Sexism

[Obscure_Trash]

I've been thinking about it and I finally figured out what bothers me so much about the 'well, I've only met crazy feminists' argument.

 

Unless someone has a shirt or sticker or something denoting their belief - any belief: 'Obama,' 'gay rights,'feminist,' or it comes up in conversation or something, how are you supposed to know anything about someone? Half your class could be feminists and you wouldn't even know. Three-quarters of the people sitting in the restaurant with you could be feminists and you wouldn't even know.

 

Just like people fighting for any type of equality, we're not a constant walking source of advertising and debate. We may find ourselves staying quite in a place we don't feel comfortable in and, for safety reasons, may not speak up when you might expect us to.

 

I bet you've all met tons of feminists who you wouldn't consider crazy. You just don't know it.

And how can we possibly show you without coming off as what you perceive as crazy? Are we supposed to always wear labels? Introduce ourselves with our name and beliefs to everyone?

[lovergurl497]

I'm a huge feminest when it comes to sexism. The whole "Women belong in the kitchen" and "Make me a sandwich, *" is the main things that bother me. Women don't belong in the kitchen. In today's society women are on the same level as men and some are getting even higher then men. There's seriously no difference between and man and a women besides their private parts.

 

Now when it's male sexism where "Don't hit girls" and "I can't do it, I'm a girl". That's a whole different story. If guys can hit guys and girls can hit girls, what's there to stop a guy and a girl getting in a fight? It just looks bad on the guy then. If the guys don't look bad for hitting other guys, why should the guy look like crap if he gets in a fight with a girls? I also don't like the fact of 'Girl push ups'.

 

Shouldn't we be focussing on equallity rather than making ourselves as women look defenseless and weak? Man up!

Edited March 20, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Fuzzbucket]

Now when it's male sexism where "Don't hit girls" and "I can't do it, I'm a girl". That's a whole different story. If guys can hit guys and girls can hit girls, what's there to stop a guy and a girl getting in a fight? It just looks bad on the guy then. If the guys don't look bad for hitting other guys, why should the guy look like crap if he gets in a fight with a girls? I also don't like the fact of 'Girl push ups'.

Why shouldn't there be a fight between the sexes ? I don't like fights at all, but I refuse to buy into the idea that they can only be same-gender fights.

 

And what the is wrong with girl push-ups ? I used to do them all the time at the gym

[skauble]

Now when it's male sexism where "Don't hit girls" and "I can't do it, I'm a girl". That's a whole different story. If guys can hit guys and girls can hit girls, what's there to stop a guy and a girl getting in a fight? It just looks bad on the guy then. If the guys don't look bad for hitting other guys, why should the guy look like crap if he gets in a fight with a girls? I also don't like the fact of 'Girl push ups'.

 

Shouldn't we be focussing on equallity rather than making ourselves as women look defenseless and weak? Man up!

IMO, physical altercations between men and women is a hard problem to tackle.

 

On the one hand, there is the stereotype that women are the weaker sex and that it's wrong to hit them on that basis.

 

But, on the other hand, there's a very real issue that actually goes beyond the actual physical nature of the fight.

 

Sexism is very institutionalized. It's ingrained in the fabric of society and we're only now beginning to unravel that. When I was growing up the message that women should be the more submissive gender was often blatantly stated, which was then backed up in a number of other ways (anyone who read romance novels from 30 years ago can attest to that lol). These days, it's not always so openly pushed, but the "that's a man's job" mentality still has a stronghold in a lot of ways.

 

So, when a man hits a woman, we're not just talking about an issue of strength, but about the fact that you have two people fighting - one who is still subtely (and not so subtley) taught to be submissive by society, and one who is still subtely (and not so subtley) overly empowered by society. That's an incredibly inequitable situation, and it has nothing to do with physical power.

 

In any situation, and I think this applies to all of us because it goes beyond just matters of the sexes, when you have a larger share of the power, you also have to cary a larger share of the responsibility for not misusing it. Looking bad for hitting a woman isn't simply because a guy may, or may not, be physically stronger, but because they're being aggressive with someone who may very well be socially conditioned to not defend themselves as much with a man, or to eventually give in.

 

I understand where it seems unfair, but that's really because these situations (about things like men and women fighting) generally don't also acknowledge that men have this enormous benefit that comes with living in a society that is still tilted in their favor.

