Sexism

[Princess Artemis]

I'm assuming they dislike being associated with that term because many feminists are hypocritical and use hyperbole. For example, on CBS's "The Talk", all those women laughed heartily at a woman who drugged her husband and sliced his [beep] off because of an impending divorce. Sharon Osbourne called it "quite fabulous" and "hysterical". It's only sexist if a man does it.

Does "The Talk" claim to be feminist? I just looked a bit and found that no, it does not. It claims to be about women's topic's and "through the eyes of mothers", which, as one can plainly see, do not contain the word "feminist".

 

Just because something claims to be from a woman's point of view doesn't mean it is from a specifically feminist point of view. Anyone who bases their opinion of feminism on a talk show that isn't even attempting to represent feminism is misinformed at the very least.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Obscure_Trash]

Do you know of any good antidote sites? Share maybe if you do?

Girls With Slingshots and Abstruse Goose keep me pretty happy. If I'm really down I go read In My Pants (Harry Potter fanfic found on fanfic.net, which I won't be linking for, unsurprisingly, innuendo). I also have a few ace blogs that distract me. Among these asexy beast is one of my favorites. Mylifeisaverage is also great for cheering up most of the time (or used to be, haven't actually gone on it for a while).

[Alpha1]

That's absolutely not feminist -- you clearly recognize it's sexist and degrading behavior, and any real feminist would as well. Also, I would hardly think of "The Talk" as feminist programming. I don't think any of those women are self-professed as active in the feminist community.

 

Does "The Talk" claim to be feminist? I just looked a bit and found that no, it does not. It claims to be about women's topic's and "through the eyes of mothers", which, as one can plainly see, do not contain the word "feminist".

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/arts/tel...ml?pagewanted=1

 

"And, accordingly, it’s easy to look at the two shows as a clash between two stages of feminism."

 

Perception. Nonetheless, I would be surprised if they didn't claim they were feminists.

 

I'll stick with the from-women-to-women argument. You said they discuss women topics, after all.

 

For example, roughly a month before that woman mutilated her husband, Sharon Osborne said she'd cut Arnie's manhood off and put it in the garbage disposal. Coincidence? *shrugs* She could have possibly created a militant feminist.

 

Just because something claims to be from a woman's point of view doesn't mean it is from a specifically feminist point of view. Anyone who bases their opinion of feminism on a talk show that isn't even attempting to represent feminism is misinformed at the very least.

 

A feminist could "want equality", but what does their actions suggest? You don't have to dish out the no true Scotsman argument.

 

But I wish people wouldn't avoid the word; the point is, if you a) recognize that women's social, political, and economic status is generally lower than men's and has been in pretty much all of human memory, and  think that status quo is unfair, and want to bring women up to the same level as men, then c) you are a feminist. If you don't believe the first point, or don't agree with the second, then you're not. There's no two ways about it.

 

I could go into it more, but I'll just point out a few things.

 

Social?

 

Many people use sexism as an excuse; their problems are more personal.

 

 

Good video on success

 

Economics?

 

In the U.S. at least, men and women get similar pay. Feminists routinely cite figures like 75% when that's obviously off the mark by a lot. The military doesn't have pay discrimination. School districts don't. The list goes on and on.

 

Politics?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/us-president-...-212915123.html

 

Yuck!

Edited February 22, 2012 by Alpha1

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't understand what you're trying to say at all.

 

A feminist is one whom supports gender equality. If they do not support gender equality, they are not feminists. If the point (or one of the goals) of the show isn't to promote gender equality/talk about gender equality, it's not a feminist show. As far as I can tell, the show is to simply talk about things from "a woman's perspective."

 

Being a woman does not make one a feminist, just as being a man does not make one a misogynist.

 

I can perceive a mustache as pompous, but that doesn't mean it is.

(I don't, just the first thing that popped into my head when talking of perception.)

[Alpha1]

A feminist is one whom supports gender equality. If they do not support gender equality, they are not feminists. If the point (or one of the goals) of the show isn't to promote gender equality/talk about gender equality, it's not a feminist show. As far as I can tell, the show is to simply talk about things from "a woman's perspective." Being a woman does not make one a feminist, just as being a man does not make one a misogynist.

 

Again, I doubt they wouldn't consider themselves feminists if someone asked them. It doesn't matter what the subject the talk show is technically about if that's the case. You don't believe it's possible for someone to label themselves as a feminist and engage in stereotyping men etc.?

 

What's equality exactly? To have both sexes spend equal amounts of time raising kids? To have men stop dating by stereotypically going for looks? To have women stop dating by stereotypically going for level of success? Etc.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_and_equality

 

"Most feminists argue for equal opportunities, although many differ on exactly which claims to opportunity are vital, justifiable, or objectionable for the achievement of the ultimate goal of equality and many differ on strategies."

 

Note how it says most? This implies radical feminism. Note how it also says they differ? There's feminists who think boys and girls are totally the same at birth i.e. equality vs. difference feminism.

