Posted March 21, 2012 Oh boy, I know that feeling as well =P Especially when you're at the door and someone else approaches, but they're kind of far away so you're not sure whether to keep holding the door or... Can't say I considered the idea that door-holding could be seen as a 'power play'; for me it's such an automatic gesture, I don't even give it a second thought. I've yet to be called out for opening a door though, so hopefully it's never come across that way, hah. The social behaviors of door-holding are a true conundrum. I think everyone-- men and women alike-- can agree: automatic doors are boss. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 21, 2012 Can't say I considered the idea that door-holding could be seen as a 'power play'; for me it's such an automatic gesture, I don't even give it a second thought. I've yet to be called out for opening a door though, so hopefully it's never come across that way, hah. If you've never been called out on it, don't worry too much about it. Make sure you let women open the door for you sometimes, some of us like doing that for other people too : ) It's pretty obvious in my house that there's some power going on. My mother does not open doors for anyone in the house, and if a door is opened for her, she rushes right through like a bull in a china shop and does not thank anyone in the house. She'll thank strangers and also open doors for strangers or her grandsons, but not her husband or daughter. We owe her an open door somehow. Whereas my dad and I, we get tangled up on who is trying to be polite to whom. He lets me open doors for him sometimes and I let him open doors for me, but I can tell he doesn't feel comfortable going in through a door before me, so most of the time, I'll swallow my need to be the one to open the door and not behave like my mother and go in first. In my family's case, it's more like the door opener is the servant position, but it's still a power thing. On the other hand, there are myriad tales of women being demeaned because they didn't accept the oh so polite gift of an open door. If one follows consideration up by calling the subject of one's consideration by getting angry and explaining to them how one doesn't want to have sex with them, then bewailing feminism for taking away one's right to be a gentleman, one was not being considerate nor a gentleman in the first place! Is door opening a really little thing, in the grand scheme? Sure it is. But it's also one that people run into every day. Such things are well-described as "background radiation". One instance isn't going to hurt anyone, but we're inundated by it. And yes, automatic doors are pretty cool. As a disabled person who sometimes uses a wheelchair and other times just has a really hard time opening doors, I find them especially awesome. And now, reminded of background radiation: Tumblog with a bad word in the title -- Escher Girls (probably some bad language in that link) Women as depicted like inhuman blobs of boobs and butt in comic books. Genre Review's Men and Women in Book covers Good comparison here. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 21, 2012 Princess Artemis, that second link was wonderful! I spent 5 years working in a comic-and-game store, and I got SO sick of the way women looked in the art on every single rpg book cover, every card game, and every superhero comic. It´s just unnatural to the point of absurd! To sum up the idea of power play in door-opening: GOOD: ¨Let me get that for you.¨ ¨No, thanks, I´ve got it.¨ ¨Oh, okay.¨ *smiles!* BAD: ¨Here, let me get that for you.¨ ¨No, thanks, I´ve got it.¨ ¨No. Let me.¨ ¨Really, I´m fine.¨ *person dives in front of you to get it anyway* In the bad example, it goes from being an offer of help to a matter of control -- the person is suddenly not "allowed" to open the door for themselves, and the other person is refusing to listen to what the first person actually wants. Paying for people easily takes the same form. If you´re really just offering to help, then be okay with your offer being declined if the help isn´t needed! All too often (though not every time), I feel like, if a man opens the door for me in the U.S., they think it´s supposed to make me prefer them to other men, and perhaps owe them more attention than I would give to a man who didn´t open doors for me. This is different from Spain, where I live now; the national custom is for men to hold doors for women, and so none of them expect "special treatment" in return for being polite to me. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 21, 2012 I don't think it's that, I think it was the situation -- woman is holding door open for an elderly person to pass through, and someone else just strolls on through as well while the door is open, but doesn't even thank the person holding it. On a related note, some girl once snapped at me for thanking her for holding the door open when she was holding it open for her friend. Seriously. I thanked her and got a really nasty "I wasn't holding it for you" in return. Excuuuuuse me, princess. Where I live, I find that when I hold the door open for a man they're really surprised that I did so. I also find that there are some elderly men who absolutely insist on letting me go through first if I hold the door open for them. It doesn't really bother me, but it is sort of funny. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) http://now.msn.com/money/0321-reebok-ad-pulled.aspx After several rounds of social media-fueled criticism, Reebok pulled a controversial ad with the tagline "Cheat on your girlfriend, not your workout." Although the poster only appeared in Germany, it twittered its way across the world before infidelity-outing website Cheaterville.com proposed a boycott of the struggling brand. "This form of advertising shows a dishonest and disrespectful attitude towards women," Cheaterville's founder James McGibney wrote. "Your company should be ashamed to have even placed this ad." On Tuesday afternoon, Reebok officially apologized, noting that it does "not condone this message or cheating in any way." Especially if that message makes its customers consider having an affair with Adidas. Friend shared this with me with the comment: "Thought you would find this as gross as I did. I mean its just so awful the blatant disrespect for women anymore." Really, who thought that was a good tagline? o_O Also, loved that poses thing; thanks Princess Artemis! Edited March 21, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 And now, reminded of background radiation: Tumblog with a bad word in the title -- Escher Girls (probably some bad language in that link) Women as depicted like inhuman blobs of boobs and butt in comic books. Genre Review's Men and Women in Book covers Good comparison here. So ? Are super heroes ugly fat dudes or did I miss something ? Last I checked comic books were about fantasy, about daydreaming, who wants reality in comic books anyhow ? Opening doors is sexist, giving my jacket to a girl when she's cold is sexist, not punching a girl just coz she's a girl is sexist, drawing sexy girls is sexist... Let's be frank for a second, most of you will find sexism in everything, can you answer me why are you constantly looking for it in (excuse my French) really dumb places ? People who are happy rarely get into overanalyzing stuff that much, Sexism is a big problem and when it comes to workplace, salaries, decision makings its major but all this rant about door opening, comic books, girl pushups... It's so frustrating that those are the places you would choose to go to... Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) So ? Are super heroes ugly fat dudes or did I miss something ? Last I checked comic books were about fantasy, about daydreaming, who wants reality in comic books anyhow ? Opening doors is sexist, giving my jacket to a girl when she's cold is sexist, not punching a girl just coz she's a girl is sexist, drawing sexy girls is sexist... Let's be frank for a second, most of you will find sexism in everything, can you answer me why are you constantly looking for it in (excuse my French) really dumb places ? People who are happy rarely get into overanalyzing stuff that much, Sexism is a big problem and when it comes to workplace, salaries, decision makings its major but all this rant about door opening, comic books, girl pushups... It's so frustrating that those are the places you would choose to go to... http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book...lseequivalence/ This sums up the comic book issue pretty neatly. (Also, you think those poses are sexy? You think women with broken spines and alien anatomy are physically attractive?) ETA: Or you could imagine the vast majority of US video games and comic books with art like this...imagine what it would feel like if everywhere you turned, this kind of thing was all you saw of men: http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=...o+suit#/d30tm0o http://www.petapixel.com/2011/10/04/men-ph...y-female-poses/ Just imagine that for a little while. And you are not seriously saying that because someone thinks about something that they are therefore unhappy? Or that the only happy people are the thoughtless ones? Or that because one can be thoughtful on one small point that one cannot therefore be thoughtful on another large one? You know, it isn't the most common personality type, but there is a good 3 or 4% of humanity that just thrives on thinking about every little thing until it's all gone done thought out : ) Edited March 22, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book...lseequivalence/ This sums up the comic book issue pretty neatly. And you are not seriously saying that because someone thinks about something that they are therefore unhappy? Or that the only happy people are the thoughtless ones? Or that because one can be thoughtful on one small point that one cannot therefore be thoughtful on another large one? You know, it isn't the most common personality type, but there is a good 3 or 4% of humanity that just thrives on thinking about every little thing until it's all gone done thought out : ) Yeah it sums it up for you, however its not really representing the reality we live in, our society is obsessed with celebrities, fangirls are screaming and drooling over hollywood stars who are far from being the cute batman with average body and big eyes, open the tv and see whats hot and whats not, hot guys in the industry are indeed those with six packs who look like captain America but couldnt act even if their lives depended on it, why are they celebrities ? Well coz girls like them and not for their average looks and big eyes... thats the reality, the same rule applies from the male perspective.... Sex sells, women just like men are indeed shallow, its just that due to the society "bondage" women choose the denial route... I am seriously saying