[The Evil Doer]

Women are indeed a physically weaker sex, the sterotype is also the undeniable truth and has been as such for the past 3000+ years.

 

Any girl/guy who thinks otherwise or says hilarious stuff like "man up" is either a little kid or simply put a "reality challenged" person, furthermore to say something as ridiculous as man up when thousands/millions of women are being raped every day/year is just offensive....

[Fuzzbucket]

Women are indeed a physically weaker sex, the sterotype is also the undeniable truth and has been as such for the past 3000+ years.

 

Any girl/guy who thinks otherwise or says hilarious stuff like "man up" is either a little kid or simply put a "reality challenged" person, furthermore to say something as ridiculous as man up when thousands/millions of women are being raped every day/year is just offensive....

Up to a point. I defy you to be stronger than my 5 foot tall daughter. Who used to be a bouncer for a shelter for drunks and addicts and believe me.... (she met a 6 foot 6 guy she had thrown out once, in the dark She was a little worried. but he was so scared he muttered "I remember you, you're a *bleep* good bouncer" and slunk away...)

 

The stereotypes often come from the way we are brought up, so that woman don't develop the same musculature as men. We can - we just don't bother.

Edited March 20, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Princess Artemis]

I don't think we should be hitting each other regardless. Also what skauble said. Also, men are victims of domestic violence sometimes, and the gender divide on this point makes it incredibly hard for them to find relief. Also...why tell girls and women to "man up"? That's indicative of an outlook where men are superior. Up to and until it means exactly the same thing to tell boys and men to "Woman up!", we have a problem with sexism.

[The Evil Doer]

Up to a point. I defy you to be stronger than my 5 foot tall daughter. Who used to be a bouncer for a shelter for drunks and addicts and believe me.... (she met a 6 foot 6 guy she had thrown out once, in the dark She was a little worried. but he was so scared he muttered "I remember you, you're a *** good bouncer* and slunk away...)

 

The stereotypes often come from the way we are brought up, so that woman don't develop the same musculature as men. We can - we just don't bother.

Fuzzy, maybe she would be stronger than me but then again maybe she wouldn't, it doesnt really matter, toughest girl alive will still be weaker when compared to the toughest guy alive, its basic physics, we are stronger and larger hence by default the "stronger sex", there is no way around it...

 

Mental equality or equality in general should be a reality, physical equality just cant happen unless evolution puts us all through a drastic change of a sort...

Edited March 20, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[St. Jimmy]

Shouldn't we be focussing on equallity rather than making ourselves as women look defenseless and weak? Man up!

I find the term "man up" pretty sexist in itself. Girls can "woman up" and be just as tough.

 

Fuzzy, maybe she would be stronger than me but then again maybe she wouldn't, it doesnt really matter, toughest girl alive will still be weaker when compared to the toughest guy alive, its basic physics, we are stronger and larger hence by default the "stronger sex", there is no way around it...

Does it really matter who's physically tougher? To me, the mental ability to endure things says a lot more about how strong someone is.

Edited March 20, 2012 by St. Jimmy

[The Evil Doer]

Does it really matter who's physically tougher? To me, the mental ability to endure things says a lot more about how strong someone is.

I didnt say it matters I was merely stating a fact as a response to the "we're not a weaker sex, we can fight guys and women should man up"...

[Obscure_Trash]

Since I think I've had to take care of this more in this thread than any other, posting a reminder.

 

Reminder/Explanation of Rules: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=100400

 

Censor Evasion

 

If you can still tell exactly what word it is supposed to be, then it is censor evasion.

As an example, take the word "tale". Now let's suppose that tale is automatically censored out. The censor would replace tale by four *s, and thus a . If you want to censor yourself out, you can replace every use of the word tale with four *s and thus achieve the same thing as the censor. However, anything else is considered censor evasion, including but not limited to:

t*le, t4le, t***, and t**e

 

~

 

I also don't like the fact of 'Girl push ups'.

 

I absolutely loathe "girl push ups". Gym always had boys do "real push ups" and girls do "girl push ups". Everyone was always surprised when I could rip off more "real push ups" than anybody else and actually do them with the correct form. The boys spent all their time complaining and asking if they could do "girl push ups" (and either being told 'no' or 'if you're too weak, yes') and the girls always made fun of the guys for having to do "real push ups".