 

Being a woman does not make one a feminist, just as being a man does not make one a misogynist.

 

Never claimed that, but I'd like to note you can have a radical Muslim like bin Laden and a militant Christian like David Koresh. Why can't you have a radical feminist? The feminists can't even agree on what is objectionable or not.

 

I can perceive a mustache as pompous, but that doesn't mean it is.

(I don't, just the first thing that popped into my head when talking of perception.)

 

A New York Times article makes that same observation. Many people do. The women on the talk show certainly know about it. Hence, it is one reason why I highly doubt they wouldn't consider themselves feminists if asked. After all, you said it was about equality? Why wouldn't they be for it when they're obviously supportive of women?

 

Edited February 22, 2012 by Alpha1

[Kelkelen]

"

Again, I doubt they wouldn't consider themselves feminists if someone asked them. It doesn't matter what the subject the talk show is technically about if that's the case. You don't believe it's possible for someone to label themselves as a feminist and engage in stereotyping men etc.?

"

 

Of course anyone can label themselves as anything. And yes, it matters a LOT if the people just say, "hey, I'm a feminist!" versus actually declaring the show to promote a feminist viewpoint. The show doesn't claim that -- if it did, there would undoubtedly be backlash from the organized feminist community who are out there doing things to further sex and gender equality.

 

But the point is to look at the movement as a whole, not at some random people who appropriate the name without doing anything to further the movement or fight sexism. Active feminism isn't laughing at a man's mutilation (that's not acceptable from ANY perspective). If you actually research the movement a bit, though, you'll find large numbers of people who are interested in changing legislation for gender (and gender expression) equality, providing sexual abuse survivor and rape crisis support, fighting against genital mutilation, enforcing equal rights and rates in the workplace, teaching girls in certain African countries about menstruation and how to sew their own pads so that they can still attend school,

 

"

What's equality exactly? To have both sexes spend equal amounts of time raising kids? To have men stop dating by stereotypically going for looks? To have women stop dating by stereotypically going for level of success? Etc.

"

 

Feminist groups have answered this question many times over. Different viewpoints exist, but the general consensus is that people deserve equal opportunities to pursue their chosen course of life, whatever that may be. Since things like laws, low wages, lack of support for pregnancy, social attitudes and norms, retaliation, hostile environments and bullying, etc. prevent women from sharing the same opportunities as men, feminism strives to remove or alter those obstacles with an eye towards equality.

 

"

"Most feminists argue for equal opportunities, although many differ on exactly which claims to opportunity are vital, justifiable, or objectionable for the achievement of the ultimate goal of equality and many differ on strategies."

 

Note how it says most? This implies radical feminism. Note how it also says they differ? There's feminists who think boys and girls are totally the same at birth i.e. equality vs. difference feminism.

"

 

It doesn't actually help your case to continually cite wikipedia. Also, how does the word "most" imply radical feminism? That's a jump in logic that I didn't follow. Of course their chosen strategies differ; they're a large body of individuals, same as any other group or movement or faith. Not every single Catholic believes the same thing, not every single Civil Rights leader believes the same thing -- look at Martin Luther King, Jr. versus Malcolm X. But they agreed that the black American racial minority was being oppressed, and deserved equality, and something had to be done. Feminism is the same way. There are Liberal, Conservative, Radical, etc. "denominations" within feminism, but the underlying theory and goal is the same: There is not gender equality. There should be gender equality. We will take steps to achieve it.

 

That's it. Plain and simple.

 

ETA: It would probably be worthwhile to look at what is being said by active feminists in the content of their own webpages, magazines, books, etc., rather than at Wikipedia and the New York Times. NYT is known for being a "compromised" publication that caters to a mainstream and has backpedalled from expressing more liberal viewpoints, while... well, we all know about Wikipedia. Nuff said. (also, edited because I finally discovered insertable quote tags!)

Edited February 22, 2012 by Kelkelen

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't understand what you're trying to say at all.

 

A feminist is one whom supports gender equality. If they do not support gender equality, they are not feminists. If the point (or one of the goals) of the show isn't to promote gender equality/talk about gender equality, it's not a feminist show. As far as I can tell, the show is to simply talk about things from "a woman's perspective."

 

Being a woman does not make one a feminist, just as being a man does not make one a misogynist.

 

I can perceive a mustache as pompous, but that doesn't mean it is.

(I don't, just the first thing that popped into my head when talking of perception.)

Well - as long as you agree that men can be feminists too (yes I read every word of all the posts but as we don't have multiquoting here I am too lazy to...)

I believe in EQUAL rights for everybody. But I hate terms for these things. They both limit and divide.

