Sexism

[Rosedamai]

Oh yes, and forgot to mention this:

 

Does anyone else feel that it's sexist if a company requires you to post your pictures in your resume?

 

This has resulted in so many women getting cosmetic surgery in some cases.

 

Does your country accept resumes with pictures?

 

Are women's looks considered an asset to the company?

 

In this situation, would it be acceptable for a woman to get surgery?

 

Please, I'd like some discussions. I'm graduating from my university in about 2 years time or so, and I'd like some opinion in this subject.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ylangylang

[The Evil Doer]

It is extremely sexist if only females are required to do so.

 

Edit : Looks of both males and females are considered an asset to most companies as people respond better to good looking people.

 

One of the weird cases would be in China where often companies pay white suited men to come to their events because, “Having foreigners in nice suits gives the company face."

Edited February 7, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Rosedamai]

It is extremely sexist if only females are required to do so.

I guess it is then. Sigh..........I wonder if I'd have to go under the knife, so to speak, in order to land a decent job.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ylangylang

[The Evil Doer]

I guess it is then. Sigh..........I wonder if I'd have to go under the knife, so to speak, in order to land a decent job.

I say, forget about the knife and look for a suitable work place in another country

[Rosedamai]

I say, forget about the knife and look for a suitable work place in another country

Lol if it were that easy I'd doubt they'd accept my qualifications as they were earned in another country Even if I'd not get surgery I'd also be required to wear makeup full time, whether I'm a surgeon, a sailor, or a soldier (*WTF moment there*) but at least it is getting better.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ylangylang

[Princess Artemis]

@Princess A. I didn't ask of you to generalize, I asked about what do you see around you as in other women in your environment ?

 

May I ask whether you have pets ?

You asked me to enlighten you as to what "every woman needs"--pretty generalized sweeping there!

 

Mostly I see a desire for companionship in the women in my environment. That I get. I don't particularly want that level of companionship, but I don't want to be a hermit either, so I'm not.

 

I do have a pet, which I got after feeling particularly maternal. Wanting a puppy is about as maternal as I get. My dog certainly isn't going to protect me nor provide for me; he's too little. Yeah, he's companionship too, but not the kind that intrudes more than I desire.

 

I'm not a spinster yet, but I'm sure I will be someday. It's not because I hate men, either. Or humans in general. I like people a lot.

 

And thank you Kestra : )

 

@ylangylang, I don't know if it's sexist to require photos with resumes. I think it's weird, though, and if the result is more women (but not more men) getting plastic surgery, there is certainly sexism afoot somewhere in the process. That's pretty awful :/

Edited February 7, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[The Evil Doer]

Lol if it were that easy I'd doubt they'd accept my qualifications as they were earned in another country Even if I'd not get surgery I'd also be required to wear makeup full time, whether I'm a surgeon, a sailor, or a soldier (*WTF moment there*) but at least it is getting better.

They wouldnt accept your qualifications but Im assuming that in your country it is a bachelor's degree so if you were to score a scholarship and go to the states, for example, you would go to a graduate school and in two years would be a lawyer.

In Europe you would just need to pass the test.

 

People move all the time, it's a far better option than going under the knife if you ask me, and yes you can do it as scary as it sounds.

People much more retarded than you have done it so you can as well, if you choose to.

[Rosedamai]

They wouldnt accept your qualifications but Im assuming that in your country it is a bachelor's degree so if you were to score a scholarship and go to the states, for example, you would go to a graduate school and in two years would be a lawyer.

In Europe you would just need to pass the test.

 

People move all the time, it's a far better option than going under the knife if you ask me, and yes you can do it as scary as it sounds.

People much more retarded than you have done it so you can as well, if you choose to.

Thanks. I'll try to convince my parents that they won't be able to see their daughter for a long time now...

