Religion

[TikindiDragon]

Also, how do you explain the direct contradictions in the Bible? On the one hand, it says "Thou shalt not kill," yet on the other hand, it calls for blasphemers, murderers, and adulterers to be put to death. So it says not to kill but then it says to kill, so how does that make sense? Anyone helping to kill the criminal in question would then himself be a killer and therefore should also be put to death, no? The Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless thou art an executioner" after all.

You've answered that with your own comments on translation. Several versions translate that as "Thou shalt do no murder." which is a distinctly different thing from "Thou shalt not kill.".

[PointOfOrigin]

Also, how do you explain the direct contradictions in the Bible? On the one hand, it says "Thou shalt not kill," yet on the other hand, it calls for blasphemers, murderers, and adulterers to be put to death. So it says not to kill but then it says to kill, so how does that make sense? Anyone helping to kill the criminal in question would then himself be a killer and therefore should also be put to death, no? The Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless thou art an executioner" after all.

And in addition to Tikindi's answear, most people think that the old testament doesn't count anymore (except that sometimes it does. And let's not forget that Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish old laws).

 

On the whole, I don't trust the bible. With the exception of the old testament, most of the books were written decades after Jesus was alive, and the final list of books included came into being in 16th century. Take also into consideration translation fails, and you get the books that was so much messed with that there is no way for everything in there to be true. Add to that people explaining everything unknown with "God did it!" and you get a big jumble of everything.

[St. Jimmy]

most people think that the old testament doesn't count anymore (except that sometimes it does.

Yet another thing I don't understand about Christianity. Why does it only count sometimes (usually when it's convenient for the person)? How do they decide which laws are to be followed and which ones aren't?

[Riverwillows]

They definitely are born gay. But if you read the bible, there were fallen angels that bred with the females. Fallen angels are demons. Ever heard of the nephilim? The sin is in our genes. Human DNA was mixed with fallen angel or 'demon' DNA.

 

When I was growing up (LOOOOONG time ago, lol) it was commonly postulated that blacks were the offspring of Cain, thus the dark skin was "The Mark".

 

This as we now know, is very wrong thinking. But to say that gays have "demon" DNA, and are from the "documented" mating of Nephlim with humans, is no different, really.

[catstaff]

You've answered that with your own comments on translation. Several versions translate that as "Thou shalt do no murder." which is a distinctly different thing from "Thou shalt not kill.".

Okay, just because I haven't personally seen a translation saying "Thou shalt do no murder," doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

But I feel my point would still stand, because murder is the intentional taking of a person's life, and execution is the intentional taking of a person's life. A justified taking of life, perhaps, but still the intentional taking of life.

[luckynicole659]

When I was growing up (LOOOOONG time ago, lol) it was commonly postulated that blacks were the offspring of Cain, thus the dark skin was "The Mark".

 

This as we now know, is very wrong thinking. But to say that gays have "demon" DNA, and are from the "documented" mating of Nephlim with humans, is no different, really.

I never said it was just gays. It was all of humans.

 

Do you ever do bad things, or like doing bad things? Ever get off on it?

 

Why do you think that is? My bible explains it.

 

We are all 'tainted' so to speak. We all have sin in us. Catholics believe we are born with original sin and I agree with them.

 

I mean what do people think demons are? What do you think the devil is? Hes the master of sin. A deceiver. And so are demons. Sin is everywhere and everyone does it. And anybody who says they don't is a liar. The reason Jesus came here was for sins of mankind, not for perfect people. There are no perfect people. Everyone has fallen short of Gods glory. We have all done bad things, we're all sinners. Luckily, we can be forgiven.

[Syaoransbear]

We have all done bad things, we're all sinners. Luckily, we can be forgiven.

I never really understood this. So couldn't heaven be filled with a bunch of rapists and murderers who simply asked for forgiveness?

[TikindiDragon]

I never really understood this. So couldn't heaven be filled with a bunch of rapists and murderers who simply asked for forgiveness?

