Sexism

[Bleuberries]

Language warning: Women want to be equal?

 

I don't understand the need to be equal with men. After reading this rage comic (of all things) I could care less if I make more than a man. Honestly, I think women complain too )*@)*&(@ much about being equal...

 

Wearing make up is like tanning. The looks are good for a moment, but in the long run it can damage the skin...My boyfriend (and everyone else) say I look good without it. If I were to wear it, I'd look amazing but then people would be liking a lie.

 

As for work, I don't see why money is such a HUGE issue. It just shows how petty people are being. I like that sexism will die once WOMEN stop caring how much money they make in comparison to men and how they do so much more of the "work" in society. FYI, I don't believe that having a baby is considered "work." You willingly do all of it and if it were that big of a deal then less people would be popping out children every year. Seeing a woman say "YEAH?! Well child birth is the worst pain you will ever feel blah blah blah," is honestly the most invalid argument I've ever heard. You shouldn't bring up something in an argument/debate that we (Yes, I'm a girl) were biologically designed to do. (I'm not saying someone brought it up, but I've heard it in sexism arguments before)

 

There will never be an "equal" because these debates are founded on people who still believe the idea of sexism is alive...So if people were to stop considering gender as such a huge factor then it wont matter. But I don't think that's ever going to happen. (My five cents)

Edited January 29, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Princess Artemis]

Are we talking before or after I've washed my face? I admit, I have amazing skin in the morning when I just wake up or right before bed. But once I was my face (I use an acne scrub because I have oily skin) it gets really, really red. Hence why I wear makeup in the first place.

 

I admit, my love of makeup started when I was twelve. For theatre. And theatre makeup is so bad for your skin. But I started loving eye makeup because purples really brought out the blue of my eyes.

 

I've never heard of a woman being fired for not wearing makeup on the job.

At all times!

 

That's all cool. As WereJace put it, makeup, when optional, is awesome : )

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jul/04/...-line-on-beauty is about a woman (a beautiful one!) who wasn't fired, but quit after having worked there for five years without issue, but suddenly being caught committing the crime of not wearing three coats of lipstick and being sent home from work, as that was not acceptable. Compare that men at the same workplace apparently only have to take a shower, not wear long nails, and shave...and certainly are not expected to take into account what the store lighting does to their appearance. Because men are beautiful simply clean; women cannot be without spackle and three coats of paint.

 

I am positive that somewhere, someone has been fired for not wearing makeup; of course that would not be the "official" reason. I am positive more often, someone has not gotten a job in the first place for not wearing makeup. I am positive far, far more often, people experience unwarranted stress in their jobs because their bosses are breathing down their neck about the state of the foreign substances on their face not being up to some standard, something utterly unrelated to their job, a pressure the men do not face.

 

Honestly, I think women complain too )*@)*&(@ much about being equal...

 

Equal to whom? The default human--men. One rarely hears someone speak of men being equal and assuming women are the default human being.

 

That comic has a very good point though. The draft is extremely sexist and it is something that should be addressed.

 

FYI, I don't believe that having a baby is considered "work." You willingly do all of it and if it were that big of a deal then less people would be popping out children every year.

 

Why do you consider work willingly undertaken as not, somehow, "work"? How many people do you know that go to jobs to work do so under duress, that are forced to do so? Do they, perhaps, willingly get jobs? Does their willingness mean they are not working?

 

And after the baby is carried (which is a stressful on a woman's body), what happens after? Babies do not grow on their own. Is nursing an infant work? Or is it just something one does for fun? Or, because both the man and the woman decided to procreate, it is something that sucks up so much of only the woman's time but isn't legitimate work simply because men (except under certain circumstances) don't lactate? Of course, a man could stay home and feed his child entirely on his own, to somewhat simulate the same situation, but if he did, would what he chose to do be considered "hard work", or would it be dismissed? (And would the mother in question ever hear the end of it?)

 

"My pain is worse than your pain" is an invalid argument.

 

There will never be an "equal" because these debates are founded on people who still believe the idea of sexism is alive...So if people were to stop considering gender as such a huge factor then it wont matter.

