Gender and Gender Identity

[Txngo]

Here's the definition incase you guys still don't understand

 

 

No, intersex is not a sex

 

[Obscure_Trash]

First of all, there are multiple definitions to words.

 

sex

[seks]

noun

 

1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

2. the sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.

3. the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct.

4. coitus.

5. genitalia.

 

Second of all, dictionaries are defined by popular use. They do update a change - which means that at any given time, definitions are outdated. And outdated as I find this entry, you will notice the two definitions here that do not mention two and only two sexes/set of sexual characteristics.

 

Thirdly, dictionaries are the very most basic source of information. You want to understand a concept and not just the most common definition of word? You do more research than just looking in the dictionary.

 

I suggest going back to any of the links you've already been provided on intersex indeed being a sex.

 

If you read those and still disagree, what exactly would you call being intersex intersex?

[Stromboli]

I didn't say gender did I

 

Sex is biological

 

Your sex refers to what you were physically born as

 

Even if you say there are more than 2 genders (Which I don't necessarily disagree with) there are still only 2 sexes

I was talking specifically about your lines "Even if you try to argue that there are more than 2 genders (which there isn't but I've heard it many times)," which is why I quoted that line specifically even though the rest of your post was about sex. Sock had already addressed the issue of multiple sexes.

 

When did you go from saying there are only two genders in every species and you can argue there are more than two genders (but there aren't) to "Even if you say there are more than 2 genders (Which I don't necessarily disagree with)"? I'm confused what you're trying to say.

 

 

And like I said, Sock already had addressed the fact that there are more than two ways in which sex can present in humans, if you've bothered to read the sources.

If you go by genitals, there's gray area.

If you go by karyotype, there's a mixed bag depending on where you take your sample. If the stats are right, it's nearly as likely for you to have a kid with an XXY karyotpye as it is to have triplets.

[Infinis]

Here's the definition incase you guys still don't understand

 

 

No, intersex is not a sex

If we're arguing semantics or whatever this is, the highlighted definition actually hurts your case because it specifies that male and female are main categories. In doing so, it implies that there are other categories aside from male and female into which sexes can be placed.

 

Additionally, even if we're speaking from a strictly biological standpoint, there is a bare minimum of three sexes: male, female, and intersex. Intersex is not something that can just be shunted aside; it is a biological reality. Intersex traits can display physically (both internal and external), mentally, and genetically. It is entirely possible for a single human to have male and female cells, phenomena termed mosaicism (if the cells are from the same, single zygote) or chimerism (results from fusion of at least two zygotes).

 

Even if you adhere to the idea the male and female are not spectra and are instead set in stone, intersex most certainly is a spectrum simply because of the wide range of traits intersex can create.

 

Edited to add/for clarification.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Infinis

[Dracowyn]

There are 2 genders in every species in the entire planet

Technically speaking, aside from the fact that other people already pointed out there's people who have the XXY chromosome, this isn't true. Some species only have one gender. There's species that have only females (like the majority of the aphid species) whose offspring are identical to them. And there's species that consists of only hermaphrodites like snails a lot of worm species and tardigrades.

 

So yeah, just wanted to point that out.

 

Anyways, for humans, biologically speaking there's only 3 genders, but since the first post and the title of this thread say it's about sexual orientation that doesn't matter cause there's a huge load of different orientations.

 

Either way, I'm heterosexual, never had any interest in other guys.

[Riverwillows]

If I may..?

 

I really don't get what the big deal is all about. Sexual preference is built into us when we are born, a mix of chemical and biological, in our brain makeup while in the womb. When you are a kid, you can't help what you are attracted to, i.e. crush on teacher, other kids, etc. It just happens. And when you are a kid, choice isn't an option, you just react. That solidifies when you hit puberty. You find attractive what you find attractive.

 

The ideal is drummed into by society. Especially religion. Which I also don't get either. Religious beliefs are about one's own spiritual health. A sense of an entity watching over you, protecting you, OR a lack of such a belief at all. It's completely and entirely personal. And also completely and separate from sexual preference. One is physical, one is spiritual.

