Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) He's not naked enough to be comparable to comic book women. True, lolz. Only it's not really funny. I actually left some comments on the image to that effect; that to be a true equivalent, he would need to have: a) a strapless top cleavage (or the top half of his pecs showing, whatever you want to call that) c) naked thighs showing between panties and high boot-tops d) NO helmet -- absolutely not allowed to hide the sexy sexy face or e) flowing waves of Pantene-perfect hair f) flushed cheeks g) full or shapely, rosy lips h) arched feet i) either a come-hither or a very excited expression j) long, dark eyelashes and eyeliner and @soullesshuman's link -- lolz forever. THAT'S what I'm talking about! Much better example of "male equivalent of supah-sexay with weird hip contortions." Edited March 22, 2012 by Kelkelen Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 Yes I do, you know why ? Coz its a comic, there are monsters, people flying and what not, we read comics to escape reality, its a fantasy world, I dont care about relistic bodies coz the concept of comic books is just that - they arent realistic... You want a comic book to portray guys as in those pictures, go ahead and make one, do you really think guys will make a fuss over it ? we will just read other stuff which we enjoy more, its not a big deal.... I'm still puzzled why you find broken bodies sexy, but I'm not a sexual person; maybe it's just a thing. Where did I say I wanted any of that? I asked you to imagine, for a moment, what it would be like if all the comic books and video games were nothing but wall-to-wall stuff like those pictures I linked. What makes you think you would get to just read other stuff? You wouldn't have any other options. If you wanted to read comic books, all you would have would be those kind of comic books, and if you wanted to play video games, all you would have would be those kind of video games. If you didn't enjoy it, well tough luck, because that's all there would be. That's very simplistic, but try to imagine it for a little bit. I am not expecting any particular sort of predetermined response. (And yeah, I think some guys would make a fuss over it if I did make a comic book like that. I really think they would, considering how much of a fuss some guys make about BioWare games choosing to cater to more than just them.) As I am puzzled why do girls need to overanalyze insignificant things, I grab a comic book, I look at the art and whether I like his/her (artist's) style, if the art is sexy then its sexy, I have no need whatsoever to stop on every bloody picture and start examining heroine's/heroe's flexibility levels, they have 5 arms and are shooting laser beams out of their eyes, I couldnt care less if a few images make no physical sense, Im more concerned with - Do I like the art, do I like the story, are characters interesting to me.... As simple as that Ok... first of all it is not true, there are comics for little kids, there are mangas, there are realistic comics, there are super heroes comics, there are graphic novels, there are comics for homosexuals, comics for sadistic people, there is pretty much a genre for everyone out there, so to go and claim how you have no other choices but to read comics with super hot girls is just not true... Never mind all that.... Let's look at your "alt universe" All comics and all video games are showing guys in the manner you have linked us.... What happens next, I buy a comic, I see I no longer love it, I stop buying comics and look for something that will be more appealing to me, the same thing happens with 90% of guys. Result - there are no more comics coz nobody isnt buying them, the only way for comics industry to exist is to give people what they want, sex sells in every industry, its obvious that in comic/video game industry which are based on FANTASY it will be present, its a simple equation of supply and demand, if you dont give people what they want, you will not make money... In a world you have described comics which we want to read will push their way back into society coz thats what we want and nobody cant stop me from drawing what I like.... Take a look at "EXAMPLE". Comic book artists are mainly guys and they draw their fantasies as intended for other guys... Comic books just like any other product are made for a certain niche market and as such they supply us (buyers) with what we want, otherwise we wont buy the product... Lets take something we have all in common, Dragon cave. I think that dragons should be much more vicious instead of being somewhat mushy as they are in DC, are there girls who agree with me ? yes there are (but not many), is it reasonable for me to make a fuss about it when all artists are girls, when more than 80% of the players are also girls ? No its not, DC gives people what they want hence the game is a bit female oriented, makes sense considering the fact that majority of players are females....If I have a problem with that, I can stop playing the game, nobody isnt forcing me into it.... Simple as that... The fuss you are talking about is about fanboys who dont like what has been done to "their" game, I never played ME I couldnt care less about the changes done there, however lets talk again in 2 months and I promise you I will probably have a rant or two about Diablo 3 coz I played it 15 years ago, its part of my childhood and I am emotionally invested... Those examples however dont apply here at all coz its not like you grew up reading wonder woman comics and after 10 years someone decided to make wonder woman into a sex hottie unlike the realistic chubby girl she was while you were reading the comic.... Magazines with naked dudes... Not meant for me I dont read them nor find them to be offensive one bit, if they exist obviously there is a demand for them.... Im cool with that.... Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) As I am puzzled why do girls need to overanalyze insignificant things, Please don't tell me that not only am *I* overanalyzing something trivial, but that my whole sex/gender group does the same thing as a matter of nature. >_< Plus, I'm not a girl; I'm a grown woman. I think my "art history" post above helps support the argument that the constantly-sexualized portrayal of women *is* significant. The issue isn't really that "sex sells," or that one image or comic is bad, or that people can't draw or fantasize about whatever they choose. The issue is that our culture sends us the *constant* message that women are men's sex toys. That they are supposed to be, and should strive to be, and there is no place for them if they aren't. There's a double standard which your post even indirectly indicates. You say, "if you don't give people what they want, you will not make money." The truth is, if you don't give *men* what they want, you will not make money. If you don't give women what they want... well, that's nothing new. As for "sex sells," the *majority* of the time, the sex being sold is a sexy woman, not a sexy man. (Go on, type "reclining nude" into an image search! Or even "sexy ad!" Or, heaven forbid, "porn." How many of the images in any of those three searches focus on a man?) If you read the link to the blog where the woman emulated the bookcover poses, you'll see that even on the covers of the books *aimed at women, with a majority readership of women, and with female main characters,* the art is still typical Playboy stuff. It's become our society's shorthand for "what a woman looks like" -- apparently, everyone assumes it's just plain normal for all images of women to be in scantily-clad, sexualized, submissive/weak/improbable poses, with insanely thin/contorted/curvy/gravity-defying figures. In an earlier post, fuzzbucket pointed out that, in at least one instance, when men complained about a pornographic or titillating magazine publication aimed at women, saying it made them feel inferior and uncomfortable and caused them to compare themselves to an impossible ideal, those publications were pulled from the market. It didn't matter what the female buyers wanted. (It's possible that the underlying reason was that, even though several erotic magazines are ostensibly aimed at women, they realize they have a gay male readership, and wanted to accomodate their male readers more than their female ones. Very interesting article on a history of pornography aimed at women, along with loads of statistics, here: http://www.msnaughty.com/pornforwomen/ ) Yes, of course, if you dislike one specific comic/movie/book, you can just move on. The issue is what happens when the majority of media take an offensive or damaging perspective, and even if you disagree with it or hate it, it's impossible to avoid, because it's your cultural norm. Edited March 22, 2012 by Kelkelen Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 That's a rather rude generalization, there. Please don't tell me that not only am *I* overanalyzing something trivial, but that my whole sex/gender group does the same thing as a matter of nature. >_< I think my "art history" post above helps support the argument that the constantly-sexualized portrayal of women *is* significant. The issue isn't really that "sex sells," or that one image or comic is bad, or that people can't draw or fantasize about whatever they choose. The issue is that our culture sends us the *constant* message that women are men's sex toys. That they are supposed to be, and should strive to be, and there is no place for them if they aren't. There's a double standard which your post even indirectly indicates. You say, "if you don't give people what they want, you will not make money." The truth is, if you don't give *men* what they want, you will not make money. If you don't give women what they want... well, that's nothing new. As for "sex sells," the *majority* of the time, the sex being sold is a sexy woman, not a sexy man. (Go on, type "reclining nude" into an image search! Or even "sexy ad!" Or, heaven forbid, "porn." How many of the images in any of those three searches focus on a man?) If you read the link to the blog where the woman emulated the bookcover poses, you'll see that even on the covers of the books *aimed at women, with a majority readership of women, and with female main characters,* the art is still typical Playboy stuff. It's become our society's shorthand for "what a woman looks like" -- apparently, everyone assumes it's just plain normal for all images of women to be in scantily-clad, sexualized, submissive/weak/improbable poses, with insanely thin/contorted/curvy/gravity-defying figures. In an earlier post, fuzzbucket pointed out that, in at least one instance, when men complained about a pornographic or titillating magazine publication aimed at women, saying it made them feel inferior and uncomfortable and caused them to compare themselves to an impossible ideal, those publications were pulled from the market. It didn't matter what the female buyers wanted. (It's possible that the underlying reason was that, even though several erotic magazines are ostensibly aimed at women, they realize they have a gay male readership, and wanted to accomodate their male readers more than their female ones. Very interesting article on a history of