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Welp. I was unable to openly celebrate Yule this year due to my parents being bigots as usual. And I was also blamed for ruining Christmas. Yaaay. sleep.gif

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Welp. I was unable to openly celebrate Yule this year due to my parents being bigots as usual. And I was also blamed for ruining Christmas. Yaaay. sleep.gif

I have NEVER understood the opposition to other people's holidays. I don't want people yelling at me for celebrating Christmas as an untimely commemoration of the birth of my savior, so I won't yell at anyone for celebrating Hanukkah or Yule or whatever else someone wants to celebrate during a certain season. It's just common courtesy. -sigh-

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I have NEVER understood the opposition to other people's holidays. I don't want people yelling at me for celebrating Christmas as an untimely commemoration of the birth of my savior, so I won't yell at anyone for celebrating Hanukkah or Yule or whatever else someone wants to celebrate during a certain season. It's just common courtesy. -sigh-

THANK YOU.

 

I seriously did not get my parents' opposition to me celebrating Yule. All I got from my dad's ranting was "this is a Christian household, we celebrate Christmas" and "I don't celebrate Yule so keep it away from me." Neither of which are good enough reasons - I wasn't forcing anyone else to celebrate, and Christian household or not I am Pagan. He'll have to accept that someday.

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I have NEVER understood the opposition to other people's holidays. I don't want people yelling at me for celebrating Christmas as an untimely commemoration of the birth of my savior, so I won't yell at anyone for celebrating Hanukkah or Yule or whatever else someone wants to celebrate during a certain season. It's just common courtesy. -sigh-

Me neither. If I know somebody's religion I'll congratulate them for their holiday by name. If I don't I'll just use happy holidays. It's common courtesy.

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I don't get it, either.

 

To me, it's like the "YOU CAN'T EAT THAT DONUT I'M ON A DIET" thing.

 

It's the "YOU CAN'T LIKE THAT show/game/movie/series/whatever, I HATE IT!" thing.

 

I will NEVER understand the "You can't do/enjoy X because I personally hate it/find it distasteful/don't understand it" mentality.

 

I run into that a lot. Not with religion, but with other things. And it always will baffle me. All it does is make everybody unhappy and that's just no good all around.

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Many people have difficulty understanding that liking something does not require that it be good. This is taste. I like L. J. Smith's books, but I'm not sure I'd really call them "good". That's okay. It doesn't make me bad or my preferences bad. But for many people, saying that something they like isn't "good" is treated as an attack.

 

"Good" is a rather subjective concept anyways, but...

 

My family is rather complicated. I'm agnostic, my mother is Jewish and my father is Catholic.

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I have a question for all you bible readers - King James, Catholic, all kinds:

 

I know the bible does say specifically that it is a sin for a man to lie with another man, as if with a woman.

 

BUT, does it specifically say ANYWHERE in the bible that it is a sin for a man to cut off his genitals and to live and dress as a woman? Specifically? Not looking for "possible interpretations" but an actual written in stone account that this is a sin. I'm serious, I am not mocking anyones beliefs. I really want to know. The chapter and verse number.

 

I'm asking because I have a transgendered Male to Female child, going thru his transition. I am getting people, mostly family and friends who know us both, that my son is going to hell, and is a sinner.

 

But, unless they can prove to me that it says specifically in the bible that he is sinning, I am not going to let them use that as a reason for shunning him. If it can't be proven that it is in the bible, then it can only be assessed as to personal opinion, and not something God has decreed a sin.

 

Then I can tell them to take their personal bigotry and...well, you know where. lol.

 

So, anyone, can you find me such a revelation?

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I have a question for all you bible readers - King James, Catholic, all kinds:

 

I know the bible does say specifically that it is a sin for a man to lie with another man, as if with a woman.

 

BUT, does it specifically say ANYWHERE in the bible that it is a sin for a man to cut off his genitals and to live and dress as a woman? Specifically? Not looking for "possible interpretations" but an actual written in stone account that this is a sin. I'm serious, I am not mocking anyones beliefs. I really want to know. The chapter and verse number.

 

I'm asking because I have a transgendered Male to Female child, going thru his transition. I am getting people, mostly family and friends who know us both, that my son is going to hell, and is a sinner.

