Religion

[zorua9]

i do believe a god and a devil exsist but i am not riligeos, the only reason i dont wanna be religios is necause of more rules, church and worshipping someone with powers, im not saying god and satan isn't real. it's people opinion if they believe in something. and i know that i am a bad speller and my post makes no sense.

[Alpha1]

Having faith in religious founders millennia ago is like believing that Karl Rove or Dick Morris would have given an accurate prediction for this recent presidential election.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Alpha1

[greatguy]

@NobleOwl No, the covenant with the Jews still stand. The new covenant also stands, but as Christians we're not bound to the old one.

 

 

Am I making any sense?

[NixAyum]

Intruding with a random question, feel free to ignore. >3>

 

Is it true that "hallelujah" is actually an imperative meaning "praise god", so very inappropriate to sing /as/ praise to god?

[kiffren]

Intruding with a random question, feel free to ignore. >3>

 

Is it true that "hallelujah" is actually an imperative meaning "praise god", so very inappropriate to sing /as/ praise to god?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah

 

According to wikipedia, it is. "For most Christians, "Hallelujah" is considered a joyful word of praise to God, rather than an injunction to praise him."

 

The actual translation is apparently an instruction to praise him, however it is used as a praise itself.

 

...I'm just quoting/paraphrasing wikipedia, forgive me if I'm wrong.

[ShinyTomato]

Is it true that "hallelujah" is actually an imperative meaning "praise god", so very inappropriate to sing /as/ praise to god?

 

Oh, hey, I know this one! Hallelujah, in Hebrew is two words, not one. Yes, it translates to "Praise G-d," but it is sang in the Psalms, both to remind ourselves to praise G-d and also as a declarative at the same time.

 

Much like how some Christians will say "Praise Jesus!"

[Slaskia]

Lately, if I see someone quoting scripture, I mentally go 'ugh' and skip it, no matter what it is about: I can't stomach it even looking at it, especially if it is a big quote.

 

Background stuff:

 

I was forced raised a Roman Catholic, through I went through the first wo sacraments willingly (because I was a kid and didn't know any better). The third, Confirmation, I attempted to resist going as a teen as I knew by then that this religion was not for me. However, my mother guilt tripped me into going through it anyway and in a way, I resented her for it, even after her death 12 years ago.

 

Naturally, once I left home for the military, I dropped that religion and started to develop my own beliefs, nothing that really matches mainstream religions, but there are influences (Buddism and Wicca/pagan being big ones). Though, tbh, I don't really 'practice' it: I'm more 'meh' over the whole thing (though my mental issues likely have a hand in that).

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if my adversion to scripture is due to me truly feeling like most scripture has been too 'corrupted' by man and thus not worthy of paying attention to?

[demonicvampiregirl]

Lately, if I see someone quoting scripture, I mentally go 'ugh' and skip it, no matter what it is about: I can't stomach it even looking at it, especially if it is a big quote.

 

Background stuff:

 

I was forced raised a Roman Catholic, through I went through the first wo sacraments willingly (because I was a kid and didn't know any better). The third, Confirmation, I attempted to resist going as a teen as I knew by then that this religion was not for me. However, my mother guilt tripped me into going through it anyway and in a way, I resented her for it, even after her death 12 years ago.

 

Naturally, once I left home for the military, I dropped that religion and started to develop my own beliefs, nothing that really matches mainstream religions, but there are influences (Buddism and Wicca/pagan being big ones). Though, tbh, I don't really 'practice' it: I'm more 'meh' over the whole thing (though my mental issues likely have a hand in that).

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if my adversion to scripture is due to me truly feeling like most scripture has been too 'corrupted' by man and thus not worthy of paying attention to?

I can actually agree with that.

 

I hate how it's been changed so much from it's original meaning that I can't stand any. If I had to choose one to practice or experiment with it would be Wicca. I have a friend in it and it seems more peaceful to me than anything.

[philpot123]

Which still doesn't make any sense to me, with all the picky-choosey stuff, and the fact that the covenant bat Sinai is said to be eternal, and the fact that Jesus said explicitly that he did not come to abolish the law -- and I don't see how you know, New Year's can be "fulfilled" so it's no longer necessary, or seen as bondage, but oh well.

