Cave Feedback

[Princess Artemis]

I like your idea, Fengari, but I feel like if the artist isn't completely happy with a sprite, they won't suggest that TJ use it in the site in the first place.

Speaking as an artist, sometimes things just need to be seen by other people and have a completely fresh eye turned on them before I can see what is wrong with them. That doesn't mean I might not have been happy with something, just that if I'm close to it, I am blind to a certain extent.

 

That's just how it is. That doesn't mean that all of the DC forums are a good source of constructive crit, though. There's some to be had, but it's hard to find it.

[Imbecamiel]

I like your idea, Fengari, but I feel like if the artist isn't completely happy with a sprite, they won't suggest that TJ use it in the site in the first place.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

I know with some concepts I've worked on, I've gotten to the end and still felt there was something vaguely off, or which could be improved... But I keep asking for opinions, no one's giving me anything, either positive ("yep, everything's checking out to me") or negative ("this could still be fixed," or "I don't quite like that"...). And in the end, I finally decide that I'm tired of working on it without knowing whether I'm making anything better or worse (or whether there are things that still stick out to people), and decide to call it done.

 

(Which, in some cases, I think may feed artist frustration - wondering where all these people with crits were when things were still in progress and they were all but begging for constructive criticism. Yeah, some dragons are done in secret, and yes, everyone can't keep up with all the threads in the requests section, but....)

 

Edit: What Princess Artemis said is very true as well. :3

Edited November 4, 2011 by Imbecamiel

[Fengari]

Maybe, although in the Happy Halloween thread I got the feeling that Nakase was seriously considering trying to follow up on the critique given there (I could have interpreted that wrong, though...)

 

Anyway, if both the artist and TJ are happy with the sprite (which they presumably were when they decided to release it) and don't think it needs changing, a critiquing thread is pointless. Which is why I still think the initiative should come from them.

 

Sometimes an artist needs the feedback to be able to see their own work a bit more objectively, which is also why I think it is not good to restrict people from being honest, as long as they're not insulting.

 

Not so important example: I used to have an account on a photography site where I showcased what I felt were my best pictures. It was the kind of community where it was 'not done' to make a negative comment. People said they liked it or they said nothing at all. Because I received nothing but positive comments I felt really good about my work.

Then I discovered another site which is (I know now) known for its honest, sometimes even harsh comments. The reception my first few pics (that I had gotten such great comments on before) got there, was shocking and a bit painful, but I sucked it up and asked people pointers about how to do better, and I've learned so much since then. Now my mum always wonders how I'm still enjoying photography even though I've become my own worst critic...

 

EDIT: I see that, while I was typing this, it's become clear that I'm not alone in this opinion.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Fengari

[Nine]

Haven't caught up on the last few posts, sorry if it's been said / made redundant / whatever.

 

I'd absolutely love to be able to read more crit and feedback on sprites, as well as give it. I know from my own experiences that simply reading what people are saying helps me improve my own art, even if the sprite is not mine. I find the different input of several dozen people is invaluable in deciding the difference in what is a stylistic feature, or something that really should be fixed. Even if the artist themselves doesn't want to hear it, other people may.

 

It's always bothered me that crit and feedback is so highly discouraged here for 'finished' designs, when I find it more valuable than unconditional praise. I'd love if discussions about sprites and designs could continue to some extent without fear of deletion or warning. Those who take advantage of the opportunity to flame and be cruel would still be warned, of course.

 

Didn't realize there was a discussion going on in the Halloween thread. Hm, I'll have to take a look if the posts are still there =o

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd have thought it was possible to post a completed dragon more - prominently - so as to get CONSTRUCTIVE criticism (any such thread would need VERY careful modding...) and the spriter could change it if they wished - but after it is out there on people's scrolls - that seems a bit OTT - it could drag on for years.

 

"I like the new paws, but now the wings need moving."

"That's better - but now his belly is too thin..."

 

And on and on and ....

[olympe]

What if an art feedback thread for released dragons was on moderated posting only?

