Gender and Gender Identity

[Shienvien]

yeah oops didn't mean to imply that liking "girly stuff" = transgirl, just that in some instances that stuff plays a huge part, the trans people I know have told me that they knew from a rather young age that they were "different" because they never identified with their assigned gender's toys, clothes, or roles, and always felt as though they belonged with the other gender. And that doesn't mean that's how all trans people felt.

Hi. I dislike to detest most "girly" stuff and I am heterosexual female woman. I also know multiplectransmen and male men who like skirts/corsets/makeup/etc.

 

Re: gender identity.

You can with overwhelming accuraccy tell whetjer a person is cis/trans from brain scans. No other info provided.

[AppleMango]

Okay, so I know it hasn't been talked about in a while, and I'm sorry if I am upsetting anyone by bringing it up again, but basically, I have a good example of why I think gender and sex are different things.

 

I was talking with one of my friends in class and we somehow got on the topic of Caitlyn Jenner.

She said that she had been thinking about it and she still thought of him as a man, saying "he still has a penis, it's just inside out."

We talked about it for a bit, and I explained to her to think about it like sex is your genitals and gender is your brain, and it made her understand.

 

While I can understand the want for them to mean the same thing, I think that at least at this point in time it may be necessary to help people understand trans people.

[Shienvien]

If gender and sex were the same thing, being trans wouldn't exist. I know at least one quite strongly dysporic trans person who is vehemently opposed to the sex==gender idea, since it usually pretty much amounts to "If you can just convince yourself that you're whatever sex matches your gender, your frustration with your body being wrong will go away! You just have to love to learn to love yourself as you are!" ...No. His dysphoria / feeling wrong in the body wouldn't just magically go away. It's a thing because his body and brain don't match, period. It's like telling a person with actual chemical depression that if they just think happy thoughts, their depression will go away. It ... is counterproductive at best, even when we speak very specifically of the trans part of the community.

 

Does gender generally matter more than sex on personal level, though? Yes.

[GoldeenTrix]

I'm actually kinda confused right now. I was born female, I identify as a female, I am proud to be female, and I get offended if people call me a male.

 

And yet, I find myself wishing that I was a male sometimes. I don't know why. I've asked myself countless times what makes being a male more appealing to me and I can never properly answer that question.

 

The only thing that I can think of is that maybe I envy the friendships that the boys in my class have. Constant pranking, loud laughing, and it always looks like they've got eachothers back. The girls, well, I find it extremely tiring to try and maintain a stable friendship with them and they cry and get upset far too easily. I am much more relaxed around male friends.

[Obscure_Trash]

If gender and sex were the same thing, being trans wouldn't exist.

Being trans exists because we aggressively and unnecessarily gender infants. But that doesn't make it right that sex =/= gender.

 

The idea that sex and gender are the same thing has nothing at all to do with trying to downplay dysphoria (which not only trans people can have) or unhappiness with ones anatomy. It is to combat transphobic ideals such as 'you can't be trans without dysphoria' and 'trans people can't be happy with their body' and 'trans people are born in the wrong body' and etc etc etc.

 

In an ideal world, we'd be gender neutral with kids and at some point when kids decided, they could certain pronouns or hormone theraphy and reassignment surgery would hopefully be more advanced by then, so that reassigning anatomy wouldn't just be for looks.

[AppleMango]

In an ideal world, we'd be gender neutral with kids and at some point when kids decided, they could certain pronouns or hormone theraphy and reassignment surgery would hopefully be more advanced by then, so that reassigning anatomy wouldn't just be for looks.

I study childcare, and we have just recently gotten back form placement, and one of the girls in my class said that when they were writing observations on the children, they weren't allowed to use words like "his" and "her" in the observations, they have to find different ways to say it.

(Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but it didn't seem too off-topic and I thought you would like to know.)

[Indigo_Dragon]

I'm an AFAB transman who may be at heart trigender (man, woman, third gender/hermaphrodite) but I lean towards the man enough to identify as such. I'm an effeminate man all the same and don't switch from the three inner genders - rather I feel a combination of all three at once.