 

I don't know if it's sexist to require photos with resumes. I think it's weird, though, and if the result is more women (but not more men) getting plastic surgery, there is certainly sexism afoot somewhere in the process. That's pretty awful :/

 

Well, it's anecdotal, but I know plenty of older women who was expressly told that she needs to "lighten up her face" which is a euphemism for "make your face prettier", some that were not accepted w/ better qualifications while their prettier counterparts w/ less qualifications were accepted, and I do know that the cosmetic surgery business rakes in a lot of money during the "recruiting" season (and the start of universities as well-people don't want that disparity between their older pictures and newer pictures to show) so I guess there's a lot of covert sexism. As well as a lot of photoshop used in the resume pictures.

 

Strange that you require a picture to gauge a person's ability, eh? :/

[Slaskia]

Even if I'd not get surgery I'd also be required to wear makeup full time, whether I'm a surgeon, a sailor, or a soldier (*WTF moment there*) but at least it is getting better.

Just popping in to commit on this bit here. I was in the US Air Force for over 12 years, working as an administrator and I never wore make-up the whole time I was in. So...at least in the USAF you won't get flack for not 'painting your face on' .

[The Evil Doer]

You asked me to enlighten you as to what "every woman needs"--pretty generalized sweeping there!

 

Mostly I see a desire for companionship in the women in my environment. That I get. I don't particularly want that level of companionship, but I don't want to be a hermit either, so I'm not.

 

I do have a pet, which I got after feeling particularly maternal. Wanting a puppy is about as maternal as I get. My dog certainly isn't going to protect me nor provide for me; he's too little. Yeah, he's companionship too, but not the kind that intrudes more than I desire.

 

I'm not a spinster yet, but I'm sure I will be someday. It's not because I hate men, either. Or humans in general. I like people a lot.

 

And thank you Kestra : )

 

@ylangylang, I don't know if it's sexist to require photos with resumes. I think it's weird, though, and if the result is more women (but not more men) getting plastic surgery, there is certainly sexism afoot somewhere in the process. That's pretty awful :/

In a post afterwards I asked about your experiences but never mind.

 

Your dog indeed won't protect nor provide for you but having one hardly screams solitude as you're never really alone, I dont know a thing about your life nor about your past relationships assuming there were some but while people are capable of breaking your heart, animals provide unconditional love, so while you are claiming that you have no need for a partner to provide some psychological need that little puppy of yours is filling some sort of a void, however as I said I dont know a thing about you so I may be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time.

 

Dropping it though, because all this hardly has anything to do with sexism at this point, and I dont feel like derailing the thread.

 

If I have managed to upset or to offend you somehow, I really am sorry as it wasnt my intention.

[BlackStar159]

Sexism exists towards both males and females whether people like it or not. We are trained since childhood of certain sexist assumptions (in general) like "boys play with action figures and sports while girls play with barbies and dress up as fairies and such" and although that is a kind of general statement, the concept can be applied elsewhere. ie. only men can play pro football, nursing is considered a women's profession and many more.

so sexism exists and is ingrained in us since childhood and although we can try and suppress such sexist thoughts, it can still pop up.

Edited February 7, 2012 by BlackStar159

[philpot123]

In this situation, would it be acceptable for a woman to get surgery?

 

Is it ever unacceptable for a woman to get surgery if she wants it? If the sole reason is trying to appeal to a pig who only hires women based on looks then I would say think long and hard about it. But ultimately it's your choice.

[Rosedamai]

Is it ever unacceptable for a woman to get surgery if she wants it? If the sole reason is trying to appeal to a pig who only hires women based on looks then I would say think long and hard about it. But ultimately it's your choice.

Thanks. It's just a bit of pressure when recruiters say stuff to your friends who've graduated early or other people around you and you get very insecure about yourself.

[Obscure_Trash]

You have got to be kidding  .

That has nothing to do with sexism.

 

The world we are living in goes by a simple rule of PERCEPTION IS REALITY, hence a woman who spends some time to put her make up on will indeed be perceived as more presentable and professional than someone who cant be bothered with that, in a same manner a guy wearing a t-shirt and jeans doesnt look as professional as someone in a suit does.

