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And to say that they are not sinning is your opinion, not fact.

But to say they ARE sinning, from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in the bible, is your opinion. So...y'know.

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But it is sorta like that. Lets say you stole a car, get in an accident and die, and you aren't given any chance to ever reflect on what you did and feel remorseful. Isn't it impossible to redeem yourself once you are in hell and no amount of regret and remorse you feel over the situation will help you?

And this is when salvation comes in. If youre saved, youve been forgiven. You are given eternal life through salvation.

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And this is when salvation comes in. If youre saved, youve been forgiven. You are given eternal life through salvation.

Thus those who die refusing to be Christian are in hell, correct?

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Thus those who die refusing to be Christian are in hell, correct?

Technicaly yes, but I will qualify that by saying that there are varying interpretations of 'hell' even among Christian denominations. My own, personal, study of the Bible has led me to conclude that 'hell' is eternal seperation from God... which, let's face it, if you are refusing the Christian concept of God in the first place isn't really all that much of a punishment for you.

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Technicaly yes, but I will qualify that by saying that there are varying interpretations of 'hell' even among Christian denominations. My own, personal, study of the Bible has led me to conclude that 'hell' is eternal seperation from God... which, let's face it, if you are refusing the Christian concept of God in the first place isn't really all that much of a punishment for you.

So living a decent life, being kind and generous when you can means absolutely nothing, yes?

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I care.

 

 

This is exactly why I said I wouldn't stop them or interfere, I just don't support their actions. Read more carefully next time before attacking please. And to say that they are not sinning is your opinion, not fact.

 

Also: This is exactly why I was hesitant of posting on this thread, because of people like you that instead of discussing shove their opinions in as fact and say all else is wrong.

Attacking? huh.gif ooookay

 

To say that they are sinning is an opinion as well.

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hello!

 

I came to share views on religion.

 

okay so I'll start by saying I am a Muslim. and I follow Islam

 

the basic belief of muslims is that there is only one god. and the very last prophet is Muhammed peace and blessings be upon him.

 

the word "Allah" (pronounced ul-law) means "one true god"

 

Muslims believe that god has no partners, and that this life is a test, everything in this world will come to an end and the only thing that you will carry with you when you die are you deeds for which you will be judged for.

 

however no matter how bad someone may look or how good someone may look, no one is allowed to say "such and such person is going to hell/heaven"

 

because deeds are based on intention. and no one knows what someone is intending.

 

for example:

you see two men. one man is dressed very modestly and is quiet he goes to the Mosque(house of worship for muslims) every day and prays. everyone always talks about how religious he is and how blessed he is.

 

the other man doesn't really pray. he also wears very street like clothing. everyone sees this man and says very bad things to him.

 

normally you would probably guess the first man will go to heaven and the other will be punished in hell

however thats not the case...

the first man

did all those things so people can be impressed with him. he never worshiped god honestly and at his house he would be very rude and mean to his family.

the second man

didn't know that much about his religion and had hard time remembering to pray. every time he forgot he always asked god to forgive him and to help him. if his family asked for something he would go out of his way to make them happy, and every time he learned something new about his religion he would teach it to his family.

 

its for these cases that no one on this earth can say whether or not a human is doomed in hell or is blessed with heaven.

Rights of Women.

one of the most misunderstood concepts is the rights of women in Islam.

 

did you know? Islam was the first one to give rights to women. before America did.

 

for instance Islam gave women the right to...

 

go to school

own a job

own property

participate in warfare

control her wedding.

 

Men are not allowed to harm a women in any way in Islam.

the womens parents is not allowed by no means to force a women in to marriage or the marriage is invalid.

 

there is more I would like to put but I'm running out of time

I hope you all have had some of you questions answered. laugh.gif

 

 

 

 

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and the only thing that you will carry with you when you die are you deeds for which you will be judged for.

 

See, I could stand behind this. Unfortunately, too many religions claim that only followers of that religion can be awarded.

 

one of the most misunderstood concepts is the rights of women in Islam.

 

did you know? Islam was the first one to give rights to women. before America did.

 

for instance Islam gave women the right to...

 

go to school

own a job

own property

participate in warfare

control her wedding

 

 

1827Brazil: The first elementary schools for girls and the profession of school teacher are open

 

1788. France: noble widows are known to have voted to the French States-General in in the absence of a male guardian.

1788–89. United States of America: Female citizens may stand for election for federal offices, though they still could not vote.

 

1776. France: Female tailors are allowed in to the guild of tailors

 

1787. Massachusetts: The trade profession is opened to unmarried women

 

1718. Province of Pennsylvania (now U.S. state of Pennsylvania): Married women allowed to own and manage property in their own name during the incapacity of their spouse. And before that Spartan women were granted the same right.