 

I have met VERY VERY few men - and that includes all but one of the men I know - who are happy to be called feminist, even though they are ABSOLUTE supporters of what might be called the women's cause. But I only know two men who are total chauvinists (and BTW - a misogynist is one who hates women; misandrist is one who hates men. A masculist - if the word exists which I rather doubt -would be - to my mind - the male equivalent of a feminist.) And a misanthropist hates EVERYBODY. I think maybe I...

It's someone who acknowledges that women and men do not have equal political, economic, or social rights or treatment, in a way which is largely to women's deficit.

 

Well, OK. But rabid "feminism" is also what has led to stuff like some women being really offensive to men who open doors as it is so DEMEANING to women - and that does NOTHING to show ANYONE that we are as good as, and should have the same rights as, men.

 

As for pompous moustaches - that makes me laugh immoderately. You all need to meet my SO. I don't think he would know pompous if it bit him.

Edited February 22, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[WereJace]

Well, OK. But rabid "feminism" is also what has led to stuff like some women being really offensive to men who open doors as it is so DEMEANING to women - and that does NOTHING to show ANYONE that we are as good as, and should have the same rights as, men.

And these people are a tiny, tiny minority if they exist at all.

 

Any social movement as large as feminism is going to have a broad number of philosophies encompassed within. Yes, there are radical feminists who are transphobic and champion dubious causes, but they are not the majority by a very long shot. Issues such as gender presentation, male allies/feminists and all varieties of intersectionality are still contested among feminists. It's a huge swath of people, they're not going to be some constantly agreeing monolith marching in lockstep. That's why the broad definition of feminist as provided by Sockpuppet Strangler is the best one.

[TikindiDragon]

Any social movement as large as feminism is going to have a broad number of philosophies encompassed within. Yes, there are radical feminists who are transphobic and champion dubious causes, but they are not the majority by a very long shot.

Sadly I think I've met more self-proclaimed 'feminists' who have had issues with my trans status than ones that haven't. Rather like some of you treat someone saying they are Christian with caution because of prior experiences I ahve the same reaction to people saying they're feminists. I've had my identity denied (often rudely) too many times to feel entirely comfortable with them. My church has been more accepting for goodness sake.

[Princess Artemis]

"And, accordingly, it’s easy to look at the two shows as a clash between two stages of feminism."

 

Perception. Nonetheless, I would be surprised if they didn't claim they were feminists.

And perception has what to do with what the show is about? Someone can perceive The Lord of the Rings as science fiction and still be dead wrong!

 

You like Wikipedia, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talk_%28TV_series%29 Find the word "feminism" on that page.

 

Never claimed that, but I'd like to note you can have a radical Muslim like bin Laden and a militant Christian like David Koresh. Why can't you have a radical feminist? The feminists can't even agree on what is objectionable or not.

 

There are radical feminists. Guess what, "The Talk" isn't it! Radical feminism != raging misandry. Radical feminism might look like it from the outside, but you will absolutely not find anyone supporting lopping a man's penis off within.

 

Well - as long as you agree that men can be feminists too (yes I read every word of all the posts but as we don't have multiquoting here I am too lazy to...)

 

Of course men can! Why wouldn't they be able to be feminists? If a man has this strange idea in his head that women are humans too and thus ought to be treated as such, then he likely qualifies for the label, even if he wouldn't go down to the label store and pick it up for himself.

 

I'm not a huge fan of labels myself. Guess what I haven't declared myself as in this thread : ) I think it's fairly obvious though what label fits. It's the walk that matters to me.

 

Well, OK. But rabid "feminism" is also what has led to stuff like some women being really offensive to men who open doors as it is so DEMEANING to women - and that does NOTHING to show ANYONE that we are as good as, and should have the same rights as, men.

 

This actually came up in the thread a while back and I had a good ponder about it. Sir Barton had reported that a male friend or acquaintance or something had tried to be polite to a woman and open a door for her. She reacted with rudeness to this, to which his friend reacted by calling her slurs. (ETA: Just went back and double checked, what happened was "little rude himself in explaining to her why he wasn't interested in having sex with her"...yes, that's the thought to have in mind when one is merely trying to be polite )

 

Consider this for a long moment: If a man is being polite, why on Earth would he react to having his polite gift turned down by calling a woman slurs? Why would he not consider that the woman he offered to open a door for was having a bad day? Why would he not consider that maybe she wanted to open the door herself and was tired of men assuming she wanted help? Why would he chose to demean someone he apparently thought so highly of a moment before? It's because he wasn't thinking of her as a person, he was not being polite, he was demanding that she accept his offer. When she did not accept his offer, he lashed out. If he had been offering in actual charity and consideration, he would have been considerate of her.

