aside, I think that's a good thing for any player who's truly acting in good faith. Because, speaking for just myself here, if I'm doing something that really makes someone uncomfortable and I don't realize it, I'd like that info even if it comes from a moderator as opposed to the person I was communicating with.

 

I think that there are so many different situations and everyone has their own circumstances to draw on that it's easy to fall into the minutiae of is doing X okay if Y has happened, and the like. But mostly the matter seems pretty straightforward, overall -

 

Moderators are moderating, so send any potential problems to them because they a. want to help and b. are in a position of authority here to do so.

 

So if we're communicating with other players in a way that we wouldn't mind the mods seeing, then I'd think that we're probably okay, and if we're not, then someone may report the matter and we'd be informed what the issues is and we'd know how to adjust out interactions accordingly.

 

Also, I don't know if this is in any of the info given to new players, but maybe letting them know that their profile is a good place to list info about preferences, conditions for trading, etc. and that it's also a good place to check for other players' preferences would be helpful. Because I think that, a lot of times, communication problems are more avoidable the more info people have. Will that stop the hard core harassers? Probably not. But it could cut down on the more unintentional issues that do have a cumulative effect on people, especially those who have various dragons that are highly desired.

[tjekan]

I know it must be really aggravating for people, especially prize winners, to get a ton of unwanted PMs begging for things, but it might be worth mentioning that taking a hostile tone in trade posts only makes matters worse. After the original tinsels came out, there was a really pretty unpleasant period of people posting "NO PMs I BITE" and "NO OFFERS BESIDES NEGLECTEDS OR I'LL BLACKLIST YOU FOREVER" and "stop sending me retarded offers I only want RARES" (that one is pretty much verbatim from two years ago) and so on in the trade threads, and I'm starting to see hints of that attitude coming back again now. I'm pretty sure that the people who send harassing emails are exactly the same subset of people who are going to ignore even the most harshly worded warning to keep away anyway, and meanwhile posts like those quite frankly give off the impression that it's OK to be blunt and aggressive and a little bit mean as long as it gets you what you want in trade offers. Which is kind of just feeding the problem of people being pushy and demanding in PMs, isn't it?

 

I'd MUCH rather see people reporting harassing PM'ers and getting them warned or banned by mods than see them start to get frustrated and vent their spleen at the community at large instead. Perhaps this time the new board emphasis on preventing PM abuse will relieve some of that pressure and keep the trade boards a little mellower. But at the times when there's not any obvious harassment going on... a little patience with each other would go a long way. IMHO.

[Dragonhide]

I don't buy it. I really don't. But that's just me. If I won a prize dragon here, and suddenly, out of nowhere, everybody and their brother decided to get really nice and started sending me golds, silvers, I'm already wondering what your motive is.

 

If I won the multi million dollar lottery, and all of a sudden neighbors...and long lost aunts, brothers, uncles, cousins, etc... that didn't say two words to me before, and never felt any need to be all that nice, suddenly came out of the woodwork, smiling and bearing gifts, as far as I'm concerned, I've got your number, even if that's not your intent because to me , from my perspective, you've got 'ulterior motive' written all over you.

 

If I accept those gifts, there's an unspoken 'understanding', even if it's only by the long lost cousin, that something 'nice' in return is expected...sooner or later. It's not said. It's implied by accepting the gift, at least, to me it is. It's universal that if someone does something nice for you, well, you return the favor if you can, right? If someone PM'd me without a gift and said, hey, great job, congrats, and that was that, then maybe they'd be credible in my eyes and maybe I'd get the idea they really meant it. But start sending gifts? Forget it.

 

If I got 1000 gifts from all those beautiful, selfless, kind, generous players that didn't know I existed before I won the grand prize...that's a guarantee that they just didn't get an egg. lol

 

 

Ah, but I'm a cynical old dog, so....

I get where you're coming from; the whole guilt-tripping thing. But what about the wee commons people pick up that have codes they think suit those of the pesky prizes, and gift to the owners? I know of several who've done so, and I personally can't see any malice involved. Anyone can pick up a common (hence the group title, 'common); there is no chance in heck of any prizewinner trading the offspring of their dragons for something as easy to acquire as that. So no harm intended?

[skauble]

I get where you're coming from; the whole guilt-tripping thing. But what about the wee commons people pick up that have codes they think suit those of the pesky prizes, and gift to the owners? I know of several who've done so, and I personally can't see any malice involved. Anyone can pick up a common (hence the group title, 'common); there is no chance in heck of any prizewinner trading the offspring of their dragons for something as easy to acquire as that. So no harm intended?