 

But, unless they can prove to me that it says specifically in the bible that he is sinning, I am not going to let them use that as a reason for shunning him. If it can't be proven that it is in the bible, then it can only be assessed as to personal opinion, and not something God has decreed a sin.

 

Then I can tell them to take their personal bigotry and...well, you know where. lol.

 

So, anyone, can you find me such a revelation?

I'm going to preface this by saying that I am both Christian and identify as transgendered myself. Which means I have an obvious bias in my interpretation. That said you probably won't find any interpretations that *don't* have some level of bias.

 

For myself, personally, I have never found anything in the Bible that I find incompatible with my self identity. Cue some exposition: Adam (and later Jesus, who, for the purposes of this argument, doesn't actually count) was made a perfect man, yes. But it is generally accepted that the Fall, and sin, have distanced us from that perfection. Hence birth-defects - we're poor copies of the original.

The Bible also says that God knows our hearts, and loves us (several references, among which: Acts 15:8 "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us.".). Which, to me, says that the person we are *inside* is more important to God that the physical person *outside* (note, also backed by scripture. Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth night unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.".). It's never argued that fixing things like a cleft palet are against 'Gods' will'. Nor have I ever seen it argued that cosmetic surgery (Breast implants for cis-women for example) are against Gods will, despite those being largely based in vanity. So it's generally understood that changing some parts of the physical form one was born with is not a sin, as long as one's heart is remaining true to God.

 

Which is how I came to my position. God knows me better than anyone, and he loves me for who I am inside. As long as my heart remains with God, then changing my outer form to fit my inner heart should not be offensive to Him.

 

On the Devil's advocate side of things the most common argument against it is also one of the most common used against homosexuality: Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.". For many people this is taken to mean that physically male and physically female are how God creates us at birth, and that it is not our place to mess with his design.

 

Now, obviously, I do have issues with that argument. Based largely in the fact that we do a lot of "Messing with his design" that we *don't* worry about. I would also argue that God does create out hearts, so changing our form to be an outward reflection of that still shouldn't mess up His creation.

 

So, no. Not mentioned specifically anywhere in the Bible, and it *is* all down to interpretation. Added to which such people can be countered using scripture yourself. I'd suggest any/all of the following pieces of scripture:

 

On love

1 John 4: 7-8 "Beloved let us love one another: for love is of God, and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

 

John 13: 34-35 "A new comandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

 

On who to show love to

Matthew 5: 46-48 "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans have the same?

And if ye salute your brethren, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect."

 

Luke 6: 31 "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."

 

Leviticus 19: 18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

 

On judgement

1 Corinthians 4: 4-5 "For I know nothing by myself; yet I am not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

 

Proverbs 29: 26 "Many seek the rulers favour; but every mans judgement cometh from the LORD."

 

Matthew 7: 1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

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Very well reasoned. And I am glad to see that there is no specific mention of body-altering, nor donning the attire of the opposite gender and presenting oneself as such, is wrong as far as the bible is concerned.

 

Speculation and interpretation do not bother me, for is not everything subject to such? But based on this, those naysayers have no case, except to prove themselves personally bigoted.

 

Thank you.

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Just throwing my chip into the very large pot:

 

Raised Protestant Christian

 

Chosen Eclectic Pagan

 

Had a very, very traditional upbringing in christian ideas. Beat the debate horse to death on both sides of the coin over times--first with what I was taught to think, and then, when I learned -how- to think. I've been known to play devil's advocate on views typically unliked among the vast side of the pagan community, and have been known to resist mainstream ideas in any religion or spiritual sect, but rather opt for individual truths and uncovered knowledges. I do a lot of personal study, nonconformist to any one religion, but instead across many--past and present both.

 

I'm just going to avoid talk of homosexuality and transgender debate because, frankly, I've argued that so many times both religious and secularly, I really don't want to pee all over the corpse of the dead horse I've already beaten into glue.

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Very well reasoned. And I am glad to see that there is no specific mention of body-altering, nor donning the attire of the opposite gender and presenting oneself as such, is wrong as far as the bible is concerned.

 

Speculation and interpretation do not bother me, for is not everything subject to such? But based on this, those naysayers have no case, except to prove themselves personally bigoted.