 

Thank you for answering my question.

Well, it's not picky-choosy if you make this distinction between the moral bits and the ceremonial. The things that have been morally wrong are still morally wrong, the ceremonial regulations is no longer binding.

 

Again, I'll have to get some outside opinions on the relationship between the New/Old Covenant stuff in light of the "eternal" language. I still haven't had a chance to talk to anyone about it. I'm certainly no tome of theological insight, and I would love to have a satisfying answer to this just as much as you would. I understand the difficulty you have with my beliefs from your position, as I hope you understand mine. I've got this base assumption that both the OT and the New are inspired by God, so I'm biased towards the assumption that there's some reasonable explanation for the relationship between the two. I will continue to look into it and get back to you as soon as I have an answer that I find satisfying.

[HeatherMarie]

*peeks in*

 

Um.... I know this thread has been pretty active in the past, which is why I've thought to seek opinions here.

 

My mom's church has decided to set up a prayer-chain for me, tomorrow. This was all decided without my input (barely with my knowledge). I know that they think of me as "part of the church" by extension because of my mom, and because I sometimes accompany her to BBQs and non-religious gatherings they have.

 

But the Pastor and Pastora (? Pastor's wife) both know that I don't agree with some of the priorities of the church, and they know that I'm uncomfortable being present during sermons.

 

So... am I wrong for feeling really really weird about this whole prayer-chain thing? I *am* grateful that so many people care about me and want me to get better, but... I'm not a member of this church. I believe the *opposite* of what they believe, in many instances. And to be completely honest, this sort of feels like "well, if she won't let God help her, we'll just go to God for her anyways!" which... feels kind of rude.

 

I'm not going to say anything, I don't want to start anything, but... am I wrong to feel this uncomfortable about it?

[Syaoransbear]

*peeks in*

 

Um.... I know this thread has been pretty active in the past, which is why I've thought to seek opinions here.

 

My mom's church has decided to set up a prayer-chain for me, tomorrow. This was all decided without my input (barely with my knowledge). I know that they think of me as "part of the church" by extension because of my mom, and because I sometimes accompany her to BBQs and non-religious gatherings they have.

 

But the Pastor and Pastora (? Pastor's wife) both know that I don't agree with some of the priorities of the church, and they know that I'm uncomfortable being present during sermons.

 

So... am I wrong for feeling really really weird about this whole prayer-chain thing? I *am* grateful that so many people care about me and want me to get better, but... I'm not a member of this church. I believe the *opposite* of what they believe, in many instances. And to be completely honest, this sort of feels like "well, if she won't let God help her, we'll just go to God for her anyways!" which... feels kind of rude.

 

I'm not going to say anything, I don't want to start anything, but... am I wrong to feel this uncomfortable about it?

I definitely understand what you mean, and it is very rude. I wonder how they would feel if you said you were going to start a prayer chain praying to Satan for them?

[Awdz]

*peeks in*

 

Um.... I know this thread has been pretty active in the past, which is why I've thought to seek opinions here.

 

My mom's church has decided to set up a prayer-chain for me, tomorrow. This was all decided without my input (barely with my knowledge). I know that they think of me as "part of the church" by extension because of my mom, and because I sometimes accompany her to BBQs and non-religious gatherings they have.

 

But the Pastor and Pastora (? Pastor's wife) both know that I don't agree with some of the priorities of the church, and they know that I'm uncomfortable being present during sermons.

 

So... am I wrong for feeling really really weird about this whole prayer-chain thing? I *am* grateful that so many people care about me and want me to get better, but... I'm not a member of this church. I believe the *opposite* of what they believe, in many instances. And to be completely honest, this sort of feels like "well, if she won't let God help her, we'll just go to God for her anyways!" which... feels kind of rude.

 

I'm not going to say anything, I don't want to start anything, but... am I wrong to feel this uncomfortable about it?

If you told them you do not want the prayer chain about you and they still do it, they are not respecting your opinion. They may instead be respecting your mother's opinion/emotions; it sounds like they are much closer to her than to you.