 

Of course, I'm on the side of - why would you cheat yourself of this exercise, anyway, even in elementary and middle school, so the whole thing was extremely frustrating and annoying.

 

Fuzzy, maybe she would be stronger than me but then again maybe she wouldn't, it doesnt really matter, toughest girl alive will still be weaker when compared to the toughest guy alive, its basic physics,

 

There is always someone better than you. Always. I don't think there can be an absolute toughest. It's a combination of strength - physical and mental, will, skill, speed, etc.

 

I don't think we should be hitting each other regardless.

 

Completely agreed.

 

I find the term "man up" pretty sexist in itself.

 

Yup. Our language is centered around cement the fact that men are big and strong and tough and better and you don't want to be a woman.

 

Women are indeed a physically weaker sex, the sterotype is also the undeniable truth and has been as such for the past 3000+ years.

 

Humans are fascinating because we aren't black and white as people like to think. Some links of possible interest:

 

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20fol...fatigueUNM.html

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/news/press/ClarkStudy08/index.htm

http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/gender.shtml

 

We've all got different levels of hormones and different body distributions and etc.

 

I think it's better to say something like 'those with x amount of x hormone, on average, tend to do better than those with x amount of x hormone in x activity' rather than just men versus women or white versus black or old versus young. Humans are a really diverse mix. We can't just be shoved into two categories, IMO.

[Fuzzbucket]

Censor Evasion

 

If you can still tell exactly what word it is supposed to be, then it is censor evasion.

As an example, take the word "tale". Now let's suppose that tale is automatically censored out. The censor would replace tale by four *s, and thus a censorkip.gif . If you want to censor yourself out, you can replace every use of the word tale with four *s and thus achieve the same thing as the censor. However, anything else is considered censor evasion, including but not limited to:

t*le, t4le, t***, and t**e

Oh dear - if you mean mine, I just posted a big long line of stars.... the kips picked out four to kippify - I will edit...

 

It was originally a 7 letter word, in fact, but probably not the one everyone might have thunk... Just FYI

 

ETA OMG - there are special GIRL pushups ? I thought you just meant people DOING pushups and it was mean to make girls do them. The ones they made us do in the gym were the same for us all. Just age related - the terminally ancient (as in even older them ME) got to rest on their elbows, was all.

Edited March 20, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Obscure_Trash]

No wonder your reply confused me, fuzz. XD

 

"Girl push up": http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/trr...men_pushups.jpg

Although the girls in the gym did not have to hold their legs up, simply rest anything below their knees on the ground.

 

Glad to hear not all places were like my school. >.>

 

(Fortunately, when I got to high school I had an awesome martial arts teacher who, when someone asked if they could do a 'girl push up' just glared at them and watched them do more push ups than everyone else, lol.)

[Fuzzbucket]

Geez that is so FEEBLE ! I am amazed and also gobsmacked.... (also you'd get carpet burn on your knees. No thanks.)

 

I have learned something new today....

 

ETA I referred to a grownups gym, where I used to go after work.... We NEVER did such things in SCHOOL; it was all running around after a ball in the mud, and climbing ropes

Edited March 20, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Obscure_Trash]

Yeah, I'm not sure how people can actually get anything from a push-up like that. o.o

 

I figured you meant a grownups gym when you said "the terminally ancient (as in even older them ME)". ;p

I have been to one grownups gym that also had girls doing "girl push-ups". >.>

[Kelkelen]

Ohhhh, girl pushups! Well, to be devil's advocate...

 

I have horribly poor upper body strength. (Also, my shoulder joints seem to have no cartilage or something, and pop and grind oddly if I move my arms in certain directions.) It would have been really awful if my Track & Field coach in high school had forced me to do real pushups, because my musculature simply couldn't (and still can't, despite weight training) take it. I do think that wall pushups are the better approach, though; less hard on the knees!

 

Nothing wrong with doing the easy form of pushups if that's the level your body is at. I feel like sometimes there's an underlying pressure for women to have to do everything to the same degree as men, and if they can't, they're inadequate; and that's not true. Now, women on average, on a whole, may have better flexibility, better pain endurance, a more stable center of gravity, and a host of other physical advantages, but they still usually have less upper body strength, and that's okay. Of course, there are exceptions.

