Sexism

[Nine]

I tend to stay away from topics of sexism precisely because they usually end up with measuring how much worse one sex has it over the other. I don't find social concepts like sexism can be 'measured', which doesn't mean I discount the opinions of those who do, just don't agree with it. Like racism, I don't think any one "race" has it worse than another. That and some tend to come across as extremely passive-aggressive, which totally turns off the vibe of 'equality' and begins to sound more like 'a bone to pick with men'.

 

I don't agree with such prejudice or anything, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it's difficult to stand alongside women who talk about equality when-- ironically-- it feels like half the crowd inherently despises you =P

-shrug-

[Riverwillows]

I do hear what you are saying, Nine. It sometimes is hard to stay objective about subjects like this.

 

But, you gotta admit - the world in general IS much more favorable towards men. And if you feel sometimes that 'half the women" around you despise you, it is not YOU personally, it's merely what you represent as a male. As a female growing up in this men's world, it's hard NOT to be resentful at times.

 

That is not fair, I know. But neither is a lot of the excuses I see guys making to defend their actions towards women either.

 

Guess it's never gonna be fixed.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Riverwillows

[Sadako]

How did I know that would happen. Only on DC could a woman be attacked for being happy with her lot in life.

 

By the way, everyone is under duress to get a job, because everyone needs money to get by. It just so happens that some people enjoy their work, but at the end of they day they *have* to be there. You can't just not bother to work on days where you feel lazy.

With her lot in life--that phrase is the problem. Nobody ever sat me down and allotted me the responsibility to do all these things women are supposed to do, and if somebody had, I would have objected and volunteered for other duties. Yeah, some women can enjoy popping out babies and spackling oily paint on their faces just to go and sell CDs, but others enjoy other things, and to say that it is the lot in life of all people with this type of anatomy to do those things and never to object to them is pretty awful.

 

For the record I think the same is true for men and their alleged responsibilities. It's not your lot in life to get drafted and die in a war any more than it's my lot in life to give birth. If you want to join a military, go right ahead, by all means, but assigning people talents and duties based on their genitalia seems to make a lot of people unhappy, and suggesting that we as a human society move a little bit away from that is only logical.

 

I was going to say something else but this is not the time or place...

Edited February 6, 2012 by Sadako

[Kestra15]

With her lot in life--that phrase is the problem.

Someone's lot in life simply means what they have and what they're doing and does not come with sexist connotations. I was pointing out how someone was happy with what they did - even if it was a stereotype - and suddenly they get told to rise up and rebel.

 

Some people are happy to be stay-at-home mums. Some people are happy to be the bread-winner of the household. Some people are happy stacking shelves. If someone is happy with what they have, leave them be. Maybe they don't feel a want or need to 'do better' and are rather content with where they are in life.

[Sadako]

I don't think everyone uses that phrase in the same way. To me, one's 'lot in life' is the stuff that was handed you by destiny and cannot be changed. I will always be short, I will always have a wierd-looking face and one knee that clicks, and I will always have an unfortunate tendency to want to make myself understood--that is my 'lot in life', at least this time around. Giving birth was not handed to me by fate, it is not an inevitable part of my life, so given my own understanding of the phrase, it is not a part of my lot in life. If it is a part of the above poster's life, that's cool, but it is not a part of every woman's life.

[Princess Artemis]

Someone's lot in life simply means what they have and what they're doing and does not come with sexist connotations. I was pointing out how someone was happy with what they did - even if it was a stereotype - and suddenly they get told to rise up and rebel.

 

Some people are happy to be stay-at-home mums. Some people are happy to be the bread-winner of the household. Some people are happy stacking shelves. If someone is happy with what they have, leave them be. Maybe they don't feel a want or need to 'do better' and are rather content with where they are in life.

And that all is fantastically awesome for them. No one in this thread was attacked for that, nor were they encouraged to stop doing what what they enjoy for any reason.

 

What did happen was a discussion about how what they enjoy shouldn't be forced on people who don't enjoy it, along with some examples of how some were forced to do something some enjoy but others do not. No where did anyone say it was horribadwrongevil to enjoy something stereotypical. I must have absolutely missed it where someone was disparaged for being content with their 'job'.

 

Gotta go with Sadako though. "Lot in life" is something inevitably assigned, it does not mean "what one has and does" even though those meanings coincide. Lots are drawn to assign things. Lotto, lottery, but lot in life is not something one opts into, it's given by events outside one's control. Society seems to think men and women have certain lots and attempts very hard to enforce them, thus people unhappy with their lot in life are often taking umbrage at what society is forcing on them, not at the fact they were destined to be 4'5".