 

I, personally, have no issue with having doors opened for me, so long as men in general have no issue with me opening doors for them. I don't expect the gesture to be accepted, I don't call men misandrist slurs if they don't accept my gesture made in consideration of them. But as long as people expect me to accept their gesture as my duty as a woman, and if I don't I'm the one being rude, then we have a problem.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Kelkelen]

Consider this for a long moment: If a man is being polite, why on Earth would he react to having his polite gift turned down by calling a woman slurs? Why would he not consider that the woman he offered to open a door for was having a bad day? Why would he not consider that maybe she wanted to open the door herself and was tired of men assuming she wanted help? Why would he chose to demean someone he apparently thought so highly of a moment before? It's because he wasn't thinking of her as a person, he was not being polite, he was demanding that she accept his offer. When she did not accept his offer, he lashed out. If he had been offering in actual charity and consideration, he would have been considerate of her.

 

I, personally, have no issue with having doors opened for me, so long as men in general have no issue with me opening doors for them. I don't expect the gesture to be accepted, I don't call men misandrist slurs if they don't accept my gesture made in consideration of them. But as long as people expect me to accept their gesture as my duty as a woman, and if I don't I'm the one being rude, then we have a problem.

I´m glad you pointed that out. I was involved in a similar situation waaaay back, after a high school prom. My date, my little sister, and her date had all gone to a diner for breakfast. My sister was NOT romantically interested in her date, and had told him so clearly, before accepting his offer to go to prom. After breakfast, he wanted to pay for her meal. She really strongly didn´t want him to. He insisted. She begged him not to. There was definitely an underlying gendered power struggle, where he wanted to act ¨chivalrous¨and ¨gentlemanly,¨ this idea that he SHOULD pay for her and she SHOULD let him, and if she didn´t, she was being horribly unkind to him. She, for her part, didn´t want to encourage him, didn´t want to let him ¨act out¨ being half of a romantic pair, and didn´t want to feel controlled by him. He didn´t listen to her. She ended up in tears. One of my friends leapt to HIS defense, saying he had ¨only tried to be polite¨and ¨be a gentleman.¨ But he was utterly refusing to take her wants and needs into account, and was only trying to make her feel indebted to him, and in some way owned by, or in his care, instead.

[Obscure_Trash]

Well - as long as you agree that men can be feminists too (yes I read every word of all the posts but as we don't have multiquoting here I am too lazy to...)

I believe in EQUAL rights for everybody. But I hate terms for these things. They both limit and divide.

Well, of course! Feminism is 'the support of gender equality', not 'women in support of gender equality'.

 

One of the loudest feminists I know is a man and he is very proud of being a feminist. One of my biggest supporters when I labeled myself as a feminist to the world. (And the way people react to feminism, I think a part of gender equality is being able to call yourself a feminist.)

The site I linked - Shakesville - is a feminist and progressive blog and has both male and female bloggers participating.

 

Unfortunately, humans are very obsessive about terms and labels, so everything gets one. x3

 

I have met VERY VERY few men - and that includes all but one of the men I know - who are happy to be called feminist, even though they are ABSOLUTE supporters of what might be called the women's cause. But I only know two men who are total chauvinists (and BTW - a misogynist is one who hates women; misandrist is one who hates men. A masculist - if the word exists which I rather doubt -would be - to my mind - the male equivalent of a feminist.) And a misanthropist hates EVERYBODY. I think maybe I...

 

And therein lies a problem - that it's not okay for men to be seen as 'feminine'. Why should a man not be okay with being called a feminist? D:

 

Well, OK. But rabid "feminism" is also what has led to stuff like some women being really offensive to men who open doors as it is so DEMEANING to women - and that does NOTHING to show ANYONE that we are as good as, and should have the same rights as, men.

 

Well, extremists for anything can give a bad rap, but part of life is figuring out who the extremists are and finding the balance and not letting extremists ruin your view of a whole group.

Westburo Baptist Church, for example. I have absolutely nothing good to say about them, but do I think all Baptists are rabid crazies who hate me because of them? Most certainly not! I've known very awesome Baptists and Christians of many denominations and I don't think they shouldn't be whatever faith just because there are crazies out there.

 

As for pompous moustaches - that makes me laugh immoderately. You all need to meet my SO. I don't think he would know pompous if it bit him.

 

*drags him on here*

 

Sadly I think I've met more self-proclaimed 'feminists' who have had issues with my trans status than ones that haven't. Rather like some of you treat someone saying they are Christian with caution because of prior experiences I ahve the same reaction to people saying they're feminists. I've had my identity denied (often rudely) too many times to feel entirely comfortable with them. My church has been more accepting for goodness sake.

 

I won't pretend to know statistics of thoughts on non-gender binary peoples for those who proclaim themselves feminists, but in the feminist blogs and such I keep up on, they always have things to say about the transphobia they see and are always especially disappointed when they see this coming from other 'feminists'. (Of course, if I tend to notice things like transphobia or other prejudices in a blog, I stop reading it.) So I'm hopeful that you've just run into a bad crop, but do know that there are plenty of (loud) feminists out there calling them out on their actions. Hopefully calling out transphobia becomes more of a norm than it is now. =\

 

~

 

Alpha1, I'm sorry, but it's still not connecting for me. I still don't get where you're trying to go with this. Dx

 

Going to backtrack from where it started (for me).