 

If only people would accept their lot in life and not try to improve it.

[Kestra15]

How did I know that would happen. Only on DC could a woman be attacked for being happy with her lot in life.

 

By the way, everyone is under duress to get a job, because everyone needs money to get by. It just so happens that some people enjoy their work, but at the end of they day they *have* to be there. You can't just not bother to work on days where you feel lazy.

[Princess Artemis]

How did I know that would happen. Only on DC could a woman be attacked for being happy with her lot in life.

 

By the way, everyone is under duress to get a job, because everyone needs money to get by. It just so happens that some people enjoy their work, but at the end of they day they *have* to be there. You can't just not bother to work on days where you feel lazy.

Who's attacking who? If there are personal attacks going on in this thread, I'm sure a mod will be around shortly to warn the offending member.

 

And so, everyone is under duress to get a job...and that means "work" is not defined by the willingness one has in undertaking it, correct?

Edited January 29, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[WereJace]

I am positive that somewhere, someone has been fired for not wearing makeup; of course that would not be the "official" reason. I am positive more often, someone has not gotten a job in the first place for not wearing makeup. I am positive far, far more often, people experience unwarranted stress in their jobs because their bosses are breathing down their neck about the state of the foreign substances on their face not being up to some standard, something utterly unrelated to their job, a pressure the men do not face.

Here's another woman fired for not wearing makeup.

[Obscure_Trash]

That comic has a very good point though. The draft is extremely sexist and it is something that should be addressed.

Agreed. I hate a lot of things about the draft.

 

However, the comic ended using sexist language.

Also, women do not expect men to pay for dates and such. Not all of them, anyway. My bf and I split things evenly and so do all the other couples I know.

And who says that man is going to get a date, anyway? Can't pay for a date he doesn't have. ;3

 

I like that sexism will die once WOMEN stop caring how much money they make in comparison to men and how they do so much more of the "work" in society.

 

This is not even close to the only issue women face.

 

Why should we stop caring?

 

You willingly do all of it and if it were that big of a deal then less people would be popping out children every year.

 

Not everybody does it willingly. Domestic abuse, not being allowed abortions, etc. are problems women can and do face.

 

There will never be an "equal" because these debates are founded on people who still believe the idea of sexism is alive.

 

Not only is the idea of it alive, it it still around.

 

I would love if people would not put so much pressure on gender (and the gender binary), but I'm not going to sit by and watch sexism happen just because gender shouldn't be a big deal.

[AngelKitty]

I like that sexism will die once WOMEN stop caring how much money they make in comparison to men and how they do so much more of the "work" in society.

 

You don't make problems go away by not caring about them. If blacks had just stopped caring that they were treated as subhuman by whites, do you think they'd have gotten the rights they deserved? If women stopped complaining about receiving unequal salaries, do you think they'd suddenly start receiving equal ones? Nobody earns the rights they want by sitting down and shutting up.

 

Sexism is real. There's a whole lot more to sexism than salaries, too, and sexism is NOT just directed towards women. Read the thread.

Edited January 29, 2012 by AngelKitty

[babybluefire]

For those who do not believe that childcare and raising is work. Then what do you call the insane cost of day care? I am an emt, phlebotomist and laboratory tech by trade. I have experience and time in job. Yet the cost of day care is so outrageously high that my entire paycheck save 20 bucks a month would be eaten up by daycare costs. So the average daycare worker and daycare owners make considerable more money then I can and I am collage educated.

 

 

To further my point raising children is hard work, try raising children with physical medical issues, allergies or mental health issues. My youngest cousin is mentally disabled. She was adopted out of the foster care system and is therfore elegable for considerable grants and other montary help. My Aunt once brought up to the social worker if it was moraly right for my aunt and uncle to take the money, considering that they wanted to adopt and make her legaly theirs. The social worker was helping them to get a small addition onto their home to make my cousin a bedroom/bathroom that can fit her hospital bed and lift machines.

 

 

The social worked laid out the monetary cost as straightforward as possible. For my cousin to be in a home that gives round the clock medical care the cost per year to the state (for my cousins needs) would be 350 thousand a year. So my aunts time as a round the clock parent is worth more then 350 thousand a year.