that instead of discussing serious matters and there are plenty of those when it comes to sexism most of the people are using this thread as a rant all you can about really not that significant things, and Im seriously saying that when one says "guy offering me a jacket on a cold night is sexism", "guy holding the door open for me is sexism" and a whole bunch of other examples WELL, that's not thinking about it, its more like overanalyzing every little thing while looking for the negative... people who constantly keep looking for negative aspects instead of positive ones are rarely happy. ETA : (Also, you think those poses are sexy? You think women with broken spines and alien anatomy are physically attractive?) ETA: Or you could imagine the vast majority of US video games and comic books with art like this...imagine what it would feel like if everywhere you turned, this kind of thing was all you saw of men: http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=...o+suit#/d30tm0o http://www.petapixel.com/2011/10/04/men-ph...y-female-poses/ Just imagine that for a little while. Yes I do, you know why ? Coz its a comic, there are monsters, people flying and what not, we read comics to escape reality, its a fantasy world, I dont care about relistic bodies coz the concept of comic books is just that - they arent realistic... You want a comic book to portray guys as in those pictures, go ahead and make one, do you really think guys will make a fuss over it ? we will just read other stuff which we enjoy more, its not a big deal.... Edited March 22, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 I honestly have not heard a great deal of ranting in this thread. Most of it has been carefully spoken and rational, certainly the later parts have been. Nor have I seen a great deal of looking for things to be upset about. I mean, Kelkelen told us about her friend I believe it was who was brought to tears by a guy who was trying to control her on her prom night. Did that friend go out looking for that experience to over-analyze, or did it, y'know, happen to her? I know I personally do not go out looking for these experiences myself, but oddly enough, they keep happening.... Not a page and a half ago we were on the subject of gender and violence. Is that not "serious enough"? Or were we over-analyzing that when we should just stop looking for things to be upset by so we could enjoy our lives more? Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 I honestly have not heard a great deal of ranting in this thread. Most of it has been carefully spoken and rational, certainly the later parts have been. Just FYI that may have more to do with most of the people who disagree with you/think you're taking it a bit far avoiding posting in this thread. I'm pretty certain 'heated' would be a mild term for what would happen if we didn't. <- goes back to lurking. And isn't going to be drawn on his opinions here. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 Just FYI that may have more to do with most of the people who disagree with you/think you're taking it a bit far avoiding posting in this thread. I'm pretty certain 'heated' would be a mild term for what would happen if we didn't. <- goes back to lurking. And isn't going to be drawn on his opinions here. Be that as it may (or may not, I will not address it any further than that), there is not, currently, ranting going on, so to say there is is incorrect. Yes I do, you know why ? Coz its a comic, there are monsters, people flying and what not, we read comics to escape reality, its a fantasy world, I dont care about relistic bodies coz the concept of comic books is just that - they arent realistic... You want a comic book to portray guys as in those pictures, go ahead and make one, do you really think guys will make a fuss over it ? we will just read other stuff which we enjoy more, its not a big deal.... I'm still puzzled why you find broken bodies sexy, but I'm not a sexual person; maybe it's just a thing. Where did I say I wanted any of that? I asked you to imagine, for a moment, what it would be like if all the comic books and video games were nothing but wall-to-wall stuff like those pictures I linked. What makes you think you would get to just read other stuff? You wouldn't have any other options. If you wanted to read comic books, all you would have would be those kind of comic books, and if you wanted to play video games, all you would have would be those kind of video games. If you didn't enjoy it, well tough luck, because that's all there would be. That's very simplistic, but try to imagine it for a little bit. I am not expecting any particular sort of predetermined response. (And yeah, I think some guys would make a fuss over it if I did make a comic book like that. I really think they would, considering how much of a fuss some guys make about BioWare games choosing to cater to more than just them.) Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I do seem to recall that the failure of porn magazines aimed at women to take off big time (as in Playboy style poses involving full frontal male nudes) was attributed partly to the fact that men objected to their bits being paraded for all to see, especially when there were images showing them - INTERESTED, shall we say (watches forum rules with care...). Men complained that the images made them feel inferior and gave women unrealistic expectations. WOMEN complain to this day about Hustler having that effect on them, and "it's only a bit of harmless fun, don't get your knickers in a twist" is the only response you get. Little thing. I don't think so. Nor is gender stereotyping in children. I well recall sending my girls (7 and 9 at the time) to school in trousers, as was my right, and the head teacher called me in to object. I argued and she in the end said well she couldn't STOP me, but they wouldn't be little ladies, would they. I could see how they would be treated within the school, so I told them how silly she was and we complied. However - three weeks later - after one of mine taught a few other girls how to hang upside down on the monkey bars and another girl fell and concussed herself because her skirt was hanging over her face and she couldn't see... the rules were changed and all of sudden almost all the girls switched to trousers for school - mostly because they COULD. Of small things - for that was a SMALL thing - are larger things born. Edited March 22, 2012 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 I do seem to recall that the failure of porn magazines aimed at women to take off big time (as in Playboy style poses involving full frontal male nudes) was attributed partly to the fact that men objected to their bits being paraded for all to see, especially when there were images showing them - INTERESTED, shall we say (watches forum rules with care...). Men complained that the images made them feel inferior and gave women unrealistic expectations. WOMEN complain to this day about Hustler having that effect on them, and "it's only a bit of harmless fun, don't get your knickers in a twist" is the only response you get. Little thing. I don't think so. Nor is gender stereotyping in children. I well recall sending my girls (7 and 9 at the time) to school in trousers, as was my right, and the head teacher called me in to object. I argued and she in the end said well she couldn't STOP me, but they wouldn't be little ladies, would they. I could see how they would be treated within the school, so I told them how silly she was and we complied. However - three weeks later - after one of mine taught a few other girls how to hang upside down on the monkey bars and another girl fell and concussed herself because her skirt was hanging over her face and she couldn't see... the rules were changed and all of sudden almost all the girls switched to trousers for school - mostly because they COULD. Of small things - for that was a SMALL thing - are larger things born. *Claps* You are a great mother, fuzzbucket. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Yup... it was my little sister, actually, driven to tears because her date would *not* let her pay for herself, and another boy took his side and chewed her out and guilt-tripped her, as well. There's definitely something wrong when a man refuses to listen to what their date actually *wants.* WARNING: Not Safe For Work and potentially offensive pics -- nude art Here's a good example of women in art: http://www.oilpaintings-sales.com/images-b...venus-83358.jpg This painting, by Alexandre Cabanal, caused a HUGE sensation when it was first revealed -- the art world went nuts over it. Suddenly, everyone and their brother was copying it -- using the limp, broken-backed, post-coital pose with lowered eyelids, curling or flexing toes, and low angle aimed from the crotch upwards in their own paintings. It appeared again and again over the next decade. Like so: http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/4893/7278358_1.jpg http://0.tqn.com/d/arthistory/1/0/W/d/mma_gc_16.jpg http://onokart.files.wordpress.com/2010/10...=1000&h=675 http://www.chinaoilpaintinggallery.com/oil...ning-Nude-2.jpg http://pigtailsinpaint.files.wordpress.com...jpg?w=500&h=405 http://www.pandorawordbox.com/images/f011621344.jpg (torso twist!) http://americangallery.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/nude.jpg http://naranjoparis.com/portal/wp-content/...ude-630x375.jpg http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.as...f90e895690f36d6 http://dailyplateofcrazy.com/wp-content/up...-nude-19171.jpg As men (and women!) in the late Victorian era grew angry with and threatened by women's growing independence, painters began to portray adult women as temptresses, harlots, monsters, and narcissists. However, they still wanted to idealize womanhood as they had previously, suggesting that the natural state of woman is both innocent and sexually inviting/submissive/possessable. So, since they were all busy painting adult women as sexually threatening, evil, cruel, or perverse twisted concepts of the mother/goddess/lover gone bad, they started painting and photographing female children as the simultaneously innocent/sexually-inviting ones. Like so: http://www.ownapainting.com/images/William...ChildatBath.