Fake Low Gen Tinsels

[DarkEternity]

The simplest solution, thus, is to actually enforce rare requirements properly in threads like the Rares Trading Centre.

 

Honestly, it just goes to show how indoctrinated people are on this values system. Value is so ultra subjective, unless, of course, you are actually trading. That's when people start getting labelled as 'scammers' attempting to 'exploit' the system or deliberately attempting to 'waste people's time'.

 

Not only is there a complete lack of appreciation for deadlines as an art form but this viewpoint fails to depict the trader as a person who is mature and capable of making their own decisions. I'm sorry, but if traders cannot do appropriate research about the nature of the game, they should not be allowed near Dragon Cave. In the real world, we do not babysit buisnessmen or people interested in buying shares. If you make a stupid decision to trade for something, good for you.

 

Have mercy on my soul, there are so many problems like murder, rape and terrorism which are horrible.

 

Man, killing pixels must be morally hideous... #firstworldproblems

Edited March 31, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Kiyoura]

TJ has 'fixed' lineages so you can see past the dead dragons...

Thus permanently ruining some perfectly good lineages.

I made some true deadlined 2nd gens before the deadline 'fix' was implemented.

http://dragcave.net/lineage/80b6u

http://dragcave.net/lineage/FoB9Q

I learned something new today about dragcave.

[DarkEternity]

I suppose that from now on, dead dragons won't free up names...

[senyi]

Love those tinsels ^~^

[Bu-tan]

Unless the owner unnamed it, perhaps? That is if you can still actually do any actions on a dead dragon's page? I guess the only way to know is to experiment. I also don't think deadlines are ruined just from being able to see the original lineage fully by visiting the dead dragon's page. Not to me, anyway, I still want some. :3

 

I still don't really see what the big deal is with getting uppidy for 'false' lineages. It's no different then making NDs and all manner of other debate that's probably already been gone over in the thread, blah blah blah.

 

Still gonna make mine eventually for an even gen. I have this guy from three years back. Both parents were already dead when I picked up the egg from the AP. It'd make a lovely even gen mate for a deadlined silver tin.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Bu-tan

[Wahya]

The only time I find killing appropriate is to put Zombies in a line (and obviously this should be done during Halloween). Otherwise, it's definitely not something I'd do, or want to trade for. Tombstones are ugly. But that's just me.

 

And IDC if one of the parents is dead - to me, the gen number remains the same.

 

For example, when a parent passes, that doesn't make the child/children suddenly a higher gen in the family tree IRL, whether you're dealing with humans, dogs, or any other creature. So there's no such thing as a fake low gen - something is either low gen or it's not.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Wahya

[Ayelldee]

Won't do it, will NEVER trade for one. Do NOT think deadlines are 'art forms'.

[Shadowdrake]

Tombstones aren't that great, yeah, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them "ugly". They're simplistic, is all.

 

I mean, look at this. It must have taken forever to put together. If you click the first dragons, you'll see their lineage keeps going on a bunch more generations to deadlines. The line's not much different from a purposely inbred line from 2 CB dragons. There's also that project with the Rosebuds and silver tinsel deadlines.

Honestly, the only reason CBs are 1st-gen is because we don't know the gens of the wild parents, they could be deadlines, inbred, messy, probably all of the above except they're also wild-born.

 

Trading is, of course, subjective. People don't like different things, whether it be deadlined, inbred, messy, long-lineaged, not CB, whatever.

 

I think the only thing you can do with recently dead dragons is revive them. Not sure about long-dead dragons, I'll have to test that with mine. After I unname them, of course.

[RMS]

Oh, I was wondering if people actually killed off CB tinsels to make PBs. I wish more of the EG 'PB' tinsel deadlines showed up in trades; they're pretty neat-looking.

[kleptomaniac]

I'm kind of mad the deadline "fix" was implemented. D: It's def put a spanner in two of my major lineage projects so I'm not a fan.

 

I don't mind deadlines, as I obviously make them, but I usually only breed them for my own entertainment. I have no idea why people are so offended by them - they're hardly a "scam," - people have the ability to look at the lineage of an egg before they trade for it, and it only takes maximum 10 seconds soo...

eh.

I'll take a neat deadline over a messy inbred dragon 10 times out of 10.

 

 

And in the case of Santa, that's just one bad apple spoiling the bunch. :| It was crappy thing to do, but ... idk. I just wish there was a better way to go about it.

Edited April 1, 2013 by kleptomaniac

[kerrikins]

And in the case of Santa, that's just one bad apple spoiling the bunch. :| It was crappy thing to do, but ... idk. I just wish there was a better way to go about it.