Edited January 31, 2012 by babybluefire

[kiffren]

I don't understand the need to be equal with men. After reading this rage comic (of all things) I could care less if I make more than a man. Honestly, I think women complain too )*@)*&(@ much about being equal...

Why shouldn't women be equal with men? What possible reason is there to not be equal? Are women worth less than men are?

 

Now sure, men pay for dates traditionally. However, more and more I see my straight female friends paying for dates. As for the selective service system, ever heard of a conscientious objector?

"In the United States during World War I, conscientious objectors were permitted to serve in noncombatant military roles."

"Civilian Public Service (CPS) provided conscientious objectors in the United States an alternative to military service during World War II. From 1941 to 1947 nearly 12,000 draftees, unwilling to do any type of military service, performed work of national importance in 152 CPS camps throughout the United States and Puerto Rico."

[1]

Needless to say, there are numerous benefits for joining the military. I don't see the selective service as a bad thing, in fact I'd say it should be for both men and women.

 

 

If I were to wear it [makeup], I'd look amazing but then people would be liking a lie.

Personal choice. It's similar to wearing clothes that make you look better than you actually look. I prefer not to wear make up because I find it stupid and gender binding.

 

As for work, I don't see why money is such a HUGE issue. It just shows how petty people are being. I like that sexism will die once WOMEN stop caring how much money they make in comparison to men and how they do so much more of the "work" in society.

Sexism won't die once women stop caring how much they make in comparison to men. As long as women make less because they are women, then sexism will be around.

 

FYI, I don't believe that having a baby is considered "work." You willingly do all of it and if it were that big of a deal then less people would be popping out children every year.

Working a job is voluntary. I could easily stop working and go live in a hut in the wilderness.

Having a child isn't work, raising a child is. You have to feed the child, keep it healthy, teach it important things, feed it, clean it's diaper, the list goes on. Raising a child is about as much work as caring for someone who is extremely disabled, which let me tell you is a lot.

Besides, as someone pointed out, if raising a child isn't work then why does day care cost anything?

 

You shouldn't bring up something in an argument/debate that we (Yes, I'm a girl) were biologically designed to do.

I hate to break it to you, but we aren't early hominids anymore. If we had a child every 4-6 years and let our mates support us (considering ourselves as a monogomous species), then it would be how women are biologically designed.

 

There will never be an "equal" because these debates are founded on people who still believe the idea of sexism is alive...

Sexism is very much still alive. It's not a belief, it's a fact.

[2], [3], [4]

 

So if people were to stop considering gender as such a huge factor then it wont matter. But I don't think that's ever going to happen. (My five cents)

When gender is no longer a factor, then sexism won't exist. However, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Edited January 31, 2012 by kiffren

[Alpha1]

Sexism won't die once women stop caring how much they make in comparison to men. As long as women make less because they are women, then sexism will be around.

 

This isn't true.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-450...omen-oh-please/

 

A Salary Gap Between Men and Women? Oh, Please.

 

By Penelope Trunk

 

"(MoneyWatch) It is absolutely ridiculous that the White House recently announced an initiative to pass the Paycheck Fairness Act to help women during this lousy economy. First of all, it's already illegal to pay people based on gender criteria. Second, during this downturn women are doing much better than men in terms of job loss. And third, there simply is no longer a salary gap between men and women.

 

Yes, you read that correctly. This is not a controversial statement. Or at least it shouldn't be. It was just on the cover of the Economist in an article that asserted at least 15 times that a salary gap in America is gone. And many major U.S. news outlets have reported that women in their 20s are out-earning their male counterparts in large cities, which is not surprising because women are doing better in school than men are."

 

I've also posted a few days ago that this wasn't case using different sources.

 

Also, a lot of hyperbole in this thread. For example, makeup a big deal? I hardly notice, and a lot of women are gorgeous without any.

 

In fact, it's similar to women and their collection of shoes. Much of their beauty products don't even get used.