 

I mean, what *is* a feminist? It's someone who acknowledges that women and men do not have equal political, economic, or social rights or treatment, in a way which is largely to women's deficit.

 

I'm assuming they dislike being associated with that term because many feminists are hypocritical and use hyperbole. For example, on CBS's "The Talk", all those women laughed heartily at a woman who drugged her husband and sliced his [beep] off because of an impending divorce. Sharon Osbourne called it "quite fabulous" and "hysterical". It's only sexist if a man does it.

 

A definition of feminism was laid out and you pointed out a group which does not claim to be feminist and doesn't exist to promote feminism or even talk with a feminist prospective as an example of what would be considered extremist to...what? To say that there are no true feminists? The definition of feminism is wrong? There is variety in large groups (as there is in any group)?

[Sadako]

Re: 'Can radical feminists exist?'

 

I think the thing that's not registering is that anti-male hatred and reactionary 'reverse sexism' is not feminism. It is misandry. Misandry is not any better for society than misogyny.

[WereJace]

Sadly I think I've met more self-proclaimed 'feminists' who have had issues with my trans status than ones that haven't. Rather like some of you treat someone saying they are Christian with caution because of prior experiences I ahve the same reaction to people saying they're feminists. I've had my identity denied (often rudely) too many times to feel entirely comfortable with them. My church has been more accepting for goodness sake.

And that's terrible. No sarcasm implied at all, it really is. I know I've had my own issues with transphobia in the past and it can STING when challenging ones own privilege, but that's exactly why intersectionality is so important. People need to confront their own prejudices, challenge them and work towards getting rid of them. I think the majority of the movement is trying to become more trans-friendly, but I can't really speak past my own experiences, which are primarily as a ciswoman within a strongly intersectional activism community.

 

I guess what I'm clumsily trying to say is that I hope those people change their terrible attitudes towards trans people because they are being disrespectful, privileged **s.

[Durppie]

 

I think the thing that's not registering is that anti-male hatred and reactionary 'reverse sexism' is not feminism. It is misandry. Misandry is not any better for society than misogyny.

Agreed. Anyways,wouldn't the definition of 'reverse sexism', be the opposite of sexism, equality? Sexism seems to be mostly thought to be discrimination against females, but it is, as I think most of you know, discrimination against both genders. I'd say more, but then I'd be repeating what others have already said.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Durppie

[Princess Artemis]

Re: 'Can radical feminists exist?'

 

I think the thing that's not registering is that anti-male hatred and reactionary 'reverse sexism' is not feminism. It is misandry. Misandry is not any better for society than misogyny.

This is very true, and I did bring this up. It's may also be true that some straight up misandrists call themselves feminists, but none have been quoted so far in this thread so it's hard to use any such as an example.

 

I've read some radical feminist blogs and while I do not always agree with their stance, I understand that their reasoning doesn't come from a place of hatred for men. They are rarely friendly places for the clueless or uninformed, but they virtually always have a link somewhere explaining why people who don't at least understand certain concepts are not welcome. That's not hatred, that's a quantum physics discussion not catering to people who think electricity pours out of sockets if the socket isn't plugged up somehow.

 

@Tikindi: If I ever come across in the least bit cissexist or whatever the right word is that doesn't involve bringing mental illness into it, whack me with a clue-by-four. I absolutely do not wish to be and that is far more a religious matter than anything else.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Sadako]

Agreed. Anyways,wouldn't the definition of 'reverse sexism', be the opposite of sexism, equality? Sexism seems to be mostly thought to be discrimination against females, but it is, as I think most of you know, discrimination against both genders. I'd say more, but then I'd be repeating what others have already said.

 

's why I put it in quotes. Like how 'reverse racism' means hatred or prejudice directed at white people. I always thought the idea was that it is supposed to be impossible to discriminate against the privileged or majority group--because of course their privilege is righteous and correct, so if you discriminate against the majority, it's not an -ism, it is the perversion of an -ism which is natural and correct. *

 

*Of course I'm speaking facetiously.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Sadako

[Alpha1]

Of course anyone can label themselves as anything. And yes, it matters a LOT if the people just say, "hey, I'm a feminist!" versus actually declaring the show to promote a feminist viewpoint. The show doesn't claim that -- if it did, there would undoubtedly be backlash from the organized feminist community who are out there doing things to further sex and gender equality.

 

When did “feminist” mean you have to actively support the feminist movement? My initial point was merely that some people might not want to be associated with the term because of hypocrisy and hyperbole, and I pointed out a double standard from that show. Mentioning what the show is technically about is simply throwing red herrings around.