pornography aimed at women, along with loads of statistics, here: http://www.msnaughty.com/pornforwomen/ ) Yes, of course, if you dislike one specific comic/movie/book, you can just move on. The issue is what happens when the majority of media take an offensive or damaging perspective, and even if you disagree with it or hate it, it's impossible to avoid, because it's your cultural norm. First of all Im not familiar with female superheroines that are weak or submissive, most of them are in fact strong independent woman who beath the living crap out of guys... Im generalizing things as seen here, opening doors for me is so sexist, giving me his jacket when Im cold is so sexist, not fighting girls is so sexist, please give me a break, I approch the door I open it and let people through if there are some near by, if I see some from a few feet away getting closer I'll leave my right hand behind holding the door untill they can hold it for themselves, holding doors for girls or other people is called manners not sexism in what universe would I analyze you holding the door for me as a sexist gesture or a power play, thanks Kelkelen is what I would say coz its a bloody nice thing to do instead of shuting the door in my face... Girl pushups, you cry like a girl.. all those really annoy you and then you bring a sexist story about how your sister started crying coz her date wouldnt let her pay.. Hey Kelkelen !!! proper response - look dude, you're both not listening to me and are making me feel uncomfortable so either you change the attitude or Im walking, if he doesnt, she walks away and there is no second date.. instead she starts crying and then you wonder how come people say sexist stuff such as "you cry like a little girl".... Kelkelen, here's a funny fact, of course your art history supports that, do you know why ? Well coz women indeed were men's sex toys, a decade ago you had no vote rights at all, things are changing, it will take time, but dont blame only men for something women play into themselves... Ohh please, sex doesnt sell for women, tell that to every screaming fangirl that faints when Justin (pick one) enters the scene, yup its coz his music is so damn amazing, How many porn magazines do you own ? Would you really claim boldly that women buy just as many porn magazines/dvds as men do ? If women dont get what they want, women wont buy the product just as men, if they buy the product even though its not what they really want, thats their own mistake.... I dont know what you're takling about, my girlfriend was always into some romantic novels, those never had a playboy bunny with huge boobs on the cover but instead sunrises and sensual couples, hot girl and a hot guy on it.... Ohh come on, girls can get their hands on porn magazines only coz there are gay men out there, is that what you seriously think ? Media is damaging period, since our society turned into a bunch of mindless celebrity obsessed retards, sex sells for both genders, do me a favor, look at the current movie box office... give me a second to take a look... 21 jump street, fat guy who is there so somebody can be made fun of and a shocker a hot guy who just cant act... moving on, place 2 animated movie....place 3 John Carter... yup another hot guy with a six pack and 2 hrs of shirtless action... btw can't act either.. and I can keep going but its pretty damn obvious that most of the actors you will find in top movies will be young, extremely hot and very mediocre in acting... so yeah,,, it is the cultural norm for both genders... And we have nobody to blame but ourselves Share this post Link to post
Posted March 22, 2012 This is Starfire. Drawn as a male. Knew there had to be an example somewhere. Thankies. :> Note that I use generic you below, because it's hard to write otherwise. =p And now that I have time to tackle this, I want to address it: Opening doors is sexist, giving my jacket to a girl when she's cold is sexist, not punching a girl just coz she's a girl is sexist, drawing sexy girls is sexist... Let's be frank for a second, most of you will find sexism in everything, can you answer me why are you constantly looking for it in (excuse my French) really dumb places ? People who are happy rarely get into overanalyzing stuff that much, Sexism is a big problem and when it comes to workplace, salaries, decision makings its major but all this rant about door opening, comic books, girl pushups... It's so frustrating that those are the places you would choose to go to... Warning for language: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/200...-for-stuff.html I ended up quoting most of that, but I bolded the one quote you should really, really read, because it explains the crux of what I want to say really, really well. For a start, misogyny is so pervasive that no one has to look for it. Treating sexism as though it is indigenous to any singular demographic, or unique combination of traits—or, the flipside of that equation, regarding any demographic as wholly devoid of entrenched misogyny—is both foolhardy and inaccurate. And, more to the point, irrelevant Telling women that they should merely abstain from reading and/or participating in YouTube threads—or other places online and offline plagued by unfettered misogyny—is akin to telling women their choices are to tolerate sexual harassment in order to participate in it, or segregate themselves and necessarily limit their opportunities in the public sphere. In addition to unfairly punishing women, that's also a tacit endorsement of openly expressed misogyny. No matter how authentic the genuine feelings of concern that may motivate such a recommendation, when someone advises a woman to disengage herself from a public space in which misogyny is rampant, one also necessarily, if unintentionally, communicates the message that her contributions to that space are not valuable enough to fight to protect. By slow increments, every unmonitored space thusly becomes uninhabitable by any woman not willing to suffer—and indulge—misogynist bullies. [Note: I recognize this experience can be true for GBTQ men, men of color, disabled men, etc., too, depending on the forum.] Bolding this, because the following is the most important part, IMO: The truth is, if I actually spent my days actively paying attention to every example of misogyny around me, I would be a profoundly unhappy woman. Not ** or grumpy or short-tempered, but paralyzingly depressed. Women have to train themselves to avoid consciously reacting to every bit of misogynistic detritus permeating the culture through which we all move, lest they go quite insane. I write about the things I can't not write about. If I wrote about all the examples of sexism I see every day, I'd never sleep. If you read no other quotes, please read the above one. Tangentially, the idea that addressing "the little things," like being told to smile or misogynistic t-shirts, somehow demeans feminism or distracts from "real" or "serious" sexism is utterly, completely, devilishly wrong. Feminism seeks to address all manner of issues, big and small. That women can (and do) utilize the tenets of feminism in every aspect of their lives does not undermine the history of the feminist movement, but instead does it a great honor. Feminism was never meant to be restricted to suffrage and equal pay, held in reserve like a finite quantity that could run out if it's used for "the little things." Feminism is a renewable resource. The idea that feminism should be kept under glass, broken only in case of a "real" and "serious" emergency, is predicated on the erroneous assumption that "the little things" happen in a void, as do, presumably, the "real" and "serious" things, when, in reality, they are interwoven strands of the same rope. And as soon as one begins to judge the worthiness of feminists' attention on a sliding scale, even generally-regarded "serious issues" like equal pay are dwarfed by global concerns like sex trafficking or government-sanctioned use of rape as a tool of war. It doesn't have to be one or the other—feminists can multi-task. And, in a very real way, ignoring "the little things" in favor of "the big stuff" makes the big stuff that much harder to eradicate, because it is the pervasive, ubiquitous, inescapable little things that create the foundation of a sexist culture on which the big stuff is dependent for its survival. It's the little things, the constant drumbeat of inequality and objectification, that inure us to increasingly horrible acts and attitudes toward women. Irrespective of intent, the recommendation to "ignore the little stuff," so often intertwined with accusations of looking for things about which to get offended, is not just ill-advised, but counter to the ultimate goal of full equality. It's like a knife in my gut when I see feminists accusing other feminists of "hurting the cause" by focusing on "the little stuff," because that's It—that's the stuff, that's the fertile soil in which everything else takes root and from whence everything else springs, that's the way that the fundamental idea that women are not equal to men is conveyed over and over and over again. Which, quite frankly, means that if even we had to look for it, we'd be right to do so. End of that article. My reply is really to both of the quotes from users, so one reply may bleed into my reply for the other quote. I am seriously saying that instead of discussing serious matters and there are plenty of those when it comes to sexism most of the people are using this thread as a rant all you can about really not that significant things, and Im seriously saying that when one says "guy offering me a jacket on a cold night is sexism", "guy holding the door open for me is sexism" and a whole bunch of other examples WELL, that's not thinking about it, its more like overanalyzing every little thing while looking for the negative... people who constantly keep looking for negative aspects instead of positive ones are rarely happy. Well. Who is anybody to control anybody else? Why can't I complain about all the tons of little sexist things I see around me that people think are not sexist? Who is anybody to tell me I can't be offended by something? That I can't discuss it because there are 'bigger' things to be upset about? Why should we ignore issues because there may be something with worse consequences out there? How can I ever begin to work towards gender equality if I settle for the discriminatory actions around me every single day and don't work towards changing attitudes? Too often people are called "sensitive" and told to "get over it". Well. Isn't that just incredibly rude? When confronted with someone telling you an action is offensive to them, if you truly meant no harm, then why can't you buck up and apologize. "I didn't mean it like that; I'm truly sorry. Have a nice day." Why is that so hard? What gives that person the right to say "well, I don't find it offensive, so obviously no one else can. I don't find it offensive, and my opinion is better than yours." By putting people down when they say "that is offensive" or "that offended me" or whatever, you are saying their opinion means nothing. Yours is better because you are more important. Everyone, at some point in time, is going to be confronted about something