1791. France: Equal inheritance rights (abolished in 1804)

 

Don't know about participate in a warfare. Were Mongols Muslims? Because if they were, a case for that could be made. But for most of those rights, I can't find evidence (at least not fast) for Islam being the first one to give right.

 

Men are not allowed to harm a women in any way in Islam.

the womens parents is not allowed by no means to force a women in to marriage or the marriage is invalid.

 

Explain Sharia law then. How are men not allowed to harm women, when they can do something like this (NOT for the faint of heart) and still be absolved from charges?

 

Sorry if this sounds like attacking you, but the only knowledge of Islam I have was either gained from the internet, or from the Muslims that are living in secularized countries.

Edited by PointOfOrigin

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np your not attacking. your are explaining your points with proofs and in Islam you are suppose to bring proofs with your claims. I didn't because I was short on time but now I can finish.

 

I am still studying Islam in a Islamic university. although I am in this university I only just got out of high school therefore I still have a lot to learn. please forgive me if I cannot answer all of you questions.

 

okay Ill explain shariah law the best I can.

 

Shariah law is the rulings that are taken from revelation. (the Quran)

the main goal of shariah is the preservation of...

 

life

intellect

family

economy

and religion

 

the preservation of life is

the islamic belief that if anything that is normally unlawful threaten one's life then it is permissable to do so and you are not allowed to take someones life.

 

example of severty of taking someone life:

 

the hadith( recordings of the prophet) that says

I did not use his exact word for word.

"if you kill someone it is as if you have killed all of mankind, and if you save a life it is as if you saved all of mankind"

 

example of permissablity to do the unlawful to save you life

 

Abortion and pork is not permissable in Islam HOWEVER if the women's life in danger

that is not just permissable but it is also highly recommended. and if someone is starving they are allowed to eat pork enough to keep them alive.

 

 

 

ask for the abuse of women, especially in the middle east, that is by no means related to islam. just like those priest that are the news occasionally for touching young boys or girls, that is also against the christian religion.

 

here is some more proof that it is against Islam:

 

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry* you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness**. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." [Noble Quran 4:19]

 

*a dowry is a gift a man must present to a women when taking her hand in marriage

**this here is taking about having illegal intercourse, if they do then you are suppose to divorce them.

 

 

ask for the those dates you brought, I was specifically talking about America, I am still young so there is alot.png of history I don't yet, however Islam took place 1,434 years ago

and I dont know the exact time when those rulings protecting women happened

 

here is some proof related to having those rights before America/europe this is taken from this website: Muslim Womens Right in Islam

 

 

 

 

In the area of economic rights, we have to remember that in Europe until the 19th century, women did not have the right to own their own property. When they were married, either it would transfer to the husband or she would not be able to dispense of it without permission of her husband. In Britain, perhaps the first country to give women some property rights, laws were passed in the 1860's known as "Married Women Property Act." More than 1300 years earlier, that right was clearly established in Islamic law.

 

"Whatever men earn, they have a share of that and whatever women earn, they have a share in that." [Noble Quran 4:32]

 

 

 

 

and lastly the regard that religions always says that only their followers are going to heaven, here is Islams take on this:

 

everyone is born with the natural desire to worshipp god

Anyone who comes to a conclusion on the undeniable truth about god and rejects it even after the proof has been set for him then he will be punished,

however

if the person only comes into contact with misunderstandings and falsehood, as long as he is striving for the truth about god then he will not be punshied

 

I hope I answered your questions smile.gif

 

Edited by Anbu Bee

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So living a decent life, being kind and generous when you can means absolutely nothing, yes?

Not in my opinion, no.

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Men are not allowed to harm a women in any way in Islam.

Then how do you explain this?

 

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

 

 

Hadith:

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Edited by luckynicole659

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Im not sure what beat here is refering to. the beating you see done in the middle east where the wife is black and blue or bloody is completely unlawful.

 

the only time where the women or man is severely punsished in that regard is if they commit formication.

 

but like I said before, I am still learning.

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Thanks for answering. I can't get into a serious debate over this since my knowledge on this topic is very limited.

 

Shariah law is the rulings that are taken from revelation. (the Quran)

the main goal of shariah is the preservation of...

 

life

intellect

family

economy

and religion

 

From where do people do people get basis for laws that are clearly in contradiction with Quran? I realize that your version of religion (let's face it, every believer has their own version of god and belief that will never be in accordance with all other practitioners of the faith) and a so often talked about religion of peace doesn't support some of this laws. But how did they came into being, and why haven't they been abolished by now? For them to still exist, they would have to have at least some basis in Quran. Add to that luckynicole's post, and all I get is a picture of a book with as many contradictions as bible.

 

Also, I find saying that crimes against women in middle east aren't connected with the Islam to be wrong. Those people think that their faith allows them to commit crimes, and what's more important, laws based on their faith protect them from punishment. I also find the same to be true for pedophile priests - the church protects them and refuses to hand them over to the law. As such, they are in a sense allowing that behavior to happen and should take at least a part of blame for it.