 

Also, once the current in-cave sprites are done with, I'd appreciate such a thread for new releases only.

[Fuzzbucket]

What if an art feedback thread for released dragons was on moderated posting only?

 

Also, once the current in-cave sprites are done with, I'd appreciate such a thread for new releases only.

IF we were to have one, yes, that would be good.

[ParticleSoup]

(...) but after it is out there on people's scrolls - that seems a bit OTT - it could drag on for years.

 

"I like the new paws, but now the wings need moving."

"That's better - but now his belly is too thin..."

 

And on and on and ....

this seems like quite a bit of an over-exaggeration, as even sprites in progress still get their own kind of critique in that manner, BUT it doesn't continue on for as long as you might think; only about as long as it takes for the artists to make any necessary changes. could take under a day, could take weeks.

when all the anatomy/shading/etc. flaws with a sprite have been fixed, there is nothing left to do with it, and anything else that may come up will have more to do with individual personal tastes than fixing the sprite. at that point, the sprite can be considered finished and the thread can be closed(providing specific newly released sprites have individual critiquing threads)

Edited November 5, 2011 by ParticleSoup

[Fuzzbucket]

We hope.... Just if this were allowed on dragons already in the cave any new user who spotted something THEY didn't like...

 

Of course in theory this would only take a short time, but in practice - well, look at the complaints there are still about dragons which have been around for ages ! Not to mention That Case We Do Not Mention....

[ParticleSoup]

if this were done, i think it should apply only to new releases which come after implementation of the thread, at the artists' whims

 

edit: lol, used the wrong word.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ParticleSoup

[Nine]

Hey, I have some feedback.

 

It'd be great if description rejects linked to whatever mod did the rejecting or a link to PM them, in case there are any questions or concerns about the decision. Right now it's completely blind, with no opportunity to discuss with the mod what exactly the concerns are. The limited space to write comments means most rejects are nondescript and nonspecific too, so this might help with confusion.

 

Apparently there are discussions between mods about things, but that certainly appears one-sided if the writer of the description has no opportunity to explain, elaborate, or clear up misunderstandings.

[Obscure_Trash]

Sometimes some mods do leave their names. However, the whole description process is rather anonymous. I think if you have a question you can bring the description to any mod if you are on the forum. If we don't quite now, we can ask around for the mod that does know.

 

In your case, I'm not sure what else we can explain. Illegal drug references are being considered inappropriate for the site. :3

[Nine]

That's the thing, I'm not referencing drugs. My dragons don't do drugs, they don't sell them, they're not on drugs. I have no second agenda to corrupt the minds of innocent, vulnerable children by making my dragons tweakers. I so wish this discussion had been brought to me sooner, because there are no excuses for their descriptions only explanations.

 

They're named after chemical compounds, yes, but that is where the reference ends. Is it because PCP is an angry dragon that it raises suspicion? If she were a mellow, chill dragon would the description be okay? Does my mellow, chill dragon named LSD raise suspicions? If SHE were the angry one, would that be okay?

 

As horribly, excruciatingly frustrating as it is, I would be willing to completely overhaul their personalities even if they are something I have had thought out for a very long time. I want to know if I should even bother with this, or will someone find some other reason to believe that I'm referencing drugs, even if I'm not? The names themselves are appropriate-- LSD means "Little Sleepy Dragon", PCP means "Pretty Crazy Purple", THC is "The Happy Canopy". Admittedly, the first and last probably should have had their personalities switched (that was my mistake), but even then... would they be rejected based solely on their names and the judgement that I am somehow referencing drugs?

 

I've had some positive comments on their descriptions pointing out nothing wrong with them. This may sound blunt and I sure hope I will not be warned for this, but is it possible... that the mods are the ones who are interfering the drug references because of bias? That maybe those who think the worst come to see the worst?

Edited November 8, 2011 by Nine

[~!~]

I've had some positive comments on their descriptions pointing out nothing wrong with them. This may sound blunt and I sure hope I will not be warned for this, but is it possible... that the mods are the ones who are interfering the drug references because of bias? That maybe those who think the worst come to see the worst?