If they honestly, truly, regretted and repented of their sins then yes. Christ didn't come into the world to call the righteous, he came to call sinners to repentance. What kind of repentance is it if you only accept certain people? God isn't like that. *Anyone*, regardless of what they may have done, can be forgiven if they truly repent.

 

It's not as simple as just asking, though. There has to be a truly contrite heart and a desire to change.

[Riverwillows]

See, I can't wrap my head around that. For example, I know very well a woman who was molested when she was 4, by her 13 year old brother. It went on for 3 years, and he would share her with his friends. She finally put a stop to it at 7, by refusing to go with him. But it left her scarred. They were Catholic. When she was going for her First Communion and Confessions, she was told to confess that she had "played nasty" with her brother.

 

She is now in her late 40's, and even tho she has been married and has kids, has never been able to 'achieve' in sex, and has a deep seated distrust of men. This is what her brother and his friends did to her.

 

Now, you are saying that if her brother is now deeply and truely sorry, he will reap the benefits of Heaven, even tho he ruined a very precious part of a little girl's life forever. To me, this is just wrong. It's good that he would be sorry, but that kind of crime is unforgivable, and is a straight ticket to hell in my book.

 

But most organized religions won't see it that way. Which is why I myself refuse to belong to any.

[TikindiDragon]

See, I can't wrap my head around that. For example, I know very well a woman who was molested when she was 4, by her 13 year old brother. It went on for 3 years, and he would share her with his friends. She finally put a stop to it at 7, by refusing to go with him. But it left her scarred. They were Catholic. When she was going for her First Communion and Confessions, she was told to confess that she had "played nasty" with her brother.

 

She is now in her late 40's, and even tho she has been married and has kids, has never been able to 'achieve' in sex, and has a deep seated distrust of men. This is what her brother and his friends did to her.

 

Now, you are saying that if her brother is now deeply and truely sorry, he will reap the benefits of Heaven, even tho he ruined a very precious part of a little girl's life forever. To me, this is just wrong. It's good that he would be sorry, but that kind of crime is unforgivable, and is a straight ticket to hell in my book.

 

But most organized religions won't see it that way. Which is why I myself refuse to belong to any.

See, I'd say there is a flip side of the coin to that. Please bear in mind that I am in no way excusing what the boy did - it was deeply, deeply wrong. But. Should a person be condemned for all eternity for a single act in their lives that they truly regret and are deeply sorrowful about?

 

To a certain extent, on a personal level, I actually couldn't live with myself if I thought that was the case.

 

There are plenty of people that do think the way you do, though. It's probably the origin of the phrase - to err is human, to forgive divine.

 

Edit to add: I will also observe that things like this are why following the path of Christ is not an easy thing to do. Because he does call upon us to love the unloveable, forgive the unforgiveable, and bear the unbearable. Not an easy path to walk at all.

Edited February 1, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[Syaoransbear]

See, I'd say there is a flip side of the coin to that. Please bear in mind that I am in no way excusing what the boy did - it was deeply, deeply wrong. But. Should a person be condemned for all eternity for a single act in their lives that they truly regret and are deeply sorrowful about?

 

To a certain extent, on a personal level, I actually couldn't live with myself if I thought that was the case.

 

There are plenty of people that do think the way you do, though. It's probably the origin of the phrase - to err is human, to forgive divine.

 

Edit to add: I will also observe that things like this are why following the path of Christ is not an easy thing to do. Because he does call upon us to love the unloveable, forgive the unforgiveable, and bear the unbearable. Not an easy path to walk at all.

But it is sorta like that. Lets say you stole a car, get in an accident and die, and you aren't given any chance to ever reflect on what you did and feel remorseful. Isn't it impossible to redeem yourself once you are in hell and no amount of regret and remorse you feel over the situation will help you?