 

“The View” is similar to “The Talk”. From the YouTube video below, the ladies talk about Santorum’s comments on feminism. You can obviously tell they consider themselves feminists. It’s hardly a stretch to assume the ladies on “The Talk” are too.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5NmbVDEsLM...player_embedded

 

Ironically, Barbara Walters is supposed to be the poster child of the accomplishments of feminism, and she defended Santorum’s statement (the others didn't) by saying that the second wave of feminism shamed women who decided to be stay-at-home mothers.

 

But the point is to look at the movement as a whole, not at some random people who appropriate the name without doing anything to further the movement or fight sexism. Active feminism isn't laughing at a man's mutilation (that's not acceptable from ANY perspective). If you actually research the movement a bit, though, you'll find large numbers of people who are interested in changing legislation for gender (and gender expression) equality, providing sexual abuse survivor and rape crisis support, fighting against genital mutilation, enforcing equal rights and rates in the workplace, teaching girls in certain African countries about menstruation and how to sew their own pads so that they can still attend school,

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/200...women-gayrights

 

“In the late 70s a group of lesbians in Leeds, known as revolutionary feminists (RFs), made a controversial move that resonated loudly for me and many other women. They began calling for all feminists to embrace lesbianism. Appealing to their heterosexual sisters to get rid of men "from your beds and your heads", they started a debate, which reached its height in 1981 with the publication of an infamous booklet, Love Your Enemy? The Debate Between Heterosexual Feminism and Political Lesbianism (LYE).”

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...der-women\

 

“Stereotyping men and the women who choose to live with them won't help the quest for equality”

 

It doesn't actually help your case to continually cite wikipedia. Also, how does the word "most" imply radical feminism? That's a jump in logic that I didn't follow.

 

“Most support equal rights” – meaning there’s others who go further than that.

 

Of course their chosen strategies differ; they're a large body of individuals, same as any other group or movement or faith. Not every single Catholic believes the same thing, not every single Civil Rights leader believes the same thing -- look at Martin Luther King, Jr. versus Malcolm X. But they agreed that the black American racial minority was being oppressed, and deserved equality, and something had to be done. Feminism is the same way. There are Liberal, Conservative, Radical, etc. "denominations" within feminism, but the underlying theory and goal is the same: There is not gender equality. There should be gender equality. We will take steps to achieve it.

 

It didn’t just say their strategies differed; it said they weren’t in total agreement on what is objectionable.

 

Many of the holes are closed. This is why the third wave of feminism has a lot to do with “intersectionality”. I can see some things that could use a little tweaking in the U.S. i.e. paternity leave. However, they also try to pass bad legislation not unlike the Civil Rights Movement has e.g. how affirmative action was implemented. Look at the Paycheck Fairness Act. It’s flawed legislation based on the repeated claim: “women make 77% for every dollar a man makes”.

 

ETA: It would probably be worthwhile to look at what is being said by active feminists in the content of their own webpages, magazines, books, etc., rather than at Wikipedia and the New York Times.

 

See example of an active group above.

 

NYT is known for being a "compromised" publication that caters to a mainstream and has backpedalled from expressing more liberal viewpoints, while... well, we all know about Wikipedia. Nuff said. (also, edited because I finally discovered insertable quote tags!)

 

Why are you dismissing a conservative leaning news source outright without explaining why?

 

And perception has what to do with what the show is about? Someone can perceive The Lord of the Rings as science fiction and still be dead wrong!

 

This is a red herring. The show has zilch to do with anything.

 

You’re using an extreme analogy for a comparison. Additionally, I’m not using perception as proof. I simply think it suggests that it’s very likely they view themselves as feminists. Further supporting this is the video I posted above from the ladies in “The View”.

 

As I’ve said, many people view them as feminists. Before “The Talk”, there was “The View”. This is how people viewed that talk show, too. After all, you have a talk show from-women-to-women, and the women talking are successful as mothers and career-wise. You keep insisting that “it’s from a woman’s perspective”, but the focus of the show is irrelevant. I gave an example of a double standard from the women themselves. No one has shown me that they claim they’re not feminists. The women in the audience even laughed, so the likelihood that a feminist laughed goes up to 0.99~.

 

Here’s a comment from a woman from the internet to show what I’m talking about:

 

“Really?? Has this what it’s come to. Did anyone really think that Sharon Osbourne thinks you should cut your man’s [beep] off if he does something you don’t like or if he cheats on you? Come on people – watch the show and enjoy it. Let’s not be ridiculous.”

 

If men joked about cutting a woman’s genitals on TV, they would have been fired on the spot, feminists groups would have attacked them, and it wouldn’t be considered funny at all.

 

You like Wikipedia, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talk_%28TV_series%29 Find the word "feminism" on that page.

 

The Wikipedia article for “The View” uses the word “feminism” two times. Nyuck nyuck nyuck!

 

There are radical feminists. Guess what, "The Talk" isn't it! Radical feminism != raging misandry. Radical feminism might look like it from the outside, but you will absolutely not find anyone supporting lopping a man's penis off within.

 

I never said they were radical feminists. I don’t watch “The Talk”, nor really know much about any of the ladies, so no comment on that.