they did or said that someone finds offensive. I think it says a lot more about us by the way we react than what we did in the first place (in every day generic scenarios - not talking about catastrophic or extreme acts such as murder). It's easy to not realize what things may not be offensive when they're not things that impact us individually. And that's okay! That's how it is. But when you do something and someone gets offended by it, well, then you should apologize and watch doing that again. It's something you should stop and take the time to evaluate. If you truly meant no harm in opening the door and someone snaps at you for doing so? What does it hurt you to say 'perhaps they are onto something here', apologize, re-evaluate, and consciously watch your attitude next time you open a door for someone. Perhaps that person was just having a hard day and was tired of people thinking they couldn't take care of themselves or perhaps you opened the door and loomed over the person and leered at them as they walked inside. If you truly meant no harm, then the other person's opinion should matter. However, if you open a door, and expect this person to be gratuitous towards you and perhaps to owe you something? Well, that doesn't really seem like you meant no harm, does it? is it reasonable for me to make a fuss about it when all artists are girls I just want to point out that DC is run by a male admin and we do have male artists. Cort, Particle, Pa Tone, Shiro - all boys. They are certainly not in the majority, but sites on the internet tend to be either mostly girls or mostly boys (or perceived that way, anyway), rather than a balance between them. I'm sure I could look further into that and give some reason why but I don't feel like it and I doubt you were looking for something like that to read. =p ~ Also, everything Kelkelen said in the above post. <3 Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 As I am puzzled why do girls need to overanalyze insignificant things Wait, wut? So you think I'm over-analyzing what to you is an insignificant thing (when what I'm actually doing is posting links to stuff that is being critical of an aspect of something you enjoy), and therefore all young females under the age of 18 (or so) now need to over-analyze insignificant things? Or are you calling me all girls everywhere? Hold your horses there, bucko, I'm just one woman. Not a girl, haven't been one of those for quite a few years. [...] Never mind all that.... Let's look at your "alt universe" All comics and all video games are showing guys in the manner you have linked us.... What happens next, I buy a comic, I see I no longer love it, I stop buying comics and look for something that will be more appealing to me, the same thing happens with 90% of guys. [...] Wait! You are under the impression, in this alternate universe, that you have power to change the situation. You have nothing else to buy. No one even considers making anything else, for any reason. So, you stop buying it. OK, cool. But it's still out there. Someone else, apparently, is buying it. That's all there is. You and 90% of guys now have no comic books to read and no video games to play. And it's still out there. Nothing changed. That's all there is. It's on TV, in movies, in ads. They use those kind of images of men to sell cars in this world. And they don't stop just because you stopped buying cars. It's still there. Everywhere you turn. Imagine how that feels, for a moment. The fuss you are talking about is about fanboys who dont like what has been done to "their" game, I never played ME I couldnt care less about the changes done there Your telepathy is failing you, given that I was thinking specifically about the fuss in regards to Dragon Age catering to more than just straight dudes. It wasn't changes. It was the abominable, hideous fact that the game had romance options for le gasp! gay men! Horrors!! A whole lot of straight dudes got their boxers in a bunch that a game could possibly have content that wasn't targeted solely at them. Seriously, the guys I'm talking about couldn't even stand to share. True, lolz. Only it's not really funny. I actually left some comments on the image to that effect; that to be a true equivalent, he would need to have: A comment on "Zero Suit Master Chief"? That was a take off on Zero Suit Samus, a video game character. She usually is a total badass female character decked out in some impressive armor, but they decided to make a game where she lost her outer armor and had to use her ''zero suit' which was...well, blue leotards with boots. That art is a riff on the official art of Samus in her zero suit. Three guesses what armor Samus is most often portrayed in in fan art now that there is an official catsuit for her, first two don't count. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Knew there had to be an example somewhere. Thankies. :> Note that I use generic you below, because it's hard to write otherwise. =p And now that I have time to tackle this, I want to address it: Warning for language: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/200...-for-stuff.html I ended up quoting most of that, but I bolded the one quote you should really, really read, because it explains the crux of what I want to say really, really well. Bolding this, because the following is the most important part, IMO: If you read no other quotes, please read the above one. End of that article. My reply is really to both of the quotes from users, so one reply may bleed into my reply for the other quote. Well. Who is anybody to control anybody else? Why can't I complain about all the tons of little sexist things I see around me that people think are not sexist? Who is anybody to tell me I can't be offended by something? That I can't discuss it because there are 'bigger' things to be upset about? Why should we ignore issues because there may be something with worse consequences out there? How can I ever begin to work towards gender equality if I settle for the discriminatory actions around me every single day and don't work towards changing attitudes? Too often people are called "sensitive" and told to "get over it". Well. Isn't that just incredibly rude? When confronted with someone telling you an action is offensive to them, if you truly meant no harm, then why can't you buck up and apologize. "I didn't mean it like that; I'm truly sorry. Have a nice day." Why is that so hard? What gives that person the right to say "well, I don't find it offensive, so obviously no one else can. I don't find it offensive, and my opinion is better than yours." By putting people down when they say "that is offensive" or "that offended me" or whatever, you are saying their opinion means nothing. Yours is better because you are more important. Everyone, at some point in time, is going to be confronted about something they did or said that someone finds offensive. I think it says a lot more about us by the way we react than what we did in the first place (in every day generic scenarios - not talking about catastrophic or extreme acts such as murder). It's easy to not realize what things may not be offensive when they're not things that impact us individually. And that's okay! That's how it is. But when you do something and someone gets offended by it, well, then you should apologize and watch doing that again. It's something you should stop and take the time to evaluate. If you truly meant no harm in opening the door and someone snaps at you for doing so? What does it hurt you to say 'perhaps they are onto something here', apologize, re-evaluate, and consciously watch your attitude next time you open a door for someone. Perhaps that person was just having a hard day and was tired of people thinking they couldn't take care of themselves or perhaps you opened the door and loomed over the person and leered at them as they walked inside. If you truly meant no harm, then the other person's opinion should matter. However, if you open a door, and expect this person to be gratuitous towards you and perhaps to owe you something? Well, that doesn't really seem like you meant no harm, does it? I just want to point out that DC is run by a male admin and we do have male artists. Cort, Particle, Pa Tone, Shiro - all boys. They are certainly not in the majority, but sites on the internet tend to be either mostly girls or mostly boys (or perceived that way, anyway), rather than a balance between them. I'm sure I could look further into that and give some reason why but I don't feel like it and I doubt you were looking for something like that to read. =p ~ Also, everything Kelkelen said in the above post. <3 Regarding the wall of paper.. Im sorry I just cant read all of that as its not even something you have written, If you put effort into writing stuff yourself I'll read it, quoting others is just not my thing, I think you are capable of expressing yourself nicely without the use of copy paste, I did read the last one which you said is important and.... agreed, if you look for it you will find it everywhere, the same applies to guys, blacks, homosexuals and everybody else with insecurities, thats what I said actually.. to look at everything through the looking glass is extremely hard and one will always find what he's looking for, eventually the person doing so is the only one being harmed.... Nobody controls anything, of course you can complain about whatever you want to, however isnt there a ranting thread for that ? I was merely saying that sexism is a big problem and instead discussing important issues, philosophical aspects or why did the problem occur at all adn how can it be solved, the thread about sexism looks like a ranting thread and when its about girl pushups, opening doors, its like taking a serious issue and making it into a laughable one IMO.... Wait a second, first of all I have no problems apologizing to anybody when I hurt their feelings, even when the reason is retarded IMO (example - I apologized to my girlfriend for being mean to her in a dream, I have no idea what I did but I apologized coz she was upset and it made her feel better) second of all in the door case you're describing, if I have held the door open for you and you : 1. Said to me, look I understand the gesture was meant in a nice way but it makes me feel really uncomfortable, and hurts me as I see it a sexist gesture - I will look at you like WTF coz frankly I wold be surprised, three seconds later I would say "Im sorry, I had no idea you might feel that way, I just think its rude to close the door in someones face, if I have offended you I apologize, it wasnt my intention" I will however never stop holding the doors open for other people, unless I see you again in which case I will avoid it... 2. Snapped at me, yelling at me for holding the door open for you, not only that I wouldnt dream of apologizing to you, I would consider you an extremely rude person, I dont care what your day was like up untill that point, if you stop to yell at a person you dont even know for something as holding the door open for you, I would show you right there what snapping at someone really looks like Which dragons were made by male artists ? How many ? Are you seriously saying that DC isnt more female than male oriented game or are you only