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ett_Millais.jpg (note the title, "Cherry Ripe," along with the lowered chin with upward gaze, parted legs, and hands folded to resemble certain anatomy that they sit in front of) http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/3...Cherry-Ripe.jpg (probably an homage, as it is also entitled "Cherry Ripe") http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm....07.1873%29.jpg (the pose isn't particularly sexual, but note the classical setting: a spume-sprayed rock in the midst of the ocean, standard for "birth of Aphrodite/Venus" paintings) http://willisdomingo.com/images/vicn/scan0001.jpg http://www.jbkr.com/myshowcase/WOMENPAINTE...ABYLAUGHING.JPG http://uploads0.wikipaintings.org/images/m...pg!Blog.jpg http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/3...eading-Time.jpg http://www.canvaz.com/e/Etienne-Adolphe-Pi...l_Reading-s.jpg (I couldn't even find the ones I most wanted to use online -- but in art history books, I've definitely seen images of nude little girls posing sexily in front of mirrors, or with wings in churchyards) Oh, and just in case you thought the sexay torso-twist, "see my front and back "assets" at the same time" pose was anything new, here's some pornographic photography from the 1850s: http://hums3001.unsw.wikispaces.net/file/v...French_nude.jpg http://hums3001.unsw.wikispaces.net/file/v...nihan_image.jpg What a lot of people in this thread are saying is, imagine if men were portrayed in this manner -- commonly, as the norm, everywhere you turned. If everywhere, in advertising, in art, in comics, on TV, in movies, in entertainment, the men were partially or completely nude, in sexy, inviting (whether active or passive) poses (though the majority would probably be passive), in odd poses with their butts or chests stuck out, in a state of vulnerable lassitude, with lowered eyes, panting mouths, hard glutes, and perfect pecs. Imagine growing up as a man, with that image of idealized male, the culturally encouraged male, surrounding you on every side. It isn't that one image by itself is cause for an outcry. It's that each image is the tip of the iceberg, one more stone in the wall -- it's representative of an underlying norm that is discouraging and harmful, the idea that the gender portrayed is valued primarily for its ability to provide sexual pleasure to the other gender, for its beauty, submissiveness, desirability, and ability to sexually gratify above all else. Just try typing "reclining nude" into a search engine, and see how many *male* images pop up. Not too many like this one: http://seablogs.zenfs.com/u/RpPIxleGAh6TSh...31073915850.jpg Oh, and for a good perspective on women in art, look up "Balthus painting" -- he painted all the classic sexualized poses, only with little girls, in the 1940s. And it goes on. Edited March 22, 2012 by Kelkelen Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 *Claps* You are a great mother, fuzzbucket. Thank you - BUT - I didn't INTEND for things to change over a concussion, you know....!!! If I had, I would have had the decency to have one of my OWN concussed !! I could also tell you about the (same daughter - what a frightful child..) decided to take shop rather than home ec.... she won - she always does. (Do not cross her. See above under 5 foot bouncers... ). The only small thing - she thought maybe it would all start over, on the first day of classes, when she lined up with the others, and the teacher came along to let them loose among all the scary machinery. He stopped. "What are you doing here ?" "Taking shop." "Then tie up your hair." We loved that - he was TOTALLY unfazed, after all we had been through at higher levels ! Actually that was the easy one. The OTHER one - a brilliant mathematician - wanted to accelerate, as she was bored rigid and the math teacher wouldn't let her as "girls don't do advanced math". She found a way to do it by correspondence (Grade 10 with 11 by mail on the side..) and promptly won the COUNTY WIDE math prize for Grade 11s. Was that teacher pleased ? No - he never forgave her. What a lot of people in this thread are saying is, imagine if men were portrayed in this manner -- commonly, as the norm, everywhere you turned. If everywhere, in advertising, in art, in comics, on TV, in movies, in entertainment, the men were partially or completely nude, in sexy, inviting (whether active or passive) poses (though the majority would probably be passive), in odd poses with their butts or chests stuck out, in a state of vulnerable lassitude, with lowered eyes, panting mouths, hard glutes, and perfect pecs. Imagine growing up as a man, with that image of idealized male, the culturally encouraged male, surrounding you on every side. It isn't that one image by itself is cause for an outcry. It's that each image is the tip of the iceberg, one more stone in the wall -- it's representative of an underlying norm that is discouraging and harmful, the idea that the gender portrayed is valued primarily for its ability to provide sexual pleasure to the other gender, for its beauty, submissiveness, desirability, and ability to sexually gratify above all else. RIGHT ON ! *applauds* Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 I find the "chivalry is dead" ideal rather ironic in a sense, since if I unconsciously reply to a woman with a "thanks man" it somehow becomes a sexist and offensive remark. If I open a door for a woman, I'm somehow implying that she is weak and needs to be coddled. Even if I offer to pay for dinner, I'm somehow furthering the stereotype that women cannot pay for things themselves or something equally ridiculous. Sexism still exists in the world, of course, but it's not ferociously spat out in everyday situations as one would think. I support women's rights being equal, but like I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not easy to stand alongside people who seem so eager to label you a sexist for referring to a mixed sex group as "you guys" =/ Just wondering, did you ask whoever you were talking to why they were