[The Evil Doer]

Why does it help them look professional?  Why does painting her face give the impression that a woman is knowledgeable about auto parts or CDs?  Because society is sexist and cannot stand the idea of looking at an unpainted, natural woman whereas unpainted, natural men are A-OK.

You have got to be kidding .

That has nothing to do with sexism.

 

The world we are living in goes by a simple rule of PERCEPTION IS REALITY, hence a woman who spends some time to put her make up on will indeed be perceived as more presentable and professional than someone who cant be bothered with that, in a same manner a guy wearing a t-shirt and jeans doesnt look as professional as someone in a suit does.

 

You can be a genius or a **, it doesnt really matter, the only thing that matters is how you are peceived by the world.

 

To dumb it down -

 

Girl doesnt want to bother with make up sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

Guy doesnt want to bother with shaving (natural look as you would call it) sends a message to the world - "I dont give a damn"

 

If you "dont give a damn" you dont look professional.

Those are the rules that apply to either of the genders, as simple as that.

Edited February 6, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Kelkelen]

But, see... that idea is still rooted in a society where a woman without makeup is seen as "not giving a damn" about her appearance, while a man without makeup is the norm.

 

And why does society expect women to wear makeup? To look more physically attractive to the men who dictate its norms. Men aren't expected to adhere to as narrow a definition of "beauty" as women are; yes, they are expected to groom themselves, to have good hygiene and clothes that fit and to keep their hair (including facial hair) trimmed and maintained. However, there is much, much less pressure to adhere to a particular body type or face type, and as for facial beauty, so long as they don't have zits, men's faces are generally considered okay as-is. In fact, not just okay, but perfectly ready for work in a professional environment. Meanwhile, women are expected to buy certain products and go to great lengths to disguise signs of aging, weariness, uneven coloration, and blemishes, as well as enhancing their appearance to fit a standard of beauty. Men aren't pressured to be movie-star handsome for all women, at all times. Men who are newscasters can usually count on a life-long career. Women are routinely fired once they are too old to be considered attractive to male viewers.

 

I am a teacher. I routinely go to work without makeup, often to the offices of international businesses. Do I "not give a damn?" Hardly. I shower, do my hair, wear neat, clean clothes that are a good fit and business appropriate, prepare my lessons well, and teach them effectively. I just happen to go to work with my natural face.

[Alpha1]

But, see... that idea is still rooted in a society where a woman without makeup is seen as "not giving a damn" about her appearance, while a man without makeup is the norm.

 

We have to shave our face.

 

And why does society expect women to wear makeup? To look more physically attractive to the men who dictate its norms. Men aren't expected to adhere to as narrow a definition of "beauty" as women are

 

While men generally may care more about attractiveness, it's not like women don't have their own set of stereotypical criteria: money, fame, social standing.

[The Evil Doer]

But, see... that idea is still rooted in a society where a woman without makeup is seen as "not giving a damn" about her appearance, while a man without makeup is the norm.

 

And why does society expect women to wear makeup? To look more physically attractive to the men who dictate its norms. Men aren't expected to adhere to as narrow a definition of "beauty" as women are; yes, they are expected to groom themselves, to have good hygiene and clothes that fit and to keep their hair (including facial hair) trimmed and maintained. However, there is much, much less pressure to adhere to a particular body type or face type, and as for facial beauty, so long as they don't have zits, men's faces are generally considered okay as-is. In fact, not just okay, but perfectly ready for work in a professional environment. Meanwhile, women are expected to buy certain products and go to great lengths to disguise signs of aging, weariness, uneven coloration, and blemishes, as well as enhancing their appearance to fit a standard of beauty. Men aren't pressured to be movie-star handsome for all women, at all times. Men who are newscasters can usually count on a life-long career. Women are routinely fired once they are too old to be considered attractive to male viewers.

 

I am a teacher. I routinely go to work without makeup, often to the offices of international businesses. Do I "not give a damn?" Hardly. I shower, do my hair, wear neat, clean clothes that are a good fit and business appropriate, prepare my lessons well, and teach them effectively. I just happen to go to work with my natural face.

If we have to shave to look presentable it's pretty much the same thing.

 

If you don't wear makeup but do shower, do your hair, wear neat, clean clothes that are a good fit and business appropriate, nobody wont say a damn thing to you about your makeup as long as your natural face doesnt look like you are in a hangover.