I just want to say that I wouldn't even call that a 'bad apple'. I mean, we are all free to kill our dragons whenever we want - just because someone else has offspring of my eggs doesn't mean that I'm obligated to not kill it.

 

That's one reason I actually kind of like what TJ has implemented, here - it keeps the deadline (just need to unname first) but lets people 'look' at the lineage that was there before. I know that lineages with a dead dragon smack in the middle will still be impacted but I think this was the best compromise for people who enjoy creating deadlines and those who dislike having the lineages they've built ruined when a dragon is killed.

[Shamiir]

But this is no 'compromise'.

A compromise was thrashed out in the Suggestions sections. So it it is possible that this saving of the data is just the first step in that direction. One can hope.

 

It would be nice to know, though, whether to keep on working with the currently ruined deadlines or not.

 

I really like my little deadlines that I had started working on. Once you open up to the possibilities, there are many projects one can do that are just not possible with caves.

 

eg

http://dragcave.net/lineage/LUTpP

http://dragcave.net/lineage/tsnqm

 

On the other hand, if deadlines stay as they are, it will create quite a market for 'original' tombstone lines.

Perhaps we need a thread in the breeding section so we can help each other continue what's been started until the situation becomes clear?

[tjekan]

What am I missing? I'm not seeing any difference on the old tombstone lineage pages and the new ones. The ancestors of the dead dragon still do not appear on the lineage page. So lineages that have been "pruned" to look even and/or short, still appear on the page as even and/or short. How does this change spoil those lineages? The only visual difference is that the dead dragon's name is still there, and I assume that even that would not happen if you unnamed the dragon before killing it, right?

[Bu-tan]

You can actually click the tombstones of dead dragons in those lineages presented. They've kept their names regardless of being dead for a couple months now instead of changing to the '(Deceased)'.

 

You can also click on the tombstone, bringing you to the dragon page. Once there, you can actually view the lineage of the dead dragon. That did not work that way before. Once it hit the '(Deceased)' marker, there was no data on the dragon anymore.

 

ETA: I assume it's ruined only due to the fact that you can backtrack where the lineage originated from in this way. Before, there was no way of doing so once it hit the (Deceased) mark after, what was it....two weeks? Now it's plainly visible which lineages, ect, the dragon descended from before the deadline was created via the dead dragon's page.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Bu-tan

[Draco Knight]

This new way of doing the tombstones doesn't bother me, except I would have erased my dragon's names in the newer deadlines I made. I just assumed they would disappear eventually so didn't bother.

 

So...I hope this doesn't mean that names of killed dragons are forever taken by those dragons. Well, i guess they would free up if the owner of the dead dragon goes inactive or has their scroll burned. I hope?

Edited April 1, 2013 by Draco Knight

[Shamiir]

tjekan, you can click through those new dead dragons and see the motley lineage behind them.

Some might not mind this but to others, including myself, it negates the whole purpose of doing a deadline.

Each may have their own reasons, but I find it very unaesthetic to be able to see the reason I am doing that kill in the first place. So why would I bother?

[tjekan]

Now it's plainly visible which lineages, ect, the dragon descended from before the deadline was created via the dead dragon's page.

Well... no, it's not plainly visible. It's just easily findable. Those are two different things.

 

I totally get why people get upset about changes to the way their dragon's lineage page looks. I don't get at all why someone would be upset about the fact that they could theoretically click enough times to find their dragon's PARENT'S lineage. Couldn't you just... not click on that if you don't want to look at it? The actual deadlined dragon still looks exactly the same on its lineage page as it did before. So do all its children, for that matter.

[SolarCat]

I don't like the whole "Dead Dragons keep their names" thing, unless the system is set up so those names are still available for use for someone with a living dragon. I suppose I can live with the rest.

[Bu-tan]

Well... no, it's not plainly visible. It's just easily findable. Those are two different things.

 

I totally get why people get upset about changes to the way their dragon's lineage page looks. I don't get at all why someone would be upset about the fact that they could theoretically click enough times to find their dragon's PARENT'S lineage. Couldn't you just... not click on that if you don't want to look at it? The actual deadlined dragon still looks exactly the same on its lineage page as it did before. So do all its children, for that matter.

I'm very tired from being out a lot today, so let me rephrase that. It's more accessible where before it was not possible as Shamiir said, most did it to 'erase' the old lineage entirely.

 

I personally do not care either way. I was just giving my perceived guess on what I gathered was the fuss. A deadline is a deadline regardless if you can peep at where it came from. The lineage page, as you pointed out, still looks like a deadlined page. I suppose people just get frustrated because their purpose was to 'erase' things behind the deadline, which isn't possible now. The dead dragon's lineage is still there and readily accessible to anyone wanting to look.