upset with what was said? Because, IME, a lot of times things get said that actually are problematic, either in general or in that specific situation, but the person saying them declares it a non-issue because of their intentions. To be honest, I kind of found this disquieting: I support women's rights being equal, but like I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not easy to stand alongside people who seem so eager to label you a sexist for referring to a mixed sex group as "you guys" =/ I have to say that never, not even with the meanest, most obnoxious, destructive jerk I've ever met have I ever found it hard to support their basic human rights because of their idiocy. It never would have even occured to me to equate the two, and if the subject would have been brought up I would have been baffled by the thought that it would be difficult to support their right to equality because they were mean to me, or that the two issues even had any kind of revelence to each other. And tying those two things together actually creates a rather substantial obstacle towards equality because it suggests that a. it's a kindness to keep supporting women's rights, as opossed to it pretty much being the least one can do, given the situation, and b. women should adjust their behaviors and attitudes to make it easier for men to support them - as if we need to somehow earn back what's rightfully ours. And that's the thing about words - they can carry a meaning larger than that which you may have originally intended, and that's even more true in situations in which they help to frame how we see an issue. And that can be easy to dismiss (especially when the dismissive person doesn't really have to deal with the negative consequences of an unchanging status quo), but look at the two ways that this particular issue can be framed from the male side: a. I support women's rights being equal. b. I'm attempting to fix a situation in which I'm unjustly enriched by other people's suffering. And those are just words, but they can greatly change how this entire problem is approached. Because words can carry a powerful amount of meaning and, honestly, waving that aside really isn't doing women any favors. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 I have to say that never, not even with the meanest, most obnoxious, destructive jerk I've ever met have I ever found it hard to support their basic human rights because of their idiocy. It never would have even occured to me to equate the two, and if the subject would have been brought up I would have been baffled by the thought that it would be difficult to support their right to equality because they were mean to me, or that the two issues even had any kind of revelence to each other. And tying those two things together actually creates a rather substantial obstacle towards equality because it suggests that a. it's a kindness to keep supporting women's rights, as opossed to it pretty much being the least one can do, given the situation, and b. women should adjust their behaviors and attitudes to make it easier for men to support them - as if we need to somehow earn back what's rightfully ours. This, yes. I mean, how would it sound if I said, "I support equal rights for Blacks, but to be honest, I find it hard to support the movement when a few of its members label me a racist, just for accidentally lumping everyone together as white." Really? You'd withdraw support because a few individuals criticized you, *possibly* with good cause? You'd find it hard to state that you side with the movement, or to actively strive to help Blacks gain equality, just because certain of them embarrassed, upset, or offended you? They don't need to behave perfectly for you to believe in equal rights. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 So ? Are super heroes ugly fat dudes or did I miss something ? This sums up the comic book issue pretty neatly. Being muscular and tall = attractive to women. Men are sexualized just like women are sexualized. Both can use it to their advantage. You think women with broken spines and alien anatomy are physically attractive? Can you give examples? Just imagine that for a little while. How many feminists want to see their man wear a dress? What a lot of people in this thread are saying is, imagine if men were portrayed in this manner -- commonly, as the norm, everywhere you turned. If everywhere, in advertising, in art, in comics, on TV, in movies, in entertainment, the men were partially or completely nude, in sexy, inviting (whether active or passive) poses (though the majority would probably be passive), in odd poses with their butts or chests stuck out, in a state of vulnerable lassitude, with lowered eyes, panting mouths, hard glutes, and perfect pecs. Imagine growing up as a man, with that image of idealized male, the culturally encouraged male, surrounding you on every side. Women aren’t suffering perpetually throughout life. In many cities, young, single women in the U.S. make more than men due to the fact that they have a higher rate of graduating from college. The biggest gap between wages is largely found in baby boomers. For that generation, gender roles were different. Here’s some irony: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/business...