 

Thank you.

That's no specific mention I can bring to mind. And, given how it's one of my aspie obsession, it probably means that if there *is* something only a theologian will easily be able to point it out. Not your average church-goer.

 

Side-note: y'all are quite lucky I had to take the dog to the vet this morning, or you may have ended up with a sermon (and me expounding on) the whole 'judge not' bit.

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I have a question for all you bible readers - King James, Catholic, all kinds:

 

I know the bible does say specifically that it is a sin for a man to lie with another man, as if with a woman.

 

BUT, does it specifically say ANYWHERE in the bible that it is a sin for a man to cut off his genitals and to live and dress as a woman? Specifically? Not looking for "possible interpretations" but an actual written in stone account that this is a sin. I'm serious, I am not mocking anyones beliefs. I really want to know. The chapter and verse number.

 

I'm asking because I have a transgendered Male to Female child, going thru his transition. I am getting people, mostly family and friends who know us both, that my son is going to hell, and is a sinner.

 

But, unless they can prove to me that it says specifically in the bible that he is sinning, I am not going to let them use that as a reason for shunning him. If it can't be proven that it is in the bible, then it can only be assessed as to personal opinion, and not something God has decreed a sin.

 

Then I can tell them to take their personal bigotry and...well, you know where. lol.

 

So, anyone, can you find me such a revelation?

No, it doesn't say that being a transgender is wrong, anywhere.

 

I am a Christian and I see nothing wrong with someone being a transgender. After all, you didn't choose how you feel. I don't know what exactly causes them to feel this way, but I know that the bible does not say its a sin because it simply doesn't mention it. I do not believe Leviticus 18:22 applies to transgenders because being a trans does not make you a homosexual. Those are two completely different things.

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I do not believe Leviticus 18:22 applies to transgenders because being a trans does not make you a homosexual. Those are two completely different things.

Just out of curiosity, how would that apply to trans* people who are also homosexual?

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Just out of curiosity, how would that apply to trans* people who are also homosexual?

Such a good question. Ive wondered the same. I don't completely know the answer, but I assume that if a man became a woman and had sex with other women, then he would by some Christians be considered straight, but in my eyes, that would mean hes gay.

 

Some people dont believe you can change into another gender. Some people, including Catholics, at least by their Catholic doctrine from the Catechism believe that you are what you are from birth even if you say you're not. So if you were a man who became a woman, they would just regard you as a mutilated man.

 

The bible does not mention trans so I cannot really fully answer the question. Many Christians will give you different answers because there are so many branches of Christianity. A lot of them have their own dogma beliefs, some of which aren't even mentioned in the bible.

 

I hope someone else can answer this but I'm not sure it would be possible to know for sure.

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@luckynicole:

May I ask what you personally believe about it, then? (I swear, I'm really just curious. My knowledge of Christianity comes from only a single Lutheran sect. I like hearing other points of view.)

 

Completely unrelated to that question... I just had an interesting thought. For those of you who believe we are created by a god/gods, how do you believe disabilities happen? Are they some sort of test or punishment, or just happen because we're all different? Or do you believe they have nothing to do with the way said god/s created us and happen on their own?

Edited by St. Jimmy

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I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Most people call us Mormons. I've been a member all of my life

Edited by Queen Firebreath

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I was raised Protestant, was a very strong Christian in high school, went to a Christian college...and gradually realized that the more I learned about faith and the bible, the less I really believed in it. For a time I considered myself somewhere on the agnostic/atheist spectrum, and then I felt more or less called to a certain ancient deity, which was a huge surprise to me. So I'm more or less pagan, apparently, though still with a healthy dose of skepticism. My patron god is Anubis.

 

I also have a great love for Unitarianism--I have to say, atheists, agnostics, pagans, heck, whoever, I strongly encourage you to stop by a Unitarian service sometime. It's beautiful, and the focus isn't on afterlife or whatever so much as finding joy in the world and using your time to help others, and above all, love. They also welcome people of ALL faiths.