[Kila]

If...if a woman works at a makeup counter she should probably know how to apply said products and wear them to showcase the products to potential buyers. If a department store has that in their performance standard and dress code for women in that specific department I see no reason.

 

I can easily see men who work in the cosmetics department to at least use the face cream/base/men's skin care products. It makes sense to me. You sell cosmetics, you should enjoy wearing them to showcase them to potential buyers.

 

FYI, I don't believe that having a baby is considered "work." You willingly do all of it and if it were that big of a deal then less people would be popping out children every year.

 

You are incredibly misguided.

 

Pushing a watermelon out of a grapefruit is work. It is physical labor that can last for hours. It's not called "labor" because it's like a happy skip through a meadow to feed duckies in the pond. It is painful and exhausting.

 

And then there's actually raising the child for eighteen years or more.

 

And, FYI, first world countries are having less children than third world countries because we have a lower mortality rate. So the people "popping out lots of babies" have lots of kids because their survival is not guaranteed.

[Hippo_Knives]

I'm not going to say I'm 'for' sexism, but the ideas that make it up are valid ideas. i.e. one gender is more capable of certain tasks than the other, and vice-versa. But the way that the ideas have been put into practice could definitely use some work. i.e. one gender is better than another

[kiffren]

This isn't true.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-450...omen-oh-please/

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/68/3/835.short

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/artic...305750X00000188

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111....00089/abstract

 

In some fields, it's non-existant. However, over the entire world (excluding 3rd world countries) there is a huge difference in what women, on average, make and men, on average, make.

 

I read an interesting article about this when I was in my anthro course, but unfortunately I didn't use it as a source for my paper, nor do I still have the link.

 

Edit: More linkage: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1983185,00.html

Edited January 31, 2012 by kiffren

[Princess Artemis]

If...if a woman works at a makeup counter she should probably know how to apply said products and wear them to showcase the products to potential buyers. If a department store has that in their performance standard and dress code for women in that specific department I see no reason.

 

I can easily see men who work in the cosmetics department to at least use the face cream/base/men's skin care products. It makes sense to me. You sell cosmetics, you should enjoy wearing them to showcase them to potential buyers.

I really do understand at makeup counters having an expectation that the workers will use the products since that's what they sell. It's the whole rest of the workforce that has nothing to do with makeup but still requiring it that makes my hackles rise.

 

But...it's still sexist. It does make sense for a seller to like the product they sell and to show them off if they can. If the women are required to wear eyeshadow, the men should be too. After all, makeup does the exact same thing for men as it does women. Plus, it might get more male buyers if they saw what the products could do and/or knew they weren't going to be looked at funny for shopping there!

 

"Look, Bob, you're a good salesman, the best we have, but I'm going to have to ask you to pay more attention to your lipstick."

 

A woman seller of, say, Apple computers and iPhones, should not be required to both buy and use more Apple products than the men so that both will be knowledgeable and enthusiastic about the products. That would be very obviously sexist.

 

The women in the links a few posts above didn't work at makeup counters though. One was a waitress and the other worked in a different department.

 

 

[philpot123]

A woman seller of, say, Apple computers and iPhones, should not be required to both buy and use more Apple products than the men so that both will be knowledgeable and enthusiastic about the products. That would be very obviously sexist.

 

Great analogy. If you have a policy about it, make em all wear it or don't bother to place rules about it.

[Alpha1]

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/68/3/835.short

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/artic...305750X00000188

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111....00089/abstract

 

Those articles you've shown are rather obscure. Case in point, the talk about lawyers who have a high potential in pay. There's numerous articles on it, and the difference is attributed to a multitude of factors. What do you do about it, though?

 

What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

 

One is a scum sucking bottom-dweller... the other is a fish

 

Another example of a career with high salaries is doctors:

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/juggle/2011/02/03/the...doctor-pay-gap/

 

"The gap has been growing steadily in recent decades, to $16,819 in 2008, from just $3,600 in 1999. The pay disparity exists even as women now comprise nearly half of all U.S. medical students."

 

Widening gap even when accounting for inflation. Was it more gender discrimination?