 

And since the christian bible is what is practiced primarily in both the US and most of Europe, I'll use that as an example. NOWHERE in the christian bible does it say GOD/JESUS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SEXUAL ORIENTATION!! No, it doesn't.

 

The ONLY references are a couple of different individuals' own personal ideals.

Lovidicus is not a DIVINE mandate, but rather a SECULAR one, a set of laws written by rabbis for their own people. No where does it say in those laws that THIS IS WHAT GOD SAID.

 

And Paul. WHEW!! One of the biggest misogynists in the bible. He never saw Jesus, he came after, and not once in his entire gospel, does he say that JESUS OR GOD mandated this, it's basically his own personal opinion AND the current cultural ideal of the time.

 

Same with any of the other references in the bible. NOT ONE is said to be mandated by Jesus or God. In fact, Jesus never spoke about sexual orientation at all. Nope, he didn't.

 

So we can conclude from all this, that sexual orientation mores and norms are cultural, not biblical, and as such, should not be judged if someone is BORN WITH feelings and wants different than the norm. We are, as a species, bi-sexual in nature, it's cultural norms that influences us as children what to like and what not.

 

It doesn't change natural feelings tho. And yes, bi-sexuality is the norm in nature. Monkeys, apes, dolphins, any of the higher level intelligence animals have bi-sexual tendencies. It's a natural for them.

 

So, base sexual feelings are born into us, a result of chemical mixes that form in our brains before we are born.

 

Also, what confuses me, is that pretty much every culture, every religious ideal, tells us to love each other, celebrate our individual humanity, and to be generous, and selfless. Yet, based on our cultural upbringing, we condemn and vilify those whose sexual preferences are different than what we've been brought up against.

 

My child is transgender, (another thing that is also chemical and formed inside the womb - science has proved this) and while born with male parts, has a female-oriented brain. SHE is attracted to females, and to a lesser degree, males.

 

I don't see "boy" or "girl" when I look at my own child. I see a beautiful entity, who's personality, and individual being has not changed since they were born. I just want her to be happy. If she wants to change her appearance with plastic surgery, to fit what her brain says she is, so what? A vaginoplasty is really no different than a boob job, or butt tuck. Just a physical change. The person themself does not change.

 

Name change? Why not? She has to live with it, she should be comfortable with it. The person themself does not change.

 

I don't care who she brings home, as long as they love and respect each other, and make each other happy, to me that's all that counts.

 

We as a society are way too judgmental about things that really are not any of our business, and just be cause WE were brought up with it, doesn't make it right. The world is too big, too diverse. We should just be glad we are alive, and have each other, and if we were truly following a religious belief, be open-minded, and understanding.

 

Now, I realize that many are too wrapped up in their own cultural bias and what they've been taught all their lives, to be that humane. But, I had to try, anyway. I owe my daughter that.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Riverwillows

[Omen]

I've respected you for some time Riverwillows; seeing your post just jumped the level of respect I have for you up a few notches.

 

As a trans guy I struggle with identifying my own sexual orientation. I used to think I was somewhere on the really light grey side of asexuality but HRT and the libido spike that followed has muddied the waters somewhat. I'm still clueless if I'm demisexual, greysexual or asexual with sex positive leanings. I'm only aware that admire the masculine physique, but I'm not sure if that because that's what I want my body to look like, or because it's something I find attractive on an aesthetic level. Might even be both... it probably is both. In meatspace I tell people I'm attracted to masculine people, but I don't know if I'd ever actually "do" anything with em. Heck, I run for the hills the moment someone hits on me online.

 

My mother's beliefs align somewhat similar to yours Riverwillows, but it means a lot to see it from another parent of a transgender child. I see too many stories of parents who think their kid is an abomination, it really does a lot for the internalised transphobia when you're realising that you're trans or gender noncomforming. I read so many stories where the happy ending involved cutting all ties to family that I, someone who only has family and a few online friends, had a rather nice mental meltdown that I never, ever want to experience again. Fortunately for me, all that anxiety was for naught. I only wish I had seen more happy stories, it would have made stuff less... dire prior to me building the courage to tell my family.