 

I will say from studying the bible intently in an academic setting...I think Leviticus's anti-gay stuff was less about The Gay itself and more because the ancient Jews were trying to repopulate ASAP and two dudes getting jiggy isn't really helpful to that cause. (doesn't mention ladies there, so presumably that wasn't a concern. tongue.gif ) And Sodom and Gomorrah were to me less about "These dudes are gay!" and more about "These dudes are really psycho rapists!" Similarly, a lot of Paul's references in the NT to homosexuality come alongside other pagan rites--I personally suspect it was less about The Gay itself and more about the fact that it was a practice used in pagan worship, which he was opposed to since he was trying to convert the masses. That said...I do have some severe Paul issues so I'll stop there. tongue.gif

 

...I talk a lot.

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I was raised Presbyterian in my early childhood, but chose to be baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) when I was in high school.

 

That said, I currently consider myself to be a (very abnormal) Christian. I believe in a singular God, and that He is most likely the same one in Christianity, Islam and all other major monotheistic religions. I'm a big believer in the idea that every religion has some kind of truth in it, and none have a total truth. I pray, I occasionally go to various churches with friends and family, and I often spend an unhealthy amount of time contemplating life, the universe and everything.

 

What I eventually decided was that anything done with good intentions is, essentially, good. God, or any being worthy of being worshiped, knows us well enough to know if we mean well or not. No well-meaning person will ever be punished.

 

On homosexuality, two of the three boys I have dated have had boyfriends themselves since we decided to end our relationships. I still love both of them dearly and believe they have every right to love whoever they want. One of them was recently considering a gender-changing operation, I supported him wholeheartedly. I believe God will never be mad at them for being themselves.

 

EDIT: I just spotted a couple of things about the bible and scripture stuff on the first page or so. My thoughts on that:

Nothing that old can be taken perfectly literally. It's been translated, hand copied and passed via word of mouth too many times to be exact. I've heard that centuries ago the popes even omitted parts they didn't agree with. My answer: the bible can't be taken too literally, or even too seriously for that matter. It acts as a base for a moral code, which should be interpreted differently in today's world than in old testament times, or even two hundred years ago.

 

I should stop typing now, I'm supposed to be doing homework. rolleyes.gif

 

(I haven't looked more than a page back, so I may edit this later with a question or something.)

Edited by Zigadooz

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I've really enjoyed the last few posts about everyone's beliefs! smile.gif I thought they were well articulated and I like hearing what you guys have to say on what you believe.

 

I've probably already stated this like a zillion times since the thread started, but I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I grew up in an atheist household with grandparents that were southern baptists that would sometimes take me to church, despite my mothers' wishes. I was curious as a child as to whether or not the God my grandparents believed in truly exists, but as I got older I became more disinterested with religion and spirituality altogether and took up other hobbies or points of interest.

 

Then, a couple years ago, my thoughts on the matter reawakened and I thought more about the entire subject. I came to the conclusion that I don't believe that an actual deity does exist, or that there is some otherworldly conscious being out there that directly influences the world itself. I think that if such a power did exist, that a God or God(s) did not seek to have humans or their subjects adhere to a specific set of rules. Guidelines, if you will smile.gif I think what matters most to a deity, if they are truly a loving and merciful deity, is the kindness and benevolence you treat your surroundings with, including yourself, and how you impact those around you. I don't think the Bible or any other holy text is really all that important when it comes down to it, but rather what you do with yourself, your thoughts, and your power as an individual that counts.

 

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I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Most people call us Mormons. I've been a member all of my life

I have a question. Why do you believe Jesus came to America and lived here. And why do you think the Garden of Eden is in modern day Missouri? Both of those statements are in the Book of Mormon. Most bible scholars believe that the Garden of Eden was in between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. How did Jesus come to America? Also, why did Joseph Smith say that God turned Indians skin color dark red due to them disobeying him? Dark skin is not a result of punishment. Dark skin is due to people adapting to their environment over many many years. Like black people in Africa, their dark skin is to protect them from the sun. It is not due to disobeying God.

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Dark skin is not a result of punishment. Dark skin is due to people adapting to their environment over many many years. Like black people in Africa, their dark skin is to protect them from the sun. It is not due to disobeying God.

I've thought that old time Christians believed that dark skin was a mark of Cain. Wasn't that also used as an excuse for slavery?

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