This kind of scenario (along with some others) is why I think it would be nice to be able to anonymously send people eggs. Because with things like wishlist helping and some of the random giving it would be nice to do so and leave the receiver absolutely free of any feeling that they have to take the egg being offered or a sense of indebtedness or the need to respond in kind.

 

That way the possible harassing aspect would be largely removed.

[Hellen]

TBH, The "Cynical old dog" has a point there *Gets shot for using the nickname*

 

 

I bet half of the people that send the new shimmer owners gifts, have never before even heard or seen those winners before, or bothered with "unimportant" users, let alone send shiny gifts out to them.

 

 

Just saying.

 

 

 

 

On another note, it´s sad hearing "I am glad if I am done with my list, those people are bothering me so much...."

 

What the heck is wrong with DC lately <.<

Makes me want to quit. Seriously *sighs*

[SandstormL]

Everyone seems to be going on about how free gifting has motives...

 

To be honest, I like to gift.

 

Why?

 

Giving gifts to others is a great feeling, I like making others happy, even if it is with pixel dragons.

 

I think everyone and their dog offering gifts for a new exclusive dragon is kinda bound to happen, I mean everyone wants it and not everyone can get it. I don't feel prize dragons are fair in that aspect.

 

I think you guys are going overboard about the whole gifting thing. Not everyone who gifts shimmer owners have bad intentions, and what's the harm of asking if they will trade an offspring, taking a no means no, and gifting them something anyway as a thanks for their time? I don't really see the problem.

 

[Xylene]

On the IRC, I PM'd not one, but two prize winners - without knowing they were prize winners. Or even who they were. (I thought they were new people.)

 

I was asking the first questions, and offering to hunt an egg for the second. I'm used to people finding a sudden conversation odd, but I'd never had the feeling that people were wary of me. After about ten minutes with the first person, and five with the second, it clicked and I asked, "...Are you a prize owner?" Turns out, both of those winners were wary because they were expecting me to spring something on them - to say, "Hey, I"ll trade you this" or "I'll gift you this if you breed [prize] for me!" In both cases I wound up apologizing and being so embarrassed because of how I must've come off.

 

In some cases, people just hear you say "Oh, I don't have [dragon]" and decide "You know what, I can catch that for you!" Not all the people offering gifts have some ulterior motive; some people just genuinely enjoy gifting. And sometimes they just want to talk because they're blabbermouths you seem nice.

 

I hate that peoples' reactions to prize winners is to suck up to them, that we have to be reminded that harassing others is against the rules, that others have to second-guess people who might just want a nice conversation. A few bad apples really do spoil the bunch, and once you make one person paranoid, it spreads.

 

That said, I'd really appreciate the anonymous egg-gifting method Skauble suggested. It sounds like a fun way to get rid of some of the harassment. And my embarrassment.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Xylene

[Amazon_warrior]

On the IRC, I PM'd not one, but two prize winners - without knowing they were prize winners. Or even who they were. (I thought they were new people.)

 

I was asking the first questions, and offering to hunt an egg for the second. I'm used to people finding a sudden conversation odd, but I'd never had the feeling that people were wary of me. After about ten minutes with the first person, and five with the second, it clicked and I asked, "...Are you a prize owner?" Turns out, both of those winners were wary because they were expecting me to spring something on them - to say, "Hey, I"ll trade you this" or "I'll gift you this if you breed [prize] for me!" In both cases I wound up apologizing and being so embarrassed because of how I must've come off.

 

In some cases, people just hear you say "Oh, I don't have [dragon]" and decide "You know what, I can catch that for you!" Not all the people offering gifts have some ulterior motive; some people just genuinely enjoy gifting. And sometimes they just want to talk because they're blabbermouths you seem nice.

 

I hate that peoples' reactions to prize winners is to suck up to them, that we have to be reminded that harassing others is against the rules, that others have to second-guess people who might just want a nice conversation. A few bad apples really do spoil the bunch, and once you make one person paranoid, it spreads.

 

That said, I'd really appreciate the anonymous egg-gifting method Skauble suggested. It sounds like a fun way to get rid of some of the harassment. And my embarrassment.

...I hate that I'm now just that little bit wary of people PM'ing me with a gift. :| However, I also know that I've been a fairly active member of these forums for some years now and have made many connections with others long before my stroke of luck. As such, I try to step back and put my non-paranoid hat on - sometimes a gift is just that, especially from someone that I've had to-ings and fro-ings with previously. I totally understand the joy of gifting to others because if I see someone looking for something and I can breed/catch it, 9 times out of 10 that's exactly what I'll do. (Plus I very selfishly adore seeing my dragons in beautiful lineages!) I'm also an enthusiastic lineage breeder and when I've finished one then I'll gift out siblings to anyone who shows interest - I'm just pleased that they appreciate my efforts.