 

Also note when I say hermaphrodite, I mean that I would be comfortable in a hermaphrodite body, one that has both sets of genitals that are fully formed and relatively independent of each other [no blending or fusion going on]. Not anything like the intersex people since they are not hermaphrodites in that sense. Not wanting to step on anyone's toes here. ;;

 

I like the he/him/his pronouns though. :3 And if I don't know someone else's pronouns I use they/them/their. :3 After all it's been used as singular since Shakespeare's times! Not always as plural.

[Umbee]

I'm currently trying to figure out my gender. I was assigned female, and for the most part am okay identifying and presenting as female, but then there are times when I feel slight discomfort about my anatomy? Like I'd be so much happier if I just got rid of these dang parts. I used to figure the discomfort just came from me being ace and not wanting people to see me in a sexual light, but recently one of my friends suggested it might be mild dysphoria. And I don't necessarily feel that I'd be opposed to people using they/them pronouns for me.

 

So... part of me thinks I might be more comfortable identifying as demigirl, and then another part of me thinks I'm just cis and confused.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Umbee

[Kestra15]

I study childcare, and we have just recently gotten back form placement, and one of the girls in my class said that when they were writing observations on the children, they weren't allowed to use words like "his" and "her" in the observations, they have to find different ways to say it.

(Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but it didn't seem too off-topic and I thought you would like to know.)

...? Really?

[Gsea]

I'm currently trying to figure out my gender. I was assigned female, and for the most part am okay identifying and presenting as female, but then there are times when I feel slight discomfort about my anatomy? Like I'd be so much happier if I just got rid of these dang parts. I used to figure the discomfort just came from me being ace and not wanting people to see me in a sexual light, but recently one of my friends suggested it might be mild dysphoria. And I don't necessarily feel that I'd be opposed to people using they/them pronouns for me.

 

So... part of me thinks I might be more comfortable identifying as demigirl, and then another part of me thinks I'm just cis and confused.

I relate to this! But in my case, I still identify as cis and do believe that's what I am. I was never comfortable with being feminine. When I was younger I hated wearing skirts and dresses because I felt too exposed, and skirts/dresses are still way out of my comfort zone. When I got my first bra I was severely uncomfortable because it meant that I finally had to acknowledge that I had female parts. Since then I've come to identify as grey-ace and am very uncomfortable with the idea of people sexualizing me or even being attracted to be physically. So while I still identify as a cis-female and am okay with subscribing to some of the gender roles society has placed on my gender - wearing makeup, listening to girly music, liking girly things, generally identifying as a girl - I have never been very comfortably in a physically female body. But I still think I'm a girl. Just not a girly girl. And being grey-ace is probably why I, personally, don't like showing a lot of skin or doing anything to draw attention to my female anatomical characteristics.

[JavaTigress]

I'm currently trying to figure out my gender. I was assigned female, and for the most part am okay identifying and presenting as female, but then there are times when I feel slight discomfort about my anatomy? Like I'd be so much happier if I just got rid of these dang parts. I used to figure the discomfort just came from me being ace and not wanting people to see me in a sexual light, but recently one of my friends suggested it might be mild dysphoria. And I don't necessarily feel that I'd be opposed to people using they/them pronouns for me.

 

So... part of me thinks I might be more comfortable identifying as demigirl, and then another part of me thinks I'm just cis and confused.

Actually,I also can SORT of relate to what you are expressing,tbh.

 

THOUGH in MY case, as you said, I always SORT of assumed that any DISCOMFORT I had with my lady-parts was PURELY due to the sexual objectification of said parts, (breasts, especially)rather than flat out dysphoria.(I also would identify myself as some form of Ace, I think.) MOST of the time, I am reasonably at home in my body ( Enough so that I wouldn't bother to have the parts I feel call unwanted attention to me REMOVED, or anything) and feel no 'wrongness about being referred to as 'she' and female... though I wouldn't be OFFENDED if someone used They/them.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Silverswift

[Shienvien]

I wish society did away with "girly things" = woman (and opposite) connotations entirely. Those things are completely and fully unrelated. I cannot even think of how many people over time have been harassed by liking other things, or given up something they like because it's not what their sex/gender arbitrarily "shouldn't" do or like.

[Lady Artemis]

I identify as genderfluid between male/female/agender.

[JavaTigress]

Question!