 

You can be a genius or a **, it doesnt really matter, the only thing that matters is how you are peceived by the world.

 

To dumb it down -

 

Girl doesnt want to bother with make up sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

Guy doesnt want to bother with shaving (natural look as you would call it) sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

 

If you "dont give a damn" you dont look professional.

Those are the rules that apply to either of the genders, as simple as that.

Is there a reason I can't be presentable without makeup on? Men can be presentable without shaving. There is a difference in caring for your looks and being forced to wear makeup. I have seen scraggly beards and I have seen nice, combed beards, long and short. I have seen women look presentable with and without makeup and the same for not presentable. I have seen men look presentable with and without shaving and the same for not presentable.

 

When I have to wear makeup to look professional, yes, there is something wrong.

 

Men don't/shouldn't have to shave as much as women don't/shouldn't have to wear makeup.

 

If we have to shave to look presentable it's pretty much the same thing.

 

If you don't wear makeup but do shower, do your hair, wear neat, clean clothes that are a good fit and business appropriate, nobody wont say a damn thing to you about your makeup as long as your natural face doesnt look like you are in a hangover.

 

Newscaster women who got the job because of their looks will indeed be expendable once old, the same applies to male newscasters who were hired for their looks, you can see the same phenomena in the movie industry for both males and females, the only difference is that we have a longer "shelf life" hence we keep our jobs a bit more when its "appearances related", it has nothing to do with sexism but everything to do with the shallow world we live in where pretty people have it easier, it's nothing new and it has nothing to do with gender.

 

We should place less value on outer beauty and more on inner beauty.

 

I've always liked this comic from alexandra dal.

 

 

Hah. x3

 

Am I missing something here or are you guys seeing sexism in everything, coz when you try hard enough you can see whatever you want to see.

 

Warning for language and angry ranting: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/200...-for-stuff.html

 

I played sports, I went to the gym, I studied so I would get paid, all those things us men do are so we can get women

 

Try being yourself rather than wearing a mask.

 

girls are looking for that security, for that guy who can provide, not in a sense of girls wanna sit on their asses and have somebody work for them but in a sense of every girl wants her guy to be a protector and a provider, thats what we bring to the table.

 

I certainly am not looking for "protection". If I was looking for protection, I'd hire a bodyguard.

 

Girls try to look pretty, they do it so they can get guys, thats how it works, its not sexist, its basic human nature.

 

People should "look pretty" for themselves. This goes for both guys and girls.

 

some of you are tomboys others are trying to reject their feminine side or whatever, as if being a gentle girl is a bad thing for some reason

 

Why can't we act how we like, not how you expect us to?

 

BUT all that doesnt change the basic fact which is that most of the girls are looking for that alpha male and most of the guys are looking for that alpha female, thats how survival of any specie works, thats our nature as humans.

 

Links/studies? If I can find it, there was a pretty interesting experiment on how we actually try to get with someone who we perceive as 'on the same ground as us', equal, rather than "the best".

 

Women getting paid less than us, thats sexism, women putting on a make up to look prettier, come on give me a break here.

 

Woman being forced to wear makeup? =|

 

ETA:

I'll elaborate. No, no no no, and nooooo. This makes quite the assumption that every woman really, deep down, whether she knows it or not, just needs a man, and OMG no.

 

Thank you.

 

Every person, male and female, looks for safety and security.

 

Completely different from the argument that women need men to be safe or to live.

 

Dont really understand your response, sounds as if you despise men for some reason but that's your thing, with that being said, YES ! Most women need a man or a woman, it doesnt matter which way they're swinging but indeed the answer is yes, that rule applies to most people as we are social beings after all.

 

Warning for lots of language: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/200...are-babies.html

 

If you dont need that feeling of safety as provided by a man or a woman, what do you reckon you need ? Solitude ? A pet ? Im curious.

 

Everybody is different and I don't believe anybody needs just one specific thing. That's putting us into boxes and painting the world gray.

 

Oh yes, and forgot to mention this:

 

Does anyone else feel that it's sexist if a company requires you to post your pictures in your resume?