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The problem about Qur'an is surely also a language problem, the acient words have a lot of meanings in different causes and there are a lot of people (don't want to say especially men of course) who do their interpretation!

 

My imagination from 'god' is a good one, not somebody who is punishing. That is why I can hardly imagine anybody who is acting well in live, supporting and caring about others, with a good and pure heart, will be punished because he didn't have the right religion.

That sounds really silly to me.

 

And nobody can judge anybody, the judgement belongs only to god!

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And to say that they are not sinning is your opinion, not fact.

The reverse can also be said, though--that to say they are sinning is opinion and not fact. You cannot absolutely prove that what they do is a sin.

 

There are some very interesting interpretations of the passages used, even within the Christian community.

 

Some believe it refers specifically to homosexuality in the context of temple prostitution. IIRC, it was used a lot in worship of the pagan gods, which was why it was a sin--not that it was homosexual, but that it was sex in the name of a different god.

 

There's also the idea that it's only a sin if you aren't naturally homosexual. So, it'd be a sin for a straight person to engage in such acts because it is turning against their nature, but that it would be just as much a sin for a homosexual person to engage in straight acts because it is against their nature.

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The problem about Qur'an is surely also a language problem, the acient words have a lot of meanings in different causes and there are a lot of people (don't want to say especially men of course) who do their interpretation!

This is also very true of Christian writings (indeed, it can be said to be worse because the Bible was written in several different languages in the original texts). Different translations can often be interpreted to have several different meanings, and as is so often the case with language a slightly different rendering of a single word can change the entire interpretation of a passage.

 

And let's not forget the massive amounts of issues caused by Paul making up his own words on a couple of occasions dry.gif

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Im not sure what beat here is refering to. the beating you see done in the middle east where the wife is black and blue or bloody is completely unlawful.

 

the only time where the women or man is severely punsished in that regard is if they commit formication.

 

but like I said before, I am still learning.

The passage is talking about if a wife disobeys her husband, he must punish her. And the last strike of her not listening is getting beaten. Basically Mohammad said its okay to beat your wife when she wont listen.

 

Sounds real nice...

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The passage is talking about if a wife disobeys her husband, he must punish her. And the last strike of her not listening is getting beaten. Basically Mohammad said its okay to beat your wife when she wont listen.

 

Sounds real nice...

I'm pretty sure the Bible advocated hitting children (with a rod) as a form of reprimand if they don't do as their parents say.

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Rights of Women.

one of the most misunderstood concepts is the rights of women in Islam.

 

did you know? Islam was the first one to give rights to women. before America did.

 

for instance Islam gave women the right to...

 

go to school

own a job

own property

participate in warfare

control her wedding.

 

Men are not allowed to harm a women in any way in Islam.

the womens parents is not allowed by no means to force a women in to marriage or the marriage is invalid.

I'm pretty sure NobleOwl would say that the Judaism version of women's rights touching on some of the same issues predates Islam, as she has given examples from Judaic writings (I think the Torah) previously. My apologies on not having the specific examples at hand.

 

I do find your perspective very interesting and refreshing. I could not fathom how so many folks would follow a religion stereotyped so extremely anti-women, but then many Christians could be charged with treating women as second-class citizens even though Jesus taught otherwise too. What you describe makes a lot more sense than the stereotyping.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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Not in my opinion, no.

Then my 3 deceased brothers are now in hell for having the audacity to die non-Christian.

 

And folks wonder why I'll never be Christian....

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Then my 3 deceased brothers are now in hell for having the audacity to die non-Christian.

 

And folks wonder why I'll never be Christian....

That isn't what Tikindi meant.

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Then my 3 deceased brothers are now in hell for having the audacity to die non-Christian.

 

And folks wonder why I'll never be Christian....

Yeah, that's actually the opposite of what I meant. You said "yes?" at the end of you post, so I responded "No." to say I didn't agree with you. Thankfully sins here seems to have understood what I meant.

 

a) It is my belief that all souls come to an ultimate day of judgement when they are judged for what is in thier hearts. While I do believe that the best way to maintain a righteous heart is to follow the example Jesus set I do not believe it is the *only* way.

 

B) See my previous post about hell. In my opinion, it's eternal seperation from God. If you don't believe in that God in the first place, why would this concept bother you?

 

Edit: ruddy emoticons ruining my lists....

Edited by TikindiDragon

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I'm pretty sure the Bible advocated hitting children (with a rod) as a form of reprimand if they don't do as their parents say.

Nope. It advocated killing children if they don't listen to their parents. Just a couple of months ago somebody tried to pass a law based on that.

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Nope. It advocated killing children if they don't listen to their parents. Just a couple of months ago somebody tried to pass a law based on that.

Can you please give references to both the biblical statement and the law someone tried to pass?

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