 

I hate the phrase "man up." Also, anything that ends in "like a girl" as an insult. I was always disappointed that even Joss Whedon, self-proclaimed feminist and creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, still permitted the writers to put lines in her mouth about people running/throwing/screaming/fighting like a girl, blatantly being used as an insult. It's as if she's saying being male is superior/preferable, and just calling someone "like" a woman is a putdown; making her proud to distance herself from womankind, which is especially odd as the character of Buffy is perfectly happy to embrace the feminine norm in many ways.

 

I think skauble explains the situation about men hitting women very well. There's an underlying power imbalance that weights the whole situation. Also, there's still so much difficulty today in just drawing attention to the amazingly common phenomenon of wife-beating; I am NOT in any way trying to diminish the suffering that any male victim of abuse has gone through, but the societal, cultural idea that a husband somehow owns his wife and is permitted to physically abuse her if he sees fit is something that's deeply ingrained in our social consciousness (not to mention something that was a literal fact pretty much worldwide, until recently), and difficult to uproot. Saying that a man shouldn't hit a woman is a response to that real phenomenon, not to the hypothetical idea that in a perfect meeting of equals (of a man and woman of roughly even strength and size, who for some reason both *want* to fight, for example), a man should never hit a woman. Men are also encouraged to "pick on someone your own size" and not beat up on someone smaller or weaker than they are. Clearly, not beating people AT ALL is the ideal solution, here; but I'm all right with the concept of "you shouldn't physically attack someone who is at a disadvantage" -- whether that disadvantage is size, strength, lack of knowledge, or being raised with the social insistence that you must never hit someone. Which is not inherently BAD; yes, women need to be encouraged to stand up for themselves and protect themselves, but the flip side of the coin is that it's a *good* thing to be taught that, in general, you do not hit people, and it's not a viable way of solving problems.

[bubinator]

Now, women on average, on a whole, may have better flexibility, better pain endurance, a more stable center of gravity, and a host of other physical advantages, ...

I agree! Especially when we give birth...

I read somewhere that women quickly "forget" the birth pains more than other pains. In fact I can barely remember/feel the pain when I gave birth to my son. But I feel every moment when I once broke my arm.

[Obscure_Trash]

Nothing wrong with doing the easy form of pushups if that's the level your body is at.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what your body is at (however, no one in my school had anything like yours - they were certainly able to do something a little more taxing - they were just lazy, as they enjoyed admitting. And if they did indeed have actual reason to be doing alternate push-ups, they certainly weren't the ones bragging about not having to work and getting to take the easy way out). There is something wrong with calling them "girl push ups" though.

Edited March 21, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[The Evil Doer]

I agree! Especially when we give birth...

I read somewhere that women quickly "forget" the birth pains more than other pains. In fact I can barely remember/feel the pain when I gave birth to my son. But I feel every moment when I once broke my arm.

Stretching/tearing muscles isn't the same thing as breaking bones, has nothing to do with you being a female, there is a good chance that you will feel your "broken" arm till the rest of your life, usually when temperatures act up....

[gravity404]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what your body is at (however, no one in my school had anything like yours - they were certainly able to do something a little more taxing - they were just lazy, as they enjoyed admitting. And if they did indeed have actual reason to be doing alternate push-ups, they certainly weren't the ones bragging about not having to work and getting to take the easy way out). There is something wrong with calling them "girl push ups" though.

Agreed. I can do about 5-10 "real push ups" before my arms start shaking too much and I collapse. (In my defense, I am still in middle school...I just don't exercise as much as I should...) Then I start doing what I call *knee push ups* which is what everyone calls "girl push ups".

 

There are a lot of phrases (most have already been mentioned) that are actually pretty offensive but considered the social norm. Man up, you do ___ like a girl, etc. I think many women are offended by it, but don't say anything because it's kind of a "pick your battles" issue. Why get upset over something like that if there are bigger issues in the world? I often find myself thinking about how sexist someone was just being, then not saying anything because it's considered a social norm.