Well, I brought up a similar issue with one of the forum's default avatars (PM me for details, and please nobody post saying "yeah I know which one you're talking about" because I don't want people who don't see it to suddenly be unable to unsee it) and TJ told me that was my problem, not the site's.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ~!~

[HeatherMarie]

I'm not a mod and I have nothing to do with this, but I'd like to say my 2cents anyways.

 

DragonCave is a children's game. Many adults play it, but so do *many* children. I would expect a dragon called "Call Girl Nancy" with the description that she's very popular with male dragons to be inappropriate for a children's game. Likewise, I'd expect a dragon with a drug name with a description that describes the type of symptoms commonly associated with that drug to be inappropriate.

 

Is it *possible* to use those references without meaning drugs at all? Sure. But most people above the age of 10 will see drug references, and I don't think that's appropriate for a kid's game.

 

That's just my opinion though.

[Nine]

Unfortunately, I do not believe telling those who believe I am referencing drugs that it's "their problem" will work x( Mods are dependable for their unbiased rationale, so if I'm the only one who thinks that they are incorrect where does that leave me?

 

Should I be punished because people's minds think the absolute worst?

Snaps on describing symptoms; recreational drugs have an absolute monstrous list of possible symptoms that can relate to each and everyone's personality. They affect people's brains so differently, so radically dependent on amount, environment, personality, that I could say that taking PCP makes you completely mellow, depressed, and unhappy and I would probably be right.

 

It irks me because if you were to completely ignore the names of the dragons, I guarantee you drugs would be the last thing to cross anyone's mind. Their names are creating a predisposition for bias, one that is not intended, wanted, or desired. I feel absolutely hopeless and disrespected that there probably is nothing I can do to prevent people from thinking I'm referencing drugs, and that many of my dragons will have to go without descriptions because people will think the absolute worst. Heck, I'm worried that by even attempting to argue my point, I'm teetering on the edge of getting banned / unable to write descriptions / precious dragons' names erased.

 

It's lose-lose.

 

Edit2:

 

Even if I will never convince anyone regarding this issue, even if I am losing a battle that should never have been fought, I do believe in one thing: There should be more mods-- even just description mods-- to increase the variety of opinions, thoughts, and perceptions. Maybe there are just too few mods reviewing descriptions right now that it's hard to determine what the more "correct" opinion is, and very few people to bounce interpretations off of. Maybe that's more of a "forum feedback" thing, I don't know.

 

Please do not delete my post, I have made a related suggestion above to keep this on topic.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Nine

[Keriel]

humm... my only issue is the cave blockers still. but that's just part of the game.

 

i have no issues with the breeding.

i mean if it's rare, it has to be rare for a reason, so the way you'd handle it is lower breeding success. it's logical. frustrating sometimes but logical. i know lots of people who hate the lack of success with vampires. what i say is that you need to weigh up the pro and con. if you want to bite you take the risk and the consequences, same as you would in life. this is also why i don't use earthquake, because in my personal opinion it isn't worth the risk, but to others it is.

 

so over all i have no real complaints. i may whinge and whine in frustration when i do something and it fails. but in the end i don't want the site to change

[Obscure_Trash]

It irks me because if you were to completely ignore the names of the dragons, I guarantee you drugs would be the last thing to cross anyone's mind.

 

You're right. Yet you named them obvious drug references, so that bleeds into the description, whether that was the intention or not. If the name is "Little Sleepy Dragon" then why include the drug reference?

 

It's like when people want to name dragons dirty innuendos because it's not technically inappropriate, but we can clearly see their intent when doing so, and so the names are inappropriate and not allowed.

 

Same thing with the descriptions. ^^

[HeatherMarie]

It irks me because if you were to completely ignore the names of the dragons, I guarantee you drugs would be the last thing to cross anyone's mind. Their names are creating a predisposition for bias, one that is not intended, wanted, or desired.

So.... why not just change the names?