 

 

 

As for debate that was on the previous page, I'm of an opinion that sex is a spectrum. My country recognises that there aren't just "male" and "female" people and allows people to have an indeterminate sex/gender marker on their passport. Source: link. I myself don't have a passport, but it will be the method I use to adjust my birth certificate if gender affirmation is financially out of my reach down the track. Not that I want the organs there to begin with, I'm just against the principal of forcing trans or gender variant people into being sterilised to adjust their government identification to match their gender.

[AppleMango]

I've respected you for some time Riverwillows; seeing your post just jumped the level of respect I have for you up a few notches.

 

As a trans guy I struggle with identifying my own sexual orientation. I used to think I was somewhere on the really light grey side of asexuality but HRT and the libido spike that followed has muddied the waters somewhat. I'm still clueless if I'm demisexual, greysexual or asexual with sex positive leanings. I'm only aware that admire the masculine physique, but I'm not sure if that because that's what I want my body to look like, or because it's something I find attractive on an aesthetic level. Might even be both... it probably is both. In meatspace I tell people I'm attracted to masculine people, but I don't know if I'd ever actually "do" anything with em. Heck, I run for the hills the moment someone hits on me online.

 

My mother's beliefs align somewhat similar to yours Riverwillows, but it means a lot to see it from another parent of a transgender child. I see too many stories of parents who think their kid is an abomination, it really does a lot for the internalised transphobia when you're realising that you're trans or gender noncomforming. I read so many stories where the happy ending involved cutting all ties to family that I, someone who only has family and a few online friends, had a rather nice mental meltdown that I never, ever want to experience again. Fortunately for me, all that anxiety was for naught. I only wish I had seen more happy stories, it would have made stuff less... dire prior to me building the courage to tell my family.

 

 

 

As for debate that was on the previous page, I'm of an opinion that sex is a spectrum. My country recognises that there aren't just "male" and "female" people and allows people to have an indeterminate sex/gender marker on their passport. Source: link. I myself don't have a passport, but it will be the method I use to adjust my birth certificate if gender affirmation is financially out of my reach down the track. Not that I want the organs there to begin with, I'm just against the principal of forcing trans or gender variant people into being sterilised to adjust their government identification to match their gender.

Have you heard of autochorissexual? Like I'm sure you've looked into it a lot, but I only found out about this the other day, so yeah.

You don't need to label yourself if you can't find one that fits you though. You are you, and if you know what you like, that's what is most important.

 

Also, what's annoying about parents that get so upset when they have a transgender child is the amount of them that probably answered the "Do you want a boy or a girl?" question with they wanted a healthy baby. Now their child has decided they are different to the parts they were born with at birth and suddenly they care >_>

I'm glad your parents are happy with you ^^ I know someone who is transgender and her parents don't approve. I don't think it's as bad as some people get, which is good, I just pretty much know when she lived at their house they took away all her make up and stuff like that. :/

[Riverwillows]

You don't need to label yourself if you can't find one that fits you though. You are you, and if you know what you like, that's what is most important.

 

Exactly this. Technically, my child is classified as a Transgender MtF, who is Bisexual.

 

To me, she's just....my daughter. Unique, loved, and herself. That's how it all really should be.

[Moonwick]

Don't want to add anything to the arguments of this post and I don't wish to be argued with, this is just a comment about myself,

hopefully that's okay I don't intend to interrupt at all.

 

I'm bigender and a lesbian.

 

I identify as genderless and a girl either at the same time or I change between them, for whatever reason I feel that it suits me and how I see myself.

 

Due to a medical condition I was born with and how it has affected my body's hormones, I am considered intersex, too.

 

P.S. Riverwillows, I want to say that I really respect you for your comments. I wish you were my parent instead of the abusive ones that I have.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Silverwinter

[Riverwillows]

I'd be honored if anyone here wanted to think of me as an adopted auntie or something. I can't tell anyone what to do but I can be a friend. Just know one thing:

 

You all are beautiful, and unique. You are worthwhile and special just as you are. I am happy that each one of you is here in this life. Just don't give up, ok? You are a valuable and wonderful entity.