arguing for the sake of arguing ? Edited March 23, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 First of all Im not familiar with female superheroines that are weak or submissive, most of them are in fact strong independent woman who beath the living crap out of guys... Hey Kelkelen !!! proper response - look dude, you're both not listening to me and are making me feel uncomfortable so either you change the attitude or Im walking, if he doesnt, she walks away and there is no second date.. instead she starts crying and then you wonder how come people say sexist stuff such as "you cry like a little girl".... I'm not saying that the superheroines *are* weak and submissive, but that the *images* of them sometimes imply that -- also, I don't think the majority of them are pictured that way, so much as pictured as hyper-sexualized all the time; and they *are* submissive as portrayed in their romances. So if a woman is made so uncomfortable and unhappy that she starts to cry, that makes her worthy of your disdain? Hello? Crying is a natural reaction, and involuntary! The young woman in question hadn't slept all night, and she most certainly *did* say your "proper response" to the guys, who still wouldn't shut up. Of course there was no second date. But that doesn't change the fact that the guy was trying to manipulate and shame her, and wanted her to feel indebted to him, and the other guy jumped on the bandwagon. Insulting people for crying, seeing crying as weak, and suggesting that women are weaker because they are genetically more likely to cry, is just flat-out unfair. The fact that my sister shed tears doesn't detract from the fact that she told the guy clearly and firmly what she wanted, or that she's a strong person. It only indicates that he most certainly was upsetting her. Shame on you for turning around and blaming *her* for perpetuating sexism by crying! Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 I will reply to the rest later once I finish my homework. Replying to this since I can do it quickly. Which dragons were made by male artists ? How many ? Are you seriously saying that DC isnt more female than male oriented game or are you only arguing for the sake of arguing ? Uh, are you reading what I wrote? Or perhaps picking and choosing? o_O I just want to point out that DC is run by a male admin and we do have male artists. Cort, Particle, Pa Tone, Shiro - all boys. [/b]They are certainly not in the majority[/b], but sites on the internet tend to be either mostly girls or mostly boys (or perceived that way, anyway), rather than a balance between them. I'm sure I could look further into that and give some reason why but I don't feel like it and I doubt you were looking for something like that to read. =p Underlined - Would you like me to actually write that out? Adoptables/pet site/click site games, in my experience, tend to draw more girls than boys. I wasn't saying it didn't. I actually said nothing on the subject except for noting that forums usually have way more of one gender than the other rather than a balance. Bolded - You said all the artists were boys. I was pointing out they weren't. If you want to know which dragons: nilia, pillow, seasonals, dorsals, balloons are all things done by males on my list, just off the top of my head. You can see credits on the bottom of all the dragon's pages. Just look for the names I mentioned and you can see which ones were done by who. To clarify with full usernames: Corteo, Particle Soup, Shiro Shitoro Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Wait, wut? So you think I'm over-analyzing what to you is an insignificant thing (when what I'm actually doing is posting links to stuff that is being critical of an aspect of something you enjoy), and therefore all young females under the age of 18 (or so) now need to over-analyze insignificant things? Or are you calling me all girls everywhere? Hold your horses there, bucko, I'm just one woman. Not a girl, haven't been one of those for quite a few years. Already answered to Kelkelen to what was I referring when I used the problematic phrase of girls over-anlayzing stuff, whoever got offended by it, I apologize, didnt mean to generalize nor hurt anyone's feelings... You asked about a question about comics I answered what is it that we find interesting in comics, from what I understood you dont read comics, you are not familiar with super heroines nor how they are portrayed, you dont care about the story, the art, and even thuogh the entire topic is fantasy where people have 16 arms and many other things, the thing that bugs you the most is that a few poses were overly flexible... If out of the entire comic book a few unrealistic poses is your main issue, I find it extremely petty... Wait! You are under the impression, in this alternate universe, that you have power to change the situation. You have nothing else to buy. No one even considers making anything else, for any reason. Already explained to you that people will still be interested in drawing certain things and since there still is demand for the product (even thoug it no longer exists) it will resurface and the situation will change.... So, you stop buying it. OK, cool. But it's still out there. Someone else, apparently, is buying it. That's all there is. You and 90% of guys now have no comic books to read and no video games to play. And it's still out there. Nothing changed. That's all there is. It's on TV, in movies, in ads. They use those kind of images of men to sell cars in this world. And they don't stop just because you stopped buying cars. It's still there. Everywhere you turn. Imagine how that feels, for a moment. I have already explained how things work in business, the product is not out there hoping that someone will buy it, it works the other way around, first there is a demand for the product then the supply is made... comic books are created in a way that will adress buyers needs so even if what you say is right and indeed those "alt" comics are selling to someone, there still is an unsatisfied client pool whihc consists of me and 90% of other guys, we all have money and we are willing to spend it, which means the product will be made for us, thats how business works, where there is demand there will be product thats why I said our reading material will find a way to come back coz there is a lot of potential buyers, its a business opportunity.... I'll explain in other context, Im not really familiar with girl magazines, i know that my girl reads vogue (I think its called, from time to time) as it seems it has things she likes, and its mainly aimed at women, guys dont read that magazine, lets say all those "magazines for girls" are replaced by some horror slashing stories or sadistic torture stories (anything that's repulsive really) women will stop reading it, the so called women magazines will no longer have readers and will fail, and even if they do have readers and they keep making money, there will still be 80% of girls who want magazines as vogue and have no product but loads of money to spend, that is unralistic scenario coz as I have said already if there is demand someone will make that magazine again, giving girls what they want to read... basic business 1 on 1.... Your telepathy is failing you, given that I was thinking specifically about the fuss in regards to Dragon Age catering to more than just straight dudes. It wasn't changes. It was the abominable, hideous fact that the game had romance options for le gasp! gay men! Horrors!! A whole lot of straight dudes got their boxers in a bunch that a game could possibly have content that wasn't targeted solely at them. Seriously, the guys I'm talking about couldn't even stand to share. First of all, ME character (Sheppard or something) was involved in a homosexual relationship in ME3 which was released a few weeks ago, fans went crazy over it, so my telepathy is kinda on point there... I just got the wrong game... but the fuss over ME is louder than over dragon age... Second of all, I loved dragon age origins and I dont play many games, I hated dragon age 2 though and I rally do hope that dragon age 3 will be more than a money milking machine, furthermore I downloaded the patch allowing free love, in which the hetrosexual characters could also have gay sex (female on female, male on male) coz some men arent insecure about their sexuality, the more options are available the richer the game is IMO... So if a woman is made so uncomfortable and unhappy that she starts to cry, that makes her worthy of your disdain? Hello? Crying is a natural reaction, and involuntary! The young woman in question hadn't slept all night, and she most certainly *did* say your "proper response" to the guys, who still wouldn't shut up. Of course there was no second date. But that doesn't change the fact that the guy was trying to manipulate and shame her, and wanted her to feel indebted to him, and the other guy jumped on the bandwagon. Insulting people for crying, seeing crying as weak, and suggesting that women are weaker because they are genetically more likely to cry, is just flat-out unfair. The fact that my sister shed tears doesn't detract from the fact that she told the guy clearly and firmly what she wanted, or that she's a strong person. It only indicates that he most certainly was upsetting her. Shame on you for turning around and blaming *her* for perpetuating sexism by crying! Worthy of my disdain ? Not really I think that allowing yourself to cry in front of others is a brave thing, I cant do it. You're missing the point I'm making, cartain things which you guys find to be sexist are a direct result of how girls respond in certain situations, girls are more sensitive than guys and their responses accordingly, yet if someone says "you're as sensitive as a girl" you will find the statement to be sexist, even though as you have said it yourself women are genetically more likely to cry hence indeed more sensitive... I've heard countless times girls tell other girls coz of various things "you're such a guy" which should be a sexist thing to say... yet nor do we nor do you care about it that much... I find all that extremely funny thats all Underlined - Would you like me to actually write that out? Adoptables/pet site/click site games, in my experience, tend to draw more girls than boys. I wasn't saying it didn't. I actually said nothing on the subject except for noting that forums usually have way more of one gender than the other rather than a balance. Bolded - You said all the artists were boys. I was pointing out they weren't. If you want to know which dragons: nilia, pillow, seasonals, dorsals, balloons are all things done by males on my list, just off the top of my head. You can see credits on the bottom of all the dragon's pages. Just look for the names I mentioned and you can see which ones were done by who. To clarify with full usernames: Corteo, Particle Soup, Shiro Shitoro Was under impression all are girls coz all holidays were made by girls, guess I was wrong regarding that..... Edited March 23, 2012 by NixAyum Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Already answered to Kelkelen to what was I referring when I used the problematic phrase of girls over-anlayzing stuff, whoever got offended by it, I