 

IF I am unsure of someone's gender identity, is it acceptable to simply AVOID using pronouns if possible, seeing as asking might be rather awkward or seen as offensive?

[pudding]

Using They/them is also appropriate as the singular 'They' has existed for a significant amount of time. I usually default to that.

[Obscure_Trash]

You could also start off by saying your pronouns and then asking what pronouns they prefer. Would make it less awkward. Normalize asking for pronouns! That's awesome. =3

[JavaTigress]

You could also start off by saying your pronouns and then asking what pronouns they prefer. Would make it less awkward. Normalize asking for pronouns! That's awesome. =3

Interesting idea.

 

And using a singluar 'they/them' as pudding suggested might work too, IFyou were referring to said individual to someone else.

[Omega Entity]

You could also start off by saying your pronouns and then asking what pronouns they prefer. Would make it less awkward. Normalize asking for pronouns! That's awesome. =3

Except that people can get super offended if you ask what pronouns they want to use.

 

"Do I look like a man/woman to you?" often ends up the response, and then you end up with anger on their part and embarrassment on your own.

 

They/them is probably the safest route to go, if you're looking for the pronouns that would be least likely to cause offense.

[Obscure_Trash]

Except that people can get super offended if you ask what pronouns they want to use.

 

"Do I look like a man/woman to you?" often ends up the response, and then you end up with anger on their part and embarrassment on your own.

 

They/them is probably the safest route to go, if you're looking for the pronouns that would be least likely to cause offense.

So apologize and move on. It isn't offensive and I am personally wary of those who find it so. I would 10000000x prefer to be asked than misgendered (you know what they say about assuming ;p ). It'd be nice if we got into the habit of doing that when we introduced ourselves, cis and nonbinary alike.

[Omega Entity]

It isn't offensive to -you-. That doesn't delegitimize other people's feelings on the matter, unless you're suggesting that only non-cis people can be harmed by and overtly offended by misgendering but cis people aren't allowed - people who make up the vast majority of the population. If so, that's a horrible double-standard, and essentially stating that one group of people is more entitled to sensitivity and respect than another.

 

I'd rather error on the side of caution than put my foot in my mouth, especially when working with the general public as I do.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Omega Entity

[Obscure_Trash]

There is a differnce, even in tone and body language, when someone asks your pronouns because they cannot stand that thought that someone doesn't fit into the gender binary and isn't clearly either male or female and someone asking because they genuinely want to be polite and respectful to your identity.

 

So, yes, of course if someone asks with with an offensive meaning in mind, that is going to be offensive.

 

But making sure to use the correct pronouns for someone in and of itself is not offensive. Unless the person is threatened by not upholding the strict and aggressive gender binary.

 

If you only ever asked trans people, that would be offensive. If you make a habit of asking more people consistantly, that's just common courtesy.

[Omega Entity]

Except that the goto response for some trans people (at least here) is that no matter what, a person misgendering them is automatically doing so maliciously - which I argue that many are just not accustomed to or familiar with the trans community in general. There is no 'benefit of the doubt' for some people.

 

If someone only expects the worst of people, then that's all they're ever going to see/experience. And this isn't from me, but something I learned from my therapist.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Omega Entity

[St. Jimmy]

Except that the goto response for some trans people (at least here) is that no matter what, a person misgendering them is automatically doing so maliciously - which I argue that many are just not accustomed to or familiar with the trans community in general. There is no 'benefit of the doubt' for some people.

But asking for pronouns isn't misgendering?? I see it as the opposite - you're asking so you can avoid misgendering them.

 

I'm with Sock & would definitely prefer someone asking me my pronouns than assuming the wrong ones. I'd even prefer it over someone not asking for fear of offending me. It should be a normal part of introductions, whether you're cis or trans.

[Omega Entity]

So alienating cis people is just fine. Got it.

 

Seriously, though. If there's an acceptable gender-neutral set of pronouns to use (they/them), then those are the safest thing to use, imo. I know very few people who'd take issue with those.

[Indigo_Dragon]

I agree with Sock and Jimmy. However I'm not confident enough to ask someone their preferred pronouns just yet. I usually use "they" when talking about someone else really, in the singular sense. I do ask my friends what pronouns they'd prefer me to use, so I make sure to stick by them.