 

 

(And in all honesty, I didn't get lots of PMs with teleports attached, to my great relief. If I got one from someone I'd had no previous contact with, I might very gently question what their expectations are but do my level best to keep things civil and friendly.)

[skauble]

Everyone seems to be going on about how free gifting has motives...

 

To be honest, I like to gift.

 

Why?

 

Giving gifts to others is a great feeling, I like making others happy, even if it is with pixel dragons.

I agree that 99.9% of players here aren't going to be demanding after gifting something. And even if they wanted to do something like make themselves known to the person for future dealings, I don't believe they'd claim that any kind of obligation stems from their gift.

 

So yeah, most of us definitely gift just because we like to.

 

Here's where I think the issue is:

 

I think everyone and their dog offering gifts for a new exclusive dragon is kinda bound to happen, I mean everyone wants it and not everyone can get it. I don't feel prize dragons are fair in that aspect.

 

I think you guys are going overboard about the whole gifting thing. Not everyone who gifts shimmer owners have bad intentions, and what's the harm of asking if they will trade an offspring, taking a no means no, and gifting them something anyway as a thanks for their time? I don't really see the problem.

There's a difference between gifting someone and contacting someone about a trade. A gift is something you give to someone without expectation of something in return. But if people are offering something because they're trying to get dragon X, then that's not really a gift, it's the beginning of a negotiation.

 

I think that it's the blurring of that line that makes people uncomfortable, because the motivation and expectations may or may not be the same as with normal gifting. And while with most people it really is a genuine gift, with that small percentage of people (which, considering the size of the game, can actually translate into more individuals than one might think) the silent expectations they attach to the egg they "gift" can translate into ugliness later on.

 

Like Amazon_warrior said, most the time you put on your non-paranoia hat because, frankly, life's just more fun if you assume, the vast majority of the time, that people have positive motivations and good intentions. But since these things actually have happened to people before there is some value in the issue being brought up from time to time so that a. players know what their options are if it happens, and b. people get a chance to see what behaviors some people might consider be line-crossing.

[Hellen]

I´m not saying that ALL gifters are bad persons.

 

Really not.

 

 

It´s just making me really queasy if you get suddenly pm-ed with tons of gifts by people you have never even SEEN let alone talked to at all.

 

 

 

 

meh

Edited February 21, 2013 by Hellen

[skauble]

On another note, I want to really tell some people off from harrassing my friend.

I promised her not to, but it gets harder by the moment and I have no idea what to do without breaking her trust in me, and not breaking the rules.

I don't know your friend's situation, but this thread is to remind people that the moderators not only can help them if they're being harassed, but really want to do so. So if she hasn't, maybe the best thing to do is encourage her to contact a mod.

 

In the end, it makes the game better for everyone because it not only helps solve the problem for that player, but it also helps to stop the harassing person from doing that to other players.

[TheGrox]

This is why I didn't send any prizewinners gifts to begin with. I offered a few trades, and a few accepted them. Only then, when I had got to know the winners a bit, did I even think about sending them little gifts from their wishlists, because then they knew I didn't have any alterior motives - we'd already agreed a trade and I was being polite and thanking them with a little gift.

 

I honestly prefer to gift to people I know fairly well already; because they know there are no strings attached. Gifting random people you don't know at all, and that are only made known to you because they are a winner seems a bit fishy to me. I know most people don't have other motives, but some obviously do.

 

 

If someone ever gifts me anything (which is rare ), I always have a little feeling that I should be giving something back; I usually do look at their wishlist and try to get them something in return. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like just accepting gifts without giving something back.

 

 

I quite like what skauble suggested, of an anonymous gifting method. I think it would be very useful, and might stop some of the current harassment. Someone should make a thread in suggestions about it, if there isn't one already?

Edited February 21, 2013 by TheGrox

[Evilminion]

But the random gifts are often the most fun! I will never stop poking through the forums to find people to throw tinsels at, for example, and most of those players are not those I've dealt with before, or in many cases will ever talk to again.

 

But here's the awesome part... every so often, I drop an egg on someone, and we DO talk again later. And maybe again after that. And the next thing you know, you've made a new friend, one whom you might not have otherwise met if you hadn't been handing out eggs.

 

Which reminds me... *lobs a ~Removed. This is not a gifting topic.~

See? Fun!