 

And you'd have a sister in my daughter. She is renathystdream here on the forum. She is 27.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Riverwillows

[Txngo]

I'm nonbinary/agender, so add at least one more to that.

 

I actually really wouldn't put a number on how many genders/sexes there are, though. Aside from all the expressions of gender (demi, nano, fluid, queer, bi), there are also genders such as third-spirit (a native gender) which don't really fall anywhere on our European spectrum. ^^

There are 2 sexes and multiple genders

 

agender is a gender, not a sex

 

What don't you understand lmao

[Obscure_Trash]

There are 2 sexes and multiple genders

 

agender is a gender, not a sex

 

What don't you understand lmao

Interesting that you find me, who has been really kind and helpful in providing you sources, funny when you haven't been able to provide a single source for any of your claims, nor have you actually resonded to anybody who has provided you a wealth of knowledge on which to expand your mind with except to say that you disagree, which, by the way, is not proof we are wrong. I have to wonder what your purpose in posting in this thread is. I would be happy to go find you explanations and sources on why gender and sex are the same thing, but I am not sure what the point would be if you are not actually interested in discussing any of this. So if you wish to continue quoting all my posts and letting me know that you disagree "lol", then by all means, go right ahead. Just know that it is going to start to get spammy, and to help counter that, that I am happy to start holding a discussion whenever you are. =)

[Txngo]

Interesting that you find me, who has been really kind and helpful in providing you sources, funny when you haven't been able to provide a single source for any of your claims, nor have you actually resonded to anybody who has provided you a wealth of knowledge on which to expand your mind with except to say that you disagree, which, by the way, is not proof we are wrong. I have to wonder what your purpose in posting in this thread is. I would be happy to go find you explanations and sources on why gender and sex are the same thing, but I am not sure what the point would be if you are not actually interested in discussing any of this. So if you wish to continue quoting all my posts and letting me know that you disagree "lol", then by all means, go right ahead. Just know that it is going to start to get spammy, and to help counter that, that I am happy to start holding a discussion whenever you are. =)

Here's about 73 million sources you can read yourself link

 

Not even the feminists and tumblrists believe that gender and sex are the same thing

[Kith]

So how is intersex not a sex, then? >..>

[Riverwillows]

Here's about 73 million sources you can read yourself link

 

Not even the feminists and tumblrists believe that gender and sex are the same thing

Uh...I consider myself a feminist and you already have my 2 cents on this.

 

Don't bundle everyone in one lump hon. I know plenty of people who classify themselves as feminists, and think like me too.

 

What I'm seeing, is that (to pharaphrase Socky), you have an OPINION against the PROOF we have shown you.

 

An opinion is not a truth. You are entitled to your opinion, yes, but that does not make you right.

 

And your opinion that YOU are right, does not make us wrong either.

[Obscure_Trash]

Here's about 73 million sources you can read yourself link

 

Not even the feminists and tumblrists believe that gender and sex are the same thing

https://androgyneity.wordpress.com/2015/12/...t-bear-with-me/

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/post/92072...ender-and-it-is

http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/4113389...ocial-construct

 

Yay, critical analysis of the world we live in.

 

Please explain to me why there being a strict definition of two and only two genders/sexes is so important to you. It is important to me that there is not because the gender binary is harmful to everyone.

[Vrack]

Here're my two cents:

 

Gender is as much a social construct as races are. While they're usually how people define themselves it's not the most important part of them. Sure it's how people perceive them on the outside but we're all (hopefully) smart enough to realize that the outside is just that, the outside. A person's mind is what matters above all else.

 

People might look at me and assume that I'm a cis white male who has all the privilege in the world. That's their opinion of me and they're entitled to that. But that doesn't make them right. That doesn't mean that I'm suddenly a cis white male just like they think. I'm what I know I am; myself. I may not have a word that defines myself as cleanly as everyone else can. But that doesn't matter.