 

Often church members feel saddened by another's problems, do not know how/do not have resources to help the other better, but need to feel like they are doing something. The prayer chain is one way they can feel consolation - do you feel so uncomfortable that it is more appropriate to take their comfort away from them? The answer may be yes or no; it is for you to figure out based on your situation.

 

One final consideration: is it uncomfortable simply because of the beliefs expressed, or in part because a group is holding you up as being imperfect? I know I feel embarrassed/uncomfortable when someone mentions my imperfections.

 

I hope all works out for the best for all involved, especially you. :-)

Edited November 24, 2012 by Awdz Bodkins

[Kojote]

I'm an Atheist. c:

[TikindiDragon]

*peeks in*

 

Um.... I know this thread has been pretty active in the past, which is why I've thought to seek opinions here.

 

My mom's church has decided to set up a prayer-chain for me, tomorrow. This was all decided without my input (barely with my knowledge). I know that they think of me as "part of the church" by extension because of my mom, and because I sometimes accompany her to BBQs and non-religious gatherings they have.

 

But the Pastor and Pastora (? Pastor's wife) both know that I don't agree with some of the priorities of the church, and they know that I'm uncomfortable being present during sermons.

 

So... am I wrong for feeling really really weird about this whole prayer-chain thing? I *am* grateful that so many people care about me and want me to get better, but... I'm not a member of this church. I believe the *opposite* of what they believe, in many instances. And to be completely honest, this sort of feels like "well, if she won't let God help her, we'll just go to God for her anyways!" which... feels kind of rude.

 

I'm not going to say anything, I don't want to start anything, but... am I wrong to feel this uncomfortable about it?

Your feeling are never wrong. I just want to get that out in the open now.

 

That said - wether or not you ought to mention it to them does kinda depend on *why* they are praying for you. If it's because you are sick (or because there's something else non-faith related going on that's bad) then they're probably doing it out of an honest wish to see you better. In that case... you should probably just try to ignore it. Especially if you don't actually believe, what harm can it do? It's a bit like someone else saying "I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.". *you* might not think it works, but it's a way of showing they care.

If, on the other hand, they're praying for you to 'return to the church', or change your mind on some theological point, then, yes, that's a little rude and something you should probably confront your Mum (or the Pastor if you talk to him?) over.

 

What it kind of boild down to is - are they disrespecting your considered opinions, or do they just want to see you well and are trying to help the only way they know how.

[HeatherMarie]

I guess that's true. From what I can gather the prayer-chain is in response to the problems I've been having with my Bipolar/anxiety. So yeah, if it's about them wanting me to get better, I guess I can deal with that.

 

One final consideration: is it uncomfortable simply because of the beliefs expressed, or in part because a group is holding you up as being imperfect? I know I feel embarrassed/uncomfortable when someone mentions my imperfections.

 

Meh, I'm pretty level-headed about my imperfections. I know I have them, I know who knows about them and who doesn't, and they don't usually bother me. I don't think of my Bipolar as me being "imperfect", just as another hurdle to jump through (although, it did piss me off when a church member mentioned that the best way to deal with mental problems is to stop all medication and just pray..... Yeah, stopping all medication lands me in the hospital. Not gonna happen.)

[Awdz]

(although, it did piss me off when a church member mentioned that the best way to deal with mental problems is to stop all medication and just pray..... Yeah, stopping all medication lands me in the hospital. Not gonna happen.)

Very glad you have more sense than that person does, about your meds!

[TikindiDragon]

Popping this in here as it's a little off the topic of Politics...

 

So I went and had a read of the Patrick Henry College website. It was quite intrigued by their statement of faith, which takes an explicitly protestant position for an organisation claiming no denominational bias. I note especially that when they say "the Bible in it's entirety." they then go on to list this as "All 66 books" (emphasis mine). There are books of the Bible, known as the Apocrypha, which are accepted by some (noteably: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican) but not all Christian denominations - by giving a specific number of books of the Bible the College is stating that it does not accept the Apocrypha - and by extention may not be welcoming to the faith of those that do.

 

I do wonder why, as a statement of faith, they felt they needed more than the Nicene Creed, which (to the best of my knowledge anyway) was generally accepted as the 'touchstone' of Christain Faith.

[philpot123]

Popping this in here as it's a little off the topic of Politics...