 

It does seem you are fighting a losing battle. Are Mods *always* right? Of course not. But drug-names combined with drug-symptom descriptions apparently equals a reject. If you are really that upset about it, just change the name or change the description. Maybe we all need to accept that there will be some decisions we don't agree with, but we need to play by the rules regardless of how we feel about it.

[Nine]

You're right. Yet you named them obvious drug references, so that bleeds into the description, whether that was the intention or not. If the name is "Little Sleepy Dragon" then why include the drug reference?

Little Sleepy Dragon was the basis I used for her personality; she's lazy and does nothing but sleep and eat and get into arguments. Her name was based off of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide, yes. I used the acronym to create the personality. There's no intentional drug reference in her description. I did not write descriptions for them just so see "how far I could go" like sexual innuendos. I'm not trying to be devious, or clever, or inappropriate for the sake of screwing with mods.

 

I can also admit if you try hard enough, you can come to the conclusion that I am somehow referencing drugs. I'm sure you could with all my descriptions (somehow). However, LSD's description was 3 lines long, all referencing her being lazy, sleepy, and forgetful. If those happen to be obscure symptoms of LSD-induced trip as well, then that's unintentional and really annoying.

 

I really enjoy their names so I'd be more willing to overhaul their descriptions. But what's the point, if it will somehow be tied to drugs no matter what generic description I type? As I said, I could make PCP mellow and happy and she would still be thought a reference to drugs! That's how diverse symptoms are, and because her name is indeed a reference to the chemical there's no avoiding the stigma that the description must be too!

 

My claims about my intentions don't mean much, I know. This is the internet after all, and I have an e-rap sheet. My mistake for not realizing that folks here naturally think the worst of others. I'll better prepare myself for the future to avoid further disappointment.

[stogucheme]

My claims about my intentions don't mean much, I know. This is the internet after all, and I have an e-rap sheet. My mistake for not realizing that folks here naturally think the worst of others. I'll better prepare myself for the future to avoid further disappointment.

Um...didn't you still name them after drugs? I think that that's the heart of the problem...

[HeatherMarie]

My mistake for not realizing that folks here naturally think the worst of others.

That's a fairly broad generalization don't you think? And fairly narrow-minded to generalize that way when, obviously, you haven't spoken to the majority of "folks here" about this topic.

 

What do you expect someone to think when you name a dragon *after a drug*, as you just admitted to doing, and then use the description to describe drug-symptoms? I don't think that's "thinking the worst", and I think it' completely illogical for you to think that people *won't* see the connection.

[Nine]

If there was ever an issue about their names specifically, it was never brought to my intention.

 

I've been discussing their descriptions which were not intended to have any reference to the things they were named after. This apparently is not how others see it. That's the issue.

 

and then use the description to describe drug-symptoms? I don't think that's "thinking the worst", and I think it' completely illogical for you to think that people *won't* see the connection.

 

Because that's not what I was doing. I tried to explain that, I was not intentionally describing drug symptoms. Moreso, it's illogical for you to assume I was referencing drugs when you have not read the description. You base it off of what myself and the mods have said, don't go pointing the illogical fallacy at me when you cannot base it on your own judgements.

 

And fairly narrow-minded to generalize that way when, obviously, you haven't spoken to the majority of "folks here" about this topic.

 

You're right. But writing "My mistake for not realizing that the folks whose opinions matter on the subject naturally think the worst of the matter at hand" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Nine

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm sorry, but we just can't ignore the connection when the dragon is outright named after a drug. Sorry that this may be disappointing to some but it's the conclusion we've come to for now. ^^

[Nine]

I'm sorry, but we just can't ignore the connection when the dragon is outright named after a drug. Sorry that this may be disappointing to some but it's the conclusion we've come to for now. ^^

Yeah, I got it. I named them after the drugs, and it's hard for people to look past what may be interpreted as drug references in the description. Even if it's not what I intended and I refute this, perception is difficult to change based on words alone.

 

I'm on the same page. I'll drop it.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Nine