 

This has resulted in so many women getting cosmetic surgery in some cases.

 

Does your country accept resumes with pictures?

 

Are women's looks considered an asset to the company?

 

In this situation, would it be acceptable for a woman to get surgery?

 

Please, I'd like some discussions. I'm graduating from my university in about 2 years time or so, and I'd like some opinion in this subject.

 

A picture should not be required unless you're trying for something like model in which the whole business is looks.

 

But this goes back to my earlier comment of "we should focus more on inner beauty than outer beauty." As a geologist, the most important thing should be my knowledge of geology, my writing skills, my interpersonal skills, etc. Things I'm going to use for my job.

 

Yes, I do think people need to care for themselves and show this with personal hygiene and such, but that's a different matter.

 

Is it ever unacceptable for a woman to get surgery if she wants it? If the sole reason is trying to appeal to a pig who only hires women based on looks then I would say think long and hard about it. But ultimately it's your choice.

 

I agree that as long as a woman (any person, really) is doing it for themselves, then I really don't have a problem with it. This is a good point. :3

Edited February 7, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[The Evil Doer]

Warning for language and angry ranting: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/200...-for-stuff.html

 

Link to a feminist site, heh, one step closer to a female chauvinism

 

Try being yourself rather than wearing a mask.

 

Have we met ? Do you know a single thing about me or about my life to deduce Im not being myself ?

On what planet is a goal oriented person being untrue to himself only coz he uses his talents to get what he wants I wonder ?

 

Why can't we act how we like, not how you expect us to?

 

Coz I said so, wait... Where did I say you should or must be what I expect you to be ? Do you use your psychic powers for good coz its really impressive that you can read my mind and tell me what I expect of you or of anyone else for that matter ?

 

Links/studies? If I can find it, there was a pretty interesting experiment on how we actually try to get with someone who we perceive as 'on the same ground as us', equal, rather than "the best".

 

Links and studies would be, I'll make it interesting for you, whether you're in highschool/college/any other place, ask around -

 

How many guys are into a hot cheerleader/prom queen as opposed to being into an unattractive girl ?

How many girls are into a hot athletic/successful guy as opposed to being into a nerdy dude who excels in nothing besides video games ?

 

I'm sure you will discover interesting facts, as well as how many of your friends are lying their asses off.

 

Woman being forced to wear makeup? =|

 

If you apply for a job and one of job requirements is to wear certain dress code and put on a make up then you have knowingly accepted that role, hence your boss can fire you if you refuse to play by the rules, however if nowhere did it state that you must wear makeup nor dress in a certain manner, your boss cant make you wear it nor fire you for it, if he does so you can sue and win, simple as that.

Edited February 7, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Fuzzbucket]

Will those women not expect their husbands to protect them from danger (physical danger for example) ?

 

Will those women (career women) be attracted to guys who cant provide financially, guys who cant hold a job, with no degrees etc or will they look for someone who is at least on their level (career wise) ??

No and why not ?

 

I never even considered whether the guy I settled down with could provide for me, and I am quite capable of looking after myself, thank you. Career level - why should the woman not have the higher status/pay job ? It often happens these days. Are MEN looking to cash in on that ?

 

I wasn't actually "looking" for anyone (SURPRISE - a woman does not NEED a man...) - I was attracted to someone who interested me, who was on my wavelength as a person and so on. His appearance didn't come into it. I never ever asked him what money he had or what job he was thinking of.

 

I held down a job for years, too. I didn't work while pregnant wit my second child - but I would have if I'd wanted to - I took advantage of his having a salary ! And NOTHING would induce me to have plastic surgery except - say - post mastectomy - and that simply because clothes would be easier to buy. I don't wear make-up - it smells nasty - though I do have a cover stick, if that counts, as I have a solar keratosis on my face, and it worries people, so it's sometimes (not usually) easier to cover it up than discuss whether or not it will kill me (no.)