 

So I went and had a read of the Patrick Henry College website. It was quite intrigued by their statement of faith, which takes an explicitly protestant position for an organisation claiming no denominational bias. I note especially that when they say "the Bible in it's entirety." they then go on to list this as "All 66 books" (emphasis mine). There are books of the Bible, known as the Apocrypha, which are accepted by some (noteably: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican) but not all Christian denominations - by giving a specific number of books of the Bible the College is stating that it does not accept the Apocrypha - and by extention may not be welcoming to the faith of those that do.

 

I do wonder why, as a statement of faith, they felt they needed more than the Nicene Creed, which (to the best of my knowledge anyway) was generally accepted as the 'touchstone' of Christain Faith.

Well, even without the part about the Bible itself, there there is another tenant of their statement of faith that would exclude those of a Roman Catholic (and others?) background, by claiming that salvation comes to man by grace alone through faith alone.

 

While PHC is decisively non-denominational, they are explicitly protestant. I was told there is a Roman Catholic on staff, but you're right, it does exclude students of several denominations, inclusive of any who believe the Apocrypha to be authoritative. I suppose they reasoned that the doctrinal differences between the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Anglican church, and protestant denominations were so great that they wanted to fence their membership. It would certainly difficult to teach Theology of the Bible classes if the Apocrypha was introduced as an alternative or supplementary authority, because then the doctrines taught in scripture would be modified. In the same way that a Reformed Systematic Theology text will begin with the assumption that the 66 books of the "Holy Bible" are the ONLY source of doctrine, PHC's faith statement rejects the Apocrypha as a source of doctrine because of the faith system that will be taught there. The most basic question that must be asked of a faith based group is what they base their beliefs and doctrines on, and PHC has decided to base its doctrines entirely on the 66 books of the Bible, excluding the Apocrypha.

[Mew101]

I was raised some blend of Christain, my mom being a pretty non-religious Catholic and my dad being a Lutheran from a very religious family. We were raised not very religiously Christain, and I probably didn't go to Church more than five times.

 

It has been a little more than two years since I decided I was agnostic. I personally believe that there is evidence for both, but a lot is still unanswered and I don't feel there is really a way to prove it. until you die lol. Personally, I wish I did believe in something after death, and that somene is watching out for me, but I can't sincerely say that I can believe in those things. However, I still haven't "come out" to my parents. I'd tell my mother, but she has made comments about how she doesn't understand how a young person can have strong belief's in such a different relgion (like athiesm, for example)

 

A year ago, I told my group of friends because I expected them to be more accepting of my different faith. Now, due to many other issues, I am not friends with those girls anymore, but their intolerant responses still infuriate me. Between maybe four or five people, there were comments (and some when they thought I wasn't listening) on the topic of religion like : "Why don't you believe in God? The Bible is so amazing", "I would never marry a man with a different religion; it would be way to hard on my children", "I'm glad I actually believe in something", and "Maybe gay people should have their genders changed to fit in with the Bible". One girl had the nerve to tell me that I have to change my religion or I wont go to heaven. Again, I have little to no knowlege of Christianity, but I suppose I always believed that if God was so amazing and morally just, he would accept any "good" people into heaven, regardless of faith.

 

I fortunately have joined a new group of friends who ar far more accepting that the previous one, but now I have issues with athiest people being mean to my Christian friends, calling them dumb for believing in God. It never ends, does it?

 

Sorry for the long backsory ^^; I certaintly hope I didn't offend anyone. *flees to lurking corner*

Edited November 28, 2012 by Mew101

[TikindiDragon]

Well, even without the part about the Bible itself, there there is another tenant of their statement of faith that would exclude those of a Roman Catholic (and others?) background, by claiming that salvation comes to man by grace alone through faith alone.