 

As much as people will say that science proves "such-n-such". An equal amount will claim the opposite with equal or greater force and evidence. That's not what defines you. Either side could make their arguments until the sun goes down and the stars come up but that won't change the fact that the only person who defines you is you.

 

People might say to you that you're using a word wrong. Or that, based on your description, you're actually XXXual or XXXromantic or XXXgender. That's fine. I'm not saying that that's bad or incorrect. I'm just saying that no matter what anyone else says; you have the final say in how you identify. That's not a privilege to be taken away when someone thinks you're wrong or you no longer deserve it. It's a basic human right; being able and allowed to define yourself without anyone forcing you into any one category or denying what your are.

 

Now Txngo, I realize that you might not see things my way. You might believe something completely different from what I do; as is your right. But who are you to tell me or anyone else that how they define theirself is wrong? Who are you to act like you and only you can be right? What gives you the right to deny everyone else's?

 

 

But of course what we're really arguing is semantics; the most futile and idiotic argument anyone can get into. Every single part of semantics is opinion. Even if someone claims that they have the "correct" terms to define everything there'll always be arguments and insistence that something isn't quite right. It just makes you wonder a little; does it really matter if you define sex and gender differently than other people? Why would that affect you or them?

 

The only reason this argument/debate-thing started is because you decided that you couldn't deal with being told that other people believe differently than you. You insist that gender and sex aren't the same thing while others try and show that you could be wrong. Do you accept it or even try to make a compromise? No.

-----

I'm done arguing. I think I made my point somewhere in the mess that is this post: People can have different definitions for things; deal with it and try and be nice to each other while you argue about it. But never ever force someone into a category or definition that they don't agree with.

If I came across as mean or insensitive in the post just know that I meant it to sound sincere and heartfelt. I'm not really good at communicating emotion.

[renathystdream]

just a simple message to xTango:

 

um hello, I just wanted to try to maybe clarify some things from the first dicussion, about assexuality, which if it helps you, you can use the term "nonsexual", that's up to you.

 

One of your main arguments was about masturbation, but that can be easily explained through brain chemistry. One possible answer to why they feel little to no sexual attraction to anything, could be that the signals in their brains are crossed or not there. But why masturbate? Pleasure. I'm sure you know this anyway, but I'll state for others reading. Dopamine, the main chemical for our "reward center" and in biological essence the cause of most if not all pleasure, is used, just as stated, for everything pleasurable from eating good food, to watching shows, reading, videogames, and more importantly to this, masturbation. We, of course, associated it to sexual gratification, but that is actually, well, "all in our head," as in it's only because we mentally associate it with that, but what gives it pleasure is actually independent of it. As long as there is stimuli, our bodies will respond, and it will "feel good."

 

So my suggestion to you, is those that our not inclined to sexuality can still feel the act of "self love" as pleasurable yet have nothing to do with it's usual connections to sex. Of course, intellectually they would know, but it wouldn't have that same nuance. And, why not do it? Even they are still human, just as "addicted" to dopamine like the rest of us.

 

as for the sex/gender thing, I know you are going for the strict biological definition of sex, XX and XY, of course there are casses of XXY, XXX, XYY, etc. but I'm here actually to help you in stated it clearly this is what you are mean in sex and gender being different. I myself have no opinion on if there is more than two biological sexes, though the examples I posted above, maybe a case for their being more, but nothing I prefer to wait for science for a definitive answer, which I don't think there is one just yet.

 

P.S. on a more personal note: The misunderstanding from others, I think, is less of them having any lack of knowledge and much more on, well, your general antagonistic attitude, you may not mean that, but it's how you come across and can affect how well you are understood.

 

EDIT: (Txango, sorry for getting it wrong)

Edited January 25, 2016 by renathystdream

[DangerDragon]

I was wrong.

 

There are many genders and 3 sexes.

Male, intersex, female.

 

Now I think I got it.

 

Sex is biological, gender is social.

Edited January 25, 2016 by DangerDragon

[Txngo]

https://androgyneity.wordpress.com/2015/12/...t-bear-with-me/

http://askanonbinary.tumblr.com/post/92072...ender-and-it-is

http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/4113389...ocial-construct

 

Yay, critical analysis of the world we live in.