 

I simply posted an observation that feminists can be hypocritical and use hyperbole, and it may have been a factor on why someone decided not to associate with the term. I gave an example using “The Talk”, and everyone jumps on me saying “’The Talk’ isn’t feminist”. What if I used a personal anecdote? Probably no one would have questioned whether they were “active supporters” or not.

 

Alpha1, I'm sorry, but it's still not connecting for me. I still don't get where you're trying to go with this. Dx

 

 

 

A definition of feminism was laid out and you pointed out a group which does not claim to be feminist and doesn't exist to promote feminism or even talk with a feminist prospective as an example of what would be considered extremist to...what? To say that there are no true feminists? The definition of feminism is wrong? There is variety in large groups (as there is in any group)?

 

I’m just rehashing everything, so just look at my response for the others.

 

"True feminists” can be well-intentioned, but they might support bad legislation like the Paycheck Fairness Act. *shrugs* People have different views on what equal is. Much of this is largely debated in the feminist camps themselves, since some of them think the sexes are different in a number of ways, while others think both sexes are the same at birth, but social constructs dictate everything.

 

It's may also be true that some straight up misandrists call themselves feminists, but none have been quoted so far in this thread so it's hard to use any such as an example.

 

Mentioned a group above, but here's another.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas

 

Also see response below.

 

I think the thing that's not registering is that anti-male hatred and reactionary 'reverse sexism' is not feminism.

 

Then why do feminists define “masculinism” or “masculinist” as advocating male superiority?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

 

"Masculists cite one-sided legislation, selective enforcement, and neglected civil rights as examples of discrimination against men and boys."

 

Guys have problems too!

 

[Kelkelen]

When did “feminist” mean you have to actively support the feminist movement? My initial point was merely that some people might not want to be associated with the term because of hypocrisy and hyperbole, and I pointed out a double standard from that show. Mentioning what the show is technically about is simply throwing red herrings around.

 

...Feminist *does* mean you support the movement. Maybe not as actively as some others, but it does definitely mean that you think men and women do not have equal economic, social, or political status, to women's detriment, and you want to see that remedied, and your actions will reflect your point of view.

 

There IS no double standard on that show. The women did *not* claim to be feminists, or representing feminism, and *then* say hypocritical, anti-male things. It's not a "red herring" to state what the show is technically about -- if it's not a feminist show, then you have no grounds on which to accuse the women who host it of being hypocritical feminists. (Or else you're just automatically equating "woman" with "feminist.")

 

I understand what you mean about people not wanting to be associated with the hypocrisy or hyperbole of one person who claims to be of their movement, but it certainly matters whether or not that person *does* claim to hold that point of view! And, the bottom line is, every single group on the planet that has ever or will ever be formed is bound to include/attract a few crazy extremists. But it isn't fair to form an opinion of the group as a whole based on the actions of the lunatic fringe, whether that group is feminists, Republicans, Democrats, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. And no one can forever refuse to claim any affiliation with anything just in case one person goes and says something stupid -- which is why it's best to look at the actions of a group based on official, self-proclaimed sources that represent a fair majority, and not on one person, especially a person who never claimed to be a member of that group in the first place!

 

Regarding Wikipedia, here's an excerpt from the bottom of the article on Masculism:

 

Reactions

---Feminism

 

Feminists respond to the different ideologies of Masculism in different ways. Masculists who promote gender equality are often considered male feminists.[29] It is the general opinion of modern feminists that masculism, when defined as "male superiority or dominance",[30][31] is inherently opposed to the equality cause and is considered a form of misogyny.[32]

 

Some feminists are actively involved in promoting men's rights, especially father's rights and social equality, arguing that this position is necessary for feminism and women's equality.

 

Being a feminist is NOT the same as denying that men have problems!

Edited February 23, 2012 by Kelkelen

[The Evil Doer]

I have never encountered a feminist who didnt dislike men, at least slightly.

I have taken two feminist courses in college (easy grade ) and it was pretty much 80 girls screaming "man suck" the entire lesson, most of the points were valid ones but the behavior was ridiculous IMO.

 

I think feminism started off as getting equal rights but at some point it became something else, maybe it didnt become something else but it is perceived by most of us as something else, every group of people that says "xxxxxx power" is IMO excluding equality.

Edited February 23, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Sadako]

Then why do feminists define “masculinism” or “masculinist” as advocating male superiority?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

 

"Masculists cite one-sided legislation, selective enforcement, and neglected civil rights as examples of discrimination against men and boys."

 

Guys have problems too!

...because that's a different word, and is totally irrelevant to what I was talking about?

 

I'm not saying no one ever discriminated against a man. I'm not saying no man ever had problems. I'm saying that hating men is not the definition of feminism, and to claim that misandry and feminism are the same thing is totally missing the entire point of feminism.

[Princess Artemis]

The show has zilch to do with anything.