&pagewanted=all “In 1970, women reported being slightly happier than men. Today, the two have switched places .” Paradoxical things. It isn't that one image by itself is cause for an outcry. It's that each image is the tip of the iceberg, one more stone in the wall -- it's representative of an underlying norm that is discouraging and harmful, the idea that the gender portrayed is valued primarily for its ability to provide sexual pleasure to the other gender, for its beauty, Since 30000 BC! Manly Lion Venus of Willendorf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Willendorf-Venus-1468.jpg Sexist! Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I really, really don't want to participate in this thread, mainly because I live in a different country from the majority of you guys and so what I say might be a bit "unrealistic" to you people, and also because well, things are very sexist here so it may seem as I'm badmouthing my country when in reality I'm not, but I feel that I have to have my say on this issue. 1. Being muscular and tall = attractive to women. Men are sexualized just like women are sexualized. Both can use it to their advantage. Yes, of course. But we're debating the extent to which the sexes are sexualized, and frankly there's a series of examples that show that women are more sexualized than men. a. in the case of superheroes- do they rip off their shirt and show their abs all the time? No. I don't see Luke Skywalker topless. But we do get to see Leia in her infamous metal bikini. Same with fishnets, stilettoes, unzipped tops, etc. I do see men wearing tight spandex to show of their muscles, but women have spandex+other stuff. Which sometimes are practically useless if you're in a fight. Trust me, you can't run on rooftops with stiletto heels. b. Ugly women are frequently subject to humorous jokes, at least in my country, whereas ugly men are less so. For example, there was this girl who basically said on television that "men who are less than 6 feet tall are losers" or something to that degree. She got an amazing amount of backlash, was basically kicked out of her university and her internship, and still can't get a job. However, ugly women (including fat women) on TV are frequently made fun of, at least in my country. Ugly men, not so much. c. In ads that feature a family, the mother is usually shown as friggin' beautiful. The dad is usually average. This shows that there is a greater emphasis on women to be beautiful even when they're rearing children and sometimes having a job at the same time. This disparity is so great that sometimes I don't think they are in the same age range. I can come up with much more, but it's time for me to sleep, and I can't think of any more off the top of my head at the moment. 2. Can you give examples? There's plenty on the thread. Just look. 3. Women aren’t suffering perpetually throughout life. In many cities, young, single women in the U.S. make more than men due to the fact that they have a higher rate of graduating from college. The biggest gap between wages is largely found in baby boomers. For that generation, gender roles were different. I tend to find that where I live, and in many, many other places across Asia, Latin America, Southern Europe, etc, this participation rate goes down after women give birth to babies. Which is sexist, as they're pressured to go home and take care of the baby. I'd also like a source for your assertion, as it would make for an interesting factoid in my presentation. Not to mention that where I live (ugh I hate saying this...) women are pressured to look good to get a job, i.e. they discriminate on the basis of your looks. Also, wage gaps are a big problem in many, many places across the world, and saying that "All women" aren't suffering perpetually throughout life when you only have an example from a few cities in a specific country is a bit of a stretch. Seriously, body image has become a friggin' big problem in my country and other parts of the-area-where-I-live but no one's taking care of it. We have products that are targeted towards 7 yr olds that say "if you eat this, you'll get a curvy figure!" WTF. 4. Venus of Willendorf She was probably a fertility symbol. As is many other male figures of that era that show enlarged *ahem* man bits. Which is understandable because people those days were very much concerned about fertility and having lots of children and such. For example on a male fertility symbol: Careful! Not office-friendly at all *Disclaimer: Not a part of my culture, so you can't argue that this is specific to some countries.* We don't care that much about having lots of children any more, so if such portrayals are purely based on representing fertility, both women and men wouldn't have to be sexualized any more. Also I do see many images portraying women with huge breasts and behind, but almost none that emphasizes, well, a guy's manly bits. I do see many images of women on ads and such who could, albeit with thinner waist, look like the modern incarnation of Venus of Willendorf but almost no images of men on ads and such that look like...what I've given as an example above. Edited March 22, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Can you give examples? Person trying to emulate cover art for books, males and females Spidergirl diving issues Catwoman anatomy Found via squicky game artist Emma frost: an attempt Taking some classic Jim Balent to task This needs to stop and let me tell you why Are you satisfied for now? EDIT: They're all from links already posted in the thread, may be somewhat not for the children due to the fact