 

To dumb it down -

 

Girl doesnt want to bother with make up sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

Guy doesnt want to bother with shaving (natural look as you would call it) sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

 

If you "dont give a damn" you dont look professional.

Those are the rules that apply to either of the genders, as simple as that.

It's not polite to say rubbish. So I won't. But believe me, I am thinking it. I never wore make-up at work in 25 + years in a relatively high position, either, not even the cover stick. I did my job well, and one thing I was NEVER charged with was looking in any way unprofessional. In fact now that I think of it I still have one of my annual job evaluations which actually SAYS "appearance is professional at all times."

 

Now, not WASHING would be unprofessional.

 

ETA as we cross posted - athletic types REALLY turn me off - and most of my (female) friends, too. They are so often male bubble heads, never mind rather ugly.

 

Job requirements and dress code - I THINK that short of uniform, and even that has been successfully fought on religious grounds (turbans instead of police hats, for instance) requiring make-up would be against the law in many places - not least because of allergies and discrimination.

Edited February 7, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Alpha1]

Links/studies? If I can find it, there was a pretty interesting experiment on how we actually try to get with someone who we perceive as 'on the same ground as us', equal, rather than "the best".

 

http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site...id_attract.html

 

This is probably what you're referring to:

 

Matching Hypothesis

 

"One hypothesis is that people will select for romantic liasons those who are of their own social desirability level. A person's romantic aspirations are influenced by their overall goal aspirations. However, it also depends on the probability of relations -- a person of lower social desirability may expect a rejection if they approach someone much higher than they are.

 

[...]

 

Another study by the author found support of the "matching principle". Physically attractive dates were preferred by everyone, though people of less attractiveness tended to choose less attractive dates than highly attractive individuals.

 

Another study confirmed that people make dating choices partly based on the probability of rejection. Men asked to choose between women chose the most physically attractive girl more often when assured they would not be rejected. Men who rated themselves as highly attractive percieved their chances greater than less attractive men.

 

The converse of the matching principle also seems true. Studies showed that couples seem to have similar levels of physical attractiveness. People of similar attractiveness levels showed more outward affection to each other too."

 

They would go higher, but choices are made by what the perceived outcome would be.

 

As for Evil Doer's "alpha male" argument, I'd word it better.

 

Women like men with confidence. If a male doesn't have confidence, there goes a lot of the dating pool. How many women like to play hero?

 

How many guys are into a hot cheerleader/prom queen as opposed to being into an unattractive girl ?

How many girls are into a hot athletic/successful guy as opposed to being into a nerdy dude who excels in nothing besides video games ?

 

Why did you add "excels in nothing" for the guy, but no additional information for the unattractive girl?

 

[Kestra15]

http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site...id_attract.html

 

This is probably what you're referring to:

 

Matching Hypothesis

 

"One hypothesis is that people will select for romantic liasons those who are of their own social desirability level. A person's romantic aspirations are influenced by their overall goal aspirations. However, it also depends on the probability of relations -- a person of lower social desirability may expect a rejection if they approach someone much higher than they are.

 

[...]

 

Another study by the author found support of the "matching principle". Physically attractive dates were preferred by everyone, though people of less attractiveness tended to choose less attractive dates than highly attractive individuals.

 

Another study confirmed that people make dating choices partly based on the probability of rejection. Men asked to choose between women chose the most physically attractive girl more often when assured they would not be rejected. Men who rated themselves as highly attractive percieved their chances greater than less attractive men.

 

The converse of the matching principle also seems true. Studies showed that couples seem to have similar levels of physical attractiveness. People of similar attractiveness levels showed more outward affection to each other too."

 

They would go higher, but choices are made by what the perceived outcome would be.

 

As for Evil Doer's "alpha male" argument, I'd word it better.

 

Women like men with confidence. If a male doesn't have confidence, there goes a lot of the dating pool. How many women like to play hero?

 

 

 

Why did you add "excels in nothing" for the guy, but no additional information for the unattractive girl?