apologize, didnt mean to generalize nor hurt anyone's feelings... Thank you. You asked about a question about comics I answered what is it that we find interesting in comics, No I didn't. from what I understood you dont read comics, What gives you that impression? you are not familiar with super heroines nor how they are portrayed, Why do you say that? you dont care about the story, the art, and even thuogh the entire topic is fantasy where people have 16 arms and many other things, the thing that bugs you the most is that a few poses were overly flexible... You didn't even read the link soullesshuman posted where a professional contortionist said, "Stop that, even I can't do this," did you? There is a difference between Richard Reed and a broken spine. If out of the entire comic book a few unrealistic poses is your main issue, I find it extremely petty... I posted a couple links and you deduced all this about me? taps Evil Doer's mind reading device, it appears to be on the fritz Already explained to you that people will still be interested in drawing certain things and since there still is demand for the product (even thoug it no longer exists) it will resurface and the situation will change.... And what people do by themselves for their own amusement, of their own choice, was not what I was getting at. I have already explained how things work in business, the product is not out there hoping that someone will buy it [...] ...Wait, you think in this hypothetical world that I suggested in an attempt to try to give you a chance to imagine a world where your gender is objectified constantly and relentlessly, that just because you wouldn't buy it that no one would buy it? That just because men wouldn't buy it that no one would? Sir, I tell you now: WOMEN EXIST. We have money and are willing to spend it. There are a lot of women comic book and video game fans out there...but somehow, the industry just is not that interested in giving us what we want. Mostly because the men whine so loud when it tries. See: straight male whining about romance options in Dragon Age. Here's the thing you need to understand: Comic books and video games are enjoyed by women. That's one reason why women even see themselves being relentlessly objectified in these mediums. I don't go looking for unrealistically inhuman broken-spined bubble-boobs and butts women in video games, they're right there when I go to play! (Please do not take that to mean that women want relentlessly objectified men as far as the eye can see. Some would think that mighty fine, but not all.) First of all, ME character (Sheppard or something) was involved in a homosexual relationship in ME3 which was released a few weeks ago, fans went crazy over it, so my telepathy is kinda on point there... I just got the wrong game... but the fuss over ME is louder than over dragon age... Yeah they were, which was more of straight male dudes not wanting to share the catering with anyone. I have no idea why those particular dudes find it so threatening to realize they aren't the only people in the universe. That's something related to sexism, though isn't it exactly. Dunno why it is relevant what you think of DA and DA2, but since you said, I didn't really care for DA2 either. the more options are available the richer the game is IMO... Exactly! This times a zillion! Now if this was just something that was taken to heart in more than just BioWare games...like, say, comic book depictions of women... Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Was under impression all are girls coz all holidays were made by girls, guess I was wrong regarding that..... Oooooooh, okay, I see where that came from! Regarding the wall of paper.. Im sorry I just cant read all of that as its not even something you have written, If you put effort into writing stuff yourself I'll read it, quoting others is just not my thing, I think you are capable of expressing yourself nicely without the use of copy paste, Okay. Fair enough, I suppose. Most of what was said I did say in reply to your second quote, but I feel like reiterating, so: Misogyny is everywhere. If you don't see it, then it is because you are not looking, not that 'us feminists' are looking everywhere for it. If we just avoided places that were sexist we'd have no place to go. It also wouldn't be addressing the problem or doing anything about it. And why shouldn't I have a right to be on x forum without feeling harassed? The little things matter, so why can't we address them? They are the crux of the problem and help to spread the underlying sexist attitude virtually everywhere. If we can't address the crux of the problem, there is no point. Besides, if it matters to me, what's wrong with me addressing it? Is my opinion worth nothing? Misogyny is not just a problem when it is "big". That's along the lines of saying we shouldn't do anything about bullies on the playground because that's just small scale and kids will be kids and don't we want to stop wars and people like Kony, since that's bigger? I did read the last one which you said is important and.... agreed, if you look for it you will find it everywhere, the same applies to guys, blacks, homosexuals and everybody else with insecurities, thats what I said actually.. to look at everything through the looking glass is extremely hard and one will always find what he's looking for, eventually the person doing so is the only one being harmed.... So because it's too big of a job we just shouldn't care? D: Trust me, we do filter. I cannot possibly tackle all the sexist, racist, anti-gay, sizeist, classist, ableist, whatever else issues I see. Yes, it's a hard job and some days I just want to hide under my covers and cry and eat ice cream and watch movies and ignore the world, but I won't give up, because these things directly and negatively affect me, my friends, my family, my boyfriend, and people all over the world. If we all just tackle some things when we can and when we see it, well, then we can make a change. And isn't that worth it? Nobody controls anything, of course you can complain about whatever you want to, however isnt there a ranting thread for that ? I was merely saying that sexism is a big problem and instead discussing important issues, philosophical aspects or why did the problem occur at all adn how can it be solved, the thread about sexism looks like a ranting thread and when its about girl pushups, opening doors, its like taking a serious issue and making it into a laughable one IMO.... I am not ranting. I am pointing out perverse and serious issues in society relating to sexism, as I can in the sexism thread. What can I change if I just go rant to myself rather than speaking up? How else can I bring up issues but to bring them up and say what's wrong with them? A rant would be: "Ugh, why do you do this to me!? You don't respect me because I am a girl and I'M TIRED OF IT. UGGGGGGGGH. GET OVER YOURSELF." The posts in this thread may not be the calmest, but they are directly relevant to this thread. We have been discussing and debating and sharing, not just ranting about our lives. I think there's a problem when we can say 'there is something wrong with calling knee push-ups girl push-ups since this not so subtly implies that girls are so much weaker they obviously can't do the same things as men' and not be taken seriously. 1. Said to me, look I understand the gesture was meant in a nice way but it makes me feel really uncomfortable, and hurts me as I see it a sexist gesture - I will look at you like WTF coz frankly I wold be surprised, three seconds later I would say "Im sorry, I had no idea you might feel that way, I just think its rude to close the door in someones face, if I have offended you I apologize, it wasnt my intention" I will however never stop holding the doors open for other people, unless I see you again in which case I will avoid it... 2. Snapped at me, yelling at me for holding the door open for you, not only that I wouldnt dream of apologizing to you, I would consider you an extremely rude person, I dont care what your day was like up untill that point, if you stop to yell at a person you dont even know for something as holding the door open for you, I would show you right there what snapping at someone really looks like I used snapped because I wasn't sure what other word to use there at the time (brain fart D: ). I did want something neutral that just simply meant 'expressed distaste for your actions/attitude/something'. Sorry about that. 1. Well, the reply is kind of passive-aggressive "I just think its rude to close the door in someones face" since I doubt that's what the offended party was offended at. If you're apologizing, you should just apologize, not 'faux-apologize'. ;3 2. Fair enough. (Though, and just my philosophy - what's the point of snapping back? If you had a bad day and inadvertently snapped at the person who happened to be the straw breaking the camel's back, wouldn't it make you feel better if the other person just backed off and apologized? Perhaps that's all you needed to make your day better and you and the other person could both end up apologizing for whatever rudeness there was, rather than getting into a yelling match that will probably ruin both of your days? Then again, I am extremely non-confrontational, especially with stranglers, lol.) Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Worthy of my disdain ? Not really I think that allowing yourself to cry in front of others is a brave thing, I cant do it. You're missing the point I'm making, cartain things which you guys find to be sexist are a direct result of how girls respond in certain situations, girls are more sensitive than guys and their responses accordingly, yet if someone says "you're as sensitive as a girl" you will find the statement to be sexist, even though as you have said it yourself women are genetically more likely to cry hence indeed more sensitive... I've heard countless times girls tell other girls coz of various things "you're such a guy" which should be a sexist thing to say... yet nor do we nor do you care about it that much... I find all that extremely funny thats all The sexism doesn't come from pointing out a common behavior of one gender or the other, but from the light in which it's viewed. When someone says, "You cry like a little girl," do they mean it as a compliment? No. As a neutral statement of fact? No. As an insult? Most often, yes. To do something "like a man" implies doing it with strength, dignity, maturity, control, resilience, and in a respectable fashion. To do something "like a girl" implies doing it with weakness, inferiority, lack of control, and a general lack of "manliness," aka a lack of the positive traits listed above. Of course, saying "man up" or "take it like a man" or even "you're such a guy" and things like that is *also* sexist. It's not good or acceptable just because women say it, too. I care quite a bit about those statements, even if the women making them don't. And I just can't find it "extremely funny" that "girl" or "woman" = "weak, inferior person lacking in positive traits of maturity" in the common parlance of the world. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Um well, OK. I will put up with all the sexism I see around me. (NOT, but for the sake of argument...) But equally we must remember that: Men cannot control their bits, and so all women have to cover up or they are offering themselves up for - not RAPE , because they ASKED for it. Men are totally insensitive and have no concept of feelings except lust. All men avoid housework. Men smell. Men love football and anyone who doesn't is a wuss. Any MAN who doesn't is gay. All men read porn. No man understands the word no when said by a woman. All men are liars. No man can carry on a conversation. All men are potential rapists (and by the way, note the British judge who not long ago let a convicted rapist off with a warning because "you're from my part of the world..." - he had already effectively said that rape wasn't that important if "actual violence" wasn't involved. The jury disagreed, so....) At this moment there is a massive campaign in the UK - and it turns out that 35% of women have been sexually assaulted, and one in 10 raped Source. Most are unreported because - men in the police force etc don't believe them, don't take it seriously and treat them so badly. Also because men have taught them that they deserve it. Thanks guys. You did that. And it is male attitudes towards us that allow this to continue. A nice article about all this and why ALL MEN have come to be this way. Sure - none of this holds up (except the porn one and the rape...) but it makes as much sense as those here who say sexism aimed at woman is all in our (tiny, feminine and fluffy ) minds. At least we women are smart enough to know that platitudes are just that. How come all the posts saying how daft we are in this thread seem to be made by men ? Could it be that the insensitivity bit is SO true - and they simply don't GET it ? However - why are more women not in politics to sort this out ? There was a huge study about that (source will come when I find it.) It found (to my huge amusement as I stood for office once myself) that woman are TOO SMART - they know that politics as it is in the world today is a total waste of time which leaves you with no life and they would rather live. My experience of campaigning bears this out in SPADES. I just found a rather foul page: Why don't more men respect women? ATTITUDES SUCK. Edited as link keeps going weird on me. Edited March 23, 2012 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) ...Wait, you think in this hypothetical world that I suggested in an attempt to try to give you a chance to imagine a world where your gender is objectified constantly and relentlessly, that just because you wouldn't buy it that no one would buy it? That just because men wouldn't buy it that no one would? Sir, I tell you now: WOMEN EXIST. We have money and are willing to spend it. There are a lot of women comic book and video game fans out there...but somehow, the industry just is not that interested in giving us what we want. Explained it already, even if the "new world comics" are selling, there still are potential buyers out there for the old comic books (me and other guys), potential buyers means demand = someone will supply it coz thats how business works. Comic books/video games are corporations, and the world as you know it is run by those, they dont see gender, all they see is money, so even though there are a lot of comic book women fans out there, its more profitable to keep things the way they are... Money is the only name of the game. Gave you a similar example with women magazines, if they stop making them there will be a new demand hence it will come back in another form and women will get what they want otherwise they wont spend money on it... Regardless there are comic book genres available for everybody, if you look for it you will find something that works for you.. Here's the thing you need to understand: Comic books and video games are enjoyed by women. That's one reason why women even see themselves being relentlessly objectified in these mediums. I don't go looking for unrealistically inhuman broken-spined bubble-boobs and butts women in video games, they're right there when I go to play! I havent seen unrealistic broken spined bubble boobs in diablo, dragon age, starcraft, demon forge, witcher, shooter games... so if there are many of those games the feat is available only coz the creator thinks its game is meant for male population mainly if not only... Yeah they were, which was more of straight male dudes not wanting to share the catering with anyone. I have no idea why those particular dudes find it so threatening to realize they aren't the only people in the universe. That's something related to sexism, though isn't it exactly. Its all about human psyche, example - Batman fans, grew up on the character, and are "involved" with it, if you suddenly make a drastic change such as making batman into a bi-sexual you're killing the character for those who love him.. It has nothing to do with straight dudes though, if you were to take a homosexual character who has a large following within the homosexual community and turn him into a bi-sexual you will not hear the end of it from the homosexual community coz one of the reasons they love the character so much is that he's a homosexual.... That's just the way it is.... Exactly! This times a zillion! Now if this was just something that was taken to heart in more than just BioWare games...like, say, comic book depictions of women... Told you, its a business decision, wont change unless the industry thinks it wont affect their pockets.... MONEY is what matters... Okay. Fair enough, I suppose. Most of what was said I did say in reply to your second quote, but I feel like reiterating, so: Misogyny is everywhere. If you don't see it, then it is because you are not looking, not that 'us feminists' are looking everywhere for it. If we just avoided places that were sexist we'd have no place to go. It also wouldn't be addressing the problem or doing anything about it. And why shouldn't I have a right to be on x forum without feeling harassed? The little things matter, so why can't we address them? They are the crux of the problem and help to spread the underlying sexist attitude virtually everywhere. If we can't address the crux of the problem, there is no point. Besides, if it matters to me, what's wrong with me addressing it? Is my opinion worth nothing? All I said is, every minority goes through that every day, analyzing the little things harms nobody but you, making you more sad/angry, choose your battles, The problem is not the little things its the society's attitude that needs to change, including the one women have Misogyny is not just a problem when it is "big". That's along the lines of saying we shouldn't do anything about bullies on the playground because that's just small scale and kids will be kids and don't we want to stop wars and people like Kony, since that's bigger? So because it's too big of a job we just shouldn't care? D: Trust me, we do filter. I cannot possibly tackle all the sexist, racist, anti-gay, sizeist, classist, ableist, whatever else issues I see. Yes, it's a hard job and some days I just want to hide under my covers and cry and eat ice cream and watch movies and ignore the world, but I won't give up, because these things directly and negatively affect me, my friends, my family, my boyfriend, and people all over the world. If we all just tackle some things when we can and when we see it, well, then we can make a change. And isn't that worth it? The issue at hand as I was discussing it is, sexism is a serious problem, by talking about the small stuff you're taking this huge problem into the "gutter" and offending people, I'll explain, your point of view is a Western one, I've been to 50 more or less countries and sexism/racism in some of the places is something you cant even comprehend, there are a whole lot of users around this forum who are deeply offended by the way this thread is being run, One girl says general discussion is not a general discussion but instead its a Western discussion, the other girl says people in general discussion dont understand that there is a world outside their backyard thats nothing like the one they live in, I got into this thread coz a girl from India said she's read this thread and felt like screaming, coz the things you guys are discussing are offensive to her as your "biggest" problems would be like her dreams coming true, people from non-western countries are scared of getting into the general discussion as according to them there is no place for their views in here,,,, Their words, you guys did that to them... Do you have the right to rant about door opening ? Yes you do, coz "the smallest of my problems is bigger than the biggest problems of the world" but keep in mind that you are offending a lot of people by concentrating on certain aspects coz the life you live is 10000000 light years away from lives they live. take this anology - Pro (black) football player said 2-3 years ago that he is the new "modern slave" (dude makes 100 mill per 4 seasons)... in the world there are 40 mill slaves (actual slaves), blacks in Africa die of starvation, blacks in other countries get treated like dogs and the dude who can buy whatever he wants and gets paid silly money for playing the game he loves, is the "slave"... Offensive as hell IMO I am not ranting. I am pointing out perverse and serious issues in society relating to sexism, as I can in the sexism thread. What can I change if I just go rant to myself rather than speaking up? How else can I bring up issues but to bring them up and say what's wrong with them? A rant would be: "Ugh, why do you do this to me!? You don't respect me because I am a girl and I'M TIRED OF IT. UGGGGGGGGH. GET OVER YOURSELF." The posts in this thread may not be the calmest, but they are directly relevant to this thread. We have been discussing and debating and sharing, not just ranting about our lives. I think there's a problem when we can say 'there is something wrong with calling knee push-ups girl push-ups since this not so subtly implies that girls are so much weaker they obviously can't do the same things as men' and not be taken seriously. Like I said, feel free to express yourself any way you want, Im merely trying to get you to see that there is another POV here, and that people from non-western countries can bring this discussion to a whole new level, but somehow you guys got them scared, which is pretty much the way men got them feeling in their own countries... Ylangylang is the only non-westerner who dared say something and if you read her post, it looks like she's walking on glass while posting.. I used snapped because I wasn't sure what other word to use there at the time (brain fart D: ). I did want something neutral that just simply meant 'expressed distaste for your actions/attitude/something'. Sorry about that. Happens to me more often than to you, nothing to apologize for, its all good... 1. Well, the reply is kind of passive-aggressive "I just think its rude to close the door in someones face" since I doubt that's what the offended party was offended at. If you're apologizing, you should just apologize, not 'faux-apologize'. ;3 That part wasnt me apologizing : Im sorry, I had no idea you might feel that way, I just think its rude to close the door in someones