 

Newscaster women who got the job because of their looks will indeed be expendable once old, the same applies to male newscasters who were hired for their looks, you can see the same phenomena in the movie industry for both males and females, the only difference is that we have a longer "shelf life" hence we keep our jobs a bit more when its "appearances related", it has nothing to do with sexism but everything to do with the shallow world we live in where pretty people have it easier, it's nothing new and it has nothing to do with gender.

[diannethegeek]

We have to shave our face.

 

We have to shave or wax our armpits, legs, and in most cases also wax or pluck our eyebrows and upper lip (and, depending on the woman, may have to pluck the occasional stray chin hair).

[Riverwillows]

We have to shave or wax our armpits, legs, and in most cases also wax or pluck our eyebrows and upper lip (and, depending on the woman, may have to pluck the occasional stray chin hair).

Not to mention menstruate monthly, deal with the hormonal changes every month, grow children inside our selves and deal with THAT every increasing pain and discomfort, then we give birth with incredible pain and effort, then be expected to do the lion's share of raising, dealing with menopause for 10 years....

 

And all the while, try to look 'good' for personal and professional reasons because of the male world's expectations of us.

 

No, guys, just don't go there. You have issues too, yes, but NOTHING compared to what we go thru. Nope nope.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Riverwillows

[The Evil Doer]

We have to shave or wax our armpits, legs, and in most cases also wax or pluck our eyebrows and upper lip (and, depending on the woman, may have to pluck the occasional stray chin hair).

You do all that every morning ? Impressive

[Riverwillows]

You do all that every morning ? Impressive

Pretty much, yes. At LEAST 2-3 times a week, min.

[Sadako]

I can't believe you told them that some of us grow hair on our chins! They aren't supposed to know that until they get old and we get lazy!

 

Also, it didn't occur to me to say this before, but am I the only person who thinks that women with no makeup on actually look far more tidy and professional than ones with elaborately contoured shimmering rainbow vamp-eyes and bright glossy ruby-colored lips? I mean, I've lived in a lot of places, and in most of those places it's drag queens, ladies of negotiable virtue, and trophy wives who paint themselves elaborately. Given the choice between a woman who looks like that and a regular woman, I know which one I trust to do my taxes or take my blood pressure or ring up my purchases.

[WereJace]

I can't believe you told them that some of us grow hair on our chins! They aren't supposed to know that until they get old and we get lazy!

 

Also, it didn't occur to me to say this before, but am I the only person who thinks that women with no makeup on actually look far more tidy and professional than ones with elaborately contoured shimmering rainbow vamp-eyes and bright glossy ruby-colored lips? I mean, I've lived in a lot of places, and in most of those places it's drag queens, ladies of negotiable virtue, and trophy wives who paint themselves elaborately. Given the choice between a woman who looks like that and a regular woman, I know which one I trust to do my taxes or take my blood pressure or ring up my purchases.

I think it really depends on the individual. According to my girlfriend, I've been blessed with naturally nice skin and lips. I never wear makeup if I can help it. One of my friends who is quite lovely without makeup looks stunning when she 'puts her face on', and that can involve some very heavy, blaring colors. There's nothing inherently wrong with wearing or not wearing makeup, or even how much of it you put on your face. I've dealt with some very professional women in very unfortunate facepaint and some utter incompetents in bare skin.

 

I've always liked this comic from alexandra dal.

 

[Riverwillows]

I was always a tomboy growing up. I had 4 brothers, no sisters, and was second youngest.

 

My mom could never get me to wear dresses, I loved jeans and tee shirts, even as a teen. Still do. Have very few dresses, hate high heels, and wear sneakers most of the time.

 

I also was never into makeup. I don't wear it. Never did, even as a teen, excpet on two occasions: Senior pictures, and my wedding.

 

I've been told I am very pretty, especially when I smile. I have never been told I need to wear makeup. Never had trouble getting a job either.

 

I also have never had an acne, or blemish problem. I attribute that to never wearing makeup.

 

At 46, I don't even own any. Probably never will.

[Sadako]

I think it really depends on the individual.

Truer words were probably never spoken.

 

That comic cracks me up! I suppose I see a huge difference between swiping on some blueberry-flavored batman lipgloss, a little bit of black eyeliner, and a touch of powder to smooth out my complexion and spending an hour in front of a mirror applying three different foundations for a plastic look and then layering multiple colors on every part of my face with a dozen different tools to achieve artificial shading and fake highlights. I don't even know if my very rudimentary makeup routine 'counts' as wearing makeup since most of it is transparent. My bf-type-character actually wears eyeliner more often than I do, lol.