 

In all seriousness, I've been afraid from the start that this thread will be disruptive -- now, people who might not have been looking for ulterior motive behind every nice gesture, or potential insult in each trade PM, will be worried into scrutinizing both for trickery or harassment, and will enjoy the game less for that worry. I really don't want to see this great community spoiled by the sort of drama, backstabbing, and paranoia that typifies certain other game sites. Dragon Cave has always been the friendly one.

Edited February 21, 2013 by _Z_

[secretariat]

~Removed. This is not a gifting topic.~ Edited February 21, 2013 by _Z_

[Mysfytt]

I had to put a banner in my sig the first 5 minutes my name was found out as being the maker of the shimmers, so I know exactly what this thread is talking about. Yes I got demands/requests from absolute strangers wanting trades on 2nd gens before the egg had even hatched. If I didn't put a final stop to it I could see it getting very nasty very quickly.

 

Then there is the other side where now people are 'bad mouthing' me because I refuse to share the 2nd gens other than the ones I am gifting to the other artists, I got a warn for semi swearing, not sure if the originator did too - but they swore at me first and it is very easy to loose it when people either harass you via Pm wanting stuff and you don't even KNOW them, or they say bad things about you and how greedy you are (though going by what it seems the other prize holders demanded now I don't blame them actually) because no they cannot demand a 2nd gen like they planned. It really makes me not want to be here. I did it for a very good reason, and not to get richer by taking the bid with the most bling, but to stop the harassment for good.

 

I am glad the situation is being taken seriously, because it shouldn't be that you get a PM demanding you give someone something just because they have a CB metal or neglected to give - usually these ones are able to grab all the CB metals or make all the NDs they like so get used to getting what they want.

 

ps I hate neglecteds.

[stagazer_7]

But the random gifts are often the most fun! I will never stop poking through the forums to find people to throw tinsels at, for example, and most of those players are not those I've dealt with before, or in many cases will ever talk to again.

 

But here's the awesome part... every so often, I drop an egg on someone, and we DO talk again later. And maybe again after that. And the next thing you know, you've made a new friend, one whom you might not have otherwise met if you hadn't been handing out eggs.

 

Which reminds me... *lobs a fresh shiny into the forum*

 

See? Fun!

 

In all seriousness, I've been afraid from the start that this thread will be disruptive -- now, people who might not have been looking for ulterior motive behind every nice gesture, or potential insult in each trade PM, will be worried into scrutinizing both for trickery or harassment, and will enjoy the game less for that worry. I really don't want to see this great community spoiled by the sort of drama, backstabbing, and paranoia that typifies certain other game sites. Dragon Cave has always been the friendly one.

I fullheartedly agree with you. <3 Being able to breed and gift my dragons is what keeps this game interesting for me, if it was just about catching and collecting dragons, I don't believe I'd still be around. But having the chance to make people happy and meet new friends by getting them a nice gift from their wishlists, that's DC's true gold!

[TheGrox]

I had to put a banner in my sig the first 5 minutes my name was found out as being the maker of the shimmers, so I know exactly what this thread is talking about. Yes I got demands/requests from absolute strangers wanting trades on 2nd gens before the egg had even hatched. If I didn't put a final stop to it I could see it getting very nasty very quickly.

 

Then there is the other side where now people are 'bad mouthing' me because I refuse to share the 2nd gens other than the ones I am gifting to the other artists, I got a warn for semi swearing, not sure if the originator did too - but they swore at me first and it is very easy to loose it when people either harass you via Pm wanting stuff and you don't even KNOW them, or they say bad things about you and how greedy you are (though going by what it seems the other prize holders demanded now I don't blame them actually) because no they cannot demand a 2nd gen like they planned. It really makes me not want to be here. I did it for a very good reason, and not to get richer by taking the bid with the most bling, but to stop the harassment for good.

 

But then there's the nice people who want to trade for a 2nd gen, that can't make NDs or catch CB Metals, but still try their hardest to be polite and get them. For the few people that could be classed as 'harassing' prizewinners, there are a lot that don't. I can actually see why people would be angry at you, because only giving 2nd gens to other spriters, whilst a nice gesture, completely shuts out the rest of the community from ever getting one. In my opinion, you can do whatever the hell you want with your prize, as can anyone who wins, but I know a few people who were rather annoyed at your decision. It's a bit like prizewinners saying "list is open only for 2nd gen swaps", which I know annoys a lot of people. Because that too shuts out the rest of the community from getting one. The very nature of DC is at you can get anything you want (rares, CB's, etc) by putting enough effort in (by catching, trading, etc), and prizes somewhat go against that ethos. So yes, prizes in general cause a lot of harassment, if you ask me. The way things are going, I can see us not having a raffle next year. >.>

Edited February 21, 2013 by TheGrox