face, - Explaining my actions and why I do it, makes it clear I didnt mean to offend you in any way. apologizing part : if I have offended you I apologize, it wasnt my intention" - apologizing for it, nothing false about that IMO.... 2. Fair enough. (Though, and just my philosophy - what's the point of snapping back? If you had a bad day and inadvertently snapped at the person who happened to be the straw breaking the camel's back, wouldn't it make you feel better if the other person just backed off and apologized? Perhaps that's all you needed to make your day better and you and the other person could both end up apologizing for whatever rudeness there was, rather than getting into a yelling match that will probably ruin both of your days? Then again, I am extremely non-confrontational, especially with stranglers, lol.) Thats your philosophy, and I respect it, however thats not how Im wired, I have no problem being a punching bag for my girlfriend, my family or my friends, random people using me as their punching bag, just not happening.. I never snap at random people coz of having a bad day, if somebody does it to me Im gonna spit fire, but then again Im a temperamental dude... Edit : Kelkelen, nowhere has it been stated.... "girl" or "woman" = "weak, inferior person lacking in positive traits of maturity" in the common parlance of the world. Furthermore, its much more common to associate childish with a man, maturity is actually one of the positive "female" traits, as opposed to those of us guys who are just big babies... In a similar manner, dirty, messy, unthoughtful, hasty or tons of others negative traits can be asociated with men... its never one is good or other bad, it always depends on the context in which its used.... Edited March 23, 2012 by NixAyum Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) The issue at hand as I was discussing it is, sexism is a serious problem, by talking about the small stuff you're taking this huge problem into the "gutter" and offending people, I'll explain, your point of view is a Western one, I've been to 50 more or less countries and sexism/racism in some of the places is something you cant even comprehend, there are a whole lot of users around this forum who are deeply offended by the way this thread is being run, One girl says general discussion is not a general discussion its a Western discussion, the other girl says people in general discussion dont understand that there is a world outside their backyard thats nothing like the one they live in, I got into this thread coz a girl from India said she's read this thread and felt like screaming, coz the things you guys are discussing are offensive to her as your "biggest" problems would be like her dreams coming true, peopel from non-western countries are scared of getting of getting into the general discussion as according to them there is no place for their views in here,,,, Their words, you guys did that to them... I am one of those people who are not from the U.S. I live in another part of the world, in fact, in a part of Asia. I don't think that they're taking this "huge problem into the gutter" as you mentioned. I do experience way more extreme forms of sexism every single day. But, I don't come here and get offended just because some people focus on the smaller issues. To explain, I live in a country where if you get sexually harassed, the cops ask the girl what you were wearing. I live in a country where the ministry of health defined single mothers as basically uneducated prostitutes up to about a few years ago. I live in a country where CEOs publicly talk about not hiring women. I live in a country where you have to attach your photos to your job resume, and plastic surgery is considered an asset so that you look better in order to get a job. All of these are blatantly sexist. Do I get upset when people focus on the smaller issues? No. Because in their world they're upset by those issues and they're perfectly within their rights to discuss that. If I wanted to say, talk about the more extreme forms of sexism and how to root that out, I can do that on this forum. I just choose to listen to other people more, because frankly, these issues will come to pass in my country in the future, hopefully when the more extreme forms of sexism goes away. They're something that does need to be systematically dealt with. You guys, in a sense, are raising questions that needs to be answered in the future and giving them answers. I personally find them helpful because I myself might have to answer them some day, and these issues will become relevant then. Now, if we were not to focus on what you call the trivial side of things and focus on the more extreme forms of things all the time, as you seem to imply, then the list is endless. This is a forum to share personal experience of sexism and how to root that out. I don't think people have witnessed sex trafficking, genital mutilation, sexual slavery and so forth on a first-hand basis. If you have, feel free to share. It's not a forum where ONLY the more serious aspects are being dealt. Frankly I find your suggestion that we only talk about the big stuff silly. That's like saying "Oh, people are dying of starvation and disease in Africa, that's a big deal, we're wasting our money on precious resources, so let's get rid of every single material wealth that we have and live like them." Not reasonable nor realistic. Of course I would love it if actual, virulent sexism where I live are rooted out. But I have no right to shout down other people's real, harmful experiences of sexism by saying that "I experience more harmful sexism every day!". Whether it's more harmful or not, sexism hurts women-and to me, that's what really counts. What do you think other people should do? Shut up and actually experience extreme forms of sexism? Shut up if they haven't experienced any? Sexism is sexism, no matter how "extreme" or "petty" it is. It hurts women. That's what's important. And to me it's horrifying that this phenomenon of hurting and subjugating women are everywhere, even in so-called "liberal" or "advanced" countries. And, since lots of third-world countries do get pressured, subtly through the media or otherwise, to follow the U.S model, I feel that getting rid of problems in the U.S will in the end result in a trickle-down effect and affect things in my country as well. And actually, it has, through the media. As access to the western media increases, it does affect how the local media broadcasts its shows, because the local media thinks it's the world's standard to be like them. In the end, it's going to affect every single one of us. Of course I sometimes feel alienated by the "Western" bias that this forum has. But guess what? This forum is mainly run by people from western countries. What did you expect? This forum mainly uses English, which most people from western countries are more familiar with. If this forum used Chinese or Arabic or Spanish, even, I would feel that this western bias is a bit out of place, but this is an English speaking forum made by people playing a game that was made in the U.S. Of course there's going to be a huge influence of American people and their opinions. But I do speak about my experiences (I remember saying to Kestra, for example, that in my country women with huge salaries and higher education levels are not really considered marriage material because they scare away men) and share them, and I do hope that it contributed to people. What I actually find offensive is the part that you're saying that you're appointing yourself to speak for every other third-world country women that go on the forums. What makes you think you can represent what they think? Perhaps some of you, like me, prefer only to watch. Perhaps others are uninterested because they don't really care about issues and would rather trade eggs. Perhaps others don't have the level of English high enough to present their opinions fluently and thus opt not to participate. Perhaps others are offended by this. Who knows. But certainly, not all of us are scared away by others on this thread. Unless you're a woman living in a third-world country yourself, you cannot speak for the experience of all of them. And I recommend that you don't try to, because frankly it's patronizing. Just my two cents. Feel free to talk to me about more extreme forms of sexism that I face every day if you want. Edited March 23, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Explained it already You know what? You're not listening to me and it is obvious. If you are unwilling to attempt the thought experiment I have presented you, then just say so. Otherwise, I'm through wasting my time talking at you on this subject. What I actually find offensive is the part that you're saying that you're appointing yourself to speak for every other third-world country women that go on the forums. What makes you think you can represent what they think? Perhaps some of you, like me, prefer only to watch. Perhaps others are uninterested because they don't really care about issues and would rather trade eggs. Perhaps others don't have the level of English high enough to present their opinions fluently and thus opt not to participate. Perhaps others are offended by this. Who knows. But certainly, not all of us are scared away by others on this thread. Unless you're a woman living in a third-world country yourself, you cannot speak for the experience of all of them. And I recommend that you don't try to, because frankly it's patronizing. Thank you for being here and speaking. This place is better for it. Edited March 23, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Edit : Kelkelen, nowhere has it been stated.... "girl" or "woman" = "weak, inferior person lacking in positive traits of maturity" in the common parlance of the world. Furthermore, its much more common to associate childish with a man, maturity is actually one of the positive "female" traits, as opposed to those of us guys who are just big babies... In a similar manner, dirty, messy, unthoughtful, hasty or tons of others negative traits can be asociated with men... its never one is good or other bad, it always depends on the context in which its used.... Of course it has been stated. It IS stated, in our common use of language, every day. "You throw like a girl." "You hit like a girl." "You scream like a girl." "You cry like a girl." "You fight like a girl." "You run like a girl." And so on and so forth. And, despite the comparison being made to female-bodied people, not in any way specifically children, it's still not even "woman," but "girl." It's used as an insult. Does a boy or man want to be told that he does something "like a girl?" No -- it's understood that the *instant* connotation is negative. Does a girl want to do something "like a man" or even "like a boy?" Often, yes, because the connotation is positive. To "take it like a man," or to throw, hit, fight, run, or play a sport like a man or even a boy, is seen as a compliment. Females often talk about the joy of being treated as "one of the guys" on their sports teams, or in groups of male friends. They don't *want* to be "treated like a girl." I'm trying to think of one *complimentary* phrase that ends in "like a girl," and I can't. Probably because, in the language of insults, we DO use "like a girl" to mean "like a weak, inferior person lacking in strength/dignity/maturity/control/resilience/skill." We've turned "female person" into an insult, to be tagged onto the end of any verb to belittle the person the comment is aimed at. I do realize that yes, our culture commonly suggests that women mature more quickly than men, and also that they remain the more mature ones (which is a convenient way to justify immature behavior in men -- you can't expect him to act respectfully or maturely, he's just being a boy! It's natural! Boys will be boys! Etc). But when do we ever compliment a young boy for "taking it like a woman?" "You acted like a real woman, son. I'm proud of you." Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 What I actually find offensive is the part that you're saying that you're appointing yourself to speak for every other third-world country women that go on the forums. What makes you think you can represent what they think? Perhaps some of you, like me, prefer only to watch. Perhaps others are uninterested because they don't really care about issues and would rather trade eggs. Perhaps others don't have the level of English high enough to present their opinions fluently and thus opt not to participate. Perhaps others are offended by this. Who knows. But certainly, not all of us are scared away by others on this thread. Unless you're a woman living in a third-world country yourself, you cannot speak for the experience of all of them. And I recommend that you don't try to, because frankly it's patronizing. Just my two cents. Feel free to talk to me about more extreme forms of sexism that I face every day if you want. Read my post again, havent appointed myself as anyone's speaker, shared what I was told by 4-5 non-western members, which is 5 times the number of non-western members in this thread or any of the other threads I've seen thus far, What others think or not think I dont know, however when more than one non-westerner says the same thing I started paying attention to it, and guess what, I indeed noticed that indeed others arent part of the discussion... Im good thank you, been around plenty of places and dealt with modern day slavery, sex trafficking, rape camps and what not, so I doubt you can enlighten me on anything new.... You know what? You're not listening to me and it is obvious. If you are unwilling to attempt the thought experiment I have presented you, then just say so. Otherwise, I'm through wasting my time talking at you on this subject. Actually its you who is not listening, I have already answered that, told you I would be pissed at first that something I like has been taken away from me hence would stop buying the product, then I would see it as a business opportunity and would bring it back while making money in the process coz the demand for the product is still there... step 1 - Anger, step 2 - demand aka potential buyers with no product, step 3 - money making => a pretty straight forward answer if you ask me. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Unless you're a woman living in a third-world country yourself, you cannot speak for the experience of all of them. And I recommend that you don't try to, because frankly it's patronizing. Just my two cents. Feel free to talk to me about more extreme forms of sexism that I face every day if you want. What Artemis said. AS well as - as a man, you simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE. It's a bit like men saying that period pains are just women making a fuss, and that the pain of childbirth isn't a patch on man flu (and they DO say that.) I have a friend who has given birth and who has also had kidney stones and a host of other serious pains in her life. She says the only comparable pain to childbirth was the kidney stones, and she also said (in a moment of stress) that she wished the idiot man who told her daughter, who was having a very difficult pregnancy, not to worry as childbirth wasn't real pain could have a kidney stone, just so he'd have some idea. It isn't till you experience these things that you have any idea what it is like. Much more so, of course, for people like ylangylang. But the women here stand by her in her struggle too. ETA I'm sorry that making money trumps everything for some people. That says an awful lot. Edited March 23, 2012 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Of course it has been stated. It IS stated, in our common use of language, every day. "You throw like a girl." "You hit like a girl." "You scream like a girl." "You cry like a girl." "You fight like a girl." "You run like a girl." And so on and so forth. And, despite the comparison being made to female-bodied people, not in any way specifically children, it's still not even "woman," but "girl." It's used as an insult. Does a boy or man want to be told that he does something "like a girl?" No -- it's understood that the *instant* connotation is negative. Does a girl want to do something "like a man" or even "like a boy?" Often, yes, because the connotation is positive. To "take it like a man," or to throw, hit, fight, run, or play a sport like a man or even a boy, is seen as a compliment. Females often talk about the joy of being treated as "one of the guys" on their sports teams, or in groups of male friends. They don't *want* to be "treated like a girl." I'm trying to think of one *complimentary* phrase that ends in "like a girl," and I can't. Probably because, in the language of insults, we DO use "like a girl" to mean "like a weak, inferior person lacking in strength/dignity/maturity/control/resilience/skill." We've turned "female person" into an insult, to be tagged onto the end of any verb to belittle the person the comment is aimed at. I do realize that yes, our culture commonly suggests that women mature more quickly than men, and also that they remain the more mature ones (which is a convenient way to justify immature behavior in men -- you can't expect him to act respectfully or maturely, he's just being a boy! It's natural! Boys will be boys! Etc). But when do we ever compliment a young boy for "taking it like a woman?" "You acted like a real woman, son. I'm proud of you." Kelkelen, maybe girls below 20 do think its positive when they're compared to guys, I however know plenty of women over 20, successful, independent, strong smart women, not one of them would see it as a compliment to be called a guy in any aspect of things, real women are proud of them being women and wouldnt want it any other way, real men are the same way... You fight like a guy You throw like a guy You run like a guy whatever like a guy Those are not compliments, nothing positive in any of them... If you view those as compliments... I really dont know what to say to that... Edit : Fuzzy, What Artemis said. AS well as - as a man, you simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE. It's a bit like men saying that period pains are just women making a fuss, and that the pain of childbirth isn't a patch on man flu (and they DO say that.) I have a friend who has given birth and who has also had kidney stones and a host of other serious pains in her life. She says the only comparable pain to childbirth was the kidney stones, and she also said (in a moment of stress) that she wished the idiot man who told her daughter, who was having a very difficult pregnancy, not to worry as childbirth wasn't real pain could have a kidney stone, just so he'd have some idea. It isn't till you experience these things that you have any idea what it is like. Much more so, of course, for people like ylangylang. But the women here stand by her in her struggle too. Of course I dont know what it feels like however I do have some sense of whats right and whats wrong, being a protector in nature, being in bad places during my service, dealing with simply put evil people and when adding the fact that I have a temper I promise you that I get just as worked out if not even more when it comes to hurting children or women... I did have a kidney stone attack, and I drove my ass to the hospital during such attack (ask your friend, what would she think of driving for 30 minutes in such condition, the answer will be - its insane, thats exactly what the pain does, drives you insane), and all the women I've talked to (while waiting for the laser treatment) said that they would prefer pregnancy pain over kidney stone pain, and with epidural in the game, its not even a valid question... If someone says something dumb about pregnancy it just means that he is dumb, nothing new there Fuzzy, 80+% of the population is beyond ignorant anyhow.... Edited March 23, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Kelkelen, maybe girls below 20 do think its positive when they're compared to guys, I however know plenty of women over 20, successful, independent, strong smart women, not one of them would see it as a compliment to be called a guy in any aspect of things, real women are proud of them being women and wouldnt want it any other way, real men are the same way... You fight like a guy You throw like a guy You run like a guy whatever like a guy Those are not compliments, nothing positive in any of them... If you view those as compliments... I really dont know what to say to that... I agree - those are not compliments. BUT - most men would expect us to see them as such, I assure you. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 I found this post about childbirth if anyone is interested: http://1001thingstobethankfulfor.wordpress...010/10/14/0117/ Maybe that could be the reason why some women would prefer pregnacy pains over kidney stones... I can imagine that it is nearly the same pain having kidney stones, cause my dad had some and I swear I never saw him crying, but that day he cried due to them. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Actually its you who is not listening, I have already answered that, told you I would be pissed at first that something I like has been taken away from me hence would stop buying the product, then I would see it as a business opportunity and would bring it back while making money in the process coz the demand for the product is still there... step 1 - Anger, step 2 - demand aka potential buyers with no product, step 3 - money making => a pretty straight forward answer if you ask me. I heard you fine. You said: I will not imagine this scenario because I, as a man, have economic power to change it. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 I heard you fine. You said: I will not imagine this scenario because I, as a man, have economic power to change it. Not really, I imagined it, I got pissed coz of it and then I found both a solution and an opportunity within the new world order, not as a man but as a business oriented person, if you think that a woman in the business sector cant push a certain potential product forward coz she's a woman then you're mistaken, I dont know what's your background but I promise you that in the business world as it is today, woman/man/alien brings forward a potential money making idea... there is no gender no religion and only one color matters - green.... Share this post Link to post
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