Edited February 1, 2013 by Syaoransbear

[The Evil Doer]

See, I can't wrap my head around that. For example, I know very well a woman who was molested when she was 4, by her 13 year old brother. It went on for 3 years, and he would share her with his friends. She finally put a stop to it at 7, by refusing to go with him. But it left her scarred. They were Catholic. When she was going for her First Communion and Confessions, she was told to confess that she had "played nasty" with her brother.

 

She is now in her late 40's, and even tho she has been married and has kids, has never been able to 'achieve' in sex, and has a deep seated distrust of men. This is what her brother and his friends did to her.

 

Now, you are saying that if her brother is now deeply and truely sorry, he will reap the benefits of Heaven, even tho he ruined a very precious part of a little girl's life forever. To me, this is just wrong. It's good that he would be sorry, but that kind of crime is unforgivable, and is a straight ticket to hell in my book.

 

But most organized religions won't see it that way. Which is why I myself refuse to belong to any.

Excuse my bluntness but to me it seems like you simply dont believe in god hence are looking for rational/logical excuses to support your stance/non-belief...

 

Whether one believes or doesnt is a choice, choice that doesnt require justification of any sort, faith in god or in a non existance of god is still faith of a sort and faith is not logical, so either you swing one way or another you're most certainly right... at least regarding your own path, at least at this specific moment,,,,

[Riverwillows]

Bottom line is, why should he reap the benefit of a divine afterlife, after a pretty decent life (which he has), while my friend suffers from his actions for the rest of her earthly life?

 

There has to be a permanent consequence to actions that inflict permanent damage. He was 13, way over the "age of understanding" which most religions say is 7. He knew what he did. He wanted to do it. He did it. Forever scarred a little girl, for his own physical pleasure, so that she will never be able to enjoy that which should be her birthright.

 

No, there is no way that can be forgivable. Or what is the purpose of a hell, then? I'm sure many are regretful and sorry on their deathbeds. Genuinely so. But it doesn't change what they did to others. And hindsight is always 20/20.

 

Edit: And I believe in God. I am deeply spiritual. I just don't believe in man-made, organized religions, I think they do more harm than good personally.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Riverwillows

[Queen Firebreath]

As an inactive (former?) Mormon, I would be absolutely fascinated if they did find evidence of some of the stuff! I was active in highschool, but never took seminary and never thought to ask the good questions like that ^^'

Seminary is a good class. Soon I'll be going to Institute. I can say I've learned more from Seminary in 4 years than I have in 18 years of being a member.

 

I'm also interested in the historical evidence. Its sad that sometimes we can't find answers to our questions from teachers or scripture. maybe more people would be willing to accept the BoM if they found more physical evidence.

[The Evil Doer]

Edit: And I believe in God. I am deeply spiritual. I just don't believe in man-made, organized religions, I think they do more harm than good personally.

Then it sounds like one vengeful god I must say....

 

But as you said - "There has to be a permanent consequence to actions"... that is the basic coping mechanism of us humans - there must be fairness for life to make any sense...

Edited February 1, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[Riverwillows]

Then it sounds like one vengeful god I must say....

 

But as you said - "There has to be a permanent consequence to actions"... that is the basic coping mechanism of us humans - there must be fairness for life to make any sense... 

No.....MY God is all about love.

 

Think of it this way: If you were a father, and you had a daughter you adored, and someone raped/molested her, and you knew who......what would YOU do?? Be honest now.

 

 

Edit: Anyway, I believe I made my point. I'm done.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Riverwillows

[The Evil Doer]

No.....MY God is all about love.

 

Think of it this way: If you were a father, and you had a daughter you adored, and someone raped/molested her, and you knew who......what would YOU do?? Be honest now.

Your god can't be all about love if it's one strike and you're out.... for all eternity

 

Regarding the second part its a no brainer to me, I fully support death penalty for child rapists/serial killers etc... execution, no trial regardless of whose daughter it is....