 

Please explain to me why there being a strict definition of two and only two genders/sexes is so important to you. It is important to me that there is not because the gender binary is harmful to everyone.

"Please explain to me why there being a strict definition of two and only two genders/sexes is so important to you. It is important to me that there is not because the gender binary is harmful to everyone."

 

The gender binary, that has nothing to do with sex

 

You are using tumblr articles as academic sources instead of sources from scientists who actually to tests and don't come up with things based on their feelings

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

http://study.com/academy/lesson/sex-and-ge...cteristics.html

https://www.boundless.com/psychology/textbo...lity-294-12829/

 

This is biological fact and tumblr articles aren't going to change that

[Txngo]

Uh...I consider myself a feminist and you already have my 2 cents on this.

 

Don't bundle everyone in one lump hon. I know plenty of people who classify themselves as feminists, and think like me too.

 

What I'm seeing, is that (to pharaphrase Socky), you have an OPINION against the PROOF we have shown you.

 

An opinion is not a truth. You are entitled to your opinion, yes, but that does not make you right.

 

And your opinion that YOU are right, does not make us wrong either.

You have not shown me proof

 

Open a damn biology textbook

 

Or just do a simple google search my god it's not that hard to understand

 

It's not my opinion at all

 

Gender is different than sex

[pudding]

Gender is different than sex but you'd still be wrong saying there is just two. You need to understand that female and male are not really terms that describe EVERY sex out there, just the two most common ones.

 

Humans are one of the creatures whose sex is determined by the XY sex-determination system. This means that during development, the default is female. However, the Y chromosome activates, causing a pathway towards male traits in males. This is why males have nipples even though they have no functional use for them.

 

HOWEVER

 

Humans can have chromosomes that do not match their phenotypical sex. Examples include XX males, XY females and abnormal numbers of sex chromosomes like triple X syndrome, XYY syndrome, XXYY syndrome, etc. These can cause various phenotypical appearances that may not align with just one of the two most common sexes.

 

 

Want proof? Why don't you "open a damn biology textbook" or step aside and let someone who has actually studied this comment. Your opinion about two sexes is unfounded using your own examples. Genotypically and phenotypically, there are more than two sexes. If anything, sex is more of a spectrum than anything else based on male traits and female traits.

Edited January 25, 2016 by pudding

[Stromboli]

"Please explain to me why there being a strict definition of two and only two genders/sexes is so important to you. It is important to me that there is not because the gender binary is harmful to everyone."

 

The gender binary, that has nothing to do with sex

 

You are using tumblr articles as academic sources instead of sources from scientists who actually to tests and don't come up with things based on their feelings

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

http://study.com/academy/lesson/sex-and-ge...cteristics.html

https://www.boundless.com/psychology/textbo...lity-294-12829/

 

This is biological fact and tumblr articles aren't going to change that

I do find it interesting that you continue to insist that "There are 2 sexes" when two of the sources you chose talk about how intersex individuals are a third, less common variation of biological/physical sex.

 

Also, you brought tumblr into the discussion? You said "Not even the feminists and tumblrists believe that gender and sex are the same thing" so Sock provided you examples of tumblr users who have argued otherwise.

Like, you brought it up. Not too many people are doing peer-reviewed studies on tumblr users' opinions, so going to the source (actual tumblr users) was pretty effective?

[Lady_Lunevis]

Open a damn biology textbook

 

our society is constantly changing--textbooks, though informational, are expected to contain outdated data.

 

it's important to remember that, while school and education is important, nothing is ever one-hundred-percent absolute.

 

think of the contrast between the educational system even fifty years ago to ours today. you can't rely on textbooks as your only source to back up your opinions.

 

opinions, not fact.

 

 

@Riverwillows - your support & acceptance towards your daughter is amazing! please don't take offense to me suddenly spotlighting you or anything; that wasn't my intention! i didn't have anything else to say, just that i wished more parents were like you and that is 100% awesome. c:

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lady_Lunevis