 

I know it's not ever an actual indication of talent or character, it's just that a woman in no makeup or very light 'natural' makeup looks to me more like someone who is trustworthy and respectable. The same goes for guys, as a rule--the more effort has been put into, for instance, trimming elaborate edges into a beard or fake-tanning, the more overdone and tasteless a guy looks to me.

[The Evil Doer]

Somebody makes a thread about sexism, which is cool coz obviously there's a lot of sexism going on around in the world yet somehow it turns into a makeup is sexist ??

 

Am I missing something here or are you guys seeing sexism in everything, coz when you try hard enough you can see whatever you want to see.

 

I played sports, I went to the gym, I studied so I would get paid, all those things us men do are so we can get women, girls are looking for that security, for that guy who can provide, not in a sense of girls wanna sit on their asses and have somebody work for them but in a sense of every girl wants her guy to be a protector and a provider, thats what we bring to the table.

 

Girls try to look pretty, they do it so they can get guys, thats how it works, its not sexist, its basic human nature.

 

Animals have the exact same rituals, and with all due respect but back when we were cavemen, there was no master plan being hatched by some sexist society, it was just nature and yes the men were hunters, girls rarely, if ever.

 

Most of you want to be equals and I fully support that and believe that you should get there, some of you believe or want to believe that you can kick our asses physically, I say, be all you can be, some of you are tomboys others are trying to reject their feminine side or whatever, as if being a gentle girl is a bad thing for some reason BUT all that doesnt change the basic fact which is that most of the girls are looking for that alpha male and most of the guys are looking for that alpha female, thats how survival of any specie works, thats our nature as humans.

 

Women getting paid less than us, thats sexism, women putting on a make up to look prettier, come on give me a break here.

[Sadako]

No, actually, the makeup thing is sort of a tangent. What was sexist was that some poor cute fresh-faced girl was pushed out of her job because her employers kept insisting that she paint herself in a tacky overdone way that she wasn't into.

 

Your comments are really disturbing to me and possibly to a lot of other healthy-minded young females people.

 

IF we were still living in caves, IF there were still only a few tens of thousands of humans living in a challenging environment, then you could probably get away with saying that all males want to be and should be alpha males, that all females are looking for a provider and a protector. BUT we now live in a world where, a little bit of pay disparity aside, anyone can and does make a comfortable living pursing a great many activities (assuming that you also live in a free first-world nation). Now, I can be whatever I want to be, including a hunter, if I work hard enough, and so can you. You don't have to go to the gym and get a high-paying job if you don't want to, because somewhere out there there is a girl (or, if you prefer, a boy) who wants you for what you are and what you want to be. If you want to write poetry about butterflies and wear eyeliner and mooch off your live-in girlfriend, you are absolutely free to pursue that. If I want to go to work with no makeup on and play wargames in my spare time I'm free to pursue that. That is what gender equality is all about.

 

Nature is cool and all, but when a whole lot of people are telling you that it's in their nature to do something that is contrary to what society expects, maybe that means that society's assumptions about nature aren't all true.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Sadako

[The Evil Doer]

Have I once said you shouldnt be anything you want to be ?

 

A whole lot of people as you would call them are maybe 5% of the population if not less, and its not an assumption, it's how all animals are wired, and us people are also, animals, just evolved ones.

 

Nerdy boy or a tomboy girl should live their lives as they choose to, they will probably find their happiness, however that doesnt change the fact that they will never be alphas and majority wants alphas, thats the truth whether you like it or not.

 

[Rosedamai]

all those things us men do are so we can get women, girls are looking for that security, for that guy who can provide, not in a sense of girls wanna sit on their asses and have somebody work for them but in a sense of every girl wants her guy to be a protector and a provider, thats what we bring to the table.

Look. I feel like I'm badmouthing my country here but:

 

One could argue that the period of time that a woman needs her husband to be a protector and provider most is during and right after their pregnancy. Is that correct? She can't really move, her body is in a very stressed state, and after birth, the baby steals most of her focus.

 

My country does not provide adequate paternity or maternity leave. Most of the times, unless you work in a really high-ranking place in a prestigious company (getting to that position is an epic struggle of itself, but that's another story) you do not get maternity leave. You get fired. It's a badly abused loophole in the law.