 

It's not a completely clean slate, well....for the most part.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Bu-tan

[tjekan]

Well, the "clean slate" is the part that has never made any sense to me anyway. Someone's family history doesn't suddenly disappear if you kill their parents, and how could the dragon's owner delete information that had already been recorded on other people's scrolls? Whereas presenting the lineage page of a dragon with dead ancestors in a more aesthetically pleasing, "clean" format does make a reasonable amount of sense. I'm not a fan of tombstone lineages, but some people have spent a lot of time crafting some very pretty ones, and this change does not seem to have negatively affected those.

[Shamiir]

and this change does not seem to have negatively affected those.

I don't get at all why someone would be upset about the fact that they could theoretically click enough times to find their dragon's PARENT'S lineage

And addressing all similar comments, of which there are many

 

I think that those who haven't done, or thought about doing, a deadline are thinking in terms of one single instance of progeny.

 

But players do not wish to go on a mass kill plan to create a lineage that they can't obtain any other way.

Take for example Tinsels, probably the most common one as we simple can't get 'caves'.

You are not going to select 8, 16, 32 tinsels to kill. You are going to select 1 or 2 pairs and breed sibling to get the number you want for your project. Then Kill off the 1 or 2 starter pairs.

 

You are then left with siblings. Once the name and code had disappeared, you were left with (deceased) and no indication that they were sibs.

With the current form, at the moment the killed pixels still have their name. Even if the name drops after some period of time, perhaps they are left with the code.

 

As example, I'll show 2 of mine that I traded for that were half done before the change and the other half after the change (but before we realized that a change had occurred)

http://dragcave.net/lineage/64YNg

http://dragcave.net/lineage/KcCUQ

So now, even with only one parent 'showing' in the lineage, they are clearly 'inbred' and useless as a breeding pair. You don't have to click thru to see that they are inbred. Whether it is left with the name or the code would make no difference.

 

 

I had only just started toying with deadlines because I dislike steps, so it's not a huge deal to alter my plans. But I empathize with those that are partway through some of their large projects.

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) eventuates.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

What I can't understand with the fuss about "fake" low gen tinsels is that anyone trading for them can see what they have got - even the "old" way. They will KNOW it has a dead line. That's all they need to know, really. No-one will rtade fo rit as a low gen anyway.

 

I am more annoyed about the AMAZING deadline lineage I was going to make that will lose a LOT of its subtlety by this new thing. I was never ever going to trade from it - but it would have amused me that it would have started from a deeply inbred pair who were to be MURDERED after producing a zillion children who were going to breed with one another and then it would all have shown as clean - for my own amusement. Not any more

[tjekan]

With the current form, at the moment the killed pixels still have their name. Even if the name drops after some period of time, perhaps they are left with the code.

Then would this problem be solved if unnamed dead dragons continued to say "deceased" instead of their code, whereas named ones continued to have their name? If so, I would support that.

[Kelan]

I have been working on several deadline lineages for quite some time and I don`t mind that now you can see the parents lineage when you click on a tombstone.

But what bothers me is that the dead dragons now keep their names and codes!

For example I bred this evengen Tinsel today: http://dragcave.net/lineage/UDJ6E

And in now you can see that the dragon with the code "0jLMm" was used twice so the lineage looks inbred now .

 

If it stays like that I will have to kill much more dragons if I don`t want my lineages to look inbred.

As far as I`m concerned the clickable lineages could stay but I really would prefer if all dead dragons would just be called "Deceased" again...

[skauble]

What I can't understand with the fuss about "fake" low gen tinsels is that anyone trading for them can see what they have got - even the "old" way. They will KNOW it has a dead line. That's all they need to know, really. No-one will rtade fo rit as a low gen anyway.

I think that the problem comes when new players, who are trying to get the hang of things, understand that the gens are important, but don't necessarily know that the tombstone means it's not really a 3rd gen or whatever, and think that they're getting a good deal. I've seen new players that aren't even really clear on how we count the gens, much less that we deadline things to remove lineages.

 

I like deadlines - I think they're very interesting and they show a lot of time and dedication to a given lineage creation. But there's no reason not to just go ahead and say "3rd gen deadline" to indicate that there's something distinctly different between two given "3rd gens". That way, if people are confused by the additional description they can come and ask about it.

 

And yes, I know that that isn't how real life works, but that's why real life isn't a hobby and, instead, hobbies are what we do to get a brief break from real life.