 

While PHC is decisively non-denominational, they are explicitly protestant. I was told there is a Roman Catholic on staff, but you're right, it does exclude students of several denominations, inclusive of any who believe the Apocrypha to be authoritative. I suppose they reasoned that the doctrinal differences between the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Anglican church, and protestant denominations were so great that they wanted to fence their membership. It would certainly difficult to teach Theology of the Bible classes if the Apocrypha was introduced as an alternative or supplementary authority, because then the doctrines taught in scripture would be modified. In the same way that a Reformed Systematic Theology text will begin with the assumption that the 66 books of the "Holy Bible" are the ONLY source of doctrine, PHC's faith statement rejects the Apocrypha as a source of doctrine because of the faith system that will be taught there. The most basic question that must be asked of a faith based group is what they base their beliefs and doctrines on, and PHC has decided to base its doctrines entirely on the 66 books of the Bible, excluding the Apocrypha.

I'd noticed the bit about salvation coming as a grace by faith alone - which was another of my reasons for questioning their 'non-denominational' stance. From my own point of view it might have been nice if they'd expressed somewhere that they were explicitly Reform Protestant, as I found that was only clear if one read the Statement of Faith.

 

Personally I find it rather sad that there are few attempts at reconciliation between the 'two' (Protestant and Orthodox) branches of Christianity. I'm especially saddened by the position of some in either branch that the 'other' is not Christian at all (I've noted this more commonly among lay-Protestants than I have in lay-Catholics. Making no mention of official Church bodies). Partly because I find myself in an almost middle-ground position. Being Anglican far more of our traditions are shared with the Catholics, yet we're technicaly Protestant. I find Anglicanism is both accepted and not accepted by Catholic and Protestant alike.

[demonicvampiregirl]

(although, it did piss me off when a church member mentioned that the best way to deal with mental problems is to stop all medication and just pray..... Yeah, stopping all medication lands me in the hospital. Not gonna happen.)

I feel sorry you are near that person. If a person said that to my dad who goes through a lot of pain due to his leg I'd probably smack them over the head with his cane and tell them to get a good long look at the hole in his leg. (I know it's not the same but it does deal with medication)

 

I see how you are uncomfortable with it. I don't believe in any form of religion anymore even though Wicca does get my interest at times as it deals with nature more than anything (at least the parts I seen). I'd be forced into putting up with it even at 21.

 

My mother seen I had shared a purple pentagram image on my Facebook and asked "You just shared that because you like how it looks right?" which got me to reply, "Yes, but by law I have all rights to choose any religion I so I can choose Wicca" to which she replied "I can throw you out of this house".

 

Such a loving and accepting Christian ain't she? Apparently it is freedom for HER religion and not any other.

 

So yeah even if I tried to choose a religion such as that I would never be allowed to because I'd be kicked out of this house. I do have Grandparents that live near by and I hope if it ever comes to that and I explain it all to them that they can either take me in and accept it or they can convince my mom how ignorant she is of other religions. If all else fails though I could probably move in with a friend of mine but that's a long long stretch.

[philpot123]

I'd noticed the bit about salvation coming as a grace by faith alone - which was another of my reasons for questioning their 'non-denominational' stance. From my own point of view it might have been nice if they'd expressed somewhere that they were explicitly Reform Protestant, as I found that was only clear if one read the Statement of Faith.

 

Personally I find it rather sad that there are few attempts at reconciliation between the 'two' (Protestant and Orthodox) branches of Christianity. I'm especially saddened by the position of some in either branch that the 'other' is not Christian at all (I've noted this more commonly among lay-Protestants than I have in lay-Catholics. Making no mention of official Church bodies). Partly because I find myself in an almost middle-ground position. Being Anglican far more of our traditions are shared with the Catholics, yet we're technicaly Protestant. I find Anglicanism is both accepted and not accepted by Catholic and Protestant alike.

Right, perhaps that should be more clear. I suppose they make an assumption that others will assume it to be so, especially considering the large volume of the Southern Baptist "brand" of Christianity in our region, and the relatively small Orthodox population.

 

 

I'm not well-versed on the doctrines of Anglicanism. I will say that among protestants, especially in the Reformed theological tradition I closely identify with, the theological divisions between our beliefs and the beliefs of the Catholic church were drastic enough to warrant separation during the Reformation, and if anything have become more drastic now. I understand wanting to be more amicable towards each other, but it's rather hard to come to a mutual understanding with a church that has declared me anathema for my beliefs, and I imagine it's rather hard for Catholics to have fellowship with protestants when they know that most protestants think poorly of doctrines of works, praying to saints, papal authority, doctrine from tradition, etc.