 

According to your logic, as females wanting providers and protectors, these women shouldn't complain. They've now got a full time protector & provider and do not no longer need to do the job themselves. They can relax and have more alone bonding time with their baby and tune in to their nurturing, maternal instincts.

 

However, contrary to said belief most of these women wants their job back. But most companies in my country won't even hire married women (not to mention women with kids) as there's the risk of them getting kids, and supposedly not focusing on the job at hand.

 

Well, whatever, women are supposed to sit back and relax as the male brings them food, right?

 

..But in reality it has resulted in less women looking for marriage, marrying at an older age, and affecting the declining birth rate that's very rapidly spiralling downhill.

 

So no, I wouldn't say that most women are looking for protector and providers.

 

I can go on about other cultural aspects where these traditional roles about men and women are being uprooted by women, especially around the holidays when we have traditional rituals and such, but it would be too long.

 

Edit: and if it's just 5% of the femal population, it won't really result in such a drastic change as most poor or rural men being unable to attract mates and having to go by mail-order brides, or the skyrocketing rates of unmarried women well past the normal marriage rate, would it?

 

Tl;dr: Reality=/=women wanting to settle down and rely on their mate. Society expects women to do so though, causing many problems.

Edited February 7, 2012 by ylangylang

[The Evil Doer]

Nowhere did I say anything remotly close to what you are saying.

 

1. I said there is sexism and that I believe that there should be none.

 

2. Women not getting rights is sexism, no way in hell should they sit back and not complain.

 

3. Protector and Provider is what women are looking for as in a basic need, girl needs to feel safe with her man, whether it is financially safe or physically safe (you are walking down the street with your boyfriend and you get attacked, every woman expects or at least hopes that her boyfriend will protect her), when your boyfriend/husband holds you in his arms you should feel safe, thats the basic need every woman is looking for, psychology 1 on 1, you might be aware of it, it might be on a subconscious level but it is what it is.

 

4. System is broken and not only in your country whichever coutry that may be, however that as I said had nothing to do with what I said.

 

 

Edit -

Edit: and if it's just 5% of the femal population, it won't really result in such a drastic change as most poor or rural men being unable to attract mates and having to go by mail-order brides, or the skyrocketing rates of unmarried women well past the normal marriage rate, would it?

 

When I said 5%, I was referring to the fact that 5% or less of the population wouldnt be interested in the alphas hence would go against their "nature", so either you didnt understand me or its also possible that I simply didnt understand you, coz I didnt really get your edited part above

Edited February 7, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Rosedamai]

Protector and Provider is what women are looking for as in a basic need, girl needs to feel safe with her man, whether it is financially safe or physically safe (you are walking down the street with your boyfriend and you get attacked, every woman expects or at least hopes that her boyfriend will protect her), when your boyfriend/husband holds you in his arms you should feel safe, thats the basic need every woman is looking for, psychology 1 on 1, you might be aware of it, it might be on a subconscious level but it is what it is.

And I'm saying no it's not, as these women are basically given the opportunity to fully embrace their husband as caregiver as a pregnant/breastfeeding women without a job rather than as economical equals and they're not being happy with it.

 

Edit: And I've dated guys before that were physically weaker than I was(guy couldn't give me a piggyback ride; I could). I still had a long and fulfilling relationship. Does that make me weird? *Derp* I just have this thing for nerdy, sweet guys..

 

Edit again: What I was trying to say was that if only 5% of the population go against the alpha type, it wouldn't really lead to drastic changes in society which are happening around me. Btw, if the need to seek alpha mates are that strong so that 95% of the society is swayed by it, how come people often..uh...settle for less but are perfectly happy with it?

Edited February 7, 2012 by ylangylang

[The Evil Doer]

And I'm saying no it's not, as these women are basically given the opportunity to fully embrace their husband as caregiver as a pregnant/breastfeeding women without a job rather than as economical equals and they're not being happy with it.

Will those women not expect their husbands to protect them from danger (physical danger for example) ?

 

Will those women (career women) be attracted to guys who cant provide financially, guys who cant hold a job, with no degrees etc or will they look for someone who is at least on their level (career wise) ??

 

Edit : Quoting my earlier post -

 

.....girls are looking for that security, for that guy who can provide, not in a sense of girls wanna sit on their asses and have somebody work for them but in a sense of every girl wants her guy to be a protector and a provider, thats what we bring to the table.

 

Clearer ?

Edited February 7, 2012 by The Evil Doer