that, well, superhero women aren't exactly clad in any way you'd want to see your kids seeing. Edited March 22, 2012 by soullesshuman Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 Up to a point. I defy you to be stronger than my 5 foot tall daughter. Who used to be a bouncer for a shelter for drunks and addicts and believe me.... (she met a 6 foot 6 guy she had thrown out once, in the dark She was a little worried. but he was so scared he muttered "I remember you, you're a *bleep* good bouncer" and slunk away...) The stereotypes often come from the way we are brought up, so that woman don't develop the same musculature as men. We can - we just don't bother. There is a difference between case-by-case and on-the-whole. If we go case-by-case, I will present you with the male, 6'6 bouncers who could make mincemeat of your daughter. Overall, women are physically the weaker sex as a matter of biology, of our base physical make-up. Yes, you can have women stronger than men - there is no disputing that at all. But humans are one of the (rare) cases where males are generally the stronger of the two. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Just wondering, did you ask whoever you were talking to why they were upset with what was said? Because, IME, a lot of times things get said that actually are problematic, either in general or in that specific situation, but the person saying them declares it a non-issue because of their intentions. To be honest, I kind of found this disquieting: Don't worry, they were hypothetical situations based on some of the internal reactions I've seen posted. So far, I've never had a woman get upset over being referred to as in 'You guys'. I think you misunderstood my last sentence; I was not suggesting that I have trouble supporting women's rights because of a select few bias members. Rather, that I find it uncomfortable to stand alongside such people during emotionally, vocally intense situations such as the discussion of how horribly men in general objectify women. Even though I know I am not specifically being called out, it's difficult not to feel awkward when conversations seem to be taking a very anti-men twist. Again, not referring to any particular post here, I'm talking in hypothetical (or real) examples. Edit: After reading further, I'd like to point out that nowhere am I suggesting that supporting women's rights is a 'kindness' or that I should be patted on the back. I feel a whole lot is being assumed and exaggerated from what I simply meant as a "awkward situation" to be in. Edited March 22, 2012 by Nine Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 Don't worry, they were hypothetical situations based on some of the internal reactions I've seen posted. So far, I've never had a woman get upset over being referred to as in 'You guys'. I think you misunderstood my last sentence; I was not suggesting that I have trouble supporting women's rights because of a select few bias members. Rather, that I find it uncomfortable to stand alongside such people during emotionally, vocally intense situations such as the discussion of how horribly men in general objectify women. Even though I know I am not specifically being called out, it's difficult not to feel awkward when conversations seem to be taking a very anti-men twist. Again, not referring to any particular post here, I'm talking in hypothetical (or real) examples. Edit: After reading further, I'd like to point out that nowhere am I suggesting that supporting women's rights is a 'kindness' or that I should be patted on the back. I feel a whole lot is being assumed and exaggerated from what I simply meant as a "awkward situation" to be in. Thank you for clarifying what you meant. See, words matter--what you said was "it's difficult to stand next to" and there can be all manner of reasons why, one of which was the interpretation presented as a possibility, whereas, "I find it uncomfortable and awkward" says exactly what kind of 'difficult' you mean. It's perfectly understandable to feel uncomfortable, I think. It's an uncomfortable situation to be in. The discussion hasn't been anti-men, men are just as much stuck in this rotten situation as women are and it hurts you too! Stand here and be uncomfortable and realize the women you're standing with are very uncomfortable to say the least and that's why we're talking about it. Realize too that the goal is not for you to be hurt to get even, but to make it so BS like this stops hurting all of us. I don't want you to be uncomfortable, but that you are and are saying so means you aren't instantly turning defensive and ignoring everything said. Constructive criticism stings...and that it's stinging you means you're listening, and I'm glad you are. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 ETA: Or you could imagine the vast majority of US video games and comic books with art like this...imagine what it would feel like if everywhere you turned, this kind of thing was all you saw of men: http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=...o+suit#/d30tm0o http://www.petapixel.com/2011/10/04/men-ph...y-female-poses/ Just imagine that for a little while. He's not naked enough to be comparable to comic book women. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 He's not naked enough to be comparable to comic book women. This is Starfire. Drawn as a male. Share this post Link to post
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