I clearly buck the trend then, given that I was outright told I was punching well above my weight when I ended up with a woman who not only earns more than me and always will, but had more in savings when I met her than I've earned in seven years of my working life, and stunning enough to genuinely be a model.

 

As for women playing hero, depends what you mean by 'hero.'

 

Although I still hold that everyone looks for comfort and protection.

[Alpha1]

I clearly buck the trend then, given that I was outright told I was punching well above my weight when I ended up with a woman who not only earns more than me and always will, but had more in savings when I met her than I've earned in seven years of my working life, and stunning enough to genuinely be a model.

 

I'm sure any guy would get told that if their partner made more. Jokingly or not.

 

As for women playing hero, depends what you mean by 'hero.'

 

Although I still hold that everyone looks for comfort and protection.

 

http://endswithmarriage.com/do-heroes-still-exist/

 

"My female friends have been telling me they wish there were real life heroes. Real life, living heroes who could sweep them off their feet. Men who can hold them up when they fall. Men who can protect them. Men who are strong enough to lift them up emotionally.

 

They think about the Twilight series with Edward and Jacob. My female friends view these two men as heroes of Bella. They want to protect her, they want to love her, they make her problems their problems, they are one with her, they love her that deeply."

 

When do guys talk like this, and is it even socially acceptable?

[Fuzzbucket]

When do guys talk like this, and is it even socially acceptable?

Dunno, and IMHO - no

 

ICK !

[Kestra15]

I'm sure any guy would get told that if their partner made more. Jokingly or not.

The money thing has only been in the last six months.

[Princess Artemis]

They think about the Twilight series with Edward and Jacob. My female friends view these two men as heroes of Bella. They want to protect her, they want to love her, they make her problems their problems, they are one with her, they love her that deeply."

 

When do guys talk like this, and is it even socially acceptable?

>_<

 

Edward is a creepy stalker with no respect for Bella's boundaries. Gah.

 

Anyhow, no idea if guys talk like that, and it probably wouldn't be socially acceptable for guys to do so even if they wanted to. Which sucks.

 

Not sure how much stock to put into a blog that has a main page entitled "Women aren't crazy, they're just bipolar" though. There is so much wrong with that, and I really don't feel like getting into it :/ There's only so much energy to poke at this kind of insidious stupidity in a week.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Alpha Gryph]

"My female friends have been telling me they wish there were real life heroes. Real life, living heroes who could sweep them off their feet. Men who can hold them up when they fall. Men who can protect them. Men who are strong enough to lift them up emotionally.

 

They think about the Twilight series with Edward and Jacob. My female friends view these two men as heroes of Bella. They want to protect her, they want to love her, they make her problems their problems, they are one with her, they love her that deeply."

 

When do guys talk like this, and is it even socially acceptable?

Goodness. This would be one of those points when people need to realize the difference between reality and fantasy. Men are overly romanticized in movies so much, it isn't even funny.

 

Not to say that there aren't good guys out there. It just distorts peoples' expectations of relationships a tad too much. And for whatever reason it's done more often with male characters~

Edited February 7, 2012 by Alpha Gryph

[Sadako]

Not to say that there aren't good guys out there.  It just distorts peoples' expectations of relationships a tad too much. And for whatever reason it's done more often with male characters~

 

Oh it certainly isn't done more often with male characters! Where do you think the image of 'the perfect woman' as a small, slender, demure, painted, submissive, sweet, quiet, etc. etc. doll who loves to cook and clean, and never interrupts, and has a soft voice, and constantly comments on how big and strong her man is, etc. etc. came from? It is unquestionable that both genders are romanticized and distorted in fiction.

[Riverwillows]

Oh it certainly isn't done more often with male characters! Where do you think the image of 'the perfect woman' as a small, slender, demure, painted, submissive, sweet, quiet, etc. etc. doll who loves to cook and clean, and never interrupts, and has a soft voice, and constantly comments on how big and strong her man is, etc. etc. came from? It is unquestionable that both genders are romanticized and distorted in fiction.

You forgot to mention all that PLUS a HUGE BOOBAGE!!