So why did you bring it up? ETA: And yeah, if you had brought in an example that was actually feminists saying something hypocritical, you wouldn't be being questioned for bringing in faulty evidence. No one said no feminists evaaaaaar say anything hypocritical, they said your example was terrible. Admit you goofed, go back and find a real example and try to build an argument on top of that, it'll work better.

 

I have never encountered a feminist who didnt dislike men, at least slightly.

 

I hadn't claimed the label, but now I will. I'm Princess Artemis, I'm a feminist, and I don't dislike men. Nice to meet you.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[The Evil Doer]

I have never encountered a feminist who didnt dislike men, at least slightly.

 

I hadn't claimed the label, but now I will. I'm Princess Artemis, I'm a feminist, and I don't dislike men. Nice to meet you.

It's a pleasure as always

That's 1/207, a small step for a man, but still an important step

[Alpha1]

...Feminist *does* mean you support the movement. Maybe not as actively as some others, but it does definitely mean that you think men and women do not have equal economic, social, or political status, to women's detriment, and you want to see that remedied, and your actions will reflect your point of view.

 

Semantics. It basically means you believe woman should have equality. Where have those women suggested that they don’t believe that?

 

So why did you bring it up?  ETA: And yeah, if you had brought in an example that was actually feminists saying something hypocritical, you wouldn't be being questioned for bringing in faulty evidence.  No one said no feminists evaaaaaar say anything hypocritical, they said your example was terrible.  Admit you goofed, go back and find a real example and try to build an argument on top of that, it'll work better.

 

There IS no double standard on that show.

 

Artemis, stop saying I goofed when you won't even defend your statements.

 

They laughed about domestic violence. It would never fly if it was a male doing it to a female. FYI, one of the ladies on the show eventually said it was a double standard, but Osbourne basically said, “Shut up, laugh with me – it’s different”.

 

It's not a "red herring" to state what the show is technically about -- if it's not a feminist show, then you have no grounds on which to accuse the women who host it of being hypocritical feminists. (Or else you're just automatically equating "woman" with "feminist.")

 

You’re just hiding behind semantics. You say it’s not valid because they’re not “actively supporting” feminism.

 

Guess what? Those ladies do far more to empowering women than your average woman who claims to be a feminist.

 

I understand what you mean about people not wanting to be associated with the hypocrisy or hyperbole of one person who claims to be of their movement, but it certainly matters whether or not that person *does* claim to hold that point of view! And, the bottom line is, every single group on the planet that has ever or will ever be formed is bound to include/attract a few crazy extremists. But it isn't fair to form an opinion of the group as a whole based on the actions of the lunatic fringe, whether that group is feminists, Republicans, Democrats, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. And no one can forever refuse to claim any affiliation with anything just in case one person goes and says something stupid -- which is why it's best to look at the actions of a group based on official, self-proclaimed sources that represent a fair majority, and not on one person.

 

I’m not saying everything about feminism is bad, but many people think it has become something akin to black or white pride.

 

..because that's a different word, and is totally irrelevant to what I was talking about?

I'm not saying no one ever discriminated against a man. I'm not saying no man ever had problems. I'm saying that hating men is not the definition of feminism, and to claim that misandry and feminism are the same thing is totally missing the entire point of feminism.

 

How was that irrelevant?

 

You said, “I think the thing that's not registering is that anti-male hatred and reactionary 'reverse sexism' is not feminism.”

 

Note below: I’m not suggesting you agree with the definition of the term.

 

I’m asking why do feminists frame masculinism as advocating male superiority? Many feminists say male supporters of gender equality are “male feminists” or “feminists. Right… because if you’re for masculinism, you’re just a pig that wants power, sex, and money.

 

 

[Princess Artemis]

Artemis, stop saying I goofed when you won't even defend your statements.

 

They laughed about domestic violence. It would never fly if it was a male doing it to a female. FYI, one of the ladies on the show eventually said it was a double standard, but Osbourne basically said, “Shut up, laugh with me – it’s different”.

What defense of ""The Talk" isn't claiming to be feminist" would you like? What would be sufficient for you? Wikipedia wasn't, how about the official site: http://www.cbs.com/shows/the_talk/ Try to find anything that describes it on there.

 

Yeah, they did laugh about it, and that was abominable. Was that your point all along? No, it was not. Your point was "Here's an example why some people might not like to be associated with feminists, they say atrocious things like this!" And that is where the argument falls apart because you used a bad example to support it. Some Christians say atrocious, hypocritical, and hyperbolic things too, but it's hardly logical to use that as a reason to think Islam is bad.

 

Yes, I know, you're just going to say I used an extreme analogy again. Doesn't make it any less accurate.

 

Now, if you want to talk about the atrocious and horrible double standard those women have without using it as evidence against feminism, we can do that. It was horrible and there absolutely is something very wrong with it. It's horribly sexist what they said. No disagreement there.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Princess Artemis