[-platinum-draco-]

There are a lot of phrases (most have already been mentioned) that are actually pretty offensive but considered the social norm. Man up, you do ___ like a girl, etc. I think many women are offended by it, but don't say anything because it's kind of a "pick your battles" issue. Why get upset over something like that if there are bigger issues in the world? I often find myself thinking about how sexist someone was just being, then not saying anything because it's considered a social norm.

Guy holds door for other guy (maybe this isn't actually that common, but holding doors is incredibly normal at my school.)

 

Guy says "Ladies first" and laughs at other guy.

 

Yeah :/. That's one that happens a lot.

[Nine]

Guy holds door for other guy (maybe this isn't actually that common, but holding doors is incredibly normal at my school.)

 

Guy says "Ladies first" and laughs at other guy.

 

Yeah :/. That's one that happens a lot.

I'm not sure what's wrong with that scenario? =P The man is clearly not a woman, so that was probably the point of the joke. I don't think there's any implied sexism there, unless you're purposely trying to see it.

 

Which is what I believe goes on more often than one would think. People look too far into grammar and the habitual phrasing of things for sexism and stereotyping that wasn't intended or implied.

...just to have a perfectly fit man walk right in without even looking at me or say 'Thank you.' It's quite rude, since the stereotype is supposed to be that a man holds open a door open for a woman. I find that these men are extremely sexist ones.

This confuses me as well. Are you implying that it's wrong for a woman to hold a door open for a man? It may have been slightly rude to not thank you, but the same should apply even if the guy was a woman, right? Perhaps I'm reading this wrong.

 

I find the "chivalry is dead" ideal rather ironic in a sense, since if I unconsciously reply to a woman with a "thanks man" it somehow becomes a sexist and offensive remark. If I open a door for a woman, I'm somehow implying that she is weak and needs to be coddled. Even if I offer to pay for dinner, I'm somehow furthering the stereotype that women cannot pay for things themselves or something equally ridiculous. Sexism still exists in the world, of course, but it's not ferociously spat out in everyday situations as one would think. I support women's rights being equal, but like I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not easy to stand alongside people who seem so eager to label you a sexist for referring to a mixed sex group as "you guys" =/

[Princess Artemis]

If you open a door for a woman as a power play, that's very likely sexist. If you open a door for a woman in exactly the same way you open doors for men, then it's not sexist (though it says nothing about how kindly or not you open doors!) The act itself suggests and implies nothing because opening doors for one another is not, in itself, a suggestive act. (Which stands apart from pejorative words which are, by their existence, pejorative, but people keep insisting they can use them innocently anyway).

 

Some women open doors as power plays too, though not nearly as often in my experience. I've got a lot more experience with women using paying for one another as a power trip.

 

If the act itself is innocent, it does matter why you do it. Way I figure it, anyone doing something like opening doors or offering to pay for meals who is doing so out of pure motives won't get bent out of shape if I refuse the offer. So, if you don't get upset if someone turns down your offers, you're good and the people around you know it.

[bubinator]

Stretching/tearing muscles isn't the same thing as breaking bones, has nothing to do with you being a female, there is a good chance that you will feel your "broken" arm till the rest of your life, usually when temperatures act up....

Sorry i expressed myself in a wrong way. What i meant was, i do not actually feel the pain in my arm but can remember how painful it was and remember all the other pains i had as well too, its stuck in my brain. As for giving birth i know that it is much more painful but don't remember the suffering. It is like cancelled in my memory of pain... I only agreed with Kelkelen in some cases, but i don't think that this concerns all women to be more pain resistant, we're not all the same!

 

My opinion to this topic: i don't jugde people by gender, we cant generalise cause we are all individuals.

Edited March 21, 2012 by bubinator

[Kelkelen]

This confuses me as well. Are you implying that it's wrong for a woman to hold a door open for a man? It may have been slightly rude to not thank you, but the same should apply even if the guy was a woman, right? Perhaps I'm reading this wrong.

I don't think it's that, I think it was the situation -- woman is holding door open for an elderly person to pass through, and someone else just strolls on through as well while the door is open, but doesn't even thank the person holding it.

 

That happens to me all the time, with both men and women, and it's really irritating -- I don't plan to stand there holding the door open all day, like when a whole stream of people is exiting the metro or something; I expect that sooner or later, someone will either take over the door-holding to pass it back the line, or at *least* someone will say thank you.

 

I think that's a case not of gender roles, but just plain rudeness!