Edited February 1, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[KageSora]

It would be the right thing to do, but It's sad because everyone, no matter who you are, we all long for physical romantic relationships.

Wrong!

 

We asexuals generally don't long for physical romantic relationships.

 

There are genuinely some people who have no interest in sex at all, and don't need it or long for it.

[athania]

who cares if god "disproves of it"

 

if gays are sinning, which they're not, why should religious people care? it's not affecting them

I care.

 

 

This is exactly why I said I wouldn't stop them or interfere, I just don't support their actions. Read more carefully next time before attacking please. And to say that they are not sinning is your opinion, not fact.

 

Also: This is exactly why I was hesitant of posting on this thread, because of people like you that instead of discussing shove their opinions in as fact and say all else is wrong.

Edited February 2, 2013 by athania

[TikindiDragon]

Your god can't be all about love if it's one strike and you're out.... for all eternity

^ This, pretty much.

 

Or does your God only love the worthy, and not love everyone else? Is your God not in the position of the parents of the children you have spoken of? Do you really think your friend's mother ever stopped loving her son, regardless of what he did? Why should God be any different?

[PointOfOrigin]

If I may add another question. Why can the sinners like that guy be forgiven, while other people automatically go to hell just because they belonged to another religion?

[TikindiDragon]

If I may add another question. Why can the sinners like that guy be forgiven, while other people automatically go to hell just because they belonged to another religion?

Personally I don't think they do. I don't believe there's any automatic 'hell ticket'. To me it's all about what's in your heart on the day of judgement.

[Shienvien]

One of the most bothersome things in plenty of religious people has exactly been that - that if you do not believe in god, you'll go to hell, no matter how good you are, no matter what you do during your life.

 

About hell... In at least one version, according to the Bible (not sure whether that bit varies depending on the version of Bible?), hell as such does not exist at all. In the end, the world will be destroyed in fire, and all those not worthy of life in heaven will be purged, and the heavenly kingdom would arrive to those who are worthy... But no eternal existence in hell. The 'bad people' just die. Likewise, the good people do not immediately go to heaven, but rather are resurrected before the selection is made on the final day of judgment.

 

Hell, then, was a much more recent invention to scare peasants with.

[Awdz]

Your god can't be all about love if it's one strike and you're out.... for all eternity

But that's the whole point of Jesus coming to earth - to show that we DO have chances to repent, to change for the better. We may never be able to undo the bad that was done, but we can prevent it from happening again and work toward good instead. It is the ones who refuse to repent all the way up to judgement day and continue with evil throughout their lives that are "out".

 

If I may add another question. Why can the sinners like that guy be forgiven, while other people automatically go to hell just because they belonged to another religion?

I do not assume folks are "out" just because they belonged to another religion. I believe God loves everyone and wants a loving relationship with them, individual to them like our relationships with one another: no two are exactly the same, and we know people in different venues and capacities. If someone grows to love God through another religion, that should be no worse than folks being friends because they play bingo or go bowling together as opposed to trading dragon-shaped pixels in an online game.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Awdz Bodkins

[PointOfOrigin]

One of the most bothersome things in plenty of religious people has exactly been that - that if you do not believe in god, you'll go to hell, no matter how good you are, no matter what you do during your life.

 

About hell... In at least one version, according to the Bible (not sure whether that bit varies depending on the version of Bible?), hell as such does not exist at all. In the end, the world will be destroyed in fire, and all those not worthy of life in heaven will be purged, and the heavenly kingdom would arrive to those who are worthy... But no eternal existence in hell. The 'bad people' just die. Likewise, the good people do not immediately go to heaven, but rather are resurrected before the selection is made on the final day of judgment.

Exactly. And while a number of people do not believe it (that was one of the reasons why i drifted away from religion), you can't deny that a big number of people believe that. It's why they go around trying to convert people, bringing around "happy news", trying to scare people with hell.

 

I'm sure it's described that way in Revelation.