 

However, over the entire world (excluding 3rd world countries) there is a huge difference in what women, on average, make and men, on average, make.

 

I haven't looked into other countries, so I won't comment.

 

Edit: More linkage: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1983185,00.html

 

"Yet no matter how you interpret the numbers, there are a few stubborn percentage points that can't be explained away. Economists and advocates alike speculate that these are the products of slippery factors like discrimination — conscious or not. A 2000 study, for instance, famously found that after symphony orchestras introduced blind auditions, requiring musicians to perform behind a screen, women became more likely to get the gig. "I think discrimination has declined," says Cornell's Blau. "But I'm not yet seeing or believing that it's been completely eliminated.""

 

It mentions a few percentage points. There's individual factors such as height and appearance that apply to everyone.

 

Also,

 

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/22/news/econo...ession.fortune/

 

"There's one sure-fire way to start a heated argument, whether around the water cooler or at a dinner party: Just say something that suggests women manage very differently from their male peers. Then stand back and watch the fireworks.

 

[...]

 

Controversial or not, it's clear that women are doing something differently: Of the roughly 6 million Americans who have lost their jobs since the recession started in December of 2007, 80% are men, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. No doubt, a big part of the reason is that men tend to dominate in the cyclical businesses which have been decimated by the downturn, including manufacturing, construction, engineering and finance. Female-dominated fields like nursing and education have been less hard-hit, at least so far.

 

Still, says Kaputa, that isn't the whole story. In this job market, standing out from the crowd requires a "personal brand" -- a clear professional identity that highlights a candidate's unique set of strengths and skills -- and that's one area where women may excel.

 

[...]

 

And it's clear that collaboration comes naturally to women, starting at a young age. In one study of middle-school kids, which I describe in the book, the researchers gave the same task to a group of boys and a group of girls. The boys appointed a captain, who gave orders, while girls formed a committee of equals where everyone had a say. Both groups achieved the goal -- they just got there differently."

[ferdelance]

Given that I'm female, and U.S. women still earn only 77 cents for every dollar men make?

 

YES, I believe sexism is still around and I also believe everyone who believes all humans are equal ought to be concerned about it... and *doing* something about it, whether it's as big as becoming a lawmaker so you can promote equality nationwide, or as simple as teaching kids you interact with that "you [activity] like a girl" (etc.) is a bad thing to say, and why.

[ferdelance]

And it's clear that collaboration comes naturally to women, starting at a young age. In one study of middle-school kids, which I describe in the book, the researchers gave the same task to a group of boys and a group of girls. The boys appointed a captain, who gave orders, while girls formed a committee of equals where everyone had a say. Both groups achieved the goal -- they just got there differently."

 

 

This sort of blanket statement I find really irritating, mainly because there are now SO MANY studies out there that ALSO show how parents push these kinds of differences onto children from a young age. Women probably do NOT "naturally" cooperate; but we're penalised for fighting more strongly than boys are, guided toward seeing ourselves as 'caretakers' more than boys are, and criticised if we fail to show empathy.

 

 

A few studies/tests I remember:

 

Children put in a ring they had to climb out of: parents helped girls sooner than boys when they had difficulty with the task!

 

Baby randomly assigned pink or blue outfit and shown to people: people called the pink-clad babies "pretty" and "delicate", the blue-clad babies "strong" regardless of the baby's actual sex!

 

Children throwing/striking a toy on the ground where parents can see: Girls are told "don't hit your doll, that hurts her"; boys told "don't break your toys"!

 

 

Not to mention that, as adults, women's opinions are often less valued than men's; it may be that the ONLY way you can get your boss to listen is to apply pressure through sheer numbers. So your choice is to collaborate, or not be heard... If men faced that, they'd cooperate too!

 

 

[Kestra15]

Not to mention that, as adults, women's opinions are often less valued than men's; it may be that the ONLY way you can get your boss to listen is to apply pressure through sheer numbers. So your choice is to collaborate, or not be heard... If men faced that, they'd cooperate too!

Proof? I've yet to see that in any workplace.

 

Given that I'm female, and U.S. women still earn only 77 cents for every dollar men make?