 

 

Would you care to lay out some of the base doctrines of Anglicanism? I'd be interested to hear

Edited November 28, 2012 by philpot123

[ShinyTomato]

praying to saints

 

I often wondered WHY they have such a negative view of asking the saints to pray for someone, when protestants are usually the ones making prayer circles.

 

I mean, they have Scriptural basis -- in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering others' prayers to G-d as bowls of incense, and thus, can hear human prayers and intercede for humans to G-d.

 

Paul over and over asks people to pray for him, and says that he'll pray for others. No one is claiming to be a mediator between G-d and man, because in Christian theology, only Jesus is man and god, bridging some gap Christians believe was necessary to bridge. They're in no way claiming the saints can or would bridge this gap, as they're only allowed at the throne, through Jesus in Christianity.

[philpot123]

I often wondered WHY they have such a negative view of asking the saints to pray for someone, when protestants are usually the ones making prayer circles.

 

I mean, they have Scriptural basis -- in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering others' prayers to G-d as bowls of incense, and thus, can hear human prayers and intercede for humans to G-d.

 

Paul over and over asks people to pray for him, and says that he'll pray for others. No one is claiming to be a mediator between G-d and man, because in Christian theology,  only Jesus is man and god, bridging some gap Christians believe was necessary to bridge. They're in no way claiming the saints can or would bridge this gap, as they're only allowed at the throne, through Jesus in Christianity.

When Jesus told His followers how to pray, it was to the Father, in the name of the Son. Elsewhere, the Bible says that when we lack words, the Holy Spirit intercedes, not the saints.

 

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

(Romans 8:26 ESV)

 

Most protestants view the glorification of the images and persons of the saints, and specifically directing prayers TO them as a form of idolatry that doesn't have a scriptural basis. I'm not quite sure of the connection to praying TO saints and Revelation 5:8...

 

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

(Revelation 5:8 ESV)

 

Perhaps you are referring to an alternative translation, but I do not see that as an indication of offering prayers TO saints. First, the "four living creatures" are held to be angelic beings, based on their descriptions in Revelations 4. They carry bowls full of the prayers of the saints before the throne of God. Even if this passage could be taken entirely literally (doubtful, given the nature of the book of prophecy), I still see no indication of prayers being offered up to saints, as opposed to praying to God Himself. Praying FOR someone and praying to a saint are a little different, in my opinion.

 

Basically it goes back to the solas of the Reformation, one of the five being sola scriptura, doctrine that is determined from scripture alone. Jesus told us to pray to God in His name, and did not tell us to pray to bygone saints, therefore I can't accept it as a legitimate point of doctrine. Thus, we argue

Edited November 28, 2012 by philpot123

[ShinyTomato]

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

 

Yes, but the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, not Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is indwelt in all believers, correct? That would include those who have passed on.

 

When Jesus told His followers how to pray, it was to the Father, in the name of the Son. Elsewhere, the Bible says that when we lack words, the Holy Spirit intercedes, not the saints.

 

Jesus also never says to pray to him, through him, yes or in his name, but never to him. No one complains about that.

 

m not quite sure of the connection to praying TO saints and Revelation 5:8...

 

καὶ ὅτε ἔλαβεν τὸ βιβλίον τὰ τέσσαρα ζῷα καὶ οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι ἔπεσαν ἐνώπιον τοῦ ἀρνίου ἔχοντες ἕκαστος κιθάραν καὶ φιάλας χρυσᾶς γεμούσας θυμιαμάτων, αἵ εἰσιν αἱ προσευχαὶ τῶν ἁγίων,

 

And another messenger did come, and he stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and there was given to him much perfume, that of all prayers of all the saints to intercede upon the golden altar that is before the throne.

 

 

Praying FOR someone and praying to a saint are a little different, in my opinion.

 

Why? What's the difference if, for example, I were to ask my brother to pray for me, and I were to pray and ask St. Catherine of Siena to pray for me, because I am undergoing some of the same struggles she did in life?

 

Also Revelation 8: 3-4

 

Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the saints went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Edited November 28, 2012 by ShinyTomato