What reason is there for that gap?

[Alpha1]

but we're penalised for fighting more strongly than boys are

 

Two women with PMS can burn a whole house down.

 

 

[Princess Artemis]

Proof? I've yet to see that in any workplace.

Yet to see what?

[Kila]

I really do understand at makeup counters having an expectation that the workers will use the products since that's what they sell. It's the whole rest of the workforce that has nothing to do with makeup but still requiring it that makes my hackles rise.

 

But...it's still sexist. It does make sense for a seller to like the product they sell and to show them off if they can. If the women are required to wear eyeshadow, the men should be too. After all, makeup does the exact same thing for men as it does women. Plus, it might get more male buyers if they saw what the products could do and/or knew they weren't going to be looked at funny for shopping there!

 

"Look, Bob, you're a good salesman, the best we have, but I'm going to have to ask you to pay more attention to your lipstick."

 

A woman seller of, say, Apple computers and iPhones, should not be required to both buy and use more Apple products than the men so that both will be knowledgeable and enthusiastic about the products. That would be very obviously sexist.

 

The women in the links a few posts above didn't work at makeup counters though. One was a waitress and the other worked in a different department.

If the man works in men's skin care products he should probably use them, or if he works in women's cosmetics he should know how to put makeup on women. I don't think women would buy from a man with purple eyeshadow and mascara, to be completely honest Guyliner works for some men, but not all. there's also a certain stigma that comes with guyliner (emo/scene).

 

The waitress, I can understand. Waitstaff are the face of a restaurant. They need to always appear busy so that customers don't see them slacking off, they need to look professional and makeup, more often than not, helps one look more put together.

 

I'd say it's the same for any sales associate. Look put together and knowledgeable. I don't think it's fair for a company to force women to wear makeup, but they have an appearance to keep.

[Kestra15]

Yet to see what?

A woman's opinion being 'less valued' in the workplace.

[Princess Artemis]

If the man works in men's skin care products he should probably use them, or if he works in women's cosmetics he should know how to put makeup on women. I don't think women would buy from a man with purple eyeshadow and mascara, to be completely honest Guyliner works for some men, but not all. there's also a certain stigma that comes with guyliner (emo/scene).

Makeup works for some women, but not all. That's not taken into account, so why should men get that benefit?

 

The waitress, I can understand. Waitstaff are the face of a restaurant. They need to always appear busy so that customers don't see them slacking off, they need to look professional and makeup, more often than not, helps one look more put together.

 

I'd say it's the same for any sales associate. Look put together and knowledgeable. I don't think it's fair for a company to force women to wear makeup, but they have an appearance to keep.

 

Why does it help them look professional? Why does painting her face give the impression that a woman is knowledgeable about auto parts or CDs? Because society is sexist and cannot stand the idea of looking at an unpainted, natural woman whereas unpainted, natural men are A-OK.

 

This is the whole point of it. The appearance they have to keep is a sexist appearance. Making that known might make inroads to change it.

 

A woman's opinion being 'less valued' in the workplace.

 

You've also taken great pains to point out that you are a man working in a place full of women. I won't say how that works for you, but I suspect that if your opinion is valued more than your colleagues, it might happen less often and less noticeably since there are so few of you men and so many of them women. Same thing would happen with one woman working in a place with a hundred men--unless they were egregious about it, it would be hard to notice if and when it happens simply because of sample size.

 

http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2010...check-list.html has some anecdotes which relate to women's opinions being less valued in the workplace. It's not "proof", but "proof" in human experience is hard to come by, unless one is doing math. People believe a lot of things that they only have evidence of, not proof.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Riverwillows]

Our current world society is pretty much "man-based". This means most of the current ideas of what is beautiful, professional, positive, etc. is from a male point of view.

 

Women are brought up with this from the time they are babies, so when they reach teens and adulthood, even the most independent woman is subliminally affected and behaves accordingly to varying degrees.

 

Our society is immersed in what MEN find attractive and correct. And if something or someone is just a little bit off from that expectation, they are less desirable - whether personally, or